Goblin Squad Member
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I had read this on Goblinworks site in the FAQ:
Will PvP (player-vs.-player aggression) be allowed?
Characters will be able to attack rival characters in most parts of the game world. In many circumstances, though, unprovoked aggression may carry severe in-game penalties.
I have debated on trying out Pathfinder Online (when it is released) but this actually kind of concerns me. The impression I get from reading this is that PvP is going to be very much part of the game, whether you want it or not.
I've never been a fan of PvP, and the MMOs I've played I have always played on non-PvP servers.
I was hoping PFO would have something similar, but it doesn't seem like this will be the case. I know it's early, and I don't know how it will work yet exactly, but the last thing I want is someone being able to attack me, I would much rather only deal with PvE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've never been a fan of PvP, and the MMOs I've played I have always played on non-PvP servers.
I was hoping PFO would have something similar, but it doesn't seem like this will be the case. I know it's early, and I don't know how it will work yet exactly, but the last thing I want is someone being able to attack me, I would much rather only deal with PvE.
You need to think through what "PvP" means--unpack it. PvP in UO was very one thing, PvP variant servers in traditional theme park games something else, and so on.
But anyway, if the possibility of conflict turns you off, this is just flat out the wrong game for you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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PvP is a lot of fun if you don't mind dieing.
I enjoy being hunted!
I like the element of surprise!
I like a challenge!
I like to win!
I even like to lose!
I like the unknown!
If you have to think, your learning something!
I like losing, it makes winning even better!
I like to play with other people!
I like different personalities!
I like conflict!
I like to work things out!
I like to think!
I like to get away!
I like to get caught!
I like to just barely make it!
I like to live!
I like to die!
I would like to live and die in the River Kingdoms!
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you are utterly against PvP for whatever reasons then PFO will probably not be for you.
You can't do a game like PFO without free PvP because struggle is the very essence of player interaction and one half of the mechanics that drive the game.
The other mechanical part is economy. So if you take away or severly limit PvP, you basically build an economy simulation. There are a plethora of these already out for you to enjoy.
...
I have never really liked PvP either, though it's mainly because of griefing. I'm hoping they will try to reduce/minimize it...
They will via bounties BUT you are the one that can reduce the chance of griefing yourself by travelling in a group!
Really, this is an MMO with an emphasis on multiplayer. If you try to be the lone wolf you must endure the hardships that such a playstyle brings.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think everyone is misunderstanding me here, I am not saying I do not enjoy player interaction. The whole point of an MMO is interacting with other players. I enjoy grouping with other players, I enjoy making and selling items to other players, I just enjoy in general making new friends online.
I would much rather take the challenge of the environment than another player, and work with others to take down those challenges.
Sure, it’s fun maybe to try take another player on just to see how you measure up, but it should be when you want to do so, not just happen out of the blue.
I’m not sure why the option can’t be given to the player to be PvP or not. If it’s as much of a problem to have a mixture, then don’t see why you can’t have non-PvP servers if the game does well enough and more servers are added.
And who says I want complete safety? You can have death and be forced to think in PvE just as much. If PvP is integral to PFO, then maybe it isn't for me. I just don’t understand why PvP ‘must’ be in the game.
You can't do a game like PFO without free PvP because struggle is the very essence of player interaction and one half of the mechanics that drive the game.
Could you explain more in what you mean by this?
In my experience, in ‘all’ MMOs the essence is player interaction. In what way is PFO going to be designed that makes PvP integral to the game?
You mentioned something about bounties, that would make sense for PvP, but is that the only reason for it? I would hope there would be more to it than that, bounties could be done with NPCs.
Maybe if I understood the need for PvP in PFO more so than previous MMOs, I wouldn’t be so adverse to it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Because the players are the content. The AI controlled content is minor, while players are meant to struggle against one another to control organizations, lands, even kingdoms. You can't get that kind of experience with pure PvE. However, you can remain in safe zones like major settlements and not be subjected to PvP, and still contribute as a crafter.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oh, ok, so the focus of the game is fighting over lands and organizations, not so much going out and killing ‘monsters’. That makes sense then in the PvP.
That sounds like a novel idea, but I wonder how that works when all the lands are taken up. How do new players join the game? Do they need to take it from existing land/territory owners? What about if someone is not able to log on for a long while and their land just sits?
