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One problem I have with DEX builds is that even though they make great Lore Wardens, the best weapons for tripping (polearms) can't be finessed.
Whips work and all, but when you run into something bigger than large, or that can fly, have fun with your 1d3+1 damage.
Eventually, the Lore Warden bonus will outstrip the +2 from a trip weapon, and IMO, you can't be a Lore Warden with a low Dex. You have no medium or heavy armor proficiency.
Sickles are trip weapons, and also light weapons.
Part of the draw, for me, of the Dex build, is tripping or disarming in combination with Two Weapon Fighting. By 3rd or 4th level, a TWF LW can trip and disarm in the same turn, or trip/disarm two enemies. With combat reflexes, you can trip and disarm the same person, costing them two move actions to recover, giving you two AoOs (not to mention the AoOs any of your friends have), and negating their whole turn.
Eventually, with Improved TWF and a +6 or higher BAB, a tripper LW can sweep a whole group of enemies off their feet.
Another advantage of the TWF build is that your damage is not completely horrible. Yes, the Falchion Barb will out damage you against big monsters, but I'm kind of OK with that, since a tripper will often prove themselves useful by completely nerfing Large or smaller enemies, and TWFing DPR is still enough to allow you to contribute against big monsters.
...and if you need that Enlarge person potion, go for it. The size bonus and Dex penalty cancel each other out as far as maneuvers go.
I admit, Lore Wardens are definitely more effective at the low and middle levels, when things are more likely to be humanoid, armed, and not flying. At the higher levels, I would likely branch out, taking a level of Maneuver Master Monk, Agile Maneuvers, and grabbing feats for other maneuvers like Dirty Trick and Grapple. However, I think those aren't really necessary until you're tangling with giants and dragons on a regular basis, which is not really within the realm of the single digit levels.
Lore Wardens are definitely better against humanoid opponents, which for a character built to be a Swashbuckling type, might be appropriate.
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you misunderstand. I don't feel polearms are the best tripping weapons because many of them carry the special "trip" ability. That merely allows you to drop the weapon instead of falling prone. Honestly, Id prefer holding my valuable weapon instead of allowing it to fall into enemy hands anyway.
Polearms are the best tripping weapon because of reach, but also because they do respectable damage and can be 2handed with Power Attack for decent damage should tripping not be an option.
Sickles, Hanbos, Whips, etc. do not have that unique combination. Sickles and Hanbos can be used with finesse, have the trip ability, and can be used to better effect in conjunction with the Vicious Stomp feat.
However, they dont have reach, and being light weapons cannot be 2 handed. Hence polearms are still superior as tripping weapons that can also deal damage.
What I like about TWF is that you get two attacks. It is possible to Trip someone, and then make an attack at your full BAB. Or make two trip attempts. Or a trip and a disarm. I understand that it's not as necessary once your BAB splits, but surviving those first five levels would probably be more likely with two attacks. Dex builds in general are going to lose the damage race every time, so I believe that it's necessary to focus on other advantages.
When it comes down to it, TWF, especially at higher levels where you get a lot of static "plus something per hit" damage bonuses, can compete with THF damage. Especially on Dex builds where you aren't going to get as much out of x1.5 Str to damage.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Eventually, the Lore Warden bonus will outstrip the +2 from a trip weaponTrip weapons don't grant a +2.Nice catch. I'm not sure how I got it my head that they did.
Probably the same way everyone else does: because the often-paired-with-trip Disarm does get a +2 from an appropriate weapon.
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Probably the same way everyone else does: because the often-paired-with-trip Disarm does get a +2 from an appropriate weapon.Eventually, the Lore Warden bonus will outstrip the +2 from a trip weaponTrip weapons don't grant a +2.Nice catch. I'm not sure how I got it my head that they did.
Yeah, you got me.
I've started actually typing up something resembling a coherent guide. I'll try to post to google docs when I have more than a paragraph.
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Plus, if you have any Rogues or Ninjas in the party, they will really appreciate anything that negates a Dex bonus
I don't think grappled will allow a rogue to sneak attack via the -4 penalty to dexterity. There is nothing in the text that says they lose their dex bonus to ac nor does it call them out as being flat footed.
A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.
A grappled creature cannot use Stealth to hide from the creature grappling it, even if a special ability, such as hide in plain sight, would normally allow it to do so. If a grappled creature becomes invisible, through a spell or other ability, it gains a +2 circumstance bonus on its CMD to avoid being grappled, but receives no other benefit.
That brings me up to another question, since you don't make AOO's while grappled, in effect you won't threaten? So your Sneak Attack character could NOT use you as a flank?
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Plus, if you have any Rogues or Ninjas in the party, they will really appreciate anything that negates a Dex bonusI don't think grappled will allow a rogue to sneak attack via the -4 penalty to dexterity. There is nothing in the text that says they lose their dex bonus to ac nor does it call them out as being flat footed.
Nice catch. Legacy 3.5 issue. I remember back when it used to. The Rogues in my group would use "the grab and stab" in every fight that they could.
UPDATE: It's been corrected. Dirty Trick is so necessary at high levels.
Tomorrow I'll make the introduction section more coherent, finish spelling out the mechanical justifications for high Dex and add the color guide.
You should probably make a new thread so you can link to the guide in the OP. I didn't notice the link on page 3 and ended up scrolling through the entire thread just to be safe, trying to find it. Finding it will only get harder as this thread grows.
For "what to do with your free hand" portion covering Dervish Dance, you should definitely mention both Crane Wing and Flagbearer feats.
Grapple is actually kind of special for combat maneuvers, in that you are not size-restricted. So to pin the tarrasque you don't need to get supersized and take big hits to dex. The downside is that it's not considered a "weapon-based" maneuver (sure it is; unarmed! wtf?!), and Agile Maneuvers is an absolute trap and waste of a feat. These is a way to solve this, though...
Start as a small race and use reduce person! By RAW, anything size tiny or smaller uses dex on ALL attack rolls (combat maneuvers are attacks)! The downsides include losing all natural reach and thus forcing you to move into other's squares and never benefit from flanking; and probably losing 1-2 points of armor and/or shield-based AC (armor/shield bonuses to AC, from physical armor/shield, are halved for tiny creatures; enhancement bonuses are not, though).
But dex-based grappling IS an option w/o wasting a feat.
Another thing possibly worth noting is that according to the blog post that changed the rules for trip weapons, trip weapons now have the added benefit of being used for drag and reposition maneuvers. So yet more maneuver options that don't require agile maneuvers! ...if you can find a good finesseable trip weapon.
There is a special exception to the above rules. If you’re using a weapon with the trip special feature, and you’re attempting a drag or reposition combat maneuver (Advanced Player’s Guide 321–322), you may apply the weapon’s bonuses to the roll because trip weapons are also suitable for dragging and repositioning (this also means we don’t have to add “drag” and “reposition” weapon properties to existing weapons).
Back in 2012, when all of those posts were made, Slashing Grace didn't exist.