I originally wanted a human witch, but the ARG convinced me than elf would be better after level 3. However, I now cannot figure out what is the best hex progression.
I want Evil Eye, Cackle, Slumber and Misfortune. Misfortune is the only hex than can effect mindless foes, so I really want that as early as possible. Flight is also a given at level 4.
1) Slumber (elf specialty)
1) Extra Hex: Evil Eye
2) Cackle
3) Extra Hex: Misfortune
4) Flight
In short, I'm not sure whether I should take misfortune at level 1 so that I can debuff undead and evil eye at 3. But, without cackle, misfortune is pretty lackluster.
Why is Elf better after level 3?
Why is Elf better after level 3?
A human can take extra hex twice at level 1, meaning they can start with evil eye, misfortune and cackle. This allows them to debuff any sort of enemy, and maintain it.
However, elves get +2 spell pen, +2 racial to initiative or concentration, +1 slumber DCs, and +1 to ac and initiative from higher dex as well. All of this is worth more than a feat, 1 hp (from con penalty) and 1 skill point per level.
Once an elf hits 3, they can have all the essential hexes for a debuffing build, but a human starts out with a very versatile set already.
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+1 slumber DCs
Dreamspeaker: A few elves have the ability to tap into the power of sleep, dreams, and prescient reverie. Elves with this racial trait add +1 to saving throw DCs for spells of the divination school and sleep effects they cast. In addition, elves with a Charisma of 15 or higher may use dream once per day as a spell-like ability (caster level is equal to the elf’s character level). This racial trait replaces the elven immunities racial trait.
The Slumber Hex is not a spell. Its a hex.
So this alt racial trait would not apply, correct? I guess it boils down to if they are "casting a sleep" effect when using a hex on someone.
Why is Elf better after level 3?A human can take extra hex twice at level 1, meaning they can start with evil eye, misfortune and cackle. This allows them to debuff any sort of enemy, and maintain it.
However, elves get +2 spell pen, +2 racial to initiative or concentration, +1 slumber DCs, and +1 to ac and initiative from higher dex as well. All of this is worth more than a feat, 1 hp (from con penalty) and 1 skill point per level.
Once an elf hits 3, they can have all the essential hexes for a debuffing build, but a human starts out with a very versatile set already.
Ok. I new that. That's core stuff. You mentioned ARG so I thought maybe they had a new witch favored class option like an extra hex every 6 levels or something.
In my opinion, there are seven high quality hexes: Cackle, Evil Eye, Flight, Fortune, Healing, Misfortune, Slumber.
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Since you get 5 hexes before reaching level 10 and starting to choose Major Hexes, you may want to take the feat Extra Hex up to two times.
- Cackle - Outstanding when used correctly, but not useful until you have at least one good hex to use it with, preferably more than one. I love it with Fortune. Also, because cackling uses your move action, this hex is a great argument for having a mount!
- Evil Eye - This is a really popular hex, but I don't suggest learning it until level 8 when it changes from a -2 to -4 penalty. Giving a -2 penalty just isn't worth spending an action.
- Flight - Great at 5th level when it really grants flight, but not before then. Your 6th level hex is early enough.
- Fortune - Amazing!
- Outside of combat, a Diplomacy, Disable Device, or another skill roll can be an adventure saver.
- If you don't have prep time, you can toss a "be awesome" blessing on an ally at the key moment during a fight.
- With a few rounds to prepare, you can Fortune, Cackle, Haste a party into awesome mode! - Healing - Situationally good. It takes a lot of pressure off of healers to supply post-combat healing, and it scales a bit, but since Witches can memorize healing spells anyway, it's not critical. I'd only take this if your party is low on healing, but take it early if you do.
- Misfortune - A nasty debuff, and your only one that isn't mind effecting. Combining this with Cackle is a potential win-button against certain foes.
- Slumber - Great! This is a solid attack at all levels, but tricky use use well. Try to aim it at uninjured enemies rather than those who have already been engaged by your melee buddies and are half way to dead. Also, don't waste time using it on those who are immune or highly resistant.
My party has a Druid as the only other one who can cast healing spells, and he prefers not to, making Healing worth a feat. For my Witch, I have them planned in this order:
- Level 1 - Slumber
- Feat 1 - Healing
- Level 2 - Fortune
- Feat 3 - Cackle
- Level 4 - Misfortune
- Level 6 - Flight
- Level 8 - Evil Eye
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+1 slumber DCsDreamspeaker: A few elves have the ability to tap into the power of sleep, dreams, and prescient reverie. Elves with this racial trait add +1 to saving throw DCs for spells of the divination school and sleep effects they cast. In addition, elves with a Charisma of 15 or higher may use dream once per day as a spell-like ability (caster level is equal to the elf’s character level). This racial trait replaces the elven immunities racial trait.The Slumber Hex is not a spell. Its a hex.