I like the idea of owning a home, but never been big on politics, so wouldn’t want to worry about gaining territories or kingdoms, or having to try and defend them.
To be honest, I would be content on being the crafter in the city where I don’t have to fight. I have always enjoyed the crafting aspect in games (if done well). Would be interested to see how Goblinworks handles professions/crafting in the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Even as a crafter you compete in PVP through the market system. That can be even more cutthroat than combat PVP too. As a sandbox, PFO allows you to basically do what you want. You define your own goals, your own plans, and your own execution. You aren't being guided through life by NPC quest-givers. This alone fosters PVP if there are limited resources. If two people have the same goal requiring the same resource but there's only enough resource (or room to harvest that resource) for one, there's a decision to be made. Cooperate, abandon the goal, or fight for it. The more people competing for a resource, the more likely there will be a fight.
Increasing the limit on the resource isn't really an option, especially in a player-driven economy. Changing the amount of material available in a game would be like dumping a ton of oil into the real world market.
Because everything is created by a player, and there are limited resources (natural and dungeon-looted both count here) there will be competition. The limit isn't necessarily quantity available (for higher quality raw material it may be limited quantity), it's limited by the time it takes to locate, harvest, and transport to market.
Banditry and sellswords come into play here. Sometimes the best way to improve your market position is to hamper your competitor. So you hire a third party to disrupt their supply lines, reducing their output, increasing their operating cost, and allowing you to sell more product for less cost and greater profit than they can. Especially if you divert the competition's raw materials into your own storehouse as part of the deal.
According to the blog, there's 256 hexes in the world, and each of these can support a town or keep. A single person could never lay claim to an entire hex, the resource cost alone is more than one person can handle. But once a town is established, I believe that people could construct their shops there. Depending on the agreement with the ruling body there they may not need to contribute to defense either. That's all player to player negotiation (yet another form of PVP).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes, good point. But that is competition I can deal with and have fun with. I look at it in the sense of ‘may the best crafter win’.
It could be just a matter of perspective, but never been a fan of being jumped/ambushed/killed and having my items looted.
However, I’ve been reading up on the professions/crafting and it sounds absolutely awesome. I very well may give this game a shot.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would much rather take the challenge of the environment than another player...
That's the key. The "challenge of the environment" really means the "challenge the developers created" and you're only going to get a lot of that in a Theme Park.
I think, though, that if you're willing to join up with a large Company, and willing to minimize your exposure to risk by only venturing out into the wilderness in force, and are willing to accept the risk inherent in that, then you'll still have a lot of opportunity to do dungeon crawls where you'll be safe from attack by other players except while traveling to and from the dungeons.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's the key. The "challenge of the environment" really means the "challenge the developers created" and you're only going to get a lot of that in a Theme Park.
I think, though, that if you're willing to join up with a large Company, and willing to minimize your exposure to risk by only venturing out into the wilderness in force, and are willing to accept the risk inherent in that, then you'll still have a lot of opportunity to do dungeon crawls where you'll be safe from attack by other players except while traveling to and from the dungeons.
Well yes, of course, the challenge of the environment is one in the same as the challenge the developers created. But I’m ok with that as long as it’s fun.
But if I’m going to play this game, you need to have faith in the developers to design it well. If they can’t develop a game that is fun, including PvE challenge, then it probably won’t be done well in other aspects.
From what I am reading about the crafting and professions though, I am really liking it so far. And truly intrigued exactly how it will be handled. This game is on my radar again.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My point about developer-created content was not that it wouldn't be done well, but that there won't be as much of it as there is in pure Theme Parks.
From A Journey of a Thousand Miles Begins with a Single Step:
In most MMO development plans, that theme park content is where the budget is spent...
It's very easy to get into a trap where the cost to make the content you need to pay for your design is more than you can generate in revenue from that design...
This was the first critical point where our plan diverged from the norm... we can focus primarily on the content needed for players to interact with each other and avoid having to develop a huge amount of theme park content prior to launch.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thanks Nihimon.
I’ve been reading several of the threads on the Pathfinder Online forums here at Paizo, and I am understanding a bit more how PFO is different.
