except for the fact that you are completely wrong, in that the balor can use minnions to create patches of mist between himself and the enemy archers. why would you ASSUME he would have it on him? obscuring mist is a line of sight break. now lets assume you wernt foolish enough to take my inane situation as a literal scenario and change obscuring mist to deeper darkness.
now as you stated "Also obscuring mists is just as much a problem for the melee character as it is for the archer", which is wrong, lets assume a melee fighter willing to follow a balor, has tremor sense, blind sense/sight these would still allow the melee to fight someone. you still need line of sight to attack the balor without "guessing" as to which square to attack with seeking or improved precise when using a ranged weapon. tyhe fighter can still chase the balor until they get there pounce, while the pure archer is sitting back yawning.
You assume that somehow the minions are going to be able to keep obscuring mist between the balor and the archer -- how cute, good luck with that.
Also melee fighter with tremor sense, blind sense or sight? These are not regular abilities and the fighter generally doesn't have a means of getting them -- he's not exactly sitting on a huge swath of archetypes or racial abilities that grant them, and even then the archer can do the exact same thing since he can attack without provoking, and you can't charge what you can't see (tremor sense and blind sense don't help with that) meaning you can't pounce it either.
Indeed if needed the archer can just as easily close to melee range and keep shooting whereas the meleer doesn't have an option to sit back and deal his damage.
Sure the meleer might open up a charge line and get pounce... but by the same token you have to agree that the archer will be able to move around and open up his line for a full attack too.
Otherwise we just have a new version of "given infinite room and preparation with all the equipment he wants the wizard can kill the stupid fighter who of course has nothing and can't do anything" which is patently false.
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Otherwise we just have a new version of "given infinite room and preparation with all the...
funny that seems to be your arguement to the initial post. i stated a fact and instead of saying "yes that true" you said BUT IN THIS SITUATION!!!
my point, in my origional post, was that line of sight is a liabilty for an archer. and instead of getting the facetiousness of my last statement you tried to digress the thread to disprove my joke.
how about "what you said is true sidekick, i dont like it but its true"
and you stop trying to win the conversation?
funny that seems to be your arguement to the initial post. i stated a fact and instead of saying "yes that true" you said BUT IN THIS SITUATION!!!
my point, in my origional post, was that line of sight is a liabilty for an archer. and instead of getting the facetiousness of my last statement you tried to digress the thread to disprove my joke.
how about "what you said is true sidekick, i dont like it but its true"
and you stop trying to win the conversation?
Line of sight is a limitation for both so it's not like it's only a problem for the archer. The meleer still has to know which direction to attack -- he still has to be in range to attack and he still has to deal with all the problems that attacking without line of sight brings.
You are arguing that somehow the meleer is going to have special senses that the archer will not have and that he will somehow still always be able to close.
That's more than a little inane on your behalf.
Also I am taking you seriously -- and your position isn't a very strong one as it relies specifically on finding special abilities, creatures acting differently for one than they would the other and ignoring the fact that what the meleer has the archer can just as easily have and use to the same effect, while also miss using the rules for charging in at least part of your case (when using tremor sense or blind sense).
It isn't a problem limited only to this situation but to all such situations -- the meleer doesn't have some special advantage that somehow will let him ignore these problems.
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alright this will be my last post, im not going to continue arguing for the sake of arguing.
first i had corrected my post before you counter posted taking pounce out of the equation, realizing that it would cause digression in the discussion.
second line of sight is not necessary for a melee character to fight, but it is with a ranged character, with the exception of aoe spells and abilities. i can play a blind melee character to some degree of sucess, while anything that blocks sight, including blindness, makes an archer COMPLETELY worthless. this is TRUE and all other posts besides my initial post is irrelivent to this thread so im going to stop digressing the thread.
in conclusion a character with obscuring mist will stop an archer in its tracks, the easiest way to get around this is to be a switch hitter.
Unless of course the archer does what the meleer does and simply closes and shoots at point blank range -- which he can easily do.
Obscuring mist doesn't stop him at all -- just like the meleer it simply makes things a bit more difficult.
Darkness has more potential to slow him down and even then... how is your meleer choosing the right square all the time in the case of total darkness?
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Ignoring the fact that obscuring mist can't be cast directly on the balor meaning that he's going to be exposed regardless (more on this later):
Also obscuring mists is just as much a problem for the melee character as it is for the archer. It will prevent the AoO from the melee character as the balor simply steps away and then he's stuck trying to find the monster in the 20 foot radius cloud.
