Personally I'd just disallow the ability of non-modern firearms to ignore armor beyond the shortest range increment. It allows gunslingers to still have their special abilities without becoming overpowered.
Alternatively, you could also rule that only the FIRST shot ignores armor. That way each additional attack has to pierce regular armor. The reasoning behind it? You're shoving a new round into your gun too quickly to properly tamp it down. And trust me, you're not going to be able to use a non-cartridge firearm five times in six seconds (which is a round). so this just helps make things slightly more realistic. ;)
Things could be given Touch ACs equal to their full standard AC, turning the 'slinger into something equal to or worse than a crossbow user with no weapon-training to attack.
A gunslinger is BETTER than an archer with a bow. They DESTROY crossbow DPS. If you make them use regular AC instead of touch, it brings them down to the level of the archer, the misfire chance balancing out the DEX to damage that an archer can never have.
Things could be given Touch ACs equal to their full standard AC, turning the 'slinger into something equal to or worse than a crossbow user with no weapon-training to attack.A gunslinger is BETTER than an archer with a bow. They DESTROY crossbow DPS. If you make them use regular AC instead of touch, it brings them down to the level of the archer, the misfire chance balancing out the DEX to damage that an archer can never have.
What about the STR to damage that archers who are built right always have? Or the many shot?
Okay Gunslingers don't get DEX to damage they have STR too if it makes you feel better (not sure why you'd take that away, but I'm cool with it). Can there be double barrel Longbows? No? Then no manyshot.
All I really want to do with the gun rules (not with standing that I still think they're horribly out of place in Pathfinder) is remove the misfire chance and remove the touch AC bit. This would balance everything out IMO. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong.
Okay Gunslingers don't get DEX to damage they have STR too if it makes you feel better (not sure why you'd take that away, but I'm cool with it). Can there be double barrel Longbows? No? Then no manyshot.I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say here.
My first question would be: Did you read the thread? If you did, my next question is: Which part is confusing you? The part that Gunslingers get to add the DEX to damage or the part that notabot is upset by that? I'll cover both, just in case.
At 5th level Gunslingers get to add DEX to damage:
Gun Training (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a gunslinger can select one specific type of firearm (such as an axe musket, blunderbuss, musket, or pistol). She gains a bonus equal to her Dexterity modifier on damage rolls when firing that type of firearm. Furthermore, when she misfires with that type of firearm, the misfire value of that firearm increases by 2 instead of 4.
That seems pretty self-explanatory.
I said:
If you make them use regular AC instead of touch, it brings them down to the level of the archer, the misfire chance balancing out the DEX to damage that an archer can never have.
to which:
What about the STR to damage that archers who are built right always have? Or the many shot?
So I responded with:
Okay Gunslingers don't get DEX to damage they have STR too if it makes you feel better (not sure why you'd take that away, but I'm cool with it). Can there be double barrel Longbows? No? Then no manyshot.
My point is Gunslingers already add their primary stat to damage, Archers cannot. This makes Gunslingers better than archers. Why notabot thinks an archer adding a secondary stat to damage is better than adding a primary stat to damage is a mystery to me too, but was willing to go with him on it.
notabot's second complaint is about the Manyshot feat that can't be applied to guns. My response is that you can have double barrel guns, which means Gunslingers can "Manyshot" every round without the feat, so we'll leave the Manyshot feat to archers only.
All I really want to do with the gun rules (not with standing that I still think they're horribly out of place in Pathfinder) is remove the misfire chance and remove the touch AC bit. This would balance everything out IMO. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong.
There are space ships, aliens and androids in "Pathfinder" I think gun powder certainly has a place. The problem is that there is a reason no one has really been sword fighting for the last 3 and a half centuries.
@Christopher Lee - Please make a first level wizard that can trivialize 3 encounters per day at level 1. I want to see the build and the spells that have this ability.
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I think people are confusing several issues. First many players in many cases like to push aspects of the game until it breaks. This can result in dm feeling the encounters are trivialized. For some reason it bothers them when martials dominate but its okay if a wizard kills everything with fireball.
That said gunslingers are fairly intuitive to play oncw you understand them and its easy for a novice player to do well. However just about every complaint about gunslingers involves pistolero (often with mysterious stranger) musket master and double barreled guns. The issue really is the double barreled guns in most cases.
People seem to forget by the time we hit the teens and wizards are tossing save or die or save or suck spells like used tissues normal archers without any weird gimicks do amazing damage. In my rise of the runelord game some time ago our archer killed an irom golem in one round.
