Abundant Ammunition:
When cast on a container such as a quiver or a pouch that contains nonmagical ammunition or shuriken (including masterwork ammunition or shuriken), at the start of each round this spell replaces any ammunition taken from the container the round before.
Repeating Crossbow:
Loading a new case of 5 bolts is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
Abundant Ammunition lists a quiver or a pouch as examples, but doesn't state that it is limited to these forms. The spell simply replaces used ammunition from the ammunition container. In the case of a repeating crossbow, the ammunition container is the case containing the bolts. Ergo... wouldn't casting Abundant Ammunition on a single repeating crossbow case allow you to continue firing it without needing to change the case for the duration of the spell? The spell replaces all ammunition taken during the previous round, so even a character that fires all 5 shots should have a fully reloaded case by his next turn...
Seems like it, modulo he doesn't surpass the max number of bolts in the case.
wouldn't casting Abundant Ammunition on a single repeating crossbow case allow you to continue firing it without needing to change the case for the duration of the spell?
I think it would replenish the case, not the bow.
"The repeating crossbow (whether heavy or light) holds 5 crossbow bolts. As long as it holds bolts, you can reload it by pulling the reloading lever (a free action). Loading a new case of 5 bolts is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity."
Don't think of the bolt case as a removable magazine, think of it as a clip which reloads a fixed magazine.
The case is full of bolts. You load those bolts into the crossbow. The case is now empty. Magic fills the case with 5 more bolts. Once you've fired the bolts in your crossbow, you can use the case to reload it.
Don't think of the bolt case as a removable magazine, think of it as a clip which reloads a fixed magazine.The case is full of bolts. You load those bolts into the crossbow. The case is now empty. Magic fills the case with 5 more bolts. Once you've fired the bolts in your crossbow, you can use the case to reload it.
I could almost see it functioning as either a clip or a magazine, but since the description says that you are "loading a new case" and not "loading bolts from a case", I'm going to have to disagree with the clip theory.
I could almost see it functioning as either a clip or a magazine, but since the description says that you are "loading a new case" and not "loading bolts from a case", I'm going to have to disagree with the clip theory.
The first two sentences only mention the crossbow. The crossbow holds five bolts. As long as the crossbow is holding bolts, reload is free.
While you're reading the last sentence as loading the entire case into the crossbow, it could also mean that you're loading a cases worth of bolts into the crossbow. The latter makes more sense given that the crossbow holds five bolts, rather than the crossbow holds one case. Drinking a mug of beer doesn't involve consuming the actual pewter cup. (Unless you're a Dwarf)
Abundant Ammunition doesn't reload crossbows, or firearms, or that thing that throws splash weapons. Why would it grant one weapon an additional effect that can't even be obtained with a feat?
I was reading the description to mean that...
"loading a new case of bolts" meant attaching a case that has been pre-loaded with bolts to the crossbow and it feeds up (removable magazine idea)
"holds 5 bolts"; once the case is attached it is essentially part of the weapon, so the crossbow holds 5 bolts
Abundant Ammunition doesn't reload crossbows, or firearms, or that thing that throws splash weapons. Why would it grant one weapon an additional effect that can't even be obtained with a feat?
From the way I was viewing it, it just so happens that a repeating crossbow's ammunition feed is also its ammunition "pouch". The spell isn't actually reloading the crossbow per-say, it's replenishing the ammunition source that the crossbow loads from. This is only true if a repeating crossbow case is the equivalent of a quiver for a bow.
Of course, now you've made me re-think this a bit and possibly view the repeating crossbow as a fixed magazine rifle (i.e. Garand).
So then I guess the question is... is a repeating crossbow ammo "case" a clip that is loaded into a fixed bolt-storage compartment of the bow, or is it a removable magazine that attaches to the bow and feeds to the firing mechanism?