However even then the Balor has problems has his own flame body burns away the obscuring mist. If centered on him (somehow) then he has exactly 5 feet between him and the edge of the spell left after he burns away the adjacent mist meaning he's only getting a 20% concealment.
except for the fact that you are completely wrong, in that the balor can use minnions to create patches of mist between himself and the enemy archers. why would you ASSUME he would have it on him? obscuring mist is a line of sight break. now lets assume you wernt foolish enough to take my inane situation as a literal scenario and change obscuring mist to deeper darkness.
now as you stated "Also obscuring mists is just as much a problem for the melee character as it is for the archer", which is wrong, lets assume a melee fighter willing to follow a balor, has tremor sense, blind sense/sight these would still allow the melee to fight someone. you still need line of sight to attack the balor without "guessing" as to which square to attack with seeking or improved precise when using a ranged weapon. the melee can still chase the balor and get to attack, while the pure archer is sitting back yawning.
Seeking. Target any space the balor is in. ???. Profit.
Hah! I forgot to apply modifications for Point Blanks Shot in my calculations above. Damage should be just a tad higher. :D
As for obscuring mist and the like, that's not much of a hassle if the creature hiding in it is really big. Just shoot towards the central mass. You might even get to ignore the miss chance thanks to Improved Precise Shot. After each shot, just listen for the satisfying thunk of an arrow driving itself into flesh (or scale or whatever). If the creature is huge, and the cloud is a 20-foot radius, you are probably going to land a few arrows each round even if it dances around within the cloud (it's dance area being much smaller if it stays away from the outside edges).
Go ahead you big yucky monster. Stay way over their in that cloud while I kill you with impunity.
Hey, dork, in your DPR tests, how come the archer does 196 damage to the creature that has dr 20/-, and 183 to the creature that has no DR?
Sounds kind of fishy to me...
==Aelryinth
Unless of course the archer does what the meleer does and simply closes and shoots at point blank range -- which he can easily do.
Obscuring mist doesn't stop him at all -- just like the meleer it simply makes things a bit more difficult.
Darkness has more potential to slow him down and even then... how is your meleer choosing the right square all the time in the case of total darkness?
How does the archer know what square the enemy is in? Beyond 5 ft, the mist does not permit visual detection. Perception check to hear, perhaps, but that's not necessarily reliable. Melee guy can just wade in there, moving at half speed, and seeing 5 ft ahead as he goes until he locates the bad guy.
What's the archer doing to locate him in there?
Of course, using fog cloud or any higher level cloud spell (since obscuring mist has to be centered on caster) offensively to put it around the archer and force him out towards waiting melee guys is more effective than just throwing up mist around yourself anyway.
Unless of course the archer does what the meleer does and simply closes and shoots at point blank range -- which he can easily do.
Obscuring mist doesn't stop him at all -- just like the meleer it simply makes things a bit more difficult.
Darkness has more potential to slow him down and even then... how is your meleer choosing the right square all the time in the case of total darkness?
How does the archer know what square the enemy is in? Beyond 5 ft, the mist does not permit visual detection. Perception check to hear, perhaps, but that's not necessarily reliable. Melee guy can just wade in there, moving at half speed, and seeing 5 ft ahead as he goes until he locates the bad guy.
What's the archer doing to locate him in there?
Again -- the exact same thing! There is nothing that prevents the archer from wading in and finding the guy then plugging him full of arrows. Nothing as shooting in melee isn't going to provoke due to point blank mastery, and he has a better chance for his shot to hit since he can have a seeking bow -- an enchantment that melee doesn't have an equivalent for.
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Obscuring mists would only hamper an archer who didn't have seeking bow, since it ignores the mischance. But as for sight, just get the goz mask I mentioned before, it allows you to see through mists, fogs, vapors and the like as if it were not there. Using that with the seeking bow, or even just that without the seeking ability, and your golden.
However, not every archer is going to have that kind of stuff. In that case, just move closer to the opponent till your next to them, (based on if they moved from the last time you saw them.
As for darkness/deeper darkness, heightened continual flame (I think) on an ioun stone, would negate that darkness, and for less than 100gp.
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Back on topic, besides what was mentioned about archer's, such as:
Lots of full attacks
Need little movement
Lots of synergy for their atk/dog
Range, range, range'
Amazing at bypassing, or minimalizing DR
.....they also provide:
Weapon versatility
Archer builds also benefit from the utilization of their weapon a lot better than other builds. For instance, if you didn't have the clustered shots feat, the only way for you to bypass the dear is one of 3 ways, which you can do normally are: getting a high enough enhancemement bones on your weapon with a +5 covering alignment/adamantine/silver/and cold iron, or get penetrating strike feat chain to ignore a certain amount of DR, or have the right ammunition type for the metal based DR and holy on your bow for evil DR. The last option, with regards to making cold iron, silver, or adamantine weapons, with also potential of an alignment on the bow or arrows, is the most common for archers. Not many classes, let alone builds, can swiftly change from one damage type to another so quickly, or within mid attack.
*Trick arrows- has got to be one of my favorite parts about an archer. Just using the patio books, no 3pp (kobolds quarterly is not 3pp), we get:
Silver, cold iron, Adamantine arrows
Blunted arrows
Whistling arrows
Smoke arrows
Obscuring mist arrow
Fog cloud arrow
Pheromone arrow (I love it)
Durable arrows (amazing)
Rain
Dye
Bleeding
Thistle
Splintercloud
Grappling hook
(there are some others, but these are the best ones that are non- magical)
.......