Anyhow as I've said before expereienced players with system mastery should know the paradigm of the players they play with and the game itself. They should be able to build a char anywhere within the paradigm and have fun.
On a final note for skull and shackles I'm currently playing a tiefling mysterious stranger gunslinger using a musket. I'm basically a skill focused character that uses called shot and dead shot. The barbarian in our group with zuul and the 2h falchion using fighter do far more damage than I do.
There are space ships, aliens and androids in "Pathfinder" I think gun powder certainly has a place. The problem is that there is a reason no one has really been sword fighting for the last 3 and a half centuries.
Aliens are fine. Magic, specifically Interplanetary Teleport. Or the Sovyrian Stone and similar which the Elves used to travel to and from the planet Castrovel. I do not know of cannon examples of "spaceships" and "androids" though they may exist, but I feel they are very rare examples. Besides there are magical things that are similar but distinctly different like Baba Yaga's Dancing Hut and (for spaceships) and Constructs (for Androids). They accomplish much of the same, but are based solely on magic. I like magic in my games, I don't like advanced technology in my games.
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My point is Gunslingers already add their primary stat to damage, Archers cannot. This makes Gunslingers better than archers.
Except that you earlier compared an archer fighter to a gunslinger. A typical gunslinger at level 5, when firearm training kicks in, will be adding +5 damage from their Dex. But a typical fighter-archer will be adding +2 from Strength and +3 from feats and class features, so it becomes something of a wash. The fighter will also be adding another +2 in attack bonuses from feats and class features; while the feat is not exclusive to fighters at that level, it is rare in my experience for a 5th level gunslinger to have picked up Weapon Focus yet, because gunslingers are feat-starved at low levels and generally believe they don't need the attack bonus.
notabot's second complaint is about the Manyshot feat that can't be applied to guns. My response is that you can have double barrel guns, which means Gunslingers can "Manyshot" every round without the feat, so we'll leave the Manyshot feat to archers only.
Double barrel guns cause a hefty attack penalty if you actually take advantage of the double barrel to "Manyshot every round." That means you're effectively at a -6 on attack rolls to our hypothetical archer fighter; at this point, targeting touch AC isn't looking nearly as cool as it was before, and is instead approaching the level of "only way we can keep up."
I think people are confusing several issues. First many players in many cases like to push aspects of the game until it breaks. This can result in dm feeling the encounters are trivialized. For some reason it bothers them when martials dominate but its okay if a wizard kills everything with fireball.
There are limitations built into a Wizard that people love to ignore. Component costs they love to talk about ammunition costs while ignoring this. That's not counting the cost of scribing spells into spell books, buying scrolls etc. Counterspelling completely negates a Wizard's actions. Everyone looks at the Wizard's spell list and acts like the Wizard can cast all those spells at any second all the time. Sure a wizard can cast a fireball once in awhile, a gunslinger does that damage and more every single round. Make fireball unllimited casting like first level spells, I can see a complaint until then, not so much. Oh yeah and a gunslinger can stop a Wizard with a disarm of spell components, or no-save confusion.
That said gunslingers are fairly intuitive to play oncw you understand them and its easy for a novice player to do well. However just about every complaint about gunslingers involves pistolero (often with mysterious stranger) musket master and double barreled guns. The issue really is the double barreled guns in most cases.
No it isn't. I'll explain next paragraph.
People seem to forget by the time we hit the teens and wizards are tossing save or die or save or suck spells like used tissues normal archers without any weird gimicks do amazing damage. In my rise of the runelord game some time ago our archer killed an irom golem in one round.
I've covered wizards, the same still applies, and yes archers do do amazing damage. Now imagine that same archer, but instead of having to attack normal AC, it only needs touch AC. Instead of using STR for damage, it uses DEX and STR is now throw away stat, and instead of a d8 (or 2d6 with gravity bow) imagine its a d12 or 3d6. That's the difference between an archer and a gunslinger with one barrel.
On a final note for skull and shackles I'm currently playing a tiefling mysterious stranger gunslinger using a musket. I'm basically a skill focused character that uses called shot and dead shot. The barbarian in our group with zuul and the 2h falchion using fighter do far more damage than I do.
You're playing low levels. An archer at this level would be outshined too. Wait a few levels this will shift dramatically.
Color Spray - is a 15' illusion. There are litterally in infinate number of encounters that this will do nothing for, ranging from simply fighting enemies with ranged weapons, to fighting Skeletons to facing a trap.
