Eidolon attacks


Rules Questions


If an Eidolon has multiple 'primary' attacks (IE Bite and 2 claws) can it make all three attacks as a full round action? I've read the rules on natural attacks and I'm still fairly confused. Anyone know exactly how multiple natural attacks that are all 'primary' attacks work that can fill me in? If you could point to the section of the rules that cover it I would love you forever.

Thanks.


Ad0ntis wrote:

If an Eidolon has multiple 'primary' attacks (IE Bite and 2 claws) can it make all three attacks as a full round action? I've read the rules on natural attacks and I'm still fairly confused. Anyone know exactly how multiple natural attacks that are all 'primary' attacks work that can fill me in? If you could point to the section of the rules that cover it I would love you forever.

Thanks.

I'm hoping for some clarification as well, I hope i'm just reading something wrong, because if i'm not, the summoner seems broken. At 12th lvl (our current party) My eidolon gets 5 attacks. All at +16. 1 Bite that does 2d8+24, and four slams that do 3d6+16. I can list feats and evolutions, but if i'm right, our party's fighter PALES in comparison. And my eidolon has reach. This is with no magic items. Just seems like they get to many attacks for their lvl with no penalties. (btw power attack is used in the above numbers) plz help me out here.

Scarab Sages

You can use all three attacks as a full round action. All attacks are at your normal attack bonus and receive your full strength bonus to damage.

Link


Artanthos wrote:
You can use all three attacks as a full round action. All attacks are at your normal attack bonus and receive your full strength bonus to damage.

I don't suppose you would know where it talks about this in the rulebook do you?


Ad0ntis wrote:

If an Eidolon has multiple 'primary' attacks (IE Bite and 2 claws) can it make all three attacks as a full round action? I've read the rules on natural attacks and I'm still fairly confused. Anyone know exactly how multiple natural attacks that are all 'primary' attacks work that can fill me in? If you could point to the section of the rules that cover it I would love you forever.

Thanks.

I hope this helps =D

Natural Attacks

Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and add the creature’s full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature’s base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type.

Some creatures treat one or more of their attacks differently, such as Dragons, which always receive 1-1/2 times their Strength bonus on damage rolls with their bite attack. These exceptions are noted in the creature’s description.

Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type.

Some creatures do not have natural attacks. These creatures can make unarmed strikes just like humans do. See Table: Natural Attacks by Size for typical damage values for natural attacks by creature size.

Format: bite +5 (1d6+1), 2 claws +5 (1d4+2), 4 tentacles +0 (1d4+1); Location: Melee and Ranged.


I found that entry under the "universal monster rules" for natural attacks.

If the weapons/claws/bites/whatever are primary, they would seem to get all of them at their best bonus. Otherwise it would look like all secondaries would have the standard penalties.


I really think that the eidolon is better than a fighter of it's summoner's equal lvl. Wouldn't that be a problem with balance?


Welcome to one of the most marginalizing classes in the game.

When taking a full attack action, you use all of your natural attacks. You can check out the rules here.

This means that if you look at a monster's attack line, and see "bite +5 (1d6+1), 2 claws +5 (1d4+2)", they get three attacks on a full-attack action. One is a bite with a +5 bonus to hit, and does 1d6+1 damage, and they get two claw attacks, each at +5 bonus to hit, and dealing 1d4+2 damage.

Going by the link above (which I guess you've read already), the fact that they're all primary means that you don't take the -5 penalty to-hit that secondary attacks have, and you do your full strength modifier to damage.


Podok wrote:
I really think that the eidolon is better than a fighter of it's summoner's equal lvl. Wouldn't that be a problem with balance?

Yes. The summoner is one of the strongest classes in the game, and it's very easy to make an eidolon that will do better than most even half-way optimized martial types.

Scarab Sages

Podok wrote:


I'm hoping for some clarification as well, I hope i'm just reading something wrong, because if i'm not, the summoner seems broken. At 12th lvl (our current party) My eidolon gets 5 attacks. All at +16. 1 Bite that does 2d8+24, and four slams that do 3d6+16. I can list feats and evolutions, but if i'm right, our party's fighter PALES in comparison. And my eidolon has reach. This is with no magic items. Just seems like they get to many attacks for their lvl with no penalties. (btw power attack is used in the above numbers) plz help me out here.

A dual weilding fighter will be receiving 6 attacks per round at this point.

While having a lower chance to hit on some attacks, he will potentially have a 15+ crit range as opposed to the 20 an eidolon will have.

I also suspect there are problems with the eidolon build.

1. Natural attacks only do 1.5 strength if the creatures has only a single attack (as per Natural Attack rules)

2. Slam is only 1 per set of limbs, he would need a huge evolution point investment for 4 slams.

If you could post his build, I am sure people will point out problems.