With all of these different types of arrows, besides the ones used for actual damage for combat, the there are very versatile. Including perhaps an adamantine durable arrow, which now never breaks when firing (certsin circumstances do) and bypasses hardness 20.
Expert combat strategists
Archers are also, depending on classes and build, amazing chasers and volley masters zen archers), CMB at range and volley of death with an area (archer archetype((fighter)), battlefield controllers (arcane archer, elderitch knight, ((maybe also archer archetype with the CMB at range, but it's limiting and short range, not ideal)), scout/spotter/lookout/trap dealer (ranger).
Walking tanks
@vermura i agree with your post 100% archers were the most tactically important troop of any army movement. archers are very awesome, but in this game they are not any more powerful then a melee character, certainly less powerful then casters (grrr), and have the weakness of line of sight as well as cover issues (shooting through allies squares).
Hey, dork, in your DPR tests, how come the archer does 196 damage to the creature that has dr 20/-, and 183 to the creature that has no DR?
Sounds kind of fishy to me...
==Aelryinth
I went back and adjusted some numbers to account for things that I forgot about. I probably just forgot to adjust ALL of them to suit.
@vermura i agree with your post 100% archers were the most tactically important troop of any army movement. archers are very awesome, but in this game they are not any more powerful then a melee character, certainly less powerful then casters (grrr), and have the weakness of line of sight as well as cover issues (shooting through allies squares).
I agree with you that they are not as powerful as casters, but as for melee combatants, it really depends on the melee build, and whether or not they are going for a damage build or not. As for the weakness of sight being cover, one of the most basic feats for any archer is precise shot followed up by imp. Precise shot, which ignores all but full cover. Line of sight can be remedied through magical means.
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Vermura, the situation you described does not sound to me to be a situation where the party failed because they didn't have an archery based party. That sounded more like a melee based party that had not prepared for dealing with attacks from flying ranged attackers. I see this a lot too. Melee based characters who can only fight in melee and are ineffective in ranged situations are a case of poor character implementation. Every party member should be able to provide a credible threat at range, or in melee, even if they are optimized for one or the other. Designing and playing characters who are useless in either scenario is just an open invitation for a GM to teach a badly needed lesson.
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The thing that gets me about archery is that archery is too deadly. I don't mind the players laying waste with archery, they are supposed the kill the bad guys. But I'm finding the bad guys are killing the players with archery. I mean encounters that if I swapped out the bows for swords are 10 times easier and less deadly.
I do like that I can put the fear into players with the idea of entering the bandit infested woods. They need to take extra precautions. My big issue though is the CR doesn't change when it's archery. As the GM I just at +1 CR to archery encounters if warranted. Not all archery encounters are deadly but some sure are.
The thing that gets me about archery is that archery is too deadly. I don't mind the players laying waste with archery, they are supposed the kill the bad guys. But I'm finding the bad guys are killing the players with archery. I mean encounters that if I swapped out the bows for swords are 10 times easier and less deadly.
I do like that I can put the fear into players with the idea of entering the bandit infested woods. They need to take extra precautions. My big issue though is the CR doesn't change when it's archery. As the GM I just at +1 CR to archery encounters if warranted. Not all archery encounters are deadly but some sure are.
an encounter against quite a few archers, is a lot of arrows, so high chance to confirm a x3 damage crit which may be curtains
archer enemeies are often more likely to ambush as they dont need to be as close to attack so are harder to percieve?
want to be attacked by 4 CR 3 ogres or surprised by 4 warr2/rog1/rang2?
Just another example of the value of spells like "obscuring mist". cast it and hide.
The thing that gets me about archery is that archery is too deadly. I don't mind the players laying waste with archery, they are supposed the kill the bad guys. But I'm finding the bad guys are killing the players with archery. I mean encounters that if I swapped out the bows for swords are 10 times easier and less deadly.
I do like that I can put the fear into players with the idea of entering the bandit infested woods. They need to take extra precautions. My big issue though is the CR doesn't change when it's archery. As the GM I just at +1 CR to archery encounters if warranted. Not all archery encounters are deadly but some sure are.
an encounter against quite a few archers, is a lot of arrows, so high chance to confirm a x3 damage crit which may be curtains
archer enemeies are often more likely to ambush as they dont need to be as close to attack so are harder to percieve?
want to be attacked by 4 CR 3 ogres or surprised by 4 warr2/rog1/rang2?
I'd take my chance with the Ogres every time. I've seen what appeared to really easy encounter turn out to using 90% of the parties resources. This why I don't use XP and just level people when I feel it's appropriate. Too many time I've had brutal drawn out fight for little exp and a BBEG taken out in 2 rounds with hardly scratch to the party that rewards then with a ton of XP. Like the King AP had lots of that.
