I've heard many a tale of this mighty spreadsheet. Some say a single editor-warrior can save many hours conjuring Stat Blocks of Perfection with it.
I've heard legends that it was forged by the wizard SKR himself.
Is it possible the Lords of Paizo could release this for the admiring populace?
I would be happy to part with some gold coins for it.
Tagging SKR on this one...
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1) It's still unfinished.
2) It's not pretty, and not meant for public consumption because of that.
3) It's written for our version of Excel (2001), and testing has shown it has some bugs when it's used on a newer version of Excel.
4) There's no tutorial on how to use it.
5) It's easy to break it if you try something weird.
So it is very unlikely we'll officially release it.
But I've started to give the folks at Lone Wolf Development some feedback about Hero Lab so their software does exactly what we need it to do (much of which is matching our style for how things are phrased and capitalized in stat blocks), so you wouldn't be needing the spreadesheet anyway.
I may show some parts of it at PaizoCon, just so people get an idea of how clunky it is. I mean, it's a spreadsheet with 46 separate tabs...
I don't wanna empty my pockets for each book I already own... I just want a way to calculate a clean stat block in as little time as possible.
Not that my comment is really relevant, because you've dissuaded me wanting to use the spreadsheet.
I may be doomed to sticking to the old fashioned way.
<----- Digital Native
If you know what you're doing, it can build an accurate high-level or high-CR stat block in about 15 minutes, and even warns you if you over- or under-spend feats, your AC is too high or too low for its CR, and so on.
But it's not something meant for anyone whose brain isn't deep, deep into the game rules. :p
I'm surprised no one else out there in the gaming community has come up with their own Excel monster creation spreadsheet at this point. I've looked, and can't find anything at least (not even 3E).
That said, I'm sure it's not an easy task- I've sat down and taken a look into doing it myself and quickly gave up in horror at the enormity (although I'm hardly an Excel expert, so that's the main reason).
If you know what you're doing, it can build an accurate high-level or high-CR stat block in about 15 minutes, and even warns you if you over- or under-spend feats, your AC is too high or too low for its CR, and so on.
But it's not something meant for anyone whose brain isn't deep, deep into the game rules. :p
You've given me hope... but this might not be a good thing. I can spend 5 hours dismantling and figuring something out, if it means I can use it faster and better.
You're bragging because you're gonna release it right?
I'm surprised no one else out there in the gaming community has come up with their own Excel monster creation spreadsheet at this point. I've looked, and can't find anything at least (not even 3E).
I coulda sworn I saw Dennis "Ogre" Baker post some kind of stat block spreadsheet...
But anyway, the reason why nobody's done it to this extent is because the game is really complex with a lot of fiddly bits connecting everything together. Like I said, I've spent HUNDREDS of hours making this thing work. Few people have the (1) motivation and (2) return on time invested to create such a thing.
3) It's written for our version of Excel (2001), and testing has shown it has some bugs when it's used on a newer version of Excel.
I have Office 2000 installed, and occasionally use Excel 2000 (9.0.2720).
Can I haz cheezburger? Uh... I mean spreadsheet?
What if I promise to sign a confidentiality agreement?
Director of Brand Strategy
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I don't think folks understand how really clunky the spreadsheet is. Does it do the job? Yes. Is it user-friendly? Not at all. It's really not something most folks would find useful unless you needed to make a stat block to be published in a Paizo product (because it's currently the only thing that outputs a stat block in the right format). If you're not doing that, then Hero Lab is the way to go.
In any case, we're not giving it out to anyone who's not a freelancer, as it's not ready for public eyes--just as we wouldn't release an unedited playtest document on the website.
Old adages about sausages, and all that.
I think that "Ogre" is a different ogre.
"Never contradict me, it disgusts me." --Shatner
;)
What might be in order is a little database app that creates a really nice html stat block that can be copied and pasted into excel or word. More control and easier configuration than an excel solution. The app could be entirely web-based with user-specific customizations/profiles. The code should be portable and not require any name-brand database engine, instead using very simple files to store data. I created one of these long-long ago for use with 2e...