Also, keep in mind that the fighter will have full BAB plus weapon training. The eidolon effectively has 3/4 BAB (it's actually full BAB but 3/4 HD). So the fighter has a fairly significant bonus to hitting in the first place. It may or may not outweigh the damage, but it is a significant factor to consider.


Artanthos wrote:
Podok wrote:


I'm hoping for some clarification as well, I hope i'm just reading something wrong, because if i'm not, the summoner seems broken. At 12th lvl (our current party) My eidolon gets 5 attacks. All at +16. 1 Bite that does 2d8+24, and four slams that do 3d6+16. I can list feats and evolutions, but if i'm right, our party's fighter PALES in comparison. And my eidolon has reach. This is with no magic items. Just seems like they get to many attacks for their lvl with no penalties. (btw power attack is used in the above numbers) plz help me out here.

A dual weilding fighter will be receiving 6 attacks per round at this point.

While having a lower chance to hit on some attacks, he will potentially have a 15+ crit range as opposed to the 20 an eidolon will have.

I also suspect there are problems with the eidolon build.

1. Natural attacks only do 1.5 strength if the creatures has only a single attack (as per Natural Attack rules)

2. Slam is only 1 per set of limbs, he would need a huge evolution point investment for 4 slams.

If you could post his build, I am sure people will point out problems.

Well for starters, The one slam per two arms things is helpful, because we have that wrong.


Ok, incoming wall of text. Note that we now know some of this is wrong. I'll post the build and you point out what we've messed up. Biped base. Lvl 12 summoner. Total of 19 evo points (three from feats). Limbs-arms for free, limbs-legs for free, Claws for free. stats ended up as follows

str:30 ac: 25 (10 base, -1 size, +2 dex, +14 natural)
dex:15
con:18
int:7
wis:10
cha:11

one evo point was spent turning claws into slam.
two evo points spent on limbs-arms (four total now).
One on slam for the new arms.
One on improved damage-slam.
two purchasing bite twice, once for the attack, once for 1.5str
one on improved damage bite.
four for the increase to large
four for spell resistance
three for dr 5/lawful

one ability increase went to con, the other to str.
feats are as follows: improved natural attack bite. improved natural attack slam. Power attack. improved bullrush. awesome blow.

we came up with (factoring in power attack) Bite +16 2d8+24 and Four Slams at +16 3d8+16. this, (if even close to right) added with reach, and some magic items just dwarfed our fighter. made him look like a peasant with a magic bastard sword. I'm sure some of our build is wrong, so point it out if you would be so kind. ty


Bump


Podok wrote:
Bump

It takes two arms to slam. Your beastie would only have two slam attacks, not four.

Slam (Ex)

An eidolon can deliver a devastating slam attack. This attack is a primary attack. The slam deals 1d8 points of damage (2d6 if Large, 2d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs (arms) evolution to take this evolution. Alternatively, the eidolon can replace the claws from its base form with this slam attack (this still costs 1 evolution point). This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the limbs evolution.

notice how it says "replace the claws(plural)...with this slam attack(singular)"

RAW, you swap two for one.


You cannot purchase bite twice. The only way to vet the 1.5dg is if your base form gives it to you as fr as i know


shrodingerscat wrote:
Podok wrote:
Bump

It takes two arms to slam. Your beastie would only have two slam attacks, not four.

Slam (Ex)

An eidolon can deliver a devastating slam attack. This attack is a primary attack. The slam deals 1d8 points of damage (2d6 if Large, 2d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs (arms) evolution to take this evolution. Alternatively, the eidolon can replace the claws from its base form with this slam attack (this still costs 1 evolution point). This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the limbs evolution.

notice how it says "replace the claws(plural)...with this slam attack(singular)"

RAW, you swap two for one.

Fair enough, so swapping slam for claws lowers the damage a lil, goes from 3d6 to 2d6. losin half str from the bite makes it 2d8+16 instead of +24. So i'll spend the 2 points I just got back on rend, adding a possible 2d6+15, meaning it does even more damage than i thought it did before lol. still seem slike insane damage potential for the lvl.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

A question about the bite/slam/claws attack routine.

It is possible for a humanoid shaped eidolon to make a 2claws/1 bite/1 slam attack routine if she is capable to make 4 attacks?

The idea is to make 2 clawed feet attacks, 1 slam attack with the arms and 1 bite. She will attack like a velociraptor, jumping on the target for the feet claw attacks, biting it and delivering a blow with her arms.


Before we get into more builds/combos, can anyone give me their thoughts on balance? If i'd rather be the eidolon 9 times out of 10 as compared to a fighter of the summoners equal level not counting the buffs of the summoner, shouldn't something change? I ask becuase i love the concept of the summoner and would like to continue playing one, but as it stands, i cant justify the power of the eidolon.


shamless self bump #2


Podok wrote:
shamless self bump #2

and #3


I know the perfect build of the eidolon. Shortly, biped, claws, extra limbs, rending fury feats, evolution that inflict damage, boots of speed, amulet of mighty fists. I do at least 231 damage if I hit with 3 out of 6 attacks.