I'd take my chance with the Ogres every time. I've seen what appeared to really easy encounter turn out to using 90% of the parties resources. This why I don't use XP and just level people when I feel it's appropriate. Too many time I've had brutal drawn out fight for little exp and a BBEG taken out in 2 rounds with hardly scratch to the party that rewards then with a ton of XP. Like the King AP had lots of that.The thing that gets me about archery is that archery is too deadly. I don't mind the players laying waste with archery, they are supposed the kill the bad guys. But I'm finding the bad guys are killing the players with archery. I mean encounters that if I swapped out the bows for swords are 10 times easier and less deadly.
I do like that I can put the fear into players with the idea of entering the bandit infested woods. They need to take extra precautions. My big issue though is the CR doesn't change when it's archery. As the GM I just at +1 CR to archery encounters if warranted. Not all archery encounters are deadly but some sure are.
an encounter against quite a few archers, is a lot of arrows, so high chance to confirm a x3 damage crit which may be curtains
archer enemeies are often more likely to ambush as they dont need to be as close to attack so are harder to percieve?
want to be attacked by 4 CR 3 ogres or surprised by 4 warr2/rog1/rang2?
4 CR 3 ogres. What our their resources? Maybe all wearing studded leather? 40 ft. speed. Weapons? They aren't proficient with their listed weapon but are with longspears. 2d6+7 with a 20 ft. reach. Dunno, that looks like a pretty scary fight to me. Ogres are faster than the party, bigger than the party, and can lock the entire party in their reach (for ogres with a 20 ft. reach each means moving around is a nightmare). If the ogres have Catch off Guard, they can thwack you with the shaft of their spear for 1d8+7. Did I mention flanking?
Arrows are bad, but silent image gives your entire party total concealment. Tiny hut gives total concealment to your party but no concealment to the enemy. Obscuring mist and a simple smoke-stick allow you to close the distance while enjoying total concealment (archers bugging you? Throw a smoke stick 50 ft. towards them and then move up). Cast entangle and wrap them up. Being entangled is a -2 to all attacks and -4 to Dex (net -4 to ranged attacks). Want to make them come to you? Move behind total cover. Traveling? Jump in or behind your wagon.
The biggest thing archery allows is focus firing. 10 NPCs vs 1 PC is a pretty good deal for the NPC, don'tcha know. :P
The biggest thing archery allows is focus firing. 10 NPCs vs 1 PC is a pretty good deal for the NPC, don'tcha know. :P
until they bust out a tower shield and walk casually to the archers MUHAHAHAHA!!!
until they bust out a tower shield and walk casually to the archers MUHAHAHAHA!!!The biggest thing archery allows is focus firing. 10 NPCs vs 1 PC is a pretty good deal for the NPC, don'tcha know. :P
Yeah. Heavy shields work pretty good too in a pinch. Against lots of low-level enemies (like goblins or kobolds perhaps), drawing your shield +2 AC and then using a total defense (+4 dodge to AC, standard action) nets you a +6 to AC over your armor. Martials easily sport a 18 AC at 1st level with only a 14 Dex before a shield. When your enemies only have a +4 or worse to hit, then you've hit 95% evasion. Probably good enough to close the gap.
Actually, archery builds suck from a teamwork standpoint. Sure, they deal out great damage, but what role do they fill?
A wizard is a controler, who can cast utility spells during times of non-combat, channel the foes down to one area so that the have to go thru the Tank, or unleash massive hurt. The archer? Can unleash massive hurt.
The Tank stops the foes from getting to the squishies, absorbs damage, and can unleash massive hurt. The archer? Can unleash massive hurt.
The skill-monkey can be invaluable during non combat with great skill rolls, disarming traps, finding loot, and often acting as a face when you REALLY need to get past that guard without killing him.... oh, and when he's lined up just right- unleash massive hurt. The archer? Can unleash massive hurt.
The Leader/healer can buff the party to a fair-thee well, doubling the effectiveness of the whole party, he can also heal everyone up, raise the dead, and oh yes- when buffed or with the right spells- unleash massive hurt. The archer? Can unleash massive hurt.
The archer can do just one thing. Really, he brings almost nothing to the party as a whole. Sure, he has the potential for unleashing massive hurt, but D&D is more than just killing the foe.
Actually, archery builds suck from a teamwork standpoint. Sure, they deal out great damage, but what role do they fill?
A wizard is a controler, who can cast utility spells during times of non-combat, channel the foes down to one area so that the have to go thru the Tank, or unleash massive hurt. The archer? Can unleash massive hurt.
The Tank stops the foes from getting to the squishies, absorbs damage, and can unleash massive hurt. The archer? Can unleash massive hurt.
The skill-monkey can be invaluable during non combat with great skill rolls, disarming traps, finding loot, and often acting as a face when you REALLY need to get past that guard without killing him.... oh, and when he's lined up just right- unleash massive hurt. The archer? Can unleash massive hurt.
