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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
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Double guns doubles damage output (at -4 but touch attacks so irrelevant). It seems you can load one as a free action but what of both?
If we look at the Double Crossbow (advanced players gear) shouldn't it follow on those rules. "needs a move action per bolt" and that assumes you have rapid reload AND Crossbow Mastery (which has 2 pre-reqs). It makes no sense you can load a gun quicker when you can have less then half the ammount of feats, no mastery and its slower.
Further if you work backwards logically why would you ever bother 'advancing to revolvers' or using revolvers if/when their available when it halves your base damage output for no gain?
I suppose its cinematic (desperado/book of eli)to pull a double barrel weapon for one voley and then drop it, and have noissue using them this way but wonder if this was the intent?
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote: Wow. Not even half a week has gone by and already there's been three threads. By all means educate instead of comment. Smacks of protecting ones cheap rorts otherwise : )
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rorts?
dictionary wrote: rort
[rawrt]
noun Australian.
- a rowdy, usually drunken party.
I didn't just comment, I also linked to a very informative thread.
Cheers for the link (i hadn't noticed it was a link) but it doesn't help. I know how to rort it once some dubious assumptions have been made I am wanting to get others opinions on those initial assumptions.
Do they follow from the logic already in place for such things or the very concept of gun developement = gets better.
Rorts... a term we use. Defines the grey area between optimisation and cheating thats rationalised by self-interested hopeful assumption. Easiest seen when players argue for things they would never allow themselves/never argue if it weren't for their current build or planned build.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Actually, RD, his question is different. The threads from last time were about dual-wielding pistols. This seems to be about guns that have multiple barrels. For instance, the double-barreled pistol. It's one weapon, but you fire both shots at the same time, basically doubling your damage.
So the question is if you can reload both barrels of a double-barreled pistol easily. The answer seems to be yes. If you have Rapid-Reload AND are using alchemical cartridges, then you should be able to reload both barrels, each with a free action. This is assuming your other hand is free, of course. (and I think there's other ways to speed it up that don't require having both of those, like gunslinger grit things... and that would let this apply to double-barreled muskets as well)
The benefit of a double pistol when compared to a double crossbow is that on a crossbow, you have to insert the bolt AND draw back the string. On a firearm, you simply have to insert the cartridge. No string = easier.
Edit: That last paragraph there is my view on justification for the WHY, as pertaining to the OP's question.
For early firearms if reloading is a free action (rapid reload & alchemical cartridge & either double pistols OR musket master archetype level 3+) AND your GM does not put a limit on free actions, then it is a viable option. I've always house ruled that something has to happen between free actions, but there is no written rule that prohibits it per se, just the rule that GMs decide the reasonable limit to free actions.
For advanced firearms there is no question that it is viable for the double shotgun.
As for why use a revolver instead of a double pistol absent a limit on free actions, the misfire rate for non-level 13+-pistoleros is much lower for revolvers using metal cartridges.
The thing is when it comes to crossbows the rules assume their easier to load.
I don't need special alchemical (greased or something) bolts to load a light crossbow with rapid reload as a free action. Further Crossbow Mastery makes me even better still. Yet with BOTH of these I still cannot load a double light crossbow as a free action so why a gun? With just one feat, when guns are inately slower.
Also why 'advance' to revolvers when double guns are just superior??
Further as a gunsmith with access to adamantine, high strength, insane skill ranks and magic if there is indeed no barrel limit to 'free reloads' whats the logic difference between loading two for free or 8 and so 'advancing guns' and making 8 barreled pistols???
I have no problem with house ruling that that reloading a double pistol or musket is similar to reloading a double crossbow, but the RAW don't say that.
Core Rulebook wrote: Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM. Is there a limit on 'free reloads'? Yes, by RAW.
What is that limit? It is decided by the GM, by RAW.
You make a good argument for there being a limit placed on free reloads for double pistols with the comparison to double crossbows. You make another good argument by pointing out the inferior damage potential of advanced revolvers to early double pistols. These arguments, if convincing to GMs, mean that GMs should limit free action reloading to a reasonable amount, a reasonable amount being a point which prevents double firearms from being (ab)used to double fire all the time.