Does this notion seem worthy?
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Director of Brand Strategy
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Does this notion seem worthy?
Sounds awesome! But not really the same as what we use. We specifically don't want customization to maintain consistency across all our products, and we need something that someone in-house can tweak and fiddle with if we need a new rule added or find a glitch.
What you propose sounds cool, but it wouldn't be something we as developers would use when we're making books, though if you created one, I'm sure lots of fans would use it for their own games.
I'm surprised no one else out there in the gaming community has come up with their own Excel monster creation spreadsheet at this point. I've looked, and can't find anything at least (not even 3E).
That said, I'm sure it's not an easy task- I've sat down and taken a look into doing it myself and quickly gave up in horror at the enormity (although I'm hardly an Excel expert, so that's the main reason).
I created a Kingmaker spreadsheet and a very simple summoner-eidolon creation sheet for my girlfriend yet (and a lot of Excel sheets for my company work) and I have to tell you, as easy as it looks at the start, as difficult and complex it will be if you progress (and only want to add "this small thing.. and this... and this...").
Maybe I will take the challenge one day to create a "Monster Block Generator"... maybe
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Does this notion seem worthy?
It's an absolutely worthy objective. Be aware that it's also a ridiculous amount of work. The breadth and scope of Pathfinder is *huge*, and it's continually growing every day with all the new material that gets released.
Before you launch into this pursuit, consider two important examples...
The gang at PCGen developed a solid tool that has been adapted for Pathfinder. They are a volunteer effort and the sheer volume of material for Pathfinder has proven to be a daunting effort for them, with large portions of many of the major tomes still not yet added to the tool, despite the efforts and commitment of some really good folks.
The gang who do Hero Lab (of which I'm a part) have spent many years developing that product. We also have an additional 1.5 to 2.5 full-time employees (it can vary) plus a cadre of contractors working continuously on adding Pathfinder content. And that's just to keep up with the content that is being steadily released. It was a much bigger crunch to get caught up in the first place.
So that ought to give you an idea of what you're in for with this project. It's a mammoth task, but I'm certain there will be a lot of players who would appreciate it when you complete it. :)
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But I've started to give the folks at Lone Wolf Development some feedback about Hero Lab so their software does exactly what we need it to do (much of which is matching our style for how things are phrased and capitalized in stat blocks), so you wouldn't be needing the spreadesheet anyway.
(emphasis mine)
This. Oh, sweet fancy dancing gods, this. If the Hero Lab output matched the Paizo statblock style and formatting, it would be a real time-saver for those of us designing 3PP material.
Here's a middle-length formula from the Statistics section of the spreadsheet:
=IF(TopSection!$K$3,HLOOKUP(TopSection!$C$3,XXprebuiltmonstersDONOTUSE!$C$4 :$BI$153,XXprebuiltmonstersDONOTUSE!$B$84,FALSE),10)
If you entered a race in the TopSection tab's Race cell (C3), it searches for that race name (dwarf, goblin, front giant, tengu, etc.) on the prebuiltmonstersDONOTUSE tab. If there's a match, it pulls up the Str mod of that monster from the appropriate row and plugs that value into the Racial Str Mod cell in the spreadsheet. Obviously there are similar formulas for Dex, Con, and the other ability scores.
(Why is the tab called "prebuiltmonstersDONOTUSE"? Because if the user wanders over to the rightmost cells, that's where it stores data like BAB progression, weapon damage values for all creature sizes, and so on... things the user shouldn't mess with because it'll break things. So those not-for-users-to-touch tabs all have DONOTUSE as part of their names. :p)
I learned a LOT about Excel by writing this thing; many times I had to read up on how to do something before I could make the spreadsheet do it. Excel is surprisingly backwards in its terminology in many places. And there are things it can't do in one step (like "count how many cells aren't blank in this range so I know how many rogue talents you selected"), so I have to build a workaround in multiple cells so the formulas don't become indecipherable. Bleh.
