Unfortunately a paladins power comes from some very narrow guidelines which can create a lot of potential "lawful stupid" hurdles.
I think the very narrow guidelines allow snarky GM's the latitude to create the "lawful stupid" hurldles personally :p
We need the Pallys Handbook PF Edition... just rebadge the 2nd ed one and we are good to go!
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I always viewed Chaotics as using intuition rather than logic.Rather a different criteria, same logic, I suppose.Chaos just uses a different logic, Dabbler.Illogical logic?
I think either one can use intuition. A paladin with no schooling doesn't do what he does because it's logical, it's because he knows in his heart what is good and what is evil.
Unfortunately a paladins power comes from some very narrow guidelines which can create a lot of potential "lawful stupid" hurdles.I think the very narrow guidelines allow snarky GM's the latitude to create the "lawful stupid" hurldles personally :p
We need the Pallys Handbook PF Edition... just rebadge the 2nd ed one and we are good to go!
It can be an excuse for GM's to be jerks and it can also create a situation where a GM feels that he needs to over-examine every action that the player does (which I have done before).
The paladin code and lawful good restriction brings with it a more role-playing conscious play style. If you step on a crack you break your back and the debate lies in, what exactly is a crack to the player and GM? The GM needs to collaborate with the player, once that's done the expectations have been created and the player needs to respect them (as well as the GM).
Creating every second encounter as a no win situation for the paladin is being a jerk. Though if every couple of months the GM presents a moral dilemma that the paladin player needs to really think through, that's not going to be a bad thing. Heck, I think it's an opportunity for the paladin player to shine and give a twist for the whole party to deal with.
The same philosophy should be applied to all players in the party despite their classes not having alignment restrictions. Rogues should have to deal with maintaining their reputations if they plan to have a network of contacts, etc.
Though all of this is futile if you don't want to play a role playing intensive campaign. If you're content with lawful good being "generally good", then that's your choice and everyone involved needs to establish that tone from the get go.
Rewritten?
I think it actually needs to be written first :)
I'd also like to take the time to point out that when the paladin's code says not lie, it means to those one the street, in town, travelling with etc and does NOT likely mean tell the truth to the bbeg or answer evil chick's questions when she interagates him.
it does mean that when and if said evil guy surrenders that said paladin will take him prisoner and not kill him while he's in his custody.
Unless he is a paladin of justice in which case he will render a fair and impartial judgment and then execute the sentence with a calm and level head, knowing that justice has been served.
Unless he is a paladin of justice in which case he will render a fair and impartial judgment and then execute the sentence with a calm and level head, knowing that justice has been served.I'd also like to take the time to point out that when the paladin's code says not lie, it means to those one the street, in town, travelling with etc and does NOT likely mean tell the truth to the bbeg or answer evil chick's questions when she interagates him.
it does mean that when and if said evil guy surrenders that said paladin will take him prisoner and not kill him while he's in his custody.
No, a paladin of Justice would not stoop to being the judge jury and executioner as he's know that is not justice but revenge.
Iomedae is justice and what you state is not justice but revenge
Its justice if its fair.
And I was joking, dry wit is wasted on the internet, especially when its not that witty.
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after 10 years of searching, you find the murderer of your best friend and find that he is the sole supporter of a orphan girl, dost thou:
a: SLay him in the name justice
b:show compassion for the sake of the girldry wit is a waste anywhere if the intent is not understood...
hmmm.... well I think compassion gave a bonus to dex and int...
whew, thats rough.... what is an avatar to do?
I'm pretty sure that a paladin would arrest the murderer and send him on to the consequences of his actions. They would then take the orphan and give her into the care of the church.
There is no way that a paladin would let a young child stay in the care of a murderer.
Paladins can tell white lies for the greater good if it helps the bystander in question feels better about it.
and smart tactics are not dishonorable.
Rewritten?
I think it actually needs to be written first :)
As in written more clearly? I would definitely agree with that - in a way, we already have it, though, in the various paladin codes for various deities in Faiths of Purity.
The paladin code and lawful good restriction brings with it a more role-playing conscious play style. If you step on a crack you break your back and the debate lies in, what exactly is a crack to the player and GM?
If the player is making an effort not to step on the crack, and isn't trying to lawyer their way out of the paladin's code, I'd say they are doing things right.
No Irontruth, I was not grammar nazi'ing your post. I was pointing out the fundamental misunderstanding you have of what a lie by omission is. There is no fundamental requirement to answer every question posed to a paladin by whomever asks. If a paladin chooses to simply not answer a question put to him, it is not a lie by omission, it is not dishonest, it is merely choosing not to answer. You used the phrase "lie of omission" which I pointed out was a non-existent thing because it was said in support of your supposition. You do not lie by not saying anything and thus abstaining from providing any information whatsoever, you lie by providing FALSE information. A paladin choosing not to answer a demon, devil, or other person with evil intentions when questioned about the whereabouts of a given person/place/thing, is not lying, and is in fact taking the best route available to uphold his honor if he is unable to smite said thing.
No, you are grammar nazi'ing my post, by choosing to make the distinction between of and by. If you can't get over an extremely insignificant difference like that, there is nothing for us to discuss. If you want to talk about this with me, get over it, if you don't want to talk to me about it, feel free to continue making a huge difference between of and by.
I can find references around the web that use both terms, so making the distinction is pretty worthless and petty.
Somewhere an English teacher is weeping.
Given the amount of bad English on this board alone, one more weeping teacher should be utterly insignificant.
English is an ever-evolving language. Many grammatical rules have changed over time.
Somewhere, an English Professor is chuckling.
ur rite. my rouge eidilon theif weilds it's diety blessd sheild and its only cuz of teh evolving langauge.
And now, back to our regularly scheduled discussion...
@Irontruth: Have you ever played a Paladin?
Yes, it's one of my favorite classes.
I think intent is huge in determining the right/wrong of paladin actions. Means are just as important as the ends though. Paladins can and should have a fairly narrow ledge to walk, not because of the cool class abilities, but because you play one to try and exemplify an ideal. They are still mortal though and shouldn't be trapped just because of that.
A falsehood told in jest isn't a lie, the intent isn't to deceive, it's to laugh.
My earlier question still stands:Can a Paladin use sarcasm?
Given the fact that sarcasm tends to use irony as a vehicle, and irony tends to work by saying something and meaning the opposite - which is, technically, not telling the truth, and as such, a lie -, I'd say that there are people out there who would claim the Paladin has violated the truthfulness part of his code, and thus, is to be stripped of his powers; hurr, hurr.
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My earlier question still stands:Can a Paladin use sarcasm?Given the fact that sarcasm tends to use irony as a vehicle, and irony tends to work by saying something and meaning the opposite - which is, technically, not telling the truth, and as such, a lie -, I'd say that there are people out there who would claim a Paladin has violated the truthfulness part of his code, and thus, is to be stripped of his powers; hurr, hurr.
Unfortunately, a number of posters would agree with this.
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I think paladins should start the game with their powers already lost, it would save time.