To be honest, I wasn’t sure what was meant by a theme park compared to the sandbox format. I had always had the impression that all MMOs were sandbox based, as they were an ‘open world’ to explore. But as I said, I am understanding the differences now after doing some more reading.
I am actually getting a bit excited (and curious) about the game and look forward to seeing more info on it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You're very welcome, and I can totally relate.
When I first started looking into PFO, I was very concerned about the open PvP. I've had some really bad experiences in EverQuest and a few other games that made me largely avoid PvP. I gradually started dipping my toes in the water in WoW, and actually really enjoyed the PvP in Warhammer Online when I tried out the beta, but I was very interested in walling that PvP experience off from the rest of the game by limiting it to Arenas and Battlegrounds and such.
After really grasping what PFO was trying to accomplish, by allowing the players to control territory, and fight over it to achieve their own interests, rather than just to win a "match", I forced myself to really reconsider it and I've since fully embraced it.
I don't expect to be great at it, mind you. But I expect to travel in good company :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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The best way for a crafter to not need to worry about PvP as much is to join a Chartered Company. I know of two that sound like they would be a great fit for you.
The Seventh Veil is a company that seeks knowledge and understanding of the game world. They want to have players who excel at every part of the game, ranging from combat to crafting, fishing to fighting, diplomacy to destruction. Talk to Nihimon for more information about the Seventh Veil.
The Great Legionaries seeks to promote a good community and protect those who can't protect themselves. They are out to try and stop griefing, preferably before it even takes root. A strong military requires good equipment, so they too seek skilled crafters. Talk to myself or Andius if you are interested.
Both of these companies are allies, so don't worry if you can't pick. I think we can share ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Honestly, both sound enticing.
So I take it these are basically both guilds where players have gotten together to plan for the start of the game? I hope you guys get picked during the first allottment!
If I had to choose between the two of them, I am leaning a bit on The Great Legionaries. Not that I don't like the Seventh Veil, but with one of your focuses of protecting those who can't protect themselves sounds like a good thing for me as I probably won't be all that combat oriented, and well, I've also never been all that good in regards to PvP combat.
However, I would be glad to make items for the Seventh Veil as well, as you said, you are allies. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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... After really grasping what PFO was trying to accomplish, by allowing the players to control territory, and fight over it to achieve their own interests, rather than just to win a "match", I forced myself to really reconsider it and I've since fully embraced it.
He! Every time I read this I just can't help keeping wondering: Controlling Territory or Fighting Each Other Over Territory or Crafting As Your Main Occupation just *doesn't have anything to do* with the Pathfinder PnP RPG. (also see paizo.com/forums/dmtz5slz?The-AntiCase-for-PfO) (and also read paizo.com/forums/dmtz5slz?The-AntiCase-for-PfO#23 for a good rebuttal by Ryan)
The Pathfinder RPG is all about PvE, there's no PvP at all in a normal tabletop game!
I'm curious about PfO as well, and the team working on it seems to have a solid vision for a fantasy MMO - I just fail to see how it will have anything to do with the Pathfinder game. (Yes, it'll use the Pathfinder Campaing setting as a background ...)
Ah, anyway ... looking forward to this game ... really curious how it's gonna work out and whether the PvP will work :-)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I hope you guys get picked during the first allottment!So do we!
Well, yes, I hope you get picked because you are looking forward to playing the game. But what I really meant by the comment is if you are creating the guild, it would be best to get an early start in getting it established.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've been thinking about this a fair amount, and I've realized that "PvP" is just too broad of an acronym.
Competition is great. I'm all for having rival merchants, or crafting guilds, or jockeying for advantages or resources or the like, and all that good stuff.
But actual PvP combat? Bleah. The less of this there is, there happier I'll be. I really truly hope they can back up their "in game penalties for anti-social behavior thing," because it sounds to me like too many people here on the boards are going to revel in killing other PLAYERS and taking their stuff.
And in my opinion, that sucks.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The fact is open world PVP is a feature that envokes strong passions either way.
With it, many people will not play this game.
Without it, many people including me will not play this game.
I'm not a griefer. In-fact my company is dedicated to helping people. But I want to wage wars. I want to conquer and defend territory. I want to run my goods past smugglers or come the aid of random strangers.
A game that does not force PVP on people is entirely incompatible with what I, and other PVP enthusiasts want from a game.
