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Continued from this thread, which Mike got driven out of due to latent negativity.
During a tangential discussion of racial boons, Mike said the following:
Actually, there is a better chance of us doing anything that has been suggested above when other options are provided that we can use to draw people to conventions, that is at least as popular, if not more so, as the race boons. We asked for that before and still haven't received a good answer.
Since it was a tangent in the other thread anyway, and the discussion seemed to be going somewhere, I think it would be useful to keep talking about it.
The idea is that racial boons should be opened up either as a reward for DM stars, or even to the general player-base, to be replaced as con-exclusive boons with other shiny character extras. The rational for this change being that races are published character options and having them as boons feels like a restriction on most people, while other exclusive bonuses are purely extra rewards for a character. The rewards for being able to participate in a con should be purely exclusive bonuses, and not special access to published character options.
No negativity people, lets actually have a conversation about this.
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There were plenty of other shiny options at Gen Con 2011.
A permanent +2 Perception.
An Immunity to a single affliction (disease, poison, or curse).
And several other things that gave a character a bonus.
The one thing that made everyone ooh and ah were the race boons.
I think these should remain as the primary draw for convention boons.
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Cross posted from the negative thread:
I really liked the boon that Kyle Pratt had for his cleric. I think it was from PaizoCon 2009? He was going around trying to convert NPCs to his faith. Getting a boon like that at a convention would be sweet. Some how wording it so it could only be tried at "Paizo Supported" conventions would get me to at least go for a slot.
That said, I'm not sure exactly what he got for completing all of that, but maybe we could do something similar for the factions:
- Each faction has it's own set of X unique chronicles.
- The chronicle is two-fold: It requires the PC to do something in a scenario that aligns with the goals of their faction. It provides either its own small boon (+1 to a certain skill perhaps) and/or it provides a piece to a much larger boon that aligns with the faction growing in influence (perhaps a permanent PP or Fame boost). The larger boon is only gained after X-Y successful unique chronicles.
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I would give my support to open up boons as reward for GM stars.
A race boon for 1 GM star (limited races available - could be like Tiefling/Damphir)
Two race boons for the second GM star. These boons can't be used by the GM himself but he can hand them out to local groups - for example a home group or a 1 table/month meeting that otherwise would never be eligible. This boon is also relative restricted in races available (2 races of Mikes chosing)
A race boon for the 3rd GM star (a much bigger selection of races available)
This won't be backwards compatible but to ensure existing GMs don't lose out, they should be able to get the 3rd GM star boon if they reach 4th or 5th star and have reached the 3rd star prior to this being implemented.
I guess existing 5star GMs had enough chances to get boons but please let me know if you feel discriminated.
Reasoning:
a) it doesn't cost Paizo much to implement it - just a way to make the boons downloadable
b) the main complaint I have heard is - I don't have a chance to ever get a (race) boon because I'm in an area with limited gamers / don't have the resources to go to conventions. This enables someone active to still be able to get such a boon.
c) GMs are the backbone of the society. They reach a far wider population of customers as you can ever reach if you only target con goers.
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Not to bring negativity into this, but Mike has stated prior to this thread recently (<1 year) that race boons would not be tied to GM rewards. Though, he is looking into GM rewards on other levels, or something to that effect. His comments were in the catfolk thread. Not to say he won't come in here and make me look like an idiot. I just want to set expectations based on what's been said recently
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Something I wanted to address...
Oh, and I also need an answer to give people who complain because they can't get to a con to get a +1 to a stat or an SLA or higher level CR purchase power boon, much like what I am hearing here about people who can't get to a con to get a racial boon. Afterall, the boons you are going to list for me are going to be as good, or better, than the race boons, which means the cries of unfairness will be even louder.
To me (clearly speaking for myself) the difference here is the same as the free "Get out of death" boon from the BB. It's not already in a book.
Again, the ARG is going to put the races in the boons "Out there" in the wild, if not in PFS, also the Blood of X books are aimed at those races and it makes those books 'dead weight' for the average PFS player. a +1 to a stat, a free raise dead an at will prestidigitation (If you can't have fun with an at will prestidigitation, you have no soul), all aren't in any books. Such things reward going to cons, running events, etc etc, but don't deny anything to a player who has bought the book with X in it.
Now as to boons.
- Premature access to a vanity (I know at least one player who is saving prestige just to get one of the vanities for their character)
-Faction Boons
- Taldor - Noble bearing. +4 on diplomacy with Taldor nobility, +2 on intimidate with peseants. (likely needs to be stronger)
- Cheliax - Legal tongue. +2 on Sense Motive, +2 on bluff vs humaniods.
- Andoran - Inspiring Freedom. +1 compentence bonus on skill checks, saves and to hit rolls when dealing with known slavers.
- Lantern Lodge - Serene mein. +2 on concentration checks.