The Leader/healer can buff the party to a fair-thee well, doubling the effectiveness of the whole party, he can also heal everyone up, raise the dead, and oh yes- when buffed or with the right spells- unleash massive hurt. The archer? Can unleash massive hurt.
The archer can do just one thing. Really, he brings almost nothing to the party as a whole. Sure, he has the potential for unleashing massive hurt, but D&D is more than just killing the foe.
A good archer is the DPS of the group. Either they bring so much DPS that they are valuable purely for their killing potential (such as an archery fighter), or they deal sustainable damage while being useful to the party (Rangers are a favorite here). Incidentally, archers can even be tanks if done right. Ranger archers are a bit of a favorite because of things like abundant ammunition and instant enemy and Rangers have enough out of combat use to be a great asset.
There's also that a sufficiently good archer puts pressure on enemies to either put a stop to their DPS or suffer the consequences; which is its own special style of tanking, because when you're a bad guy and have to decide between stopping the martial or the wizard you have a very bad day (the answer should always be the wizard, but archers can push enough pain that you may have to deal with them, giving the wizard leave to turn the whole world upside down).
EDIT: Incidentally, does that feat that lets you make AoOs with a ranged weapon combo with Combat Patrol? If so, that would be pretty sick.
Actually, archery builds suck from a teamwork standpoint. Sure, they deal out great damage, but what role do they fill?
A wizard is a controler, who can cast utility spells during times of non-combat, channel the foes down to one area so that the have to go thru the Tank, or unleash massive hurt. The archer? Can unleash massive hurt.
The Tank stops the foes from getting to the squishies, absorbs damage, and can unleash massive hurt. The archer? Can unleash massive hurt.
The skill-monkey can be invaluable during non combat with great skill rolls, disarming traps, finding loot, and often acting as a face when you REALLY need to get past that guard without killing him.... oh, and when he's lined up just right- unleash massive hurt. The archer? Can unleash massive hurt.
The Leader/healer can buff the party to a fair-thee well, doubling the effectiveness of the whole party, he can also heal everyone up, raise the dead, and oh yes- when buffed or with the right spells- unleash massive hurt. The archer? Can unleash massive hurt.
The archer can do just one thing. Really, he brings almost nothing to the party as a whole. Sure, he has the potential for unleashing massive hurt, but D&D is more than just killing the foe.
I find it hard to believe that this sort of comment is actually a serious contribution to the thread. It's almost a non-sequitur.
Archers are simply characters who are focused on doing ranged damage with a bow. Otherwise they can do or be anything the party needs. There is nothing stopping an archer from pumping up UMD and being a part-time caster. Many archers are also skill-monkeys themselves. I've even seen rogue archers. A ranger or paladin archer can even craft magic items.
How can you think that being an archer means you can't also do all of these other things?
Heck, my druid is the archer in our party, and when she's not archering, she's just, you know, a friggin' full-casting, wild-shaping, animal companion sporting druid.
Paladin Divine Hunter, turns everyone into an archer (if they're close enough) and I highly recommend it.
Still tastes like chicken. :)
archers are also by fast the best scouta out there. amazing perception, long range attack options, typically good at hiding.
Actually, archery builds suck from a teamwork standpoint. Sure, they deal out great damage, but what role do they fill?
A wizard is a controler, who can cast utility spells during times of non-combat, channel the foes down to one area so that the have to go thru the Tank, or unleash massive hurt. The archer? Can unleash massive hurt.
The Tank stops the foes from getting to the squishies, absorbs damage, and can unleash massive hurt. The archer? Can unleash massive hurt.
The skill-monkey can be invaluable during non combat with great skill rolls, disarming traps, finding loot, and often acting as a face when you REALLY need to get past that guard without killing him.... oh, and when he's lined up just right- unleash massive hurt. The archer? Can unleash massive hurt.
The Leader/healer can buff the party to a fair-thee well, doubling the effectiveness of the whole party, he can also heal everyone up, raise the dead, and oh yes- when buffed or with the right spells- unleash massive hurt. The archer? Can unleash massive hurt.
The archer can do just one thing. Really, he brings almost nothing to the party as a whole. Sure, he has the potential for unleashing massive hurt, but D&D is more than just killing the foe.
I find it hard to believe that this sort of comment is actually a serious contribution to the thread. It's almost a non-sequitur.
Archers are simply characters who are focused on doing ranged damage with a bow. Otherwise they can do or be anything the party needs. There is nothing stopping an archer from pumping up UMD and being a part-time caster. Many archers are also skill-monkeys themselves. I've even seen rogue archers. A ranger or paladin archer can even craft magic items.
How can you think that being an archer means you can't also do all of these other things?
Heck, my druid is the archer in our party, and when she's not archering, she's just, you know, a friggin' full-casting, wild-shaping, animal companion sporting druid.