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Aliens are fine. Magic, specifically Interplanetary Teleport. Or the Sovyrian Stone and similar which the Elves used to travel to and from the planet Castrovel. I do not know of cannon examples of "spaceships" and "androids" though they may exist, but I feel they are very rare examples. Besides there are magical things that are similar but distinctly different like Baba Yaga's Dancing Hut and (for spaceships) and Constructs (for Androids). They accomplish much of the same, but are based solely on magic. I like magic in my games, I don't like advanced technology in my games.There are space ships, aliens and androids in "Pathfinder" I think gun powder certainly has a place. The problem is that there is a reason no one has really been sword fighting for the last 3 and a half centuries.
If you play Pathfinder (the RPG) in something else (homebrew setting, Eberron, Dark Sun, etc) than you can avoid guns, androids, spaceships, and all the other jazz.
If you play Pathfinder (the RPG in Golarion, with Campaign Setting supplements) then you should take a look at places like the Mana Wastes or Numeria, which are just as valid as Irrisen or Galt. Do you allow Alchemists? Have you changed Azlanti culture, because they had clockwork robots? I'm pretty sure Nex uses magitech, Final Fantasy 6 style.
When you DM you can use whatever you want, but Golarion doesn't feel right without the more unusual stuff they put in. The Azlanti invented robots about the same time they invented "specialist schools of Arcane magic", so yeah.
at this point, targeting touch AC isn't looking nearly as cool as it was before, and is instead approaching the level of "only way we can keep up."
Expect this is completely wrong. Do this: Go to www.d20pfsrd.com go to the monster section and put them in order by CR. Go to CR 5 and look down the first column (or pick a column or even 4 of them). Almost every one of the mosters have a touch AC at least 5 points lower than their regular AC. And that's CR 5. Look at higher levels and the diparity is even worse. I really think this is where the disconnect is. I really want you gunslinger fans to go check out the difference between touch and regular ACs. If you do, I think you'll see what I'm saying.
Even if you only use your double barrel once, you've just done as much as Many Shot. More actually because if you have precision damage you get that twice too.
Shisumo you really can't win this fight. A gunslinger can do everything a fighter can do, except they use touch AC's have a higher damage die (d12) use your primary stat to hit and damage, and have a 4x crit multipier. You think Weapon Specialization balances that?
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at this point, targeting touch AC isn't looking nearly as cool as it was before, and is instead approaching the level of "only way we can keep up."Expect this is completely wrong. Do this: Go to www.d20pfsrd.com go to the monster section and put them in order by CR. Go to CR 5 and look down the first column (or pick a column or even 4 of them). Almost every one of the mosters have a touch AC at least 5 points lower than their regular AC. And that's CR 5. Look at higher levels and the diparity is even worse. I really think this is where the disconnect is. I really want you gunslinger fans to go check out the difference between touch and regular ACs. If you do, I think you'll see what I'm saying.
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This is a really good point and the biggest issue with targeting touch AC. As it stands, Touch AC actually scales down for the vast majority of threasts listed in the Bestiaries as the CR goes up.
It's actually easier to hit a Great Wyrm red dragon's touch AC than it is to hit a Wyrmling's. For the vast majority of monster threats, a Gunslinger's penalties for Rapid Shot, Double Barrel, Deadly Aim, Two Weapon Fighting etc. are actually really negligible because the enemy Touch AC's are getting lower.|
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at this point, targeting touch AC isn't looking nearly as cool as it was before, and is instead approaching the level of "only way we can keep up."Expect this is completely wrong. Do this: Go to www.d20pfsrd.com go to the monster section and put them in order by CR. Go to CR 5 and look down the first column (or pick a column or even 4 of them). Almost every one of the mosters have a touch AC at least 5 points lower than their regular AC.
Which means... hm. You're taking a -6 penalty to attack in order to hit an AC of at least 5 lower.
Yeah, I'm sticking with my first answer, thanks.
Shisumo you really can't win this fight. A gunslinger can do everything a fighter can do, except they use touch AC's have a higher damage die (d12) use your primary stat to hit and damage, and have a 4x crit multipier. You think Weapon Specialization balances that?
It's kind of you to tell me which fights I can and cannot win, but I'm good without the help, thanks. I've seen gunslingers and archers both in action and in theorycraft. Archers win, every time.
Heck, we can even pull out the numbers ourselves, if you like. Pick a level, a target (from one of the Bestiaries or the NPC Codex, so there's no possibility of accusation that you're "building against" whatever), and a range from the target, and build a gunslinger. I'll build an archer fighter, and we can run the math. I'd suggest using the DPR Olympics rules to maintain parity and prevent excessive glass-cannon building.