So this alt racial trait would not apply, correct?
Slumber is clearly a sleep effect. It applies.
A few people on earlier threats interpreted "sleep effects they cast" as a reference to spells.
However, some hexs, like Flight, make reference to casting or the witch's caster level, such as Healing and Coven. Note how Coven implies that hexes use caster level.
In short, it's hard to argue that Slumber wouldn't benefit from the trait.
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+1 slumber DCsDreamspeaker: A few elves have the ability to tap into the power of sleep, dreams, and prescient reverie. Elves with this racial trait add +1 to saving throw DCs for spells of the divination school and sleep effects they cast. In addition, elves with a Charisma of 15 or higher may use dream once per day as a spell-like ability (caster level is equal to the elf’s character level). This racial trait replaces the elven immunities racial trait.The Slumber Hex is not a spell. Its a hex.
So this alt racial trait would not apply, correct?
Slumber is clearly a sleep effect. It applies.
A few people on earlier threats interpreted "sleep effects they cast" as a reference to spells.
However, some hexs, like Flight, make reference to casting or the witch's caster level, such as Healing and Coven. Note how Coven implies that hexes use caster level.
In short, it's hard to argue that Slumber wouldn't benefit from the trait.
I don't think its that hard to argue. For instance this guy lists several good reasons that it shouldn't apply.
Add in the fact that Slumber is INCREDIBLY powerful for someone to have at first level. Simply because of the fact that you could KILL a 20HD creature in two rounds using this hex.
That's good enough reason for me as a GM to not allow further boosting of the Hex's DC thru an alternate racial trait.
+1 slumber DCsDreamspeaker: A few elves have the ability to tap into the power of sleep, dreams, and prescient reverie. Elves with this racial trait add +1 to saving throw DCs for spells of the divination school and sleep effects they cast. In addition, elves with a Charisma of 15 or higher may use dream once per day as a spell-like ability (caster level is equal to the elf’s character level). This racial trait replaces the elven immunities racial trait.The Slumber Hex is not a spell. Its a hex.
So this alt racial trait would not apply, correct?
Slumber is clearly a sleep effect. It applies.
A few people on earlier threats interpreted "sleep effects they cast" as a reference to spells.
However, some hexs, like Flight, make reference to casting or the witch's caster level, such as Healing and Coven. Note how Coven implies that hexes use caster level.
In short, it's hard to argue that Slumber wouldn't benefit from the trait.
I don't think its that hard to argue. For instance this guy lists several good reasons that it shouldn't apply.
Add in the fact that Slumber is INCREDIBLY powerful for someone to have at first level. Simply because of the fact that you could KILL a 20HD creature in two rounds using this hex.
That's good enough reason for me as a GM to not allow further boosting of the Hex's DC thru an alternate racial trait.
The guy says you only cast spells and spell-like abilities over and over again. I can find no support for this.
I do find eight instances that state you cast a hex or have hexes referencing caster level. In common language, people also talk about casting a hex. So saying that the word "casting" only refers to spells and spell-like abilities seems factually incorrect.
I guess you could argue that you cast some hexes and don't cast other hexes, but that seems inconsistent to say the least and violates common usage.
Evil Eye - This is a really popular hex, but I don't suggest learning it until level 8 when it changes from a -2 to -4 penalty. Giving a -2 penalty just isn't worth spending an action.
Depends upon other the composition of the party and other abilities - with cackle evil eye allows bestowing -2 to saving throws for as long as you don't have to move, making it really great entree for any save or suck spell/hex.
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You cast spells but not supernatural abilities, there is a good argument to be made either way for spell likes.
Whether a spell is arcane or divine, and whether a character prepares spells in advance or chooses them on the spot, casting a spell works the same way.
Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.
Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.
If a character class grants a spell-like ability that is not based on an actual spell, the ability’s effective spell level is equal to the highest-level class spell the character can cast, and is cast at the class level the ability is gained.
The first paragraph tells us just how different spell like abilities are, however the second paragraph gives us a very important sentence:
"In all other ways a spell-like ability functions just like a spell."
Now clearly you can't use metamagic feats on spell like abilities so they are not exactly spells... but for effects that change how spells work spell like abilities should generally be affected as well since they function like spells in all ways not mentioned in the spell like ability description.
However we have the following from the FAQ
Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as having that spell on its spell list for the purpose of activating spell completion or spell trigger items?
No. A spell-like ability is not a spell, having a spell-like ability is not part of a class's spell list, and therefore doesn't give the creature the ability to activate spell completion or spell trigger items.
Which tells us that at the end of the day a spell like ability isn't a spell.
We also have this from the FAQ which again reiterates that spell casting is spell casting, not sources other than other spell casting:
Items as Spells: Does using a potion, scroll, staff, or wand count as "casting a spell" for purposes of feats and special abilities like Augment Summoning, Spell Focus, an evoker's ability to do extra damage with evocation spells, bloodline abilities, and so on?