On a related note, a bard-archer I played a while back was a completely amazing character for party usefulness. All the bard buffs made my archer a very effective damage dealer while also buffing the rest of the party. And of course, all the normal bard out-of-combat utility/face awesomeness.
Archery bards are awesome. Not much more to say. Just quite awesome. Good to-hit, great damage (music + arcane strike + strength + gloves of dueling + greater bracers of archery = pretty good hit/damage). Also, before anyone asks, Use Magic Device (DC 20).
How do gloves of dueling help archery bards? Don't you need weapon training to benefit from those?
How do gloves of dueling help archery bards? Don't you need weapon training to benefit from those?
The same way bards wield holy avengers with all the trimmings. Use Magic Device. DC 25 lets the bard get the effects as if he Weapon Training. So the bard gets the weapon training bonus (0) +2. EDIT: Fixed the DC.
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Actually, archery builds suck from a teamwork standpoint. Sure, they deal out great damage, but what role do they fill?
A wizard is a controler, who can cast utility spells during times of non-combat, channel the foes down to one area so that the have to go thru the Tank, or unleash massive hurt. The archer? Can unleash massive hurt.
The Tank stops the foes from getting to the squishies, absorbs damage, and can unleash massive hurt. The archer? Can unleash massive hurt.
The skill-monkey can be invaluable during non combat with great skill rolls, disarming traps, finding loot, and often acting as a face when you REALLY need to get past that guard without killing him.... oh, and when he's lined up just right- unleash massive hurt. The archer? Can unleash massive hurt.
The Leader/healer can buff the party to a fair-thee well, doubling the effectiveness of the whole party, he can also heal everyone up, raise the dead, and oh yes- when buffed or with the right spells- unleash massive hurt. The archer? Can unleash massive hurt.
The archer can do just one thing. Really, he brings almost nothing to the party as a whole. Sure, he has the potential for unleashing massive hurt, but D&D is more than just killing the foe.
Personally as a player who uses ranger archers quite a bit to be mildly offended at this. My rangers are at least competent in melee combat as any prepared adventurer should be, are just as good at scouting as any other class, moreso if in a favored environment, and has utility spells and always keeps a few handy wands around for buffs and healing. They arent usually socially capable really but thats not really his job, his job is keeping an eye out for double crosses and ambushes while the silly city folk try and talk about things =)
Asta
PSY
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How do gloves of dueling help archery bards? Don't you need weapon training to benefit from those?The same way bards wield holy avengers with all the trimmings. Use Magic Device. DC 25 lets the bard get the effects as if he Weapon Training. So the bard gets the weapon training bonus (0) +2. EDIT: Fixed the DC.
Except Use Magic Device says "This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class" as well as "It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature."
And I'm pretty sure gloves of dueling simply increase the existing bonus. If you don't have a bonus from the class feature to begin with (because you clearly don't have the class feature) than I'd hesitate to say this would work at all. What's more, Use Magic Device seems clear in that it let's you ACTIVATE magical items as if you had the class feature.
Last I checked, gloves of dueling aren't activated and thus don't benefit from this skill.
Just my 2cp.
The whole thing was a little bothersome to me because my friend gets so defensive if you even suggest that any other class could push out as much damage as a barbarian. I guess he takes it as an insult to his intelligence or something. But he disses on everything magic and I was looking at doing a cleric archer and he all but scoffed when I suggested I might be able to put out as much damage as his character who is a Goliath Barbarian.I'm probably wrong but his barbarians and fighters are the best at doing combat and anything magic is situational or OP gets old.
If pathfinder only, you can put him to shame with a lot of archers builds. Fighter is the easier, but ranger (past level 10 or with the guide archetype before that) and zen archers can do it too. Unfortunately, I doubt you could outdamage a barbarian with an archer cleric: their bab is too low (so you get the important feats later than everyone else), have no fast way to get to the crazy to-hit of fighter/ranger/monk, are slightly more mad, lack feats. Really, you could be a decent archer (which, on top of a fullcasting class is sick) but not outdamage a barbarian.
In pathfinder he isn't going to outdamage a fighter built for damage with a barbarian. It isn't going to happen. Fighters have been purposefully put to the front of the damage class and they can regularly solo encounters with pure damage.
Barbarians aren't chumps however -- they have excellent defenses, nasty surprise options and are hard to put down... in some ways they are more the trickster combatants then fighters will every be... but when it comes to pure AC and damage fighter is where it is at now.
Of course if you go splat book city with 3.5 everything changes... but then the only real contenders are spell casters anyways.
Barbarians have got quite a few nice options, I'm not really sure that they lag behind fighters as much as you think, even in terms of pure AC and damage.
AC can be easily raised by spending a few feats/rp (heavy armor proficiency for mithral full plate, beast totem rage power, guarded stance).For damage in the PC's round you are right, fighters are king (two-handed archetype), but in the whole round barbarian get ahead by far with come and get me (if anyone dares to attack them, of course).
