So, my players, who are mostly members of my family, really don't like having to pick and choose spells, but not all of them are happy with the limits on spells known of spontaneous casters. I explained to them about game balance issues; they said they (a) didn't care, it just wasn't fun for them, (b) fighters can swing their swords unlimited times per day and use their different feats (generally) unlimited times per day, and (c) the limits on spells per day already balances things out. So we're at an impasse. Some of them are fine with being sorcerors or oracles, but I want to make prepared casters a viable fun option.
I decided on a possible house rule solution. I haven't discussed it with my players yet because I want to ask opinions first. I'm going to basically give every prepared casters free "Fast Study" -- basically, preparation of all spells will take 15 minutes and preparation of an individual spell in an unused slot will take 1 minute. In addition, if they take 15 minutes they can switch out prepared spells they haven't already used for any spells they want. I will of course make sure to track limited duration spells during these times, and there will be possibility of patrols, wandering monsters, or time-limited situations that make such preparation time untenable. I'd like to know if anyone thinks this would cause severe problems?
In exchange for this boost of power for prepared casters, I'll probably give spontaneous casters additional spells known, spells per day or possibly an extra feat. If anyone would like to comment on what that particular thing should be, I'd appreciate it. I'm leaning to additional spells known, myself.
Thanks.
That's probably not going to convince any of them to play a prepared caster if they hate the mechanic. Honestly, what I'd do if they don't care about power issues is this: make the sorc and oracle archetypes of the wizard and cleric, exchanging all non-spellcasting stuff for the bloodline/mystery stuff. Then have it work like in Arcana Unearthed (I think it's that anyway - Monte Cook's alternate PHB), where you prepare a number of spells per day but then cast within those spells spontaneously (so you prepare, say, magic missile, shield, mage armor, and grease - you can spend all your spells per day on mage armor, or on magic missile, or one of each, or whatever, but you have t o ait til you prepare again to change your list; metamagics work by preparing silent fireball or whatever, but otherwise follow the same rules as any spell).
They don't hate the mechanic itself, but the lack of flexibility it gives them. That's an interesting idea, though, and I'd have to compare its possibilities. How many spells per day and spells prepared per day would you suggest, say, a 4th level wizard have in such a case?
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I used to play with the rule that prepared casters could cast the spells they prepped in any combination. So a wizard prepares magic missile, shield and grease. He could cast each spell once, magic missile twice and shield once or grease three times.
Now this is a serious hit to the sorcerer and oracle. Basically you have a couple of options: Give sorcerers a wizard's spellcasting (they are differentiated by their casting stay and whether they have bloodlines or school powers), give an Oracle a Cleric's spellcasting (they are differentiated by casting stat and domain vs curse/mystery)
If everyone at your table is happy with it then you don't even need to worry about balance issues at the other end of the table. :-)
They don't hate the mechanic itself, but the lack of flexibility it gives them. That's an interesting idea, though, and I'd have to compare its possibilities. How many spells per day and spells prepared per day would you suggest, say, a 4th level wizard have in such a case?
Same as they currently do, they just have the flexibility to cast what they want within that.
Change Spell Mastery.
Not only can they prepare the spells without a spellbook, but now they can spontaneously cast them as well.
Giving them unlimited spontaneous casting won't break the game in an obvious way until later levels, but when it hits it'll be shortchanging the non casters. In my experience it's about clvl 10 or 12. Even then its not egregious since the casters start to outshine the non casters at clvl 14 anyway.
The feat swap solution let's the players pick they're favorite spells to spam. That's usually what they really want, with the option of casting anything.
Or, you could up the spells known by 2 or 3 per level.
The thing is, part of preperation is actually knowing how the spells work. If your players are to lazy to map out spells memorized for the day they might be to lazy to actually read and retain the spell descriptions, that's just more work for you.
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I wouldn't go out off my way to boost spellcasters, if they do not like to play them why would you want to promote them, it shouldn't make much difference for you from the GM seat, presumably making things easier on you.
If you give full spellcasters bonus feats you most definately would have to give other characters something extra as well.
Although you might tinker with prepared casters, I wouldn't tinker with spontaneous casters to "compensate" them - it seems self defeating to me:
Your players don't like prepared casters as things currently stand so (if it bothers you or if you want to broaden their horizons) it makes sense to boost those classes' abilities somewhat as you've suggested - to remove some of the impediments your players perceive. If you also boost spontaneous casters, you're decreasing the perceived worth of a prepared caster again - wizards might be more attractive, but so are the new "super-sorcerers".