No. Unless they specifically state otherwise, feats and abilities that modify spells you cast only affect actual spellcasting, not using magic items that emulate spellcasting or work like spellcasting.
However supernatural abilities are nothing like that:
Supernatural Abilities (Su)
These can't be disrupted in combat and generally don't provoke attacks of opportunity. They aren't subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or dispel magic, and don't function in antimagic areas.
As you can see there is much less argument to be made for supernatural abilities which have nothing to do with spells, spell casting, or anything that has an effect on those activities.
Ability Focus becomes an amazing feat in conjunction with the various hexes...downside, you have to take it once for each hex
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Ability Focus becomes an amazing feat in conjunction with the various hexes...downside, you have to take it once for each hex
Ability Focus is a monster feat. You'd have to get your GM to houserule to allow non monsters to take monster feats.
Ability Focus becomes an amazing feat in conjunction with the various hexes...downside, you have to take it once for each hexAbility Focus is a monster feat. You'd have to get your GM to houserule to allow non monsters to take monster feats.
Not quite, here is what the rules have to say on the subject:
Most of the following feats apply specifically to monsters, although some player characters might qualify for them (particularly Craft Construct).
It doesn't say you don't qualify simply because you are a player character, or that you have to ask your GM (anymore than you do for any other feat). It states that some player characters might qualify for these feats.
It says divination spells and sleep effects, so it should work with slumber, as it is a sleep effect. "Cast" doesn't really mean much; spell-likes are referred to as being cast, and I'm sure some Su abilities are, too. In any case, they could've just said divination and sleep spells if they meant for it to be spells only, and elves as of the APG (and still to the present AFAIK) had no way of getting a sleep effect as a spell-like. So...what else could they have meant when they wrote that than...sleep effects?
Certainly isn't 100% clear, of course. But a strong case can be made.
As for monster feats... where does it say you need DM permission to take monster feats (any more than you need DM permission to take anything, ie, rule 0)? PF Society does not allow monster feats. The basic rules have no such restriction.
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Most of the following feats apply specifically to monsters, although some player characters might qualify for them (particularly Craft Construct).
As for monster feats... where does it say you need DM permission to take monster feats (any more than you need DM permission to take anything, ie, rule 0)? PF Society does not allow monster feats. The basic rules have no such restriction.
Ability Focus is typed Monster. Craft Construct is typed Item Creation, Monster.
I see a difference there. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong. But I'm fairly certain the Monster Feats question has been asked and answered somewhere else before.
Most of the following feats apply specifically to monsters, although some player characters might qualify for them (particularly Craft Construct).As for monster feats... where does it say you need DM permission to take monster feats (any more than you need DM permission to take anything, ie, rule 0)? PF Society does not allow monster feats. The basic rules have no such restriction.Ability Focus is typed Monster. Craft Construct is typed Item Creation, Monster.
I see a difference there. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong. But I'm fairly certain the Monster Feats question has been asked and answered somewhere else before.
Show me where typed monster has any sort of definition or rules to go with it.
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http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterFeats.html
Monster Feats
Most of the following feats apply specifically to monsters, although some player characters might qualify for them (particularly Craft Construct).
All of the feats under "Monster Feats" heading are Monster Feats. Any of the feats that are also applicable to non-monsters have more than one type. Item Creation or Combat.
Monster is a label.
Combat Feats
Any feat designated as a combat feat can be selected as a
fighter’s bonus feat. This designation does not restrict
characters of other classes from selecting these feats,
assuming that they meet the prerequisites.
Monster Feats
Most of the following feats apply specifically to monsters, although some player characters might qualify for them (particularly Craft Construct).
Some, not all, of the monster feats are allowed for PCs. A good indicator of if they are usable by non monsters would be if they have more than one type associated with that feat.
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It says divination spells and sleep effects, so it should work with slumber, as it is a sleep effect. "Cast" doesn't really mean much; spell-likes are referred to as being cast, and I'm sure some Su abilities are, too. In any case, they could've just said divination and sleep spells if they meant for it to be spells only, and elves as of the APG (and still to the present AFAIK) had no way of getting a sleep effect as a spell-like. So...what else could they have meant when they wrote that than...sleep effects?
Certainly isn't 100% clear, of course. But a strong case can be made.
As for monster feats... where does it say you need DM permission to take monster feats (any more than you need DM permission to take anything, ie, rule 0)? PF Society does not allow monster feats. The basic rules have no such restriction.
Yeah since it says "sleep effects", seems to me that the Slumber hex should be a valid use of it.
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Yeah since it says "sleep effects", seems to me that the Slumber hex should be a valid use of it.
So when it says "sleep effects you cast", the "effects" is a key word but "cast" can be tossed out the window?