Not so relevant for this thread, but the OP should be aware that barbarians are capable of insane amount of damage: this does not means that his friend's PC is as optimized as I assume it to be.
Hey, dork, in your DPR tests, how come the archer does 196 damage to the creature that has dr 20/-, and 183 to the creature that has no DR?
Sounds kind of fishy to me...
==Aelryinth
The 196 takes into account the +33 dmg from one AoO (he specified it in his previous post).
What did the Dragon do? Never get on the ground for one. Instead, it was happy to stay aloft and bombard the party with spells and breath weapons. Ok, so we use fly spells to try and catch the dragon. The dragons a spellcaster, highly intelligent, cunning and run exactly as such by the DM. A dispel magic here, moving away from the party there and suddenly where you had 2 guys flying up to meet the dragon, there is only 1 (the other had his fly dispelled by the dragon - between the fall and previous damage, that killed him).
Not that relevant, but dispelling a fly spell make the target slowly fall like a feather fall spell.
Actually, archery builds suck from a teamwork standpoint. Sure, they deal out great damage, but what role do they fill?
A wizard is a controler, who can cast utility spells during times of non-combat, channel the foes down to one area so that the have to go thru the Tank, or unleash massive hurt. The archer? Can unleash massive hurt.
There are a selection of different arrows which can be used for different things.
- pheromone arrow: buffs the to hit and damage of everyone with scent. Be it an animal companion, a (half)ork, a catfolk or whatever has scent and fights your enemy.
- Burning arrows: Can be used to set things on fire in addition to dealing damage.
- whistle arrows: If out scouting the archer can warn the party
- With light cast on an arrow (no matter if cast by him or someone else) the archer can deliver the light there, where it is needed.
Just some things from the top of my head.
I doubt you could outdamage a barbarian with an archer cleric: their bab is too low (so you get the important feats later than everyone else), have no fast way to get to the crazy to-hit of fighter/ranger/monk, are slightly more mad, lack feats. Really, you could be a decent archer (which, on top of a fullcasting class is sick) but not outdamage a barbarian.
What could help is to take the eagle domain (under animal and terrain domains). With it you can add half your cleric level on to hit with ranged attacks a couple of times per day.
That you get a hawk familiar is just a nice added bonus.
With the right buff spells used you will perhaps not outdamage the barbarian but you will do fine.
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Personally, builds and the like aside, it comes down to this.
No matter how godly your melee attacks are, you have to actually be in melee to use them. It's really not that uncommon to come across situations where you simply can't reach your enemy. For example, I distinctly recall a game where the party (virtually ALL melee) came up against a Blue Dragon.
What did the Dragon do? Never get on the ground for one. Instead, it was happy to stay aloft and bombard the party with spells and breath weapons. Ok, so we use fly spells to try and catch the dragon. The dragons a spellcaster, highly intelligent, cunning and run exactly as such by the DM. A dispel magic here, moving away from the party there and suddenly where you had 2 guys flying up to meet the dragon, there is only 1 (the other had his fly dispelled by the dragon - between the fall and previous damage, that killed him). The dragon then simply moves up to his maximum range above the enemy and picks him off out of range of the rest of the party. Once that's done, he resumes the bombardment.
We had no option but to run - and have the dragon pursue us, happily blasting us to bits with his lightning breath and sorceror abilities (we did have 1 archer, which was the first person the dragon killed).
Realistically, the dragon could have killed the entire party, if the DM didn't decide to let us get away.
This is the problem you get with melee characters in all games - if the enemy is able to keep you at range, your at a big disadvantage. Archers, on the other hand, don't have this problem so much. While there are ways to shutdown archers, they still have the option to fall back to melee combat. Any decently designed archer can still perform ok in melee combat with a minimal investment in feats. Sure, you wont be nearly as good as that power attacking barbarian meat grinder of death, but, you only need to be better then your enemy.
It's who won at the end of the day that counts. Archers by virtue of their range have more tactical options. That is...
Should the spell duration expire while the subject is still aloft, the magic fails slowly. The subject floats downward 60 feet per round for 1d6 rounds. If it reaches the ground in that amount of time, it lands safely. If not, it falls the rest of the distance, taking 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet of fall. Since dispelling a spell effectively ends it, the subject also descends safely in this way if the fly spell is dispelled, but not if it is negated by an antimagic field.
I find it hard to believe that this sort of comment is actually a serious contribution to the thread. It's almost a non-sequitur.
Archers are simply characters who are focused on doing ranged damage with a bow. Otherwise they can do or be anything the party needs. There is nothing stopping an archer from pumping up UMD and being a part-time caster. Many archers are also skill-monkeys themselves. I've even seen rogue archers. A ranger or paladin archer can even craft magic items.
How can you think that being an archer means you can't also do all of these other things?
Heck, my druid is the archer in our party, and when she's not archering, she's just, you know, a friggin' full-casting, wild-shaping, animal companion sporting druid.