So then I guess the question is... is a repeating crossbow ammo "case" a clip that is loaded into a fixed bolt-storage compartment of the bow, or is it a removable magazine that attaches to the bow and feeds to the firing mechanism?
For the Garand style clip, the crossbow would have to hold not only the five bolts, but the case itself. Personally, I think it should work more like the SKS, where the clip(case) just facilitates loading the cartridges(bolts) into the magazine(crossbow).
However it works, I think the intent is not that the spell removes the need to do [whatever] every five shots.
However it works, I think the intent is not that the spell removes the need to do [whatever] every five shots.
Although not the original intent, I was hoping to have found a way to add some flavor to a character without crippling their combat capabilities by using a crossbow >.>
Abundant Ammunition doesn't reload crossbows, or firearms, or that thing that throws splash weapons.
I get the feeling that you don't mean a catapult, so I'm gonna guess you're thinking of a sling.
It would if you built the spell into a speed loader for revolvers. Or you can build multiple speed loaders into a specialized bandolier, and load them with different types of cartridges (providing you're using various types of ammo.)
Grick, can you point me to where it says that the spell would not work on a revolver?
I don't think of a chamber (or a barrel, for non-advanced firearms) as being a "container such as a quiver or a pouch."
Next up: Is the cup of a catapult a container? Free siege arm reloads!
wouldn't casting Abundant Ammunition on a single repeating crossbow case allow you to continue firing it without needing to change the case for the duration of the spell?I think it would replenish the case, not the bow.
"The repeating crossbow (whether heavy or light) holds 5 crossbow bolts. As long as it holds bolts, you can reload it by pulling the reloading lever (a free action). Loading a new case of 5 bolts is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity."
Don't think of the bolt case as a removable magazine, think of it as a clip which reloads a fixed magazine.
The case is full of bolts. You load those bolts into the crossbow. The case is now empty. Magic fills the case with 5 more bolts. Once you've fired the bolts in your crossbow, you can use the case to reload it.
I respectfully disagree with this assessment.
When loading one of these, the bolts don't leave the case and enter a cavity within the weapon, the case sits atop the crossbow and gravity feeds the next round onto the weapon when the lever is activated, if you remove the case during this time, there is no ammunition in the weapon.
Then we'll spin up the next iteration of repeating crossbow.. Belt feed. Witness the Reaper Minature Flying the Hard Cold Wind to Vahalla for reference (white dragon with a basket slung underneath, with two dwarven crossbow for a belt feed.) Add Abundant Ammunition, and bolt resupply is easy.
I have no idea if the spell is supposed to, but I think it should. What is the worst that could happen, for a feat on exotic weapon proficiency (barring inquisitor) and use of a spell, a character manages to use a concept that is otherwise mostly unsupported by the rules and is not overpowered?
Also, it takes the same action (free action) to pull back the lever to load a bolt from the case into the xbow to fire it that it does to pull an arrow from a quiver to place in a bow. Seems reasonable, and xbow's need loving to.
+1
When loading one of these, the bolts don't leave the case and enter a cavity within the weapon, the case sits atop the crossbow and gravity feeds the next round onto the weapon when the lever is activated, if you remove the case during this time, there is no ammunition in the weapon.
If this was the case, then the repeating crossbow would not hold five bolts, it would hold one bolt.
If the spell was meant to auto-load a repeating crossbow, why not eliminate the 'container' part and have it just auto-load whatever weapon it's cast on? So normal crossbows gain almost the same benefit.
The major thing is that since the "container" that contains ammo for the reloading crossbow sits on top & essentially feeds into the weapon via gravity
The rules don't say this. They say the crossbow holds five bolts.
Think of it like a regular gun clip we have now, if this spell were cast on a clip, then after every shot a bullet would magically be created at the bottom of the clip & refilled inside the clip allowing for essentially infinite ammo.