If you play Pathfinder (the RPG) in something else (homebrew setting, Eberron, Dark Sun, etc) than you can avoid guns, androids, spaceships, and all the other jazz.
If you play Pathfinder (the RPG in Golarion, with Campaign Setting supplements) then you should take a look at places like the Mana Wastes or Numeria, which are just as valid as Irrisen or Galt. Do you allow Alchemists? Have you changed Azlanti culture, because they had clockwork robots? I'm pretty sure Nex uses magitech, Final Fantasy 6 style.
When you DM you can use whatever you want, but Golarion doesn't feel right without the more unusual stuff they put in. The Azlanti invented robots about the same time they invented "specialist schools of Arcane magic", so yeah.
Alchemists are totally fine, you mix some stuff and make new stuff out of it. I can totally appreciate the alchemist and its place in medieval fantasy.
I'm not familiar with Mana Wastes or Numeria, though I do like to find out more about the world of Golarion. Azlanti and their clockwork robots are fine, but they're still not "androids". Clockwork robots are (I'm assuming) just constructs like Inevitables and I'm cool with the concept of clockwork. When someone says Android I'm thinking firstly a human appearing robot, and secondly one composed of electronic system like Data from Star Trek (which I'm not okay with in Golarion). I'm not sure what you mean by Magitech exactly.
Edit: Doing a little research, I believe by Mana Wastes you're referring mostly to the city/state of Alkenstar and their advanced technology? I'm not familiar with it, though by the sound of it I don't like it. Reading a little about Numeria and the Technic Leauge I don't care for their Gearmen either.
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It's kind of you to tell me which fights I can and cannot win, but I'm good without the help, thanks. I've seen gunslingers and archers both in action and in theorycraft. Archers win, every time.
Totally false. Pick any dragon of age Adult or higher, whose Touch AC's are anywhere from 12 points lower to 44 points lower than their regular ACs. Most Gunslingers have twice the initiative or better than the dragons, and the TWF Pistolero can one round just about any CR appropriate dragon from about 10th level on.
Balors, Babaus, Glabrezus and many other demons also feature 8-16 point differentials between their AC and touch AC. Also Bulettes, Dinosaurs, the Tarrasque, Zombies, Skeletons, Daemons.....
I mean, the list of criiters with 8-40 point differentials between AC and Touch is pretty exhaustive, giving the Gunslinger a huge boost on his chance to hit over the Archer.
The Archer definitely has the edge in open fields where they can see the enemy coming though.
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Chance to hit really isn't the big deal that it's being made out to be, though. Fighters get huge bonuses to hit that the gunslinger can't match, meaning that the differential isn't as big as it's being presented to be in the first place. At 10th level, a fighter's got anywhere from +3 to +6 more to-hit than a 10th level gunslinger, depending on whether the 'slinger took Weapon Focus or the fighter has bought his gloves yet, and doesn't have to take an additional -4 penalty to use Manyshot either. That's a -7 to -10 swing. That covers a lot of touch AC difference. Moreover, damage bonuses count, and fighters can sustain damage for far longer than an equal-level gunslinger can. And yes, they can do it more than 40 or even 80 feet away. I mean, if you only ever fight dragons in tunnels, that's one thing - but given that, say, an adult black dragon has a 180 foot frightful aura and a 200 foot move speed, all I can say is, you're betting a lot on winning initiative and starting in close range.
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Well I will say I have been at PFS tables with twinked archers and twinked gunslingers (pistolero) and the gunslinger leaves the archer in the dust at high tier PFS (and through the retirement arc).
Well I will say I have been at PFS tables with twinked archers and twinked gunslingers (pistolero) and the gunslinger leaves the archer in the dust at high tier PFS (and through the retirement arc).
that is because from what i read on the boards of people's PFS characters, that wealth is so easy to come by, the cost of paper cartridges is irrelevant.
it is 6 gold pieces to craft one cartridge or 12 gold pieces to buy
it is 1 gold piece to buy 20 arrows or 1 gold piece to craft 60 arrows.