But from the rules it says that monsters always get only their bab on attack rolls. Its specific in that you don't add strength bonus to your attack bonus as a monster. So that +16 to hit would still just be the +5 from bab and not add the +11 from strength.


Mojorat wrote:
You cannot purchase bite twice. The only way to vet the 1.5dg is if your base form gives it to you as fr as i know

From the PRD:

Quote:
Bite (Ex): An eidolon's maw is full of razor-sharp teeth, giving it a bite attack. This attack is a primary attack. The bite deals 1d6 points of damage (1d8 if Large, 2d6 if Huge). If the eidolon already has a bite attack, this evolution allows it to deal 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier on damage rolls made with its bite.

There is no restriction on it being the only attack made in the round.

-S


From the universal monster rules
"Primary attacks are made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and add the creature’s full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature’s base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls."
It says "full BASE attack bonus" not "full attack bonus"
Base attack bonus is derived from level or HD of the critter. Where as attack bonus is bab+srt bonus+size mod.
It also specifies that you add the str bonus to damage,like normal PCs.
The fact that it specifies that "full bab" and not just attack bonus means that you wouldn't add str bonus and size mod on you "to hit" rolls,simply add you bab.
Theb you see the eidolon go from powerhouse that's shredding when compared to your partys dedicated damager into something more reasonable.

I play a summoner and am constantly finding things like this when I have my eidolon wreck house and want to find out why that cr+3 team was taken out by just my one critter and a few bolts from a crossbow.

If anyone has a different take other than "they accidently added the word "base" and meant for them to act the same as a PC" I'm all willing to hear it. I love taking down and constantly tripping everything with my reached bite, so if you can rationalize him back into my game I want it :)
Hope this helps some,or at least generates some good discussion.
PHINIX


Phinix, I think it may be an oversight in the text or the author may have intended to put stress on the fractional part of the math and not whether or not a bonus was applied at all.

Look at any monster and see that str is factored in to its attack bonus. Here are the first two I looked up at random.

Elder Thing
Melee 5 tentacles +7 (1d4+2 plus grab)
Str 15
Base Atk +5

Shadow Mastiff
Melee bite +10 (1d8+6 plus trip), tail slap +5 (1d6+3)
Str 19
Base Atk +6


That's how I had been playing it until I went from a pounce, bite ,claws x2 and rend build that could tear into a baddie each round to a more battlefield control build of pounce,bite,bite,trip,reach on bite. With the feat that let's your dex bonus give extra aoas, he can bite,free trip on landing a bite and reach on that whole mix let's my melee party members get a prone bonus and can stop many reloads and spells on the spot. My dm and I went over the numbers to keep it legal,having learned and grown through a few other games and revised my guy a few times as we dug up new or more correct rules.
I figured that was the case,and thank you Sitri. I said the same and my dm was saying because of how it was worded that that must have been the intent.
So I saw my neat "battlefield control" that had been a rape beast be TOTALLY unable to land more than 2 attacks all session. A large quad build with a bab or 3 and a str bonus of 9 land 2 hits and do a nice bit of damage but just missmissmiss the rest of the time.
Thanks again.
PHINIX

The Exchange

Hi Guy's
I have little confused, Should we add STR bonus to attack of eidolons or just BAB should I add ,

Natural attack explanation actually seems clear ""Primary attacks are made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and add the creature’s full Strength bonus on damage rolls"

However , All animals add str bonus to their attack at Bestiary,

What is the last decision

Regards,

Sinancak


I've played summoner for maybe 2 years now and that whole first year was me revamping my sheets for both summoner and eidolon every time I read the books. I would find a wording that would make me shift a lot of my numbers. Level up, learn a new ability or stat change and then dig through the rules and find that it couldn't work based on X, make the corrections and get caught in the same problem soon there after.
I think the intention was for the "to hit" attack roll to be used as the rest of the monsters in the universe have it: str mod and bab. As Sitri pointed out, that's how the numbers fall in the books. The linguistition in me was saying RAW, due to wording, it would mean not including the str mod. However, our belief is that it falls inline with the rest of the monsters or else the "universal monster rules" would mean that all the monsters somehow get a huge boost from no where that perfectly matches their str mod.

Flesh out a level 5 eidolon and make one with no str mod on its attack rolls and one with, then make it fight a mock battle and watch how totally useless it is in the "without the str mod" version, it can't hit anything evenly leveled.

I hope this helps.
PHINIX


im playing a lion folk, barbarian2/ranger(beast master)3.
I have 2 primary claw attacks and when I rage I picked up the bite so this blog helps as I was confused as well

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