You may not use Vital Strike with a charge.
Vital Strike requires the use of the attack action, which is a specific standard action.
A charge is a full-round action -- a different action from the attack action. Therefore, Vital Strike does not work with a charge.
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I took a closer look, and now I disagree with my earlier post. From the mounted combat rules:
When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground. If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack. Even at your mount's full speed, you don't take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.
If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge).
So, technically the rider isn't taking a charge action -- he's taking an attack action at the end of the mount's charge. Which means Vital Strike applies.
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I took a closer look, and now I disagree with my earlier post. From the mounted combat rules:
So, technically the rider isn't taking a charge action -- he's taking an attack action at the end of the mount's charge. Which means Vital Strike applies.When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground. If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack. Even at your mount's full speed, you don't take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.
If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge).
So the lance, would double the damage after the vital strike? Or would the extra d8 (from vital strike) be applied after the doubled (from lance w/ mounted charge) regular d8+STR?
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If you are mounted it appears your mount is doing the charge (full-round action) which lets you do an attack as a standard action. Which would mean only your mount would get the +1 to hit, and only your mount would have the -2 AC penalty.
Somehow this seems wrong - I visualize the rider and mount as a single unit.
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If you are mounted it appears your mount is doing the charge (full-round action) which lets you do an attack as a standard action. Which would mean only your mount would get the +1 to hit, and only your mount would have the -2 AC penalty.
Somehow this seems wrong - I visualize the rider and mount as a single unit.
If this is the case then the lance doesn't do extra damage, because you're not charging
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To answer the second part you would add the lance's base damage die to the double damage. So if it is 1d8+4 normally, on a mounted charging vital strike it would be 3d8+8
However, the lance doubles damage not dice (unlike vital strike.) Assuming I do 1+4, with the lance only (no vital strike), I do 2 x (1d8+4). With vital strike would it be, 2 x (2d8+4) OR 2 x (1d8+4) + 1d8
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If this is the case then the lance doesn't do extra damage, because you're not chargingIf you are mounted it appears your mount is doing the charge (full-round action) which lets you do an attack as a standard action. Which would mean only your mount would get the +1 to hit, and only your mount would have the -2 AC penalty.
Somehow this seems wrong - I visualize the rider and mount as a single unit.
To contradict,
"A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount."
The lance deals double damage while on a charging horse.
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You never double a double. It would be: 2x (1d8+4) + 1d8.To answer the second part you would add the lance's base damage die to the double damage. So if it is 1d8+4 normally, on a mounted charging vital strike it would be 3d8+8However, the lance doubles damage not dice (unlike vital strike.) Assuming I do 1+4, with the lance only (no vital strike), I do 2 x (1d8+4). With vital strike would it be, 2 x (2d8+4) OR 2 x (1d8+4) + 1d8
Thanks
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You never double a double. It would be: 2x (1d8+4) + 1d8.To answer the second part you would add the lance's base damage die to the double damage. So if it is 1d8+4 normally, on a mounted charging vital strike it would be 3d8+8However, the lance doubles damage not dice (unlike vital strike.) Assuming I do 1+4, with the lance only (no vital strike), I do 2 x (1d8+4). With vital strike would it be, 2 x (2d8+4) OR 2 x (1d8+4) + 1d8
And a crit charging vital strike (iirc it is a x3 weapon) would be 5d8+16 or 4(1d8+4) + 1d8
If you are mounted it appears your mount is doing the charge (full-round action) which lets you do an attack as a standard action. Which would mean only your mount would get the +1 to hit, and only your mount would have the -2 AC penalty.
Check the text I bolded in the rules above -- even though you're not charging, you still get both the bonus and penalty from a charge if you take an attack at the end of the mount's charge.
Also, the attack bonus from charging is +2.
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If you recived all bonus and penalty when make a charge with your mount you are make a charge so no vital strike.
Not so. It's already been established that you can use vital strike as part of your MOUNT'S charge. See above for clarification.
Both you and your mount get to take the regular number of actions per round. In the case of a charge, your mount is taking a full-round action to perform the charge. You (the character) haven't taken any actions at all yet. If, for example, you draw your weapon while your mount is charging, then you have taken your move action during your mount's full-round action. At the end of the charge, your mount can make an attack (per the charge rules) and you can still take your standard (attack) action. This standard attack action allows you to add Vital Strike. Alternately, let's say you already have your weapon drawn and your mount takes a full-round action to charge. At the end of the charge, you can take your standard (attack) action and make your attack, and then dismount (move action).
The point is, your mount's full-round charge action is not your character's full-round action too. The rules specify, however, that your character still gains the benefits and drawbacks from your mount's charge. This does NOT mean that you are the one taking the full-round action to charge, however.
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You have to charge as well as a mount
I think it is stupid tho, so i rule that rider just count as charging (but would probably not allow vital stike)
Well with that new ruling, it pretty much changes everything that has been said.
No more vital strike on a charging mount, considering their words are that when your mount charges you are considered to be charging as well (both charging in unison), thus, the full round action, thus no attack action at the end. :(That's a bummer.