I like the house rule I play with (free actions must be separated by something), I'm sure other people dislike it. Some GMs limit players to one free action per round, and if it works for them fine, and it certainly prevents abuse of double firearm free reloading. Free reloading is an area of the rules specifically left to GMs' discretion, and itis up to each GM to decide how it works with their game and their players.
In Pathfinder, things are a bit reversed: The Crossbow requires more training, more time and more special non-commoner potential to be any good than any little bow. While its technically easier to learn how to hold the thing, any proper use of it requires far more expertise than you'd need from an archer.
If you're paying two feats just to be allowed four attacks per round, and the GM takes issue with how many 'free actions' you're using on the reload, which is rather reasonable given a crossbow's base loading time, you should see to it that the guy nocking, drawing, aiming, loosing and following-through on 1.16 arrows every second starts seeing some limits too.
For double pistols, my table makes it similar to Manyshot: You get ONE double-shot per pistol every round; your remaining iteratives are normal attacks. However, the extra shot gets its full bonus dice and damage, can crit on its own [its its own attack roll], and is thus the method by which Vital Strike is actually made viable [in my character's case, double-pistol vital strike with marksman's augmented shot has allowed me to nearly equal a normal archer's DPR, though its a bit more optimized and ability/feat intensive than the archer needs to be].
Of course, since they're two shots, you may not get the chance to clear it. Do *not* roll a double-misfire if you want to keep your hand.
To answer the real question at hand.
By RAW there is no limit on Free Actions therefor reload to your heart's content.
But be prepared to have your GM houserule whatever.
With adding all the feats and abilities out there taking that -4 to hit though makes it harder to hit even with touch attacks.
It really seems doubleguns leave alot of unanswered questions that if unanswered DOUBLE the power of certain weapons.
Well, if you just think about the image of reloading both at once, it does not actually seem too strange. Just line up two cartridges and shove them down. I would think that the ram rod the presumably comes with it might simply be two ram rods bolted together. Just use some of the teamwork tactics of a rogue to get rid of DEX since that -4 is a pain. But hey, you still have the option to only shoot one bullet at a time without much trouble. Overall though, part of me would want to home rule them as double weapons and just let TWF handle it.
While they are called alchemical cartridges, for the simple paper ones at least, it is just basically the standard blackpowder and bullet wrapped in paper. It saves time since it packages them together instead of you having to grab a powder horn and an individual bullet from your pocket before ramming them down the barrel. The alchemy comes in for making paper that would burn off completely and not clog up the barrel. With a crossbow, you have to pull back the string and place an arrow in every time.
Rise from the dead and breath new life into this debate!
Jamie Charlan wrote: In Pathfinder, things are a bit reversed: The Crossbow requires more training, more time and more special non-commoner potential to be any good than any little bow. While its technically easier to learn how to hold the thing, any proper use of it requires far more expertise than you'd need from an archer.
If you're paying two feats just to be allowed four attacks per round, and the GM takes issue with how many 'free actions' you're using on the reload, which is rather reasonable given a crossbow's base loading time, you should see to it that the guy nocking, drawing, aiming, loosing and following-through on 1.16 arrows every second starts seeing some limits too.
Actually Bows are martial weapons and crossbows are simple weapons so it requires more training for a bow than a crossbow. I look at it like this a bow is a weapon for a warriors, where a crossbow is a commoners weapon. What I mean by a warrior is not the NPC class, but someone trained to fight which includes any martial class.
Historically a English longbow man will outmatch almost anyone using a crossbow. Now with an incredible amount of practice and skill the crossbow can become a dangerous weapon, but put even half that amount of effort into a bow and the bowman will be better.
Crossbows had three advantages the first and most important was it took very little training to gain basic competence with them. The second is they were usually better at penetrating heavy armor. The last advantage was they were generally cheaper to make. A lord could equip quickly and cheaply raise a larger force using crossbows then bows. There is a saying to train a someone in using a crossbow takes a couple of weeks, to train an archer you star with his grandfather.
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