I'm going to make an educated guess that it also has bugs when used on OpenOffice or other Excel-compatible, non-Microsoft spreadsheet programs.
And yes, as Mark tested for us. It's not unsalvageable, but it would require a lot of scrutiny to make sure it was working like how it's supposed to.
Heh. That line looks like one I used in a statistics-related spreadsheet once :)
Count me in as one of those who'd want to see this monstrosity, if only to marvel at it :)
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But I've started to give the folks at Lone Wolf Development some feedback about Hero Lab so their software does exactly what we need it to do (much of which is matching our style for how things are phrased and capitalized in stat blocks), so you wouldn't be needing the spreadesheet anyway.
(emphasis mine)
This. Oh, sweet fancy dancing gods, this. If the Hero Lab output matched the Paizo statblock style and formatting, it would be a real time-saver for those of us designing 3PP material.
We literally just got the first round of feedback from Sean late last week. So our first task is to work with Sean to flesh out the list and prioritize the changes that are needed. We also already have a huge pile of work to finish between now and GenCon (ARG, UE, RotL, etc.). On top of it all, Colen (the Hero Lab guru himself) is finally taking his honeymoon over the next few weeks.
Once we get a good handle on everything and have a viable plan in place, we'll let everyone know. So please stay tuned for more info, but please also be patient. :)
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Director of Brand Strategy
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If the Hero Lab output matched the Paizo statblock style and formatting, it would be a real time-saver for those of us designing 3PP material.
That's one reason we're working with Hero Lab to implement this optional output format, but also the reason we aren't likely to release our proprietary Excel spreadsheet. The same way most companies have internal tools they use to produce their material, Paizo has this as a way of maintaining consistency and accuracy in the products we produce. If 3PPs have their own tools or use HeroLab, that's cool, but the tools created by Paizo to help Paizo and our contracted freelancers are meant for internal use (which is why we haven't bothered to make this pretty or user-friendly).
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But I've started to give the folks at Lone Wolf Development some feedback about Hero Lab so their software does exactly what we need it to do (much of which is matching our style for how things are phrased and capitalized in stat blocks), so you wouldn't be needing the spreadesheet anyway.
(emphasis mine)
This. Oh, sweet fancy dancing gods, this. If the Hero Lab output matched the Paizo statblock style and formatting, it would be a real time-saver for those of us designing 3PP material.
We literally just got the first round of feedback from Sean late last week. So our first task is to work with Sean to flesh out the list and prioritize the changes that are needed. We also already have a huge pile of work to finish between now and GenCon (ARG, UE, RotL, etc.). On top of it all, Colen (the Hero Lab guru himself) is finally taking his honeymoon over the next few weeks.
Once we get a good handle on everything and have a viable plan in place, we'll let everyone know. So please stay tuned for more info, but please also be patient. :)
Completely reasonable, totally understandable.
Just know there is a market waiting for this product! I've specifically not getten the Hero Lab software because of the output formatting. Were that to change...cha-ching!
Also, congrats to Colen the Guru!
Here's a middle-length formula from the Statistics section of the spreadsheet:
=IF(TopSection!$K$3,HLOOKUP(TopSection!$C$3,XXprebuiltmonstersDONOTUSE!$C$4 :$BI$153,XXprebuiltmonstersDONOTUSE!$B$84,FALSE),10)
bah, amateur.
Lookup is so excel 97. Index & match is how all the cool kids do it these days :)
I can't always get INDEX and MATCH to do what I want, though. :p
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Yeah, I would not encourage people to hope Paizo releases this.
For example, as a freelancer I have the Excel sheet (a version of it, anyway). As a 3pp I often need stat blocks. When I'm freelancing for Paizo, I use their Excel sheet (that's what its there for). When writing for Super Genius Games... I don't. I normally use Hero Lab, old-fashioned pen-and-paper, or a combination of both.
