I'm referring to the dual talent alternate race trait of the advanced race guide: in exchange for the bonus feat and the skilled trait you get a +2 to another attribute of your choice.
Am I mistaken in thinking that this make humans an even better race?
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I'm referring to the dual talent alternate race trait of the advanced race guide: in exchange for the bonus feat and the skilled trait you get a +2 to another attribute of your choice.
Am I mistaken in thinking that this make humans an even better race?
wut
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That sounds pretty badass to me, especially considering you could put that extra +2 into Int and get your 1 skill point/level back instantly.
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This seems like a great boon for MAD classes like monks, right? A monk could go 16/16/14/10/14/10 (or change those last three to 9/16/7 if you like) and be pretty solid. Or take Weapon Finesse and go 10/16/14/10/18/10. Not too shabby, and they're probably not hurting too bad on the loss of the feat or skill point.
It will be immensely appealing to some people, I can tell you that. Depending on how feat starved your build is, it can actually be a hindrance, but for classes which don't depend as much on feats to be good, it's a boon.
that is nice I completely missed that.
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It will be immensely appealing to some people, I can tell you that. Depending on how feat starved your build is, it can actually be a hindrance, but for classes which don't depend as much on feats to be good, it's a boon.
No class is feat starved. This is one of the silliest myths of forums.
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In a sense you are giving up +2 int and a bonus general feat for a +2 to something else. Honestly unless you're playin a class that's drowning in feats and skill points anyway (Monk is the only one I can imagine) I don't beleive it's worth it.
"Focused Study" struck me as the more ridiculous one, to be honest.
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In a sense you are giving up +2 int and a bonus general feat for a +2 to something else. Honestly unless you're playin a class that's drowning in feats and skill points anyway (Monk is the only one I can imagine) I don't beleive it's worth it.
A +2 to an attribute is better than many feats (not all, of course).
A +2 to Str is better than Weapon Focus with a melee weapon.
A +2 to Dex is better than Dodge.
A +2 to Con is better than Toughness.
A +2 to Int, Wis or Cha is better than Spell Focus.
I'm not the type of person to drool over one skill point per level, so the down side is pretty minor to me.
In a sense you are giving up +2 int and a bonus general feat for a +2 to something else. Honestly unless you're playin a class that's drowning in feats and skill points anyway (Monk is the only one I can imagine) I don't beleive it's worth it.A +2 to an attribute is better than many feats (not all, of course).
A +2 to Str is better than Weapon Focus with a melee weapon.
A +2 to Dex is better than Dodge.
A +2 to Con is better than Toughness.
A +2 to Int, Wis or Cha is better than Spell Focus.I'm not the type of person to drool over one skill point per level, so the down side is pretty minor to me.
You're forgetting the point where nearly all of those feats are prerequisites to other things. The appeal to a human is getting a lot of your stuff two levels earlier than everyone else. Stats don't help you with this.
I too, liked Focused Study a lot better.
That sounds pretty badass to me, especially considering you could put that extra +2 into Int and get your 1 skill point/level back instantly.
Unless you were already going to put it into intelligence, at which point, you are losing skills over a traditional human.
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It will be immensely appealing to some people, I can tell you that. Depending on how feat starved your build is, it can actually be a hindrance, but for classes which don't depend as much on feats to be good, it's a boon.No class is feat starved. This is one of the silliest myths of forums.
If you say so. I constantly run into problems where a build I want for a class I want to play is out of feats and have to begin to cut away cool stuff my character wanted to be able to do.
If you say so. I constantly run into problems where a build I want for a class I want to play is out of feats and have to begin to cut away cool stuff my character wanted to be able to do.It will be immensely appealing to some people, I can tell you that. Depending on how feat starved your build is, it can actually be a hindrance, but for classes which don't depend as much on feats to be good, it's a boon.No class is feat starved. This is one of the silliest myths of forums.
Me too.
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Since I don't have the book, can someone quote the exact wording of this? I just looked, and it's legal for Pathfinder Society. I would definitely consider this for my new sorcerer character, who doesn't really need the extra feat (but might kinda miss the extra skill point).
Also, what's this "Focused Study" that people have mentioned a couple of times? I haven't had a chance to look at my ARG yet. :(
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Focused Study: All humans are skillful, but some,
rather than being generalists, tend to specialize in a
handful of skills. At 1st, 8th, and 16th level, such humans
gain Skill Focus in a skill of their choice as a bonus feat.
This racial trait replaces the bonus feat trait
Dual Talent: Some humans are uniquely skilled at
maximizing their natural gifts. These humans pick two
ability scores and gain a +2 racial bonus in each of those
scores. This racial trait replaces the +2 bonus to any one
ability score, the bonus feat, and the skilled traits.
Thanks, lob!
the only way I have been able to follow this conversation is with my pdf open on the other screen
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I have to disagree about Focused Study being so awesome unless you start at high levels. Having to play through 7 levels of being worse than a half-elf before you get a single extra advantage seems kind of lame. And even then, if you're playing a character that really does want two instances of Skill Focus, you probably wanted that second one a lot earlier. Also I don't really care about 16th level, but that's just because I play PFS.
So I guess if you're starting at high levels and need the skill boosts it's decent, but only in that very specific circumstance.
I think I like Dual Talent better overall, because it opens up things that didn't work before, instead of mildly enhancing existing possibilities.
Dual Talent is good. Focused Study is omgwtfbbq if you were planning on taking a Skill Focus anyway.
The other one I really like is Silver Tongue. Decent static bonuses to Bluff and Diplomacy is decent, but Diplomacy increasing attitude by 3 steps instead of 2? GOLD.
Ughbash: You obviously haven't seen this feat yet:
Fast Learner
You progress gain extra versatility.