Personally, I wouldn't stress over it - let people play whatever they want and eventually someone will try a wizard. If you are going to tinker though, I'd treat "game balance" as something specific to your group and how you play. Not as some objective, measurable thing.
I like the idea of wizards/clerics being able to cast their spells in any combination. What I'd suggest for the spont casters would be to just jump their spell progression by one level. So a 3rd level sorcerer has the spell slots of a 4th level sorcerer. It's easy to do and remember (just look one row further down), and it makes the distinction "My spells are fixed, but I can cast more of them" vs "My spells change each day, but I can't cast as many" which preserves the power vs. versatility split.
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I fail to see the problem. They are enjoying the game as it is. Why can't you?
You can get your prepared spellcaster fix by throwing wizards and clerics at them. You might even challenge them by creating situations in-game where prepared spellcaster's versatility could come in handy. Or use an NPC to show them where the advantages are.
If that doesn't work, let it lie. You are just trying to create a problem where none exists.
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Will they be ok with fighters getting *all* the fighter feats after meeting BAB requirement? Because that's what they are asking for. Seriously, if they don't want to be limited by sorcerer/oracle spells known limit let them exchange the spells known from time to time if they make a special quest appropriate to their bloodline/mystery.
Or just make a session of Ars Magica for them. (yup, 4th edition is free).
One thing I've noted.
Sorcerers are like Wizards for new players. That's not a dig. Sometimes a player just wants to keep it simple.
We just got rid of the sorcerer and allowed wizards to cast the way sorcerers currently do (spontaneously). Has not created any problems and was very easy to put into play.
We still used intelligence as the primary, as I never liked the idea of using charisma - I think that was just an effort to reduce it being a dump-stat for folks.
I wouldn't go out off my way to boost spellcasters, if they do not like to play them why would you want to promote them, it shouldn't make much difference for you from the GM seat, presumably making things easier on you.
If you give full spellcasters bonus feats you most definately would have to give other characters something extra as well.
I agree with this. Casters are already arguably the most powerful characters; making them even more powerful will just punish you once your players are drawn to select one from the bonus powers. If they don't like the basic idea of a caster, don't try tempting them into changing their preferences.
They don't hate the mechanic itself, but the lack of flexibility it gives them.
What level are these players anyway? I'll agree that low level mages are tricky and run out of oomph quickly, but a high level wizard is the most versatile class in the game.
I concur with Remco Sommeling, Troubleshooter, and Corlindale. Prepared classes are fine as is (and still the most powerful classes in the game), you just need to look around for ways to make them more flexible through in-game options (like those that Corlindale suggested).
If they still don't like prepared casters, there's a dozen other classes they can choose from.
Here are some ideas which maintain preparation as the basic mechanic, augmenting them with more spontaneity. I'm making these options extremely generous, so I recommend toning them down to the lowest level at which your players will accept them (don't let them know what they could have, though):
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We just got rid of the sorcerer and allowed wizards to cast the way sorcerers currently do (spontaneously). Has not created any problems and was very easy to put into play.
We still used intelligence as the primary, as I never liked the idea of using charisma - I think that was just an effort to reduce it being a dump-stat for folks.
I'm more inclined to go the other way, the mathematical super-mind wizard doesn't appeal to me at all. Magic as a talent or force of personality is much more satisfying to me.
I was considering doing away with prepared spellcasters as is and replace them with spontaneous casters, basically making magic charisma based overall, I feel it jives well with how SLA and UMD work too.
Maybe you could try the Gradient Wizard Spellcasting.
Basically, in time, all your spells become spontaneous.
One variant of this I suggested was giving casters a limited number of spells known (say, that of a sorcerer 1 level higher, so they don't have nerfed spell casting) that they can cast spontaneously, cantrips and any spells that are at least 4 levels below the highest spell level they are able to can be used at will. To compensate for that, their spells per day is that of a generalist wizard, instead of a sorcerer.
Besides the limited spells known, they have 1 (maybe 2) spell slots of each spell level that they can prepare any spell, like a wizard or cleric.
So basically, they can cast as a sorcerer (without the delayed spell casting) a limited number of spells. And can add an unlimited number of extra spells to their list, but these extra spells use a separate spell slot (like the cleric's domain spell).
They would be stronger than tier 2, but probably a bit weaker than (well-played) tier 1 classes.
However, as people pointed out, buffing spell casters is generally not a good idea, as they are way too powerful as they are.
Wait, they want the flexibility of prepared spellcasting, but hate prepared spellcasting? They want the thing they hate? Well, ok...
