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Hi all! I had a Ninja ask me if he could take Monk Vows. His argument is this quote:
"This section introduces monk vows, which any user of ki can take to increase his ki pool."
He said, "I have a Ki pool, so I can take vows."
However, a little further along I see this bit:
"The ability to take these vows replaces the still mind class feature, even if the monk abandons all his vows."
That seems to suggest that you have to have the still mind class feature - ie you need to be a Monk. At least that's how I'd rule it if I were a GM as opposed to a Judge.
So I bring the question to you - the wise yet faceless masses of the boards. What is RAW here?
Oh, and I apologize if this has been answered elsewhere, but I couldn't find it. :)
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Your player's quoted line isn't even under the "Monk Vows" heading. It's just an introduction to that section of the chapter.
Additionally, it is in the section on Monks, and therefore all text therein is assumed to be in the context of monks.
Plus there's the more specific line you found.
Your player is incorrect.
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Honestly, the vows usually impose a big enough penalty (at least for a roleplaying sense) compared to the bonus they give that I've dealt away with the "replacing still mind" crap. I see no reason why a ninja couldn't take advantage of the vows. (However, I would argue that in order to have the required discipline for the vows, the character in question should probably have to be Lawful.)
I play a little loose with the rules sometimes though, in an effort to accommodate interesting character concepts.
Also, despite it being an introduction, the section quoted does say: "any user of ki". Admittedly, the book in question was written before the introduction of the ninja, but still.
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Honestly, the vows usually impose a big enough penalty (at least for a roleplaying sense) compared to the bonus they give that I've dealt away with the "replacing still mind" crap. I see no reason why a ninja couldn't take advantage of the vows. (However, I would argue that in order to have the required discipline for the vows, the character in question should probably have to be Lawful.)
I play a little loose with the rules sometimes though, in an effort to accommodate interesting character concepts.
Also, despite it being an introduction, the section quoted does say: "any user of ki". Admittedly, the book in question was written before the introduction of the ninja, but still.
This is certainly a valid opinion in a home game.
But in PFS, we have to run things RAW.
Can't go changing things to suit our whims in PFS.
Hmmm, I have a vow of cleanliness on my Ninja.
I read
"This section introduces monk vows, which any user of ki can take to increase his ki pool."
but never noticed:
"The ability to take these vows replaces the still mind class feature, even if the monk abandons all his vows."
I don't think I've ever actually run out of Ki, but I've been down to my last point a couple times. Guess I'll go fix it.
Okay, my two cents: yes, the "Monk Vows" section of Ultimate Magic states that "Any user of ki" can take these vows. Yes, rogues (ninjas) can get a ki pool (at a lower level than monks can) by getting the ki pool talent, and therefore can take these vows (once again, at a lower level than a monk can) though I'm still having difficulty imagining a rogue taking a vow of anything, let alone poverty! So, by the rules, it seems legal for a ninja to use the vows.
However, having trouble with the already powerful rogue class having access to ki powers that (imho) were designed to give some edge to the monk class that no other could get. Looking up "rogue talents" in OGC, it seems like any rogue can take this talent. I have less problems with Ninja having monk powers, but a plain old rogue? The class already gets more skill points than any other, devastating surprise attacks, magic item use, the "Stand Up" talent as a free action. Not only that, but the monk has the additional penalty of losing his/her Still Mind feature when he/she takes vows, and rogues do not?
This is a problem.
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I would argue in the alternative.
While thematically it would make sense for a ninja to have it more than a monk, the ninja loses absolutely nothing from this exchange. The monk loses Still Mind and the rogue has to "give up" a rogue talent (since they have no choice but to take the Ki Pool rogue talent if they want to use these).
Anyways, while I'd allow this in a home game, the ruling is that only Monks are able to take these vows since one direct rule overrides a general one.