Only for clips which are inserted and kept inside the magazine until empty (like the Garand). Since we have no evidence from the rules that the repeating crossbow holds not only five bolts but also a case, then we have no reason to think it works the same way. Inserting a cases worth of bolts into the crossbow fits with what the rules say and doesn't cause a 1st-level spell to turn it into cheese.
Given that a standard (composite or otherwise) longbow archer is going to be getting more shots than the crossbow character--and with things getting worse for said crossbow character along the way--is this really something that could be classed as cheese? It strikes me as a way for the crossbow to have a little extra oomph and take some of the headache out of the character build. Besides, it is a spell that mimics a feat: Rapid Reload (Light Crossbow) and it does so for a relatively short time. I am not impressed with this spell enough to see it as cheese.
Given that a standard (composite or otherwise) longbow archer is going to be getting more shots than the crossbow character--and with things getting worse for said crossbow character along the way--is this really something that could be classed as cheese?
If the intent is to balance crossbows with bows, why not have the free reload apply to all crossbows, not just the repeating ones?
Besides, it is a spell that mimics a feat: Rapid Reload (Light Crossbow) and it does so for a relatively short time.
Repeating Crossbow is not a valid choice for Rapid Reload. There is no feat I can find that reduces the time needed to load a case of bolts.
Every time the rules mention loading, you're loading a new case, not from a case. I would take that to mean the crossbow uses a detachable case.
The other option is that you're paying the same money for a smaller case of bolts so you can dump the contents of an entire case into the crossbow. That doesn't make nearly as much sense to me.
It really doesn't matter either way. The only difference is whether you use abundant ammunition or reloading hands.
Every time the rules mention loading, you're loading a new case, not from a case.
"The repeating crossbow (whether heavy or light) holds 5 crossbow bolts. As long as it holds bolts, you can reload it by pulling the reloading lever (a free action). Loading a new case of 5 bolts is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity."
The second sentence in the description refers to loading a new bolt by pulling the lever as a free action.
This is not the same as the third sentence in which it refers to loading a new case of 5 bolts as a full-round action.
I would take that to mean the crossbow uses a detachable case.
Are you saying you load the case as well as the bolts it contains into the crossbow? Or that you attach the case and the crossbow doesn't actually hold five bolts?
The other option is that you're paying the same money for a smaller case of bolts so you can dump the contents of an entire case into the crossbow. That doesn't make nearly as much sense to me.
Loading five bolts from a regular quiver into the crossbow would probably be much slower than loading five bolts from a specially designed repeater case. Makes sense to me.
It really doesn't matter either way. The only difference is whether you use abundant ammunition or reloading hands.
If the case is inserted into the crossbow and remains there until empty, then abundant ammunition would replenish the bolts with no need to ever load a new case into the crossbow while the spell is active.
If the case is not inserted into the crossbow, but instead is used to load the bolts themselves into the crossbow, then the spell works like it does for every other ranged weapon in the game: free ammo but not free reloads.
Here's another question: would the spell be allowed on a revolver's barrel ?
Here's another question: would the spell be allowed on a revolver's barrel ?
You probably mean the cylinder, not that barrel, right? The cylinder is part of the weapon and isn't removable (except for cleaning purposes), ammunition would be stored in an ammo belt, which is what you would cast the spell on. So no, I don't think the cylinder would be a valid target.
On a side note - due to the wording of Crossbow Mastery you can actually reload a Repeating Crossbow as a free action. You just need to be high proficient with another crossbow to get it.
Crossbow Mastery (Combat)
You can load crossbows with blinding speed and even fire them in melee with little fear of reprisal.
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot.
Benefit: The time required for you to reload any type of crossbow is reduced to a free action, regardless of the type of crossbow used. You can fire a crossbow as many times in a full attack action as you could attack if you were using a bow. Reloading a crossbow for the type of crossbow you chose when you took Rapid Reload no longer provokes attacks of opportunity.
Special: Starting at 6th level, a ranger with the archery combat style may select Crossbow Mastery as a combat style feat.