Most of the folks here have been talking about the full-blown Fighter archer. Certainly there's nothing wrong with the parties bard (for example) taking up archery, but he's not going to be the sort of massive damage dealer described here in this thread. True, a ranger- archer (and to some extent the Zen archer)is almost as good as the fighter and can still be a decent skill-monkey. But the fighter archer build is what does all that damage folks talks about it...and that's the ONLY thing it can do.
Ashiel makes my point perfectly when posting about archers being the "DPS" of the group. (Of course, the term DPS is not defined for others, but...)
A fighter archer can still be very useful for other things -- consider the 'norm' of fighter archers currently that at level 16 can 1~1.5 round a balor spot the balor before the balor can spot him and pass all his save throws without any trouble while still having enough armor to tank the encounter too.
Then realize that specific fighter was built close to corerule book only.
Most of the folks here have been talking about the full-blown Fighter archer. Certainly there's nothing wrong with the parties bard (for example) taking up archery, but he's not going to be the sort of massive damage dealer described here in this thread. True, a ranger- archer (and to some extent the Zen archer)is almost as good as the fighter and can still be a decent skill-monkey. But the fighter archer build is what does all that damage folks talks about it...and that's the ONLY thing it can do.Ashiel makes my point perfectly when posting about archers being the "DPS" of the group. (Of course, the term DPS is not defined for others, but...)
My comments still apply in my opinion DrDeth. First of all a fighter is going to be a decent melee build even if focused on archery unless the player deliberately gimps them in melee. Fighters get proficiency with any armor and just about any weapon, they gain enough feats that they can spare a few combat feats for melee while still outstripping any other class in the archery tree and they get full BAB on their melee attacks even if they do focus on archery. So the idea that an archer fighter is useless in melee is simply silly.
Furthermore, fighters are still characters. I suppose if you dump int and/or cha in a min/max build it might be hard to do much with skills, but most reasonably built fighters can take enough skills to be at least reasonably useful outside of combat. Fighters can take UMD too you know.
Is there an archer guide or thread that compares the various builds of archers? Bard, ranger, fighter... Maybe comparing DPR versus versatility.
Is there an archer guide or thread that compares the various builds of archers? Bard, ranger, fighter... Maybe comparing DPR versus versatility.
Currently, no. I am starting to get together various archer builds from different sources and my own builds, to be put into a collective.
Best bet would be to look at the Guide to the Guides, and take a loot at each of the classes and see if the writer gave an archery option review.
Fighter, monk, ranger, paladin, alchemist, bard, inquisitor, eldritch knight, rogue, magus, monk, ninja, Samurai= these guides mention or cover archery versions of the class. Others like the witch and oracle haven't been covered. Again, look on the boards for comaprison amongst different archer types.
The barbarian guide isn't updated for an archery rager, but it is possible and not that bad.
I made a quick barbarian archer on another thread, urban barbarian archer
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Actually, archery builds suck from a teamwork standpoint. Sure, they deal out great damage, but what role do they fill?
Well, my straight fighter archer also servers as the party scout and diplomat. Maxed perception and stealth + darkvision for scouting (half orc) and is good in that area even without class skills. He has diplomacy as class through a trait and keeps it maxed as well. Int 12 + racial bonus per level gives him 4 skill points per level.
Other classes could be better with these skills, but in our party my straight fighter still has the best diplomacy and stealth.
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My ideal archery build progression:
Human Fighter (Archer)
Ability Scores: need Dex 16+, higher Str is better (composite bows)
Feats: Improved Initiative, Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus: Longbow
Level 02: Deadly Aim
Level 03: Far Shot; Trick Shot: Disarm
Level 04: Iron Will; +1 Dex
Level 05: Precise Shot
Level 06: Rapid Shot
Level 07: Weapon Specialization: Longbow; Trick Shot: Sunder
Level 08: Manyshot; +1 Dex
Level 09: Point Blank Master
Level 10: Disrupting Shot
Level 11: Greater Weapon Focus: Longbow; Trick Shot: Trip
Level 12: Improved Critical: Longbow; +1 Dex
Level 13: Improved Precise Shot
Level 14: Greater Weapon Specialization: Longbow
Level 15: Critical Focus; Trick Shot: Bull Rush
Level 16: Impact Critical Shot; +1 Dex
Level 17: Pinpoint Targeting
Level 18: Bleeding Critical
Level 19: Penetrating Strike; Trick Shot: Grapple
Level 20: Greater Penetrating Strike; +1 Dex
Kthulhu, I personally do not like the archer archetype since most of those trick shots will not work. CMB vs CMD has always been hard and now that you are losing the +2 (for not having the improved feats of those trick shots) AND take a -4 penalty AND are not able to use dexterity for the CMB checks it just wont work very often.
Also, why are you taking Point Blank Master at level 9 when you get an equivalent ability for free at level 9?
- Gauss
Heh, Kthulhu, that's one of those "looks great on paper" builds...