The mount can still charge without the rider also charging, but if it does then the rider does not gain any of the benefits or drawbacks of the charge. In this case, the rider retains its action economy, so Vital Strike would be back on the table, but there's no +2 to hit, -2 to AC, nor extra lance damage or charge-specific feats going off.
The mount can still charge without the rider also charging, but if it does then the rider does not gain any of the benefits or drawbacks of the charge. In this case, the rider retains its action economy, so Vital Strike would be back on the table, but there's no +2 to hit, -2 to AC, nor extra lance damage or charge-specific feats going off.
That does not seem to be correct according to the FAQ. That FAQ is basically saying that the terms "mounted charge", "charging while mounted", and "from the back of a charging mount" are all synonymous and equate to both the mount and the rider charging.
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The mount can still charge without the rider also charging, but if it does then the rider does not gain any of the benefits or drawbacks of the charge. In this case, the rider retains its action economy, so Vital Strike would be back on the table, but there's no +2 to hit, -2 to AC, nor extra lance damage or charge-specific feats going off.That does not seem to be correct according to the FAQ. That FAQ is basically saying that the terms "mounted charge", "charging while mounted", and "from the back of a charging mount" are all synonymous and equate to both the mount and the rider charging.
No, but the mount could simply take a double move, and the rider can then full attack or vital strike. You don't get the +2 to hit or double lance damage, but you don't get -2 to AC either.
No, but the mount could simply take a double move, and the rider can then full attack or vital strike. You don't get the +2 to hit or double lance damage, but you don't get -2 to AC either.The mount can still charge without the rider also charging, but if it does then the rider does not gain any of the benefits or drawbacks of the charge. In this case, the rider retains its action economy, so Vital Strike would be back on the table, but there's no +2 to hit, -2 to AC, nor extra lance damage or charge-specific feats going off.That does not seem to be correct according to the FAQ. That FAQ is basically saying that the terms "mounted charge", "charging while mounted", and "from the back of a charging mount" are all synonymous and equate to both the mount and the rider charging.
Ah ok, yeah it would work just fine that way.
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You can't full attack if the mount moves more than 5 feet.
You're right, I was thinking of mounted archery. You can still Vital Strike if your mount double moves.
Also, as pointed out before, the faq ruling means that charging is impossible for mounted combat characters with no animal companion
Debatable. It's only true if Charging without making an attack is an attack. It's not, even though the charge action is listed under special attacks.
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move.
After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.
Attacking is not required by the charge action, and if you aren't ordering your mount to attack, then it is just a special type of movement, allowing the Ride skill to cover directing the mount instead of handle animal.
So if your mount has pounce, and you have pounce? Do you both get full round attacks when you charge in unison?
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So if your mount has pounce, and you have pounce? Do you both get full round attacks when you charge in unison?No, just the mount. You get the standard Charge.
If you have the Mounted Skirmisher feat and the Pounce ability, you can utilize your Pounce ability because you, the rider, are taking the charge action. Otherwise you'd be limited by the mounted combat rules that prevent you from taking more than one attack if your mount moves more than 5 feet.
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No, but the mount could simply take a double move, and the rider can then full attack or vital strike. You don't get the +2 to hit or double lance damage, but you don't get -2 to AC either.The mount can still charge without the rider also charging, but if it does then the rider does not gain any of the benefits or drawbacks of the charge. In this case, the rider retains its action economy, so Vital Strike would be back on the table, but there's no +2 to hit, -2 to AC, nor extra lance damage or charge-specific feats going off.That does not seem to be correct according to the FAQ. That FAQ is basically saying that the terms "mounted charge", "charging while mounted", and "from the back of a charging mount" are all synonymous and equate to both the mount and the rider charging.
AS I far as I read, you and mount act as one if you consider melee weapons. But I didn't find where states the mount can double move and rider still have his single attack action. The Mounted Combat section said this about ranged and spellcasting, not melee attacking.
Mount share you move action for melee actions, and do not for ranged/spellcasting actions (with penalities).
Charging with a mount is stated as same as mounted charging, so it's a combined full round action with a normal attack at the end, so no vital strike option, in my interpretation.
Charge is full-round action, like Spring Attack, and cannot use vital Strike.
And after a bit of research found an official answer:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2jzty?Mounted-combat-Spirited-Charge-Vital-Stri ke#7
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You and your mount have your own separate pools of actions. The new FAQ just means that the newly defined "mounted charge" action requires both the rider and the mount to expend a charge action to gain the benefits. There is no reason the mount can't take a double move and then the rider execute a Vital Strike at the end. This won't be a mounted charge, and so won't benefit from anything that requires a mounted charge, but there may be a reason that someone would want to do this.
As to combining a mounted charge and with Vital Strike, the relevant, recent, and official FAQ was actually quoted by Darkphoenixx several posts ago.
So if your mount has pounce, and you have pounce? Do you both get full round attacks when you charge in unison?No, just the mount. You get the standard Charge.
Yes, but pounce allows you to take your full attack on a standard charge.