Goblinworks has stated for a long time now that they will give us an open world PVP game. They raised $300,000+ while promising an open world PVP game.
To go back at this point and say. "Ok nevermind we won't be doing open world PVP." would be a slap in the face to those who stood behind this game during the kickstarter. Everyone who contributed it either was aware and could accept that this was an open world PVP game, or didn't bother to read the blog before they opened their wallet.
Either way, going back on a promise as large as open world PVP would be about in line with the magnitude of them announcing "Actually... this game is not going to be a sandbox." Or "We've decided not to have a crafting system."
To those suggesting they do such a thing I have two suggestions of things you could do:
1. Give open world PVP an honest try. It's like jumping into the cool water of a pool. It's shocking and uncomfortable at first but if you don't just hop right back out you may get used to it, and even have a lot of fun with it. I know I started as a carebear but once I got a good taste of open world PVP I could never go back.
2. If you are unwilling to do that, find another game promising the features you want. Because this is not the game for you, and it never could be the game for you without ruining the game for many of it's current supporters who contributed money to it such as myself.
Edit: Sorry if I seem a bit abrasive. This is like the 5th time I've seen this subject come up on these forums.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Andius,
I appreciate your post, but a lot has changed in my knowledge of PFO since I first started this thread. Several posters have actually pointed out to me why PvP will be an integral part of PFO. I have also done a lot of reading on the blogs on Goblinworks and really have a good understanding on what Ryan (and the rest of the team) is trying to do with the game, and why PvP works well with it. And I agree.
Also, originally I never understood the difference between ‘theme park’ and ‘sandbox’ MMOs. So when those words were thrown around, I was a bit confused and that is why I couldn’t comprehend at first why you couldn’t have a ‘non-PvP’ server. It’s been done before, why can’t PFO do it as well? But after some nice posters pointed it out to me, and reading up on the blogs (the first blog gives a great description) I now understand.
And honestly, it is my fault, as if I did not take the time to read the blogs before posting. I just saw the mention of PvP in the FAQ and was immediately concerned. But now that I understand why it is needed, and what other things I read on the blog (crafting sounds awesome), I am pretty excited for the game.
But thank you for your post. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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And honestly, it is my fault, as if I did not take the time to read the blogs before posting. I just saw the mention of PvP in the FAQ and was immediately concerned.
Finally! A newcomer to that understands! Let him be an example for all people fresh to these boards. 99.99% of the possible concerns have been brought up already, most of them about an hour after each respective blog post.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I am an anti-PvP'er in general. I was thrilled when I first heard about PFO, but I was initially tempted to pass on the Kickstarter Tech Demo because of the PvP element that has bothered me since I read about it. Ultimately, I wound up kicking in a significant chunk of change for the demo because of blog statements that that the system would provide means for strongly discouraging "murder" e.g. PvP when it was unwanted or unwelcome.
I remain concerned that outside of the NPC safe zones, any character will essentially be vulnerable to such unpleasantness. I imagine under the best of circumstances, from time to time I'm going to get ganked by someone with nothing better to do and I really dislike the prospect. I am hopeful that all the goodness I'm reading about will outweigh it though.
The bottom line for me is this: I want to play an interesting, challenging game with many character growth options/paths. I do not want to pay money to become some snot-nosed idiot's virtual chewtoy.
If I find that I am getting killed by other people too often (which for me means anything more than very infrequently), I'll simply walk away disappointed that PFO for me failed.
Semi-related note...Interesting thought train expressed in several posts on this thread. Simply put, in some fundamental ways, PFO will be completely different that Pathfinder table-top. This is something else that concerns me a bit. I am excited about PFO because I love Pathfinder table-top. How true PFO stays to table-top will be another major factor in whether I become a long-term devotee, or try it for 1 month and then cancel my subscription.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Semi-related note...Interesting thought train expressed in several posts on this thread. Simply put, in some fundamental ways, PFO will be completely different that Pathfinder table-top. This is something else that concerns me a bit. I am excited about PFO because I love Pathfinder table-top. How true PFO stays to table-top will be another major factor in whether I become a long-term devotee, or try it for 1 month and then cancel my subscription.
Well, it's been pretty firmly established that for legal reasons, PFO can't use the OGL ruleset. The big question, then, will be how well it manages to feel like PFRPG.