[sarcasm]...because monks just have SO MANY unique monk-only abilities that losing one to another class doing it better wouldn't hurt...[/sarcasm]
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According to the rules, you lose the Still Mind class feature. It seems pretty clear to me that you need the Still Mind class feature to take the Monk Vows--you can't give up a class feature you don't have.
Ah, but what if you were a monk/ninja?
Then you have the class feature at monk 3 and can substitute it.
[sarcasm]...because monks just have SO MANY unique monk-only abilities that losing one to another class doing it better wouldn't hurt...[/sarcasm]
Well the monk vows are an archetype and really the vows aren't that amazing. Losing still mind for a minor boost in ki, at the cost of having to do ridiculous things that almost always cost more than they are worth. Wouldn't be that bad for a ninja/rogue to take the vows I don't think, they'd be taking a penalty.
RAW they can't though I guess. Can't argue that, I would say it probably wouldn't hurt the monk that much. Would hurt the ninja to lose more bab to vow of chains.
Oh I know they suck...it's just that it's ONE thing only the monk has, and about the only one at that.
Oh I know they suck...it's just that it's ONE thing only the monk has, and about the only one at that.
I wouldn't say its the only thing they have, they also have, Flurry of blows, free SR, slowfall, super fast movement, and a scaling forcefield AC/Unarmed strike. They have plenty of class features. One of their problems is that not all of those features are really that useful.
I see it more as a thing that related to ki pool. Thats sort of how they introduce it, but then they put in the still mind requirement on the actual monk. I don't feel that requirement was needed to have the option to possibly suck more. If it sucks then why care if ninjas might want it?
They have plenty of class features, but none that another class doesn't do better. Ki used to be the monk's thing, then the ninja came along and not only could use ki, but could use it better than the core monk could. But they could still boost it with vows...
already powerful rogue class
Wut
Wut
already powerful rogue class
LOL
Okay, really? You think the rogue class is less powerful than the monk? Really?
Okay, really? You think the rogue class is less powerful than the monk? Really?
Yes.
And even if it weren't, it's far from powerful.
That's like saying kittens are powerful because they're stronger than baby birds.
Let me see if I have this straight...
Vow of ... : Monk ONLY according to RAW and PFS
Vow of ... : Any ki user as a house rule under GM approval
Does that about sum it up?
RAW would say
1. Any user of ki.
2. If the monk has the still mind class feature, this gets replaced.Otherwise, the "Any user of Ki" does not actually do anything.
No, by RAW:
1. Any user of ki, WITH the Still Mind class feature which tey lose to gain the Vow.
2. There is no 2. No Still Mind to lose, no Vow.
Otherwise, can someone explain to me why monks must lose a feature and other ki users don't?
No, by RAW:1. Any user of ki, WITH the Still Mind class feature which tey lose to gain the Vow.
2. There is no 2. No Still Mind to lose, no Vow.Otherwise, can someone explain to me why monks must lose a feature and other ki users don't?
RAW states "monk vows, which ANY user of ki can take to increase his ki pool."
This statement followed, by several more confused and counter wording statements in the section talk over each other. (i.e. following vows is a new archetype) It also states that a monk can take vows without (i.e. BEFORE) gaining the still mind ability, but when you would normally gain this ability, you lose it instead. Also, rogues give up a rogue talent (there are far more useful rogue talents than ki pool). As this book was written before Ultimate Combat, the ninja apparently takes no penalty other than that of the vow.
I would say it's up to each GM to decide for themselves.
EDIT: Until an official ruling is made on the subject.
Wut
already powerful rogue class
Yeah I had to ask my wife to pinch me and see if I was dreaming.
Two things
1. When this book came out, monks were the ONLY ki users around.
2. The vows are under the monk section of the book.
In effect taking vows makes you an archtype of monk at the cost of still mind. If you are another archtype that gives up still mind, you cannot take vows. I dont see how anybody can think that if they dont have still mind to give up, they can start taking vows.
The workaround is to dip 1 level in monk. It is stated you can take the vows before you give up still mind. :P