i also read, that a lot of PFS fights start at close range
so really, the scenarios are biased in favor of the gunslinger
one of many things i don't like about what i pick up about PFS, besides the restrictions on races, classes, and 3rd party material, is the fact that most encounters follow the same set of encounter archetypes
the main two encounter archetypes i hear about PFS are
Archetype 1; roll a skill check or few. if successful, you win
Archetype 2; close range encounter where the gunslinger and dwarf aren't worried about range
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I have to completely disagree James. The vast majority of settings involve places like dungeons, sewers, forests, castles, etc. which all make the archer's range largely irrelevant. Well built Pistolero's are Two-Weapon Fighting with double-barreled pistols while Rapid Shotting and using Deadly Aim, the minus 10 to hit be damned because most monsters have a touch AC at least 8 to 10 points (if not substantially more) lower than their actual AC. They're also functionally SAD with DEX being their only primary stat, meaning they can focus to a degree that Archer's don't need to. A Pistolero with Signature Deed (Up Close and Deadly) can apply his extra d6's to every shot all day long, in addition to his DEX to damage, and there are multiple ways to completely negate your misfire chance, either through weapon enchants, feats, or racial bonuses.
Now you've got a Gunslinger making twice as many attacks as an archer with the same or better chance to hit in most situations, and the same or better damage.
Unless the party is fighting in an open field with the enemy neatly arrayed a few hundred yards away or riding around on gryphon back, the archer's range is more an unused bragging right than any kind of game changer.
@jodokai I'm not sure how double barreled pistols and muskets are not the main issue. Its difficult if not impossible to have a non musket master fire a musket evry round. Lightning reload only let's you reload one barrel a round.
In regards to the character I am playing its unlikelt it will ever out damage the group melee fighters. We are lvl 11. Signature deed dead shot + focused aim is 1 grit. Then lightning reload is a second grit. So after round 1 I'm spending 2 grit a turn to fire every round.
In the end though if you look back through the thread every example. Posted is a pistolero or musket man using a double barreled gun given I haven't read posts discussing any other archetype maybe the issue isn't the entire class?
120 damage with full which includes a critical doesn't seem that crazy to me at level 5. It's x4 multiplier on 1D12 +Dex. A critical is going to be big damage. Now it only happen on 20 and you need to confirm it. So really less than a 5% chance of occurring. The misfire chance is 15% then 25% if misfires again causing explosion. You have greater chance of misfiring that doing a critical. As well you are burning grit to pull this off with the Musket Master otherwise you wouldn't be able to Full Attack.
A ranger with a bow can do just as much at 5th level with out the critical. Had ranger in my King Maker game do 171 damage with a 1 critical and 4 additional attack due to rapid shot, many shot and haste. Then add in Deadly aim and gravity bow on his favored enemy. Instant kill.
I have to completely disagree James. The vast majority of settings involve places like dungeons, sewers, forests, castles, etc. which all make the archer's range largely irrelevant. Well built Pistolero's are Two-Weapon Fighting with double-barreled pistols while Rapid Shotting and using Deadly Aim, the minus 10 to hit be damned because most monsters have a touch AC at least 8 to 10 points (if not substantially more) lower than their actual AC. They're also functionally SAD with DEX being their only primary stat, meaning they can focus to a degree that Archer's don't need to. A Pistolero with Signature Deed (Up Close and Deadly) can apply his extra d6's to every shot all day long, in addition to his DEX to damage, and there are multiple ways to completely negate your misfire chance, either through weapon enchants, feats, or racial bonuses.
Now you've got a Gunslinger making twice as many attacks as an archer with the same or better chance to hit in most situations, and the same or better damage.
Unless the party is fighting in an open field with the enemy neatly arrayed a few hundred yards away or riding around on gryphon back, the archer's range is more an unused bragging right than any kind of game changer.
Guns also leave a loud banging sound, try using a gun on a stealth mission. the sound will give away your position in a heartbeat.
Signature deed isn't an option till 11th level
plus you have to spend a lot more, on both the pistols, and the ammunition
2050 per gun before enhancements.
6 gold pieces per shot
with your 10 shots a round you take such pride in, you blow through 60 gold pieces a turn, in your typical 5 round fight, you wasted 300 per fight.
at higher levels, you waste even more gold per turn.
that gold adds up
you also have a 15% misfire chance unless you use a specific +3 equivalent weapon enchantment
and more attacks means more chances to misfire
and misfires mean you need to buy a new gun or waste a standard action
in fact, archers don't have to worry about misfires, and they don't have to stay in enemy melee range to continue their consistent damage.
archer range may not matter indoors, but it sure as hell matters outdoors when the enemy could be hundreds of feat away and still attack you.
it also matters in campaigns with lots of travel, such as a campaign involving Piracy, Banditry, Caravans, or the like
I love archers, but in terms of damage gunslinguer is better.
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In the end though if you look back through the thread every example. Posted is a pistolero or musket man using a double barreled gun given I haven't read posts discussing any other archetype maybe the issue isn't the entire class?