The spells-per-day most certainly do not "balance it out". Citation: Designers of 3e, 3.5e, and PF.
Limit them to their # of spells a day but allow them to use any of the spells they know as part of that #. So is after modifiers they have 5 spells per day, let them use any spells as part of that 5.
I also have allowed Magic Missile (or a similar 1st level attack spell) to be used at will but a ranged touch attack is required each time.
They want the thing they hate?
They want the flexibility of spells and unlimited number of spells known without having to deal with the "you don't have that memorized right now" spell slots issue.
Limit them to their # of spells a day but allow them to use any of the spells they know as part of that #. So is after modifiers they have 5 spells per day, let them use any spells as part of that 5.
The problem with this is when you get to the Wizard, who can essentially have an unlimited number of spells known, being able to cast any of those spells at any time.
Which, as I just stated, is pretty much what the players seem to want.
But methinks that's a bit broken, don't you?
Limit them to their # of spells a day but allow them to use any of the spells they know as part of that #. So is after modifiers they have 5 spells per day, let them use any spells as part of that 5.The problem with this is when you get to the Wizard, who can essentially have an unlimited number of spells known, being able to cast any of those spells at any time.
Which, as I just stated, is pretty much what the players seem to want.
But methinks that's a bit broken, don't you?
Yes, as you level you'd need to tweak it the # of spells per level they can use per day as in the RAW. So if they can cast/know 3 3rd level spells that's it. But they still have the ability to cast whatever they want in the 3rd level spell list.
OR, the DM could add tweak it more and say the PCs get one slot per level that is open to any spell but have to prepare the rest.
Limit them to their # of spells a day but allow them to use any of the spells they know as part of that #. So is after modifiers they have 5 spells per day, let them use any spells as part of that 5.The problem with this is when you get to the Wizard, who can essentially have an unlimited number of spells known, being able to cast any of those spells at any time.
Which, as I just stated, is pretty much what the players seem to want.
But methinks that's a bit broken, don't you?
It is.
This has been tried before. Their are a lot of people that hate the Vancian Magic System. In my experience every attempt to allow full range spontaneous casting, with sorcerer slots no less, has ended badly. At low levels it's not a big deal. At or around level 6 however it gets silly, by 9 the casters are blowing the non spellcasters out of the water, by 12 the other classes are feeling useless, at 14 they are useless.
The problem is not in spells known or spells per day. The problem is the spells themselves, they just weren't designed to be used by a Harry Potter wizard. Allowing total spell recall is unbalancing in the standard campaign. Virtually every designer and developer has acknowledged this at some point or another. Vancian magic isn't just a Gygaxian Legacy, it's hardwired into the game's core spell design.
There are plenty of systems that allow total spell recall, the balanced ones don't have 40 or 50 spells per level. They don't generally incorporate massive damage components or "auto lose" features like many of the iconic D&D spells.
The problem the OP has is that to make some of his players satisfied he will tick off others. Fighters and rogues and barbys and monks face some difficult issues at high levels, the total spell recall magic system just exacerbates those issues. He wants his players to find prepped casters more attractive, but needs a way to do it without making the non casters obsolete.
Total spell recall works fine in an E6 type of game, it's maybe preferable there. Spell Points are a solution but they've never caught on as a default system for the simple reason that the number of GMs that find it unbalancing is in the majority.
Now I could be wrong, but my old group tried it in 3.0, it was a failure by level 8. Now some things have changed since then, but not enough to convince me to try to DM that scenario again. Managing the now altered CR for the party became a nightmare and I was forced to meta game encounters against a party that slowly turned all caster. In certain campaigns I could see it working, but not the default type of game.
Now in 2nd Ed. The wizard had a cap on spells known. If you want to resurect that, maybe. Point buy will shoot that down as a balance enforcement though. Another option is to limit the spells they actually encounter, no found spell-books and scrolls of unusual spells become rare I play with some serious min/maxers alongside more casual types. If you have the more casual style of players it could work but a single optimizer will quickly derail a game if not checked. This is a path to "God Wizards".
I believe hacing access to basically all spells is actually more of a problem than the existence overpowered spells.
Mass Icy Prison is probably too good, same goes for Gate and Time Stop.
But while these spells could probably be nerfed a bit, if the caster had access to only one or two of them, it'd not be so bad. The problem is that a wizard can have access to all of them and even more.
Clerics/Druids automatically have access to whatever broken spells are in their spell lists.
That is more problematic than any single broken spell could ever be. (Although OP spells tend to be *very* OP).