The FAQ says that you are both charging...so by that wouldn't you both get the pounce?I have a PC in my game who is trying to do this, and I honestly am going to probably just tell him no whether the rules support it or not, because it demolishes the action economy of the game...but I would like to nail down the rules of it as well.
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So if your mount has pounce, and you have pounce? Do you both get full round attacks when you charge in unison?No, just the mount. You get the standard Charge.Yes, but pounce allows you to take your full attack on a standard charge.
The FAQ says that you are both charging...so by that wouldn't you both get the pounce?
I have a PC in my game who is trying to do this, and I honestly am going to probably just tell him no whether the rules support it or not, because it demolishes the action economy of the game...but I would like to nail down the rules of it as well.
He's still limited by the normal mounted combat rules, which state "If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack."
Now, if he takes the Mounted Skirmisher feat, then he would be able to combine Pounce with a mounted charge action, but that has 14 skill ranks and two feats as a prerequisite.
So, you've got the following possibilities:
Joe without both Pounce and Mounted Skirmisher can (potentially) make a mounted charge, but both he and his mount have to use a full round charge action. Joe can only make one attack as normal for a charge.
Joe with Pounce but no Mounted Skirmisher can make a full attack at the end of his charge, but is still limited by the specific rules of mounted combat, which state unequivocally that you only get to make one attack if your mount moves more than 5 feat. So Joe on his feat can Pounce, Joe on his horse can still only make one attack.
Joe gets Mounted Skirmisher, which allows him to take a full attack action at the end of a charge. Now, he performs the Mounted Charge action and can Pounce while mounted because Mounted Skirmisher has removed the single attack limitation. Joe gets double (or triple if using Spirited Charge) damage with his first lance attack and then may resolve any iteratives he has as normal. The iteratives do not gain bonus damage from the charge.
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So if your mount has pounce, and you have pounce? Do you both get full round attacks when you charge in unison?No, just the mount. You get the standard Charge.Yes, but pounce allows you to take your full attack on a standard charge.
The FAQ says that you are both charging...so by that wouldn't you both get the pounce?
I have a PC in my game who is trying to do this, and I honestly am going to probably just tell him no whether the rules support it or not, because it demolishes the action economy of the game...but I would like to nail down the rules of it as well.
You would need Mounted Skirmisher and pounce, so it's only going to happen at 15th level or higher.
He's still limited by the normal mounted combat rules
As far as the rules are concerned specific > general
I would say pounce (which is a specific ability within the umbrella of charge) is more specific than mounted combat rules(which covers all aspects of mounted combat).Thus if you and your mount have pounce and charge then you both get the benefits/penalties of charge/pounce (since you are both using the charge action as per the faq).
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He's still limited by the normal mounted combat rulesAs far as the rules are concerned specific > general
I would say pounce (which is a specific ability within the umbrella of charge) is more specific than mounted combat rules(which covers all aspects of mounted combat).
Thus if you and your mount have pounce and charge then you both get the benefits/penalties of charge/pounce (since you are both using the charge action as per the faq).
I would disagree. Attacking while mounted is the more specific circumstance.
Generally, a character with Pounce can make a full attack at the end of the charge, but you specifically can't make more than one attack if your mount moves more than 5 feet without Mounted Skirmisher.Since nothing in Pounce overrides the Mounted Combat rules, those are the more specific rules covering these circumstances.
And I disagree with Ssalarn.
Your mount and rider have their own pools of actions.
So, without the line "If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack" then a mount could double move (using its whole round of actions) then the rider could full attack (since he hasn't used any actions).
The restriction only serves to indicate that you and your mount are acting at the same time, so your full attack can't come after the movement is completed. This is supported by the next line "Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack."
But Pounce allows a full attack after a charge. So the ability lets you squeeze a normal full round action in after movement (as part of a charge).
So if you can squeeze in the full attack after having to wait until you run 60', I don't see how the same ability wouldn't let you do the same after waiting for the horse to move.
So, since the mounted rule is explicitly an issue of timing, and Pounce clearly gets around the timing issue normally, I think Pounce would be the controlling rule.
Hmmm. And I see it as;
Generally, a character who is mounted can not make more than one attack if your mount moves more than 5 feet or if making a charge, but you specifically can make a full attack at the end of a charge if you have the pounce feat...
I didn't see you point of view at first but now... agree to disagree?
To break my point of view down further;
Generally if you charge you can make a single attack at the end of a charge.
Generally if you are mounted and your mount moves more than 5 feet you can only make one attack.
I consider these notions general because they are guideline/baseline rules with nothing attached.
Pounce is a feat/ability which circumvents/trumps these rules and creates allowances.
I consider pounce specific because it requires a feat/special ability to acquire and is not part of the general rules.
Therefore, if pounce is specific then it trumps the general rules and therefore, pounce on mounted charge is valid.
I think we need a blog on Mounted Combat, just like they did for poison and the stealth rules.
No, they've given more clarification in the 3 years since this thread and you cannot vital strike on a charge.
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So I think you can still do vital strike because charge is a "special" full round action and even if you used your move action you can still charge as a standard action.
Incorrect. In order to take the charge action as a standard action you need to be FORCED into only taking a standard action. like when your staggered.