- Shadow Lodge - Both sides of the fence. You may complete Shadow Lodge or Grand Lodge missions for prestige (still maximum 2 per scenario).
-Deity Boons
- Cayden's Blessing- As a follower of Cayden you gain a +2 sacred bonus vs injested toxins and halve the hardness for sunder attempts for cell doors, chains or anything else the GM feels pertains to restraints.
- Caliistra's Blessing- As a follower of the Savoured Sting, you gain a +1 sacred bonus on all saves vs poison, and can do lethal damage with a whip.
For some starters.
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I just thought of the perfect Convention Boon:
--------+--------
Exceptional Recruit
Apply this boon to a brand-new PC. That PC gains 3XP, 4 Prestige/Fame, and 1,100gp.
--------+--------
Basically, you get to start a new PC at 2nd level instead of 1st. The PP and GP are a little low to balance the lack of risk and the free-ness of it (though the numbers could be adjusted), but I bet people would still come to Cons for it.
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Daniel
Thanks for the comment in regard to tying it to GM rewards. I had forgotten about them as it is a while ago. And it is useful to know why maybe some idea won't have any chance to be taken up.
So I hope that Mike/Paizo will roll out something a lot better. But should this not happen in the forseeable future then the boons for GMs might be a fall back.
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I really liked the boon that Kyle Pratt had for his cleric. I think it was from PaizoCon 2009? He was going around trying to convert NPCs to his faith. Getting a boon like that at a convention would be sweet. Some how wording it so it could only be tried at "Paizo Supported" conventions would get me to at least go for a slot.
That said, I'm not sure exactly what he got for completing all of that, but maybe we could do something similar for the factions:
- Each faction has it's own set of X unique chronicles.
- The chronicle is two-fold: It requires the PC to do something in a scenario that aligns with the goals of their faction. It provides either its own small boon (+1 to a certain skill perhaps) and/or it provides a piece to a much larger boon that aligns with the faction growing in influence (perhaps a permanent PP or Fame boost). The larger boon is only gained after X-Y successful unique chronicles.
I like this idea for Faction boons. The boon was stand-alone but had spaces to record the names of each of the NPCs converted, so a Faction boon could leave a space for the recording of NPCs or events encountered that fit the Faction goal. The boon only granted a benefit once all ten entries were filled.
If it's alright by you, I will start drawing up some possibilities for this concept.
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The thing is, these have to be equal or more desirable than a racial boon. The free vanity boon has already been done, the skill boosts have already been done.
What can draw players to a local convention better than offering the chance to win an exclusive race? A free raise dead? No.
So think, what would make you want to come to Iowa City to Gamicon? What would draw you to come from across the country, across a state, etc? The racial boons were a huge draw for me locally and I know for a fact they have been a huge boost to con attendance with other organizers.
Matthew, those are some good ideas for vanities or side rewards for a chronicle, but they do not equal the draw of being able to play a race.
Access to higher level guns?
Have your PC become a member of the Decemvirate?
Name an NPC in an upcoming scenario?
These are more equivalent to a starting race than a +2 vs something or other. They have to be something that will make you upset that you weren't able to go and get one, like the racial boons.
Anyone can brush off missing a chance at a +1 to your AC against goblins. Missing the chance at playing a Nagaji is much worse, and that is the lure that we are looking for.
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The thing is, these have to be equal or more desirable than a racial boon. The free vanity boon has already been done, the skill boosts have already been done.
What can draw players to a local convention better than offering the chance to win an exclusive race? A free raise dead? No.
So think, what would make you want to come to Iowa City to Gamicon? What would draw you to come from across the country, across a state, etc? The racial boons were a huge draw for me locally and I know for a fact they have been a huge boost to con attendance with other organizers.
Matthew, those are some good ideas for vanities or side rewards for a chronicle, but they do not equal the draw of being able to play a race.
Access to higher level guns?
Have your PC become a member of the Decemvirate?
Name an NPC in an upcoming scenario?These are more equivalent to a starting race than a +2 vs something or other. They have to be something that will make you upset that you weren't able to go and get one, like the racial boons.
Anyone can brush off missing a chance at a +1 to your AC against goblins. Missing the chance at playing a Nagaji is much worse, and that is the lure that we are looking for.
This!
And (not talking to you for the rest of this Todd) if you are going to honestly give feedback on what should be given as a Con Exclusive Boon, you have to be able to do so without the emotion behind wanting a race boon but being unable to attend a con.
What would get you to save your money and vacation time, get up and go attend a con?
If there isn't anything, then you are the wrong person to be adding to this conversation.
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The thing is, these have to be equal or more desirable than a racial boon. The free vanity boon has already been done, the skill boosts have already been done.
Well, what would your feedback be on some of my ideas?