Of course I am pretty well-versed in game mechanics, so I can often spot a mistake on a look-over. But even that's not perfect. But the Excel sheet isn't something I wrestle with when I don't have to.
An upgraded HL function would be awesome. THAT people should clamor for.
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Can't believe I just read an entire thread on Excel (outdated no less, but understandable why you haven't changed)! Too much IT in the Nerd... but it is very cool to hear you guys talk about it and remember some of the OH-MY-GOD Excel sheets I used to have to do for the company I used to be at... mainly because no one else could figure out how to do it. Amazing how Excel adaptability can follow you all over a company regardless of what your role is. (Financial Statements from the guy that used to be in Marketing and moved to IT? Really?) Was I ever glad to give that task up when I moved to the local University!
I ideally wish there was some 3PD like Lone Wolf, that I could persuade into making a Hero-Lab-esque builder for LARPs.
Anyway, I'm chiming in to say that I've had nightmares about SKRs speadsheet. Not because it's bad, just because it's...deeper and more twisted than Bastardhall.
I ideally wish there was some 3PD like Lone Wolf, that I could persuade into making a Hero-Lab-esque builder for LARPs.
Depending on what you want to accomplish, you most likely could use Hero Lab itself for your purposes. You could have someone create Hero Lab data files for the game mechanics you utilize. If you want to discuss this further, the person to contact is John Ryan (john <at> wolflair <dot> com).
Just throwing in my two pennies.
As a user of the mythical spreadsheet.. it works, and is good in many respects.
But don't be envious. Don't feel like you're missing out. Its like driving a stick shift when you only know how to drive an automatic at times. There are nuances to it.
As Owen says, you should hope for an upgraded HeroLabs that conforms to the internal formatting more.
Though there are times that HeroLabs makes me gnash my teeth.
I wasn't really asking for it seriously. I just thought it was funny that I am probably running a compatible version of Excel. (I've never heard of Excel 2001 though, I thought it went from 2000 to 2003.)
If there were a way to get it, I'd only get it as a curiosity. Actually, the same curiosity could probably be sated with a high resolution screenshot of the beast. (Perhaps with a sign that said "Do not feed the spreadsheet.")
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Director of Brand Strategy
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Actually, the same curiosity could probably be sated with a high resolution screenshot of the beast.
Because you asked so nicely...
As the caption suggests, though, it really is something that was never intended for anyone but Paizo staff and freelancers to use. It does what it needs to do well, but what it needs to do isn't be pretty or even that user-friendly.
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Creative Director
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I wasn't really asking for it seriously. I just thought it was funny that I am probably running a compatible version of Excel. (I've never heard of Excel 2001 though, I thought it went from 2000 to 2003.)
If there were a way to get it, I'd only get it as a curiosity. Actually, the same curiosity could probably be sated with a high resolution screenshot of the beast. (Perhaps with a sign that said "Do not feed the spreadsheet.")
My guess is that you're thinking of Excel for Windows. We use Macs at Paizo.
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I'm using my own xlsm file that i would be happy to share.
it's far from beeing complete still I can quickly encode all my player's data with it.
what I wanted was I simple sheet to fill in and that compute most of the bonus/malus. I started this sheet back to the 3rd edition and recently started to pathfinderized it recently
what it does:
you can multiclass up to 5 of the basic classes (and use the Sean K Reynolds's alternative level advencment using the abcd steps)
what still missing:
-number of known and cast spells
-alternatives racial /class traits
-integration of the feats and traits on the datas
you can try it here if you like (excel 2007+ is needed, dont try with another version, it will not work at all. and the macro need to be allowed as some home-made functions are used)
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/14722510/csheet.xlsm
I can't always get INDEX and MATCH to do what I want, though. :p
I once had an Excel spreadsheet I'd developed for a space-based online game. You could plug in your hull type, engine type(s), powerplant, shield generators, guns, missiles and performance modifiers. This would calculate pitch, yaw, acceleration curves, optimal power band (the more energy your engines use the less available for shields/guns, meaning you might throttle back to be able to fire at full gun rate.)