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Here's another question: would the spell be allowed on a revolver's barrel ?You probably mean the cylinder, not that barrel, right? The cylinder is part of the weapon and isn't removable (except for cleaning purposes), ammunition would be stored in an ammo belt, which is what you would cast the spell on. So no, I don't think the cylinder would be a valid target.
Actually some caps and ball revolver had removable cylinders and you could remove it and insert a new, fully loaded cylinder to recharge the weapon. So, for some weapon, the cylinder is a magazine.
Actually some caps and ball revolver had removable cylinders and you could remove it and insert a new, fully loaded cylinder to recharge the weapon. So, for some weapon, the cylinder is a magazine.
My knowledge on black powder has clearly been 1-upped...
In that case, the cylinder would have to be considered the ammunition storage device targeted by the spell. That is, unless you wanted to have the storage pouch be the spell's target and have the magic refresh the fully-loaded cylinders every round (this would be an interesting idea, fire all rounds from the cylinder and the entire cylinder disappears)...Hm...
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Actually some caps and ball revolver had removable cylinders and you could remove it and insert a new, fully loaded cylinder to recharge the weapon. So, for some weapon, the cylinder is a magazine.
My knowledge on black powder has clearly been 1-upped...
In that case, the cylinder would have to be considered the ammunition storage device targeted by the spell. That is, unless you wanted to have the storage pouch be the spell's target and have the magic refresh the fully-loaded cylinders every round (this would be an interesting idea, fire all rounds from the cylinder and the entire cylinder disappears)...Hm...
You would have to empty the cylinder in one round since the spell says:
The ammunition taken from the container the round before vanishes.
"The repeating crossbow (whether heavy or light) holds 5 crossbow bolts. As long as it holds bolts, you can reload it by pulling the reloading lever (a free action). Loading a new case of 5 bolts is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity."
The second sentence in the description refers to loading a new bolt by pulling the lever as a free action.
This is not the same as the third sentence in which it refers to loading a new case of 5 bolts as a full-round action.
I was referring to "you must use two hands to load a new case of bolts.", and "Loading a new case of 5 bolts..." You could argue you're loading a case, not bolts from a case.
Are you saying you load the case as well as the bolts it contains into the crossbow? Or that you attach the case and the crossbow doesn't actually hold five bolts?
I think you attach the new case on top. It doesn't conflict with the verbiage either. Hold doesn't necessarily mean that the bolts are inside. A case on top of the crossbow is definitely still the crossbow holding 5 bolts.
Loading five bolts from a regular quiver into the crossbow would probably be much slower than loading five bolts from a specially designed repeater case. Makes sense to me.
This is true, but if you're going to the trouble to specially design a case, why not make it in such a way that you load the case with the bolts?
If the case is inserted into the crossbow and remains there until empty, then abundant ammunition would replenish the bolts with no need to ever load a new case into the crossbow while the spell is active.
If the case is not inserted into the crossbow, but instead is used to load the bolts themselves into the crossbow, then the spell works like it does for every other ranged weapon in the game: free ammo but not free reloads.
If it works the first way, you use abundant ammunition. If it works the second way, you use reloading hands to reload it every round. Either way you get free reloads.
If the intent is to balance crossbows with bows, why not have the free reload apply to all crossbows, not just the repeating ones?
The intent is not to balance crossbows. I am just pointing out that this use of the spell does not really qualify as cheese. It would be more efficient to just get the Rapid Reload feat for your crossbow of choice or use a bow in the first place.
Repeating Crossbow is not a valid choice for Rapid Reload. There is no feat I can find that reduces the time needed to load a case of bolts.
That would be because, once you have Rapid Reload (Light Crossbows), there would be no need for the Repeating Crossbow. Reloading would be a free action at that point so it is not worth struggling with the clip system. My point was that, if a player really wants to go ahead and cast this spell on the Repeating Crossbow rather than getting the feat, it really isn't going to hurt anything.