It has been my experience that the vast majority of non-thematic issues people have with the Gunslinger can be traced directly to either the Musket Master or Pistolero archetypes. You take those out of the picture and suddenly 90% of the accusations of the class being broken disappear like dew on a hot summer day. The other 10% take up their double-barreled pistols and hunker down for war.
I love archers, but in terms of damage gunslinguer is better.
only when the Gunslinger meets the following criteria
point blank range with Enemy
invested enough resources to full attack
wields highly specific magically enhanced versions of highly specific double barreled firearms
finds a way to overcome their lack of grit
finds a way to overcome the massive gold expenditure they waste
finds a way to keep their enemy in point blank range at all times
finds a way to overcome the attacks of opportunity
finds a way to not be melee'd by their foes
finds a way to overcome the downsides of misfires
keeps back up firearms of the same general type in case a gun explodes in their face
in the case of Pistoleros, a Pistolero also needs either a third hand or a prehensile tail to reload their guns.
pistoleros exemplify many of these, such as Point Blank range, misfires, needing highly specific weapons, needing lots of feats wasted to full attack, having frequent misfires, and wasting massive amounts of gold
musket masters invest even more resources to full attack, and have even worse grit issues, but in exchange for fewer attacks, have a small bit more range.
I love archers, but in terms of damage gunslinguer is better.only when the Gunslinger meets the following criteria
point blank range with Enemy
invested enough resources to full attack
wields highly specific magically enhanced versions of highly specific double barreled firearms
finds a way to overcome their lack of grit
finds a way to overcome the massive gold expenditure they waste
finds a way to keep their enemy in point blank range at all times
finds a way to overcome the attacks of opportunity
finds a way to not be melee'd by their foes
finds a way to overcome the downsides of misfires
keeps back up firearms of the same general type in case a gun explodes in their face
in the case of Pistoleros, a Pistolero also needs either a third hand or a prehensile tail to reload their guns.pistoleros exemplify many of these, such as Point Blank range, misfires, needing highly specific weapons, needing lots of feats wasted to full attack, having frequent misfires, and wasting massive amounts of gold
musket masters invest even more resources to full attack, and have even worse grit issues, but in exchange for fewer attacks, have a small bit more range.
If you make a gunslinger for that nothing of this will be a problem...
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only when the Gunslinger meets the following criteria
point blank range with Enemy- see every published scenario, AP, and module ever. The number of encounters where a character doesn't start within or very close to point blank range are almost non-existent
invested enough resources to full attack- Ummm.... one feat and some cartridges, or an archetype if you want to use a two-handed firearmwields highly specific magically enhanced versions of highly specific double barreled firearms- this is an exaggeration. Yes, some (not all) races and characters need Reliable added to their firearms. No, it's not everyone, and there are lots of builds that rely on a specific enchantment or weapon.
finds a way to overcome their lack of grit- this is laughably easy. Have you ever met Signature Deed? Most builds have one trick that they actually need to max their damage, and this one feat covers it.
finds a way to overcome the massive gold expenditure they waste- the ability to craft their own ammunition is built into the class
finds a way to keep their enemy in point blank range at all times- not too hard when you move first and have a better than average chance of killing whatever you're shooting with a single Full Attack. The Distance enchantment can also open the range at which they target Touch AC substantially.
finds a way to overcome the attacks of opportunity- Deft Shootist. Archers suffer the same problem and can't solve it this easy.
finds a way to not be melee'd by their foes- Have you met the DEX heavy class with a built in ability called Nimble that boosts their AC? It's called the Gunslinger.
finds a way to overcome the downsides of misfires- Reliable, Greater Reliable, Quick Clear, Favored Class bonus for races like the dwarf, Pistol of the Infinite Sky
keeps back up firearms of the same general type in case a gun explodes in their face- this is trying to tack an additional item on to things that were covered by your other statements. See "finds a way to overcome the downsides of misfires"
Sslaarn, we must have very different playstyles
with Weekly William, the first enemy attack could be potentially taken from multiple hundreds of feet away under the right circumstances, making range actually matter, as well as mounted speed.
in fact, 2WF builds tend to be very gimped due to range and such, so we tend to go for 2HW, Reach Weapon, or S&B builds
by the time the Pistolero gets the full attack, the archers, pouncers, and switch hitters killed half the foes while the party was closing in. while ranged builds aren't neccessarily preferred, a ranged weapon allows us to open up and join the fight right away as we close in. and one of the most desired weapons, is composite longbows,
but we tend to take 3 encounters of APL+8 (for a 15 person party plus Cohorts, for a 4 person party, this would be like APL+40) and merge them into one, getting two encounters that are like 3 merged encounters apiece.
in fact, one of the reasons we use 3.5 material, is so non-barbarians can get pounce with a 1 level dip because archers are so devastating.
we don't complain about broken archers, we use bows ourselves.