I bumped into Excel's per-cell formula length limit more than a few times and had to break things into unique cells to get around that. I can only imagine the nightmare required to cope with the sheer interaction and number of variables a PFRPG statblock creator must entail.
Hats off for retaining sanity.
My guess is that you're thinking of Excel for Windows. We use Macs at Paizo.
As much as I love my Mac, I'm just not a big fan of Excel on the Mac any more. I remember when it was really good. Now, it seems to kind of suck in comparison to its counterpart on Windows. But then, I suppose that's how Microsoft wants it.
As much as I love my Mac, I'm just not a big fan of Excel on the Mac any more. I remember when it was really good. Now, it seems to kind of suck in comparison to its counterpart on Windows. But then, I suppose that's how Microsoft wants it.
My guess is that you're thinking of Excel for Windows. We use Macs at Paizo.
You're assuming they want a quality product on ANY platform. It's not like they have a habit of releasing a new version where the command- or ctrl- shortcut letters don't refer to what they were before, or how most programs let you ctrl-G to "find again" but Word maps that to "Go to..." :p
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Chief Technical Officer
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My guess is that you're thinking of Excel for Windows. We use Macs at Paizo.I wasn't really asking for it seriously. I just thought it was funny that I am probably running a compatible version of Excel. (I've never heard of Excel 2001 though, I thought it went from 2000 to 2003.)
If there were a way to get it, I'd only get it as a curiosity. Actually, the same curiosity could probably be sated with a high resolution screenshot of the beast. (Perhaps with a sign that said "Do not feed the spreadsheet.")
It's actually called "Office X," from 2000. And its days at Paizo are numbered, because Office X doesn't run under OS X Lion (10.7) or newer, and as soon as Apple stops providing security updates for our 10.6 machines, we'll have to abandon it. Which means we need to get that HeroLab solution working sooner rather than later!
I have Excel 2002. *shrug*
One thing that always gets me in Excel is the difference between a blank cell and a cell that contains an empty result. COUNTA sees the first one as blank, but not the second, where COUNTBLANK and most other functions see it the other way around. :P
But then, I suppose that's how Microsoft wants it.You're assuming they want a quality product on ANY platform. It's not like they have a habit of releasing a new version where the command- or ctrl- shortcut letters don't refer to what they were before, or how most programs let you ctrl-G to "find again" but Word maps that to "Go to..." :p
They are in a pretty sad state of affairs.... says the guy who still fondly remembers Word 4.0 and Excel 1.5 (after installing the FPU extension on system 6.0.7) on his LC.
I have Excel 2002. *shrug*
One thing that always gets me in Excel is the difference between a blank cell and a cell that contains an empty result. COUNTA sees the first one as blank, but not the second, where COUNTBLANK and most other functions see it the other way around. :P
Welcome to my life!
In many cases (like for the prebuilt monster races, which are there so we can easily create a stone giant with the Bestiary data, tweak its ability scores or add class levels, and export a finished stat block) I actually have to fill "blank" cells with a ' so they don't make formulas barf. Because there's actually-blank, and has-a-single-quote-so-it-looks-blank-but-isn't-actually-blank, and some formulas explode when they encounter the former... :p
Welcome to my life!In many cases (like for the prebuilt monster races, which are there so we can easily create a stone giant with the Bestiary data, tweak its ability scores or add class levels, and export a finished stat block) I actually have to fill "blank" cells with a ' so they don't make formulas barf. Because there's actually-blank, and has-a-single-quote-so-it-looks-blank-but-isn't-actually-blank, and some formulas explode when they encounter the former... :p
I would like to say "Oh, here's a way around that." but I think you're right, there isn't one in Excel. I always try and make my formulas expect actual-blanks, but since a formula can't return an actual-blank result, that's probably not possible in such a large project. :/