As an aside, I feel almost exactly like you do about PvP. Note that I mean PvP combat, not competition or anything else where I'm playing against another player. That's fine. It's the "kill me and take my stuff" part that disturbs me, especially when people here seem to be so adamant that it's an integral and important part of the game. I feel like I just walked into a room of sociopaths sometimes :)
Competition? Great! Challenges? Awesome. Risk! Cool. Working hard to carve out your place in the world and succeed? Yeah, that's the ticket. Integral part of the game is for other players to kill me and take my stuff? Uh ....
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Goblin Squad Member
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Semi-related note...Interesting thought train expressed in several posts on this thread. Simply put, in some fundamental ways, PFO will be completely different that Pathfinder table-top. This is something else that concerns me a bit. I am excited about PFO because I love Pathfinder table-top. How true PFO stays to table-top will be another major factor in whether I become a long-term devotee, or try it for 1 month and then cancel my subscription.Well, it's been pretty firmly established that for legal reasons, PFO can't use the OGL ruleset. The big question, then, will be how well it manages to feel like PFRPG.
As an aside, I feel almost exactly like you do about PvP. Note that I mean PvP combat, not competition or anything else where I'm playing against another player. That's fine. It's the "kill me and take my stuff" part that disturbs me, especially when people here seem to be so adamant that it's an integral and important part of the game. I feel like I just walked into a room of sociopaths sometimes :)
Competition? Great! Challenges? Awesome. Risk! Cool. Working hard to carve out your place in the world and succeed? Yeah, that's the ticket. Integral part of the game is for other players to kill me and take my stuff? Uh ....
A different medium might turn out badly or it might allow new directions. We'll have to see.
I think a lot of mmorpgs at least last 5yrs or so, have been really limited. Impressive pieces of technology but game spread very thin based on combat and not very good combat at that.
This is why PvP is necessary - to add depth, to increase the possible player interactions in meaningful ways and numerous contexts. Otherwise the virtual world is paper thin. Ideally it would be guarded pvp in the sense that rational actors don't run amok 100% of the time or if they do it fizzles out with a swift and stable end to that performance.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Well, it's been pretty firmly established that for legal reasons, PFO can't use the OGL ruleset. The big question, then, will be how well it manages to feel like PFRPG.
Agreed. I wasn't aware of the legal element, but have understood from the earliest Goblinworks blog posts that the character advancement mechanics would be significantly different. Not terribly worried about mechanics. As you say, it is the "feel", or character/flavor/texture of the game that I'm mostly concerned with being true to PFRPG.
I think the PvE elements discussed will provide some of that...e.g. 4 guys walk into a tavern and find out the ostler's daughter has been kidnapped by evil goblins (themepark quests). Of course, the downside to this is once you've done the quest once, there's nothing new to a repeat experience.
Far more intriguing to me is how far the game design will go in providing people the capability to put on home-brew GM hats and coming up with their own quests...and bestowing those quests on other people. Yes, contracts will give some of that, but there is a limit to what can be done with contracts...escort this guy there, bring me 20 widgits, etc...
I wonder if the developers envision a player-accessible toolset to build their own bad-guy places/scenarios. That's something I'd willingly pay a premium for :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wonder if the developers envision a player-accessible toolset to build their own bad-guy places/scenarios. That's something I'd willingly pay a premium for :)
It was mentioned in the possibilities in one of the blogs.
One More Thing...
We have a vision of one more kind of PvE content; for historical reasons, we'll call it a "module." This is a scripted, fully designed adventure suitable for some number of characters of some specified power level. Some of these modules will likely be available to everyone for free. Others may be obtained via the use of in-game microtransaction currency. Modules you unlock would likely be instanced content available to just those characters you wish to adventure with, meaning each group that unlocks a given module will experience it as though it exists exclsuvely for them. (We have had discussions about how, even within instanced module content, there could be common areas that allow multiple groups to interact. Only time will tell how this concept develops and unfolds.)
For such instanced content, offering persistence is tricky. We want you to have the sense that the world changes based on your own successes or failures, and it would break that immersion if you could potentially play the same exact module multiple times. How we untangle that will be a challenge for the development team.