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***in fact, 2WF builds tend to be very gimped due to range and such, so we tend to go for 2HW, Reach Weapon, or S&B builds
by the time the Pistolero gets the full attack, the archers, pouncers, and switch hitters killed half the foes while the party was closing in. while ranged builds aren't neccessarily preferred, a ranged weapon allows us to open up and join the fight right away as we close in. and one of the most desired weapons, is composite longbows,
but we tend to take 3 encounters of APL+8 (for a 15 person party plus Cohorts, for a 4 person party, this would be like APL+40) and merge them into one, getting two encounters that are like 3 merged encounters apiece.in fact, one of the reasons we use 3.5 material, is so non-barbarians can get pounce with a 1 level dip because archers are so devastating.
we don't complain about broken archers, we use bows ourselves.
See, and there's the disconnect. You are literally not playing the same game as everyone else. 3.5 had some underpowered stuff, and some crazy overpowered stuff, and with mixing it in you have drastically changed teh entire gaming dynamic. The fact that you are playing a 15 person party reinforces this difference, as does the fact that you are not playing in many of the environments that are assumptions of the game (you'll note I mentioned earlier that the one environment where the archer has an advantage is big open fields). Nothing wrong with that, it's just that, as I stated, you are literally not playing the same game as the bulk of the other Pathfinder players. You're giving an incredibly difficult to get ability (Pounce) away for a one level dip, you are apparently ... members of a traveling circus given the number of cohorts? As a note, in Pathfinder, Pounce does not combine with Mounted Combat (unless your horse is the one Pouncing). You may be doing Mounted Combat a bit differently as well (not sure) as ranged characters are able to full attack while their mount is taking its full movement speed to double move.
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Random thoughts:
1. I have a (still low level) gunslinger in PFS. It shines in combat, more so as it advances. Otherwise meh. It's not more powerful than a barbarian.
2. A wizard or sorcerer, with a wand of magic missles with a caster level of three, can autohit every round, attack incorporial, at 22 gp per shot, doing 2d4 + 2. And is a full spellcaster. Alchemical cartridges at 6 gp a shot, against touch in range, when that is "all" you can do, is not overpowered.
3. Golarion is, by design, a kitchen sink setting. That its whole point.
See, and there's the disconnect. You are literally not playing the same game as everyone else. 3.5 had some underpowered stuff, and some crazy overpowered stuff, and with mixing it in you have drastically changed teh entire gaming dynamic. The fact that you are playing a 15 person party reinforces this difference, as does the fact that you are not playing in many of the environments that are assumptions of the game (you'll note I mentioned earlier that the one environment where the archer has an advantage is big open fields). Nothing wrong with that, it's just that, as I stated, you are literally not playing the same game as the bulk of the other Pathfinder players. You're giving an incredibly difficult to get ability (Pounce) away for a one level dip, you are apparently ... members of a traveling circus given the number of cohorts? As a note, in Pathfinder, Pounce does not combine with Mounted Combat (unless your horse is the one Pouncing). You may be doing Mounted Combat a bit differently as well (not sure) as ranged characters are able to full attack while their mount is taking its full movement speed to double move***in fact, 2WF builds tend to be very gimped due to range and such, so we tend to go for 2HW, Reach Weapon, or S&B builds
by the time the Pistolero gets the full attack, the archers, pouncers, and switch hitters killed half the foes while the party was closing in. while ranged builds aren't neccessarily preferred, a ranged weapon allows us to open up and join the fight right away as we close in. and one of the most desired weapons, is composite longbows,
but we tend to take 3 encounters of APL+8 (for a 15 person party plus Cohorts, for a 4 person party, this would be like APL+40) and merge them into one, getting two encounters that are like 3 merged encounters apiece.in fact, one of the reasons we use 3.5 material, is so non-barbarians can get pounce with a 1 level dip because archers are so devastating.
we don't complain about broken archers, we use bows ourselves.
i know my group isn't traditional
we use stuff like Pirate Crews, Mercenary Companies, Bands of Brigands, Military Organizations, Thieves Guilds, Raiding Crews, Adventurers Companies and Similar Organizations to tie the groups together.