Prerequisites: Int 13, human.
Benefit: When you gain a level in a favored class,
you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead
of choosing either one or the other benefit or you can
choose an alternate class reward.
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Ughbash: You obviously haven't seen this feat yet:
Fast Learner
You progress gain extra versatility.
Prerequisites: Int 13, human.
Benefit: When you gain a level in a favored class,
you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead
of choosing either one or the other benefit or you can
choose an alternate class reward.
With this my wizard can be a true skill monkey without giving up HP.
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My roommates both think that dropping everything for an additional +2 to anything is amazing. I'm like "eff that, gimmie my feat." My theory: I can buy a belt or headband to fix my ability score deficiencies, I can't buy feats.
I think the fact that there is such a split on that matter tells us that it's balanced enough though.
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My roommates both think that dropping everything for an additional +2 to anything is amazing. I'm like "eff that, gimmie my feat." My theory: I can buy a belt or headband to fix my ability score deficiencies, I can't buy feats.
I think the fact that there is such a split on that matter tells us that it's balanced enough though.
I would agree with this.
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I guess I just feel like more concepts/builds are affected by getting to pick any two-stat combo than by getting to double-up on Skill Focus.The thing is that, unless you were attached to playing a human for thematic reasons (which I can respect if so), you could already pick from pretty much any physical/mental combo and, unlike Dual Talent, still get other racial benefits in the package. So really this only ends up changing things for the cases where you want a combination that's not already available, with the Str/Dex switch-hitter ranger or the Int/Wis mystic theurge being probably the most obvious.
Or if you like the dwarf's +WIS/CON, but can't afford the -CHA for your cleric. Or if you like the elf's +INT/DEX, but the -CON makes you nervous. Or if you want +STR/CON for your barbarian (and again, without a minus). Or if you want +WIS/CHA for a cleric (focused on casting and channeling). Or if you want a combo that's covered by an exotic race that your GM isn't allowing (this would be a major thing in PFS, for instance).
The Skill Focus thing is definitely good - as you mentioned, a strict upgrade for humans who are already taking Skill Focus. I just personally get more excited about options with more applications, as it means there's a better chance of me using them. Although Dual Talent is less of a strict upgrade, it's definitely the more widely-applicable option, and therefore more exciting to me personally. :)
I have to disagree about Focused Study being so awesome unless you start at high levels. Having to play through 7 levels of being worse than a half-elf before you get a single extra advantage seems kind of lame. And even then, if you're playing a character that really does want two instances of Skill Focus, you probably wanted that second one a lot earlier. Also I don't really care about 16th level, but that's just because I play PFS.
So I guess if you're starting at high levels and need the skill boosts it's decent, but only in that very specific circumstance.
I think I like Dual Talent better overall, because it opens up things that didn't work before, instead of mildly enhancing existing possibilities.
Worse HOW exactly?
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Having to play through 7 levels of being worse than a half-elf before you get a single extra advantage seems kind of lame.Worse HOW exactly?
Human:
+2 to stat of choiceFree Skill Focus
Free skill rank/level
Half-Elf:
+2 to stat of choice
Free Skill Focus
Low-light vision
Two favored classes
Immune to sleep effects
+2 to saves versus enchantments
I'd call a skill rank per level worse than the sum total of low-light vision, two favored classes, immunity to sleep, and a save bonus. Am I wrong?
Or if you like the dwarf's +WIS/CON, but can't afford the -CHA for your cleric. Or if you like the elf's +INT/DEX, but the -CON makes you nervous. Or if you want +STR/CON for your barbarian (and again, without a minus). Or if you want +WIS/CHA for a cleric (focused on casting and channeling). Or if you want a combo that's covered by an exotic race that your GM isn't allowing (this would be a major thing in PFS, for instance).
The combos I'm usually interested in are Str/Wis (for a melee divine caster) or Str/Int or Str/Cha (for a melee arcane caster). It's possible those are all out there somewhere, but as you note, they may not be PFS legal.
Overall I'd value Focused study more on certain builds. I'm thinking ones that heavily rely on skills. Think about bards for a moment. You give up a bonus feat to give how many skills a +3-6 bonus with versatile performance? 6? So overal you gain the equivalent of 36 skill points versus the twenty at most from
Then of course we can talk about skill starved fighters, clerics, and paladins. Overall it seems pretty solid.
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Other than the barbarian (which is a good point - I thought of Str/Con but forgot there was a case where it was so especially valuable), those are all available on noncore races, so ultimately these come down to the last one - "are noncore races available". (Demodand-spawn tieflings get +Wis/+Con/-Int, ratfolk get +Dex/+Int/-Str, changelings get +Wis/+Cha/-Con and aasimar get +Wis/+Cha.)
Here I'm again thinking of "what if you can't afford the penalty?"
An elven Eldritch Knight would be great with its +DEX/INT, but a -CON when you're going to be in melee, especially when five of your levels are at d6 HD? Ouch.
A dwarven cleric is awesome, except for the part where you have to either all but give up one of your class features (channeling) or else bend over backwards to overcome that -CHA.
Dual Talent's lack of a -2 adjustment should not be underestimated, IMO.
Really, the only thing I think we're disagreeing on is "more widely applicable" - I think Dual Talent probably affects fewer builds than Focused Study, but has a greater effect on those builds. Then again, I see a lot of people taking Eldritch Heritage, so my view on the value of level 1 Skill Focus may be biased by that.
Even if you're seeing lots of that build, personally I favor "applicable in lots of builds" over "applicable to essentially one overused build". ;)
Think about bards for a moment. You give up a bonus feat to give how many skills a +3-6 bonus with versatile performance? 6?Whoa. Good point.
Yeah, the thought had crossed my mind as well.