• Permanent +1 to CON
• Permanent +1 to physical stat of choice
• Permanent +1 to mental stat of choice
• Permanent +1 to stat of choice
• X/day quickened true strike SLA
• Give a brand new PC a free jump to 2nd level (3XP, 4PP/Fame, 1,100-ish gp)
These all mimic races in their permanence and power (or I think so), and are unique without feeling like everyone else is restricted. What are your thoughts?
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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I really liked the boon that Kyle Pratt had for his cleric. I think it was from PaizoCon 2009? He was going around trying to convert NPCs to his faith. Getting a boon like that at a convention would be sweet. Some how wording it so it could only be tried at "Paizo Supported" conventions would get me to at least go for a slot.
I GM'd for that cleric a while ago. It was a memorable experience ;)
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Also,
Keep in mind, any kind of boon that grants, essentially, extra gold, that would actually draw someone to a convention, is likely to be too powerful and break the WBL.
So a chance to spend more PP or have access to higher cost items with a lower Fame, more gold to spend, etc.
To make these attractive enough to draw someone to a con that wouldn't ordinarily go to a con, would have to be pretty egregiously game-breaking.
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Some things from the other thread which I would trade a race boon for, and which might draw me to a con:
...a bunch of the other things that Jiggy came up with.
More advanced guns would bring me to a con from like three states over (East Coast, not West Coast states).
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The thing is, these have to be equal or more desirable than a racial boon. The free vanity boon has already been done, the skill boosts have already been done.Well, what would your feedback be on some of my ideas?
• Permanent +1 to CON
• Permanent +1 to physical stat of choice
• Permanent +1 to mental stat of choice
• Permanent +1 to stat of choice
• X/day quickened true strike SLA
• Give a brand new PC a free jump to 2nd level (3XP, 4PP/Fame, 1,100-ish gp)These all mimic races in their permanence and power (or I think so), and are unique without feeling like everyone else is restricted. What are your thoughts?
A permanent +1 to a stat is likely not going to draw people to a con that wouldn't otherwise go to a con.
The chance to play a strange and exotic race does that.
Think RPG Superstar level. Are we talking about a ring of jumping? Or are we talking about really gonzo widget #7 that's really cool and everyone will want one?
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Well, what would your feedback be on some of my ideas?
• Give a brand new PC a free jump to 2nd level (3XP, 4PP/Fame, 1,100-ish gp)
As a fan of bizarre mechanics and new concepts, the spontaneous, introductory level boost is intriguing. The flat bonuses to stats are conceptually less interesting, but they might be implemented in a clever way to make them seem more flavorful, more "earned," or both. E.g. having to perform a few tasks to unlock a powerful boost would add more to the campaign experience than just a boon saying "Hey! You get more Strength!"
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Some things from the other thread which I would trade a race boon for, and which might draw me to a con:
+1 to a stat.
pretty much any SLA
the ability to purchase scroll s at higher than minimum caster level.
access to an otherwise unavailable item (like Celestial Plate or a Staff of Mithral Might)
...a bunch of the other things that Jiggy came up with.More advanced guns would bring me to a con from like three states over (East Coast, not West Coast states).
And the only thing on this list that is likely (and probably not very) to even be considered is the +1 to a Stat. Which in my mind is Meh at best.
Adding an SLA to a character that they essentially didn't have to pay for is too powerful.
The ability to purchase scrolls at higher caster level is a huge potential nightmare.
Items that you couldn't otherwise purchase based on how much they cost, even assuming you manage to get your character to 16th level, aren't really a boon to get access to them.
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I'd be super-excited if my Con of the North boon had given Cledwyn the ability to cast quickened true strike even once per day. I can sort of see your point on the stat boosts, but they might be borderline as others have said they'd be all over those.
But a 4th-level SLA that works with almost any character is a pretty sweet treat.
A free level? Come on, surely someone like that one, right?
Or removing a rule: no longer restricted (with this one PC) to buy magic consumables at minimum caster level. How sweet would that be?
EDIT: Ninja'd.
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I'd be super-excited if my Con of the North boon had given Cledwyn the ability to cast quickened true strike even once per day. I can sort of see your point on the stat boosts, but they might be borderline as others have said they'd be all over those.
But a 4th-level SLA that works with almost any character is a pretty sweet treat.
A free level? Come on, surely someone like that one, right?
Or removing a rule: no longer restricted (with this one PC) to buy magic consumables at minimum caster level. How sweet would that be?
EDIT: Ninja'd.
Adding a 4th level SLA with no cost to the character, is too powerful to have as a boon. Sure, everyone would be all over it, because its ridiculously powerful for the cost, which is zero.
I certainly hope that going to a Con doesn't hyper-power characters that are already plowing through encounters like wet tissue paper.
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Adding an SLA to a character that they essentially didn't have to pay for is too powerful.
Interestingly, in the