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i know my group isn't traditional
we use stuff like Pirate Crews, Mercenary Companies, Bands of Brigands, Military Organizations, Thieves Guilds, Raiding Crews, Adventurers Companies and Similar Organizations to tie the groups together.
Which is totally cool, it's just that unusually large groups in a game balanced for 4 people, the introduction of 3.5 material, and various other factors can create massive changes in the gaming dynamic.
The way that various environmental factors are considered can change things too. When you're using ship-based combat, do the guys on the other ship hunkered by the rail get cover bonuses? Same for fighting in the woods. When you're busily galloping across the plains, do you only run into half-naked orc barbarians, or have enemies heard about this roving army of horse-riding snipers and caused a massive boom in the tower shield industry as they start preparing for your inevitable appearance?I assume that most wizards and clerics have heard news of this traveling artillery unit and are now cranking out scrolls of Wind Wall, the sale of which will help finance their next Wish spell or build that shiny new temple?
I'm not entirely sure if any of that was sarcastic or not, because it's all stuff that would probably come up in our games.....
That being said, yes, there are types of games where the characters have lots of wide open spaces to play with (plains, oceanic, aerial). But there also numerous environments (forest, urban, sewer, dungeon, cavernous, magical terrain, aquatic [underwater], etc.) where they do not, and I daresay that most published materials use the latter, not the former.
I got a gunslinger in my grp. For a couple of lvls..did not miss at all. Hes got a high dex coupled with touch ac not to mention taking a 5 step whenever melee came up on him so he can atk without aoo. Needless to say, even he felt it was op.
We came to agreement that he would no longer target touch ac but reg ac and in exchange wegot rid of the misfire/weapon exploding mechanic. The rest is left the same, if he wants to use touch ac he uses up a grit for that round of attacks etc etc. Needless to say, hhe's is still a badass, only difference is now he's missing every so often and now has a reason to use the trips/etcs. Hes happy, the grps happy,......seriously just that simple tweak kept his badassery but down a lower to a managenble lvl.
i know my group isn't traditional
we use stuff like Pirate Crews, Mercenary Companies, Bands of Brigands, Military Organizations, Thieves Guilds, Raiding Crews, Adventurers Companies and Similar Organizations to tie the groups together.
Which is totally cool, it's just that unusually large groups in a game balanced for 4 people, the introduction of 3.5 material, and various other factors can create massive changes in the gaming dynamic.
The way that various environmental factors are considered can change things too. When you're using ship-based combat, do the guys on the other ship hunkered by the rail get cover bonuses? Same for fighting in the woods. When you're busily galloping across the plains, do you only run into half-naked orc barbarians, or have enemies heard about this roving army of horse-riding snipers and caused a massive boom in the tower shield industry as they start preparing for your inevitable appearance?
I assume that most wizards and clerics have heard news of this traveling artillery unit and are now cranking out scrolls of Wind Wall, the sale of which will help finance their next Wish spell or build that shiny new temple?I'm not entirely sure if any of that was sarcastic or not, because it's all stuff that would probably come up in our games.....
That being said, yes, there are types of games where the characters have lots of wide open spaces to play with (plains, oceanic, aerial). But there also numerous environments (forest, urban, sewer, dungeon, cavernous, magical terrain, aquatic [underwater], etc.) where they do not, and I daresay that most published materials use the latter, not the former.
we run into a diverse lot
most of our foes tend to be archers, so we loot their bows
tower shields and scrolls of wind wall are in high demand, but not sufficient supply
and the guys hunkered by the rail do get cover, so do people in forests
a lot of them do better in melee, we all own a horse or few, and we all carry composite bows, doesn't mean we are all snipers
but a lot of people assume we are a ranged cavalry unit
our foes use tower shields and scrolls of wind wall, but most of the time, they use similar tactics.
we weren't the first horse archers, we merely adopted the tactic after being badly hurt by foes that used it.
a lot of us, are former melee who became switch hitters as a survivial tactic
encounters are balanced for a group of 50 PCs, to balance 15 PCs, 15 Cohorts, and 10 Pets. so we face a lot of class leveled humanoids who also use horse riding snipers, the tactic that wounded us countless times, the tactics we adopted and use against our foes.
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encounters are balanced for a group of 50 PCs, to balance 15 PCs, 15 Cohorts, and 10 Pets. so we face a lot of class leveled humanoids who also use horse riding snipers, the tactic that wounded us countless times, the tactics we adopted and use against our foes.
Sounds like your "encounters" are pitched battles that might be better played in Warhammer Fantasy Battles!