That's intellectually dishonest.
spell-likes are referred to as being cast, and I'm sure some Su abilities are, too.
If you could find and cite an example, that would certainly affect this discussion. So if you know of one, please share it.
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Yeah since it says "sleep effects", seems to me that the Slumber hex should be a valid use of it.So when it says "sleep effects you cast", the "effects" is a key word but "cast" can be tossed out the window?
That's intellectually dishonest.
spell-likes are referred to as being cast, and I'm sure some Su abilities are, too.If you could find and cite an example, that would certainly affect this discussion. So if you know of one, please share it.
Here's one instance:
*Flight (Su): [FAQ] The witch grows lighter as she gains power, eventually gaining the ability to fly. At 1st level, the witch can use feather fall at will and gains a +4 racial bonus on Swim checks. At 3rd level, she can cast levitate once per day. At 5th level, she can fly, as per the spell, for a number of minutes per day equal to her level. These minutes do not need to be consecutive, but they must be spent in 1-minute increments. This hex only affects the witch.
And another:
Dream Haunter (Su): You can send your spirit to torment another being’s dreams. A number of times per week equal to 1 + your Charisma modifier, but only once per day, you can cast the spell nightmare. You must be at least 11th level before selecting this revelation. At 15th level, you can also pass on a message as part of the nightmare, as per the spell dream.
Those two were all I could find on a cursory check of some of the classes that have supernatural abilities, and they could of course be oversights, but they're both cases of supernatural abilities that replicate spell effects and still use the word "cast" in the description. That's what slumber is, really, it replicates a sleep spell as a supernatural ability. These two set precedence for me to say it should work.
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Hmm... Well, the first is actually a broader ability with multiple effects, only one of which is to cast something. So you don't really cast the hex, but the hex allows you to cast something else.
The second one... Hm... Interesting. Even so, this could be a case of "the exception proves the rule", in that this has to specify that you're casting because that's not the default. Or it could just be an oversight.
In any case, there's also the fact that Dream Haunter specifically says "cast" while Slumber does not. If we have precedent of some hexes specifically saying "cast" while another doesn't use that term, we can't assume the latter is handled the same way despite its different wording.
And just in case we need even more evidence, note that Dream Haunter doesn't say that you cast Dream Haunter - Dream Haunter lets you cast nightmare. So even if that's a true use of "cast", you're still not casting the hex.
I (currently) remain convinced that you don't "cast" Slumber.
Hmm... Well, the first is actually a broader ability with multiple effects, only one of which is to cast something. So you don't really cast the hex, but the hex allows you to cast something else.
The second one... Hm... Interesting. Even so, this could be a case of "the exception proves the rule", in that this has to specify that you're casting because that's not the default. Or it could just be an oversight.
In any case, there's also the fact that Dream Haunter specifically says "cast" while Slumber does not. If we have precedent of some hexes specifically saying "cast" while another doesn't use that term, we can't assume the latter is handled the same way despite its different wording.
And just in case we need even more evidence, note that Dream Haunter doesn't say that you cast Dream Haunter - Dream Haunter lets you cast nightmare. So even if that's a true use of "cast", you're still not casting the hex.
I (currently) remain convinced that you don't "cast" Slumber.
So, you cast spells, spell-likes, and some unnamed things granted by supernatural abilities, but are clearly not supernatural abilities?
Cute.
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Cute.I have thus far done my best to investigate the topic at hand impartially, showing respect for viewpoints contradictory to my own, without being patronizing or condescending.
Grow up and do the same.
I agree, let's not turn this into a flamewar. Jiggy's points have been valid, whether or not you agree with his conclusion.
As far as I can read the rules, if you go with super literal interpretation, you probably don't "cast" hexes, and therefore you can't get the +2 to the DC. I think the intent with the racial ability was probably to allow it, but it's probably contentious enough that you wouldn't want to use the rule for PFS play. I think it should definitely be brought up to a GM if you wish to play an elven witch.
Anyhow, we've severely derailed the thread with this one. Just to jump back on track, I highly recommend using human for your witch if you want her to be totally hex focused. If you're more spell-oriented, go with elf and use the dreamspeaker trait along with sleep SPELLS that you definitely CAST. :-D
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Thank you, cartmanbeck.
I personally won't venture a guess as to the intent of the elf trait, but I second your assertion that it's just fuzzy enough to not be a good idea in PFS and to warrant a quick preemptive check with your GM in a home game.
I also agree that humans are great for hex-based witches.
An example of using "cast" to refer to using supernatural abilities, sadly on another elven trait:
"Elves with this racial trait are immune to light-based blindness and dazzle effects, and are treated as one level higher when determining the effects of any light-based spell or effect they cast (including spell-like and supernatural abilities)."
I simply wish they were clearer on the Dreamspeaker trait, which has virtually identical wording.