That said... I don't think any character should be able to simply cast things like Miracle/Wish.
Use the Wizard Spellbook.
A normal spellbook have 100 pages, a travelling spellbook have 50.
Each spell take one page per level.A wizard will probably not be able to place ALL his spells in one spellbook, so he will need to switch it.
If he want to cast a spell spontanenously, he need to draw the book (move), open the book and find the right spell (move) and read it (see spell). Reading the same spell again, remove the ''find the right spell'' step.
Exemple:
Mirona want to cast a Magic Missile spell. For her first round, she draw her spellbook and prepare it to the ''magic missile'' spell. The second round, she read the spell who take effect as usual. On the third round, she want to cast a second ''magic missile'', she read the spell again.
An enemy can Sunder or Steal the spellbook.
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Let them play what they want to play.
Increase the number of spell known for the spontaneous caster?
Or find a different game for the to play.
Harsh, maybe, but, well...
Unless you feel comfortable chucking some key points of character creation/abilities/progression out the window, the classes are what they are.
One can choose EITHER unlimited flexibility OR more spells per day...
I don't want to accuse people I've never met of unpleasant habits, and certainly don't wish to insult your fambly members, but I would personally recommend a rather hard line on this issue. Pick one and live with it: it's what the rest of us do...
Players always want more. It is part of their job to try and make the best PC they can.
But a game without limits isn't a game.
Just saw this, felt it was missing something. A game without limits is still a game, it just doesn't look like what you're used to. I run a game that is specifically about blowing past what are normally considered the limits of power in other games. I would agree that it doesn't work well in a 3.X type of system (or Shadowrun, WoD, GURPS, etc).
Just saw this, felt it was missing something. A game without limits is still a game, it just doesn't look like what you're used to. I run a game that is specifically about blowing past what are normally considered the limits of power in other games. I would agree that it doesn't work well in a 3.X type of system (or Shadowrun, WoD, GURPS, etc).Players always want more. It is part of their job to try and make the best PC they can.
But a game without limits isn't a game.
It still has limits though, you just set the bar higher.
It still has limits though, you just set the bar higher.Just saw this, felt it was missing something. A game without limits is still a game, it just doesn't look like what you're used to. I run a game that is specifically about blowing past what are normally considered the limits of power in other games. I would agree that it doesn't work well in a 3.X type of system (or Shadowrun, WoD, GURPS, etc).Players always want more. It is part of their job to try and make the best PC they can.
But a game without limits isn't a game.
I guess there's a limit, kind of... but that bar is so high that it doesn't even matter. The game is about killing gods. In order to do so though, you need to take on more and more power. Too much power and you risk becoming a god... and a target for destruction. But when I run the game, I don't hold players back from crossing that line, its their choice, which is essentially the point of the game. Do you try and hold on to your mortal nature, or do you cross the line into god-hood? Filled in with a lot of how and why.
So yeah, you can kill gods, kill mortals without rolling dice and have the ability to alter the very fabric of reality. You can even remove concepts from existence, or an emotion from all of humanity. So far, no one has ever asked to do something that I've said was impossible. I might have said they need more power to do it, but its never impossible.
This is also a very specific game. It was built from the ground up to do this and has been in a 4 year design process (but will be released for free in a couple months in PDF format). I've tried running it as a campaign and it is difficult, it runs much better as a one-shot, or series of stand alone episodes.
I dunno if this is a workable option for you Irontruth, but have you tried them at psionics? I'm curious if they would like it a bit more than the Vancian options. Still has a limited spell selection much like sorcerer, but the powers tend to have multiple options per power, plus the ability to augment as needed, can give a bit more versatility.
Heh, we're on a tangent now, nearly unrelated to the OP. my pair of posts was only to show that a game without limits is possible.
I love psionics, I haven't played with the newest version from that 3PP, but I think it still has an inherent flaw of most power/mana point systems. A growing pool makes your highest level abilities more and more available as you go on. You essentially get to trade castings of your 1st level spells for 9th level spells, which is a little overpowered. I'd rather see a point pool that grows very slowly, but where the costs to use powers is decreased over time. So your highest level powers are always a large % of your points and your lowest are easy to use over and over.
I played a Psion/Wizard in a gestalt campaign. He was pretty much unstoppable, my favorite scenes with him though we're the ones where he didn't use that power though, because he wanted to adhere to his LG alignment.
Story wise, the best restrictions on power is the desire for something obtainable only by not using it.