And there's even the chance that you might be able to create your own module content for other players—perhaps even on a for-profit basis. Imagine an "app store" for Pathfinder adventures! It's speculative at this point, but we want you to know that we see the potential, and we are just as interested as you in finding a way to get there.
They did also give a disclaimer it is pure speculation, and I think it probably will not be available anywhere near launch, but it is a possibility down the road that the devs have thought of.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The bottom line for me is this: I want to play an interesting, challenging game with many character growth options/paths. I do not want to pay money to become some snot-nosed idiot's virtual chewtoy.
Nobody, not even the most hardened open world PVPers wants or enjoys that. What you just described is the cold water you feel when first jumping into the pond. But once you have been at it awhile... It starts to get fun. Even from a low level you can generally learn to hide from or escape your opponents. As you progress you can start back to win.
The thrill of a chase and a narrow escape turns hauling a load of goods from a grind-like chore into a hard won victory.
And there is nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing, in any game even half as satisfying as the moment you get strong enough to go back into newb territory and kill your first griefer.
There may or may not be systems in place sufficient to stop most of the random newb ganking but I guarantee you that if you set yourself up to be part of what is keeping the newbs safe... you will have fun.
This game will only cater to pvp. simply put unless you can opt out it is only for pvp players which will turn away a lot of people. Trying to convince a person who likes pve to enjoy pvp is like having it the other way around. Pvp players are getting their way. Oh there a "penalties" to killing a player. oh how fun. The only way to get rid of pvp is not to have it at all or only option for the players who want to pvp and leave the pve people out of that equation just not out of the game as this game seems to be going. As a I said before it is only catering to pvp players. It saddens me that a game world I like like pathfinder brought to the online gaming has to be ruined for me by a bunch of pvp lovers. I hate how people say well this game isn't for you. Well it should. It should be for EVERYONE. Not just for a bunch of pvp. The whole game as I've seen it is catered only to the best fittest players who can kill anyone who gets in their way. The people who start playing first will have the early advantage of building up in this "Sandbox" creating a system like where you have two big "Kingdoms" controlling the game.
So I will be able to opt out of pvp? If not it is catering only to pvp.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So I will be able to opt out of pvp? If not it is catering only to pvp.
1. It will be possible to play in such a way that you never expose yourself to PvP, but that won't be very fulfilling.
2. It will be possible to play in such a way that you enjoy much of what the game has to offer, and minimize your exposure to PvP.
It is not a binary system where the only possible options are "allow players to opt out of PvP entirely" or "cater only to PvP".
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oh, ok, so the focus of the game is fighting over lands and organizations, not so much going out and killing ‘monsters’. That makes sense then in the PvP.
That sounds like a novel idea, but I wonder how that works when all the lands are taken up. How do new players join the game? Do they need to take it from existing land/territory owners? What about if someone is not able to log on for a long while and their land just sits?
I like the idea of owning a home, but never been big on politics, so wouldn’t want to worry about gaining territories or kingdoms, or having to try and defend them.
To be honest, I would be content on being the crafter in the city where I don’t have to fight. I have always enjoyed the crafting aspect in games (if done well). Would be interested to see how Goblinworks handles professions/crafting in the game.
You should be able to craft in town, and the best part is that people doing that will be an important part of the game. It may also be the road to riches for you.
Draelin, as a fellow tabletop gamer and also an early fan of this game, I would put it you that any tabletop roleplaying game since the original Dungeons & Dragons has been a player versus player experience.
First of all, let us remember that D&D was born out of wargaming. Wargaming is fundamentally a player versus player experience.
Now, how do I arrive at the conclusion that tabletop gaming is fundamentally a player versus player experience? Simple. You, the player, and your group, also players, are acting in opposition to your DM, who is effectively a player acting out a cast of hundreds if not thousands of characters. In many cases, your DM has crafted scenarios that are intended to challenge your characters and in some cases kill them.
Without risk, the thrill of reward is lessened. Without the risk that your DM is going to kill your character, I think it very likely that you would get bored as your character coasts through encounter after encounter.
Eventually, the simple acquisition of goods isn't enough for most gamers. In tabletop terms, it's that point where your characters have reached the upper echelons of power and you restart as a lowly level 1 character. I can count the number of tabletop gamers that I personally know who play beyond level 18 on one hand.