As a side note, the game I run is called Mythender. I'm willing to run a session of it for anyone in the Minneapolis area, and I'll also be running it at GenCon (the writer/developer of the game is an honored guest as well this year)
I've played a Psion and a Wilder before (3.5 versions, admittedly) and didn't really notice them being any more powerful than the normal arcane casters, myself. A little more versatile than the wizard, sure, but no more broken.
Then again I'm used to a 3.5/Pathfinder hybrid game with Incarnum, Tome of Magic, and Tome of Battle so perhaps my bar of "what's broken" might be set a bit higher than some people, hehe >_>
Yeah, I just noticed when I played my Psion that I could load up almost entirely on my top 2-3 levels of powers for what used during the day. It isn't necessarily broken, but an expanding mana pool does create a subtle shift in power that favors the high level abilities.
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Just saw this, felt it was missing something. A game without limits is still a game, it just doesn't look like what you're used to.Players always want more. It is part of their job to try and make the best PC they can.
But a game without limits isn't a game.
Sounds like Calvinball.
Maybe I'm just too much of a newbie, but wouldn't changing the rules to suit a whim completely negate the point of both prepared and spont casters?
Sounds like Calvinball.
The score is still Q to 12!
Sounds like Calvinball.The score is still Q to 12!
I played the Ace of Clubs. You have to retake that shot!
It's an even numbered Monday, so you also get two strikes for playing a club.
*steals the ball and jumps on one foot to the nearest maple tree*
Out of bounds! Free throw!
I've been witness to two approaches to mitigating the effect of 'Vancian' magic on the D20 system.
As mentioned up thread, the first is to allow the caster to use their spell book as a reusable non consumed scroll. I'd strip the caster of the ability to prepare anything beyond Read Magic or spells correlating to the Spell Mastery feat.
The other method is to allow prepared casters to re-prepare spells throughout the day. Instead of cobbling together a system of spontaneous casting without stealing the thunder of the sorcerer, give the prepared caster opportunity to prepare their spell slots more than once a day.
A caster must spend 15 minutes getting their head space right, and then spend one minute per spell level of spells being prepared, to set their slots with spells to cast. This process can be repeated as often as desired per day, at the rate of 15+1 minutes per spell level.
So, a 5th level caster can reset/refill their slots with a half hour worth of 'meditation' and preparation.
Personally, I prefer the first option, as it makes the spellbook something other than an encumbering bit of backdrop dressing. A caster worth their beans will go to great lengths to protect their books or keep duplicates.
You could always try limiting the number of unique spells they can cast in a day.
Maybe give 'em a Memory Pool that starts at 2. Whenever they gain a level, their pool increases by 1.
When they cast a spell for the first time in a day, even a cantrip, they use up a memory point. No more memory points means they can't remember whatever new spell they want, no matter how much they think about it.
Memory can be refreshed once for each time they refresh your spell slots, by praying or studying a class spellbook for an hour.
Spells can be cast without using memory if they pray or study their spellbook for spell level x 5 minutes as part of the casting.
Spellbooks contain all the information a caster needs to cast every spell on their list.
Metamagic is applied instantly, but each new combination of spell and feats they cast in a given day costs a memory point.
Spontaneous casting from class features does not use memory points.
EDIT: Now I think about it, this setup needs to introduce some kind of inferior effect wizards can burn spell slots on, so they don't end up with slots they can't use. Something like a damage-per-spell-level attack with little in the way of redeeming features.
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So here are the potential (and nearly reasonable) options you have from what's been stated:
1. Wizards cast spells from spellbooks.
2. Use Psionic Classes instead of the Arcane Ones.
And option 3: Make a new magic system. If you're looking for a good example of a "Cast any of your spells, don't prepare them in advance, use a wide variety of spells" system, I'd look at Ghosts of Albion.
The basics of the system are:
You make spellcasting rolls to cast spells. If a spell is under (half?) your max spell level, you can cast it as much as you want. If it's above that, there's a fatigue penalty that gets applied to all everything you do (like how a negative level works) until you sit down and rest for 2 hours (the penalty applies to spellcasting too). On a failed spellcasting roll you roll on like, a botch table, to see how it ends badly (to offset the power of magic), the higher you rolled while still failing to cast the spell, the worst the effects get on the botch table.
Then you take your spell progression and make it so youre not using 9th level spells at top level, maybe slow down to bard spell progression.
For your saves, you could base them on 1/2 class level instead of spell level, that way you dont have crappy save DCs for your top level spells.
Should be easy enough to convert, and should allow less broken spamcasters than the unlimited wizard.