I'm not typing this out to try and detract from you in any way. Rather, I hope that you will give Pathfinder Online a chance. That's all that I would ask. Join a group like The Seventh Veil or the Empyrean Order. See what being in a group of like-minded individuals can do for you in a game like this. Yes, you may die once in a while but I'd wager you'll have a lot more fun in the intervening periods.
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And there is nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing, in any game even half as satisfying as the moment you get strong enough to go back into newb territory and kill your first griefer.
I really don't understand this. It sounds like it's about as much fun as taking out the trash, plunging a stubborn toilet or giving a dog a tick bath.
I think it would be satisfying to hear about a griefer getting banned from the game without me having to even lay a hand on a plunger.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I was just about to back the Kickstarter, then I saw the open-world PvP...lost all interest at that moment.
Open PvP in PFO hopefully won't be the serious cluster grope it is in EVE. Then again the difference there is GoblinWorks stance out the gate to counter griefing instead of tastily encouraging it. I'm a PvE carebare in my heart of hearts, however after spending time in EVE I'm quite open to a more managed Open PvP situation.
Most of the time in EVE, PvP was actually quite limited if you:
1) Flew smart and paid attention
2) Stayed to 'secure' areas
3) Didn't respond to provocations from griefers and "loot stealers"
With an anti-greifing stance going in PFO seem like it will be much enjoyable for the Open PvP then not. As a carebare I really do (and put money down on) GW getting that part of "meaningful" PvP working. The chaos of conflict in EVE was almost always entertaining, if sometimes aggravating provided you were willing to step outside the save "non-conflict" shell of a typical carebare play style.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you enjoy chess you enjoy PvP. If you enjoy tennis you enjoy PvP.
PvP can take many forms. Competition for profit in the market. Competition to mine a resource. In fact just about any competition is PvP.
The point is if you want to be heroic you need something heroic to go up against. Not a gigantic pinata made to look like a dragon, but a real villain. You cannot be brave unless you are at least a little bit afraid.
Every story, to be a story, has to have conflict. If you want to live out a story in PFO there will have to be conflict.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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...provided you were willing to step outside the save "non-conflict" shell of a typical carebare play style.I think, ultimately, I am not.
(I'm also concerned, based on past experiences, that players are not capable of creating engaging content that would draw me into a persistent world.)
And if you were randomly attacked by an AI wandering monster above your level instead of a player, would that be any better. Keeping in mind that areas your more likely to get attacked are also a higher reward (for your risk). Because in the end thats what open PvP is, a smarter wandering monster guarding the most valuable goodies.
By stepping outside the comfort zone I mean that you should be prepared to die. It is going to happen, be it from the AI or more likely at the hands of a player. If you can't get your head around occasional death then this game will never be for you, nor any open world game. Even in Minecraft on a non-PvP server you will die. Once you get over the fear of death and a bit of loss (as the trade-off for higher profit) then you are 90% of the way the way to being a Carebear in a PvP world. The other 10% is learning where the safer spots are.
You likely wont take me at my word but I was and am a carebear player. I generally don't like PvP when possible. Save for specific chosen instances. I was more then happy to do simple mission running until had built up a sufficient cushion of cash and gear. I then went out into the higher risk/higher reward spaces where PvP was less controlled.
I also used to be a mining boss in EVE, running crews of 12+ ships in belt mining, both safe and un-safe space. The important thing to be clear on is that you should not be alone. Most of the time I was doing missions or mining i was in a group of at least 3 or more. In low-sec (full PvP) mining we would also run with a small squad of PvPers for defense. We would also check local intel for troublemakers, keep an eye the region, and be ready to ditch if things started looking bad.
And that was EVE, which is way more PvP happy then I read the PFO devs want to go. More people doing PvP just to mess with people. If PFO is EVEs level of "meaningless" PvP it'll be fine, and if the devs can pull off their magic to make it less it will be glorious.
The last note and the important one, you should not be playing alone. Be it mining, exploring, dungeon delving, you should be in a group. EVEs failing for carebears was that it was very hard to find pickup groups. EVEs meta was so dark and the rater lax attitude toward griefing made it almost impossible to TRUST another player. This is where I hope very much GW can best EVE. If i want to carebear Good then I'm going to trust the Devs to have a system to insure other people with a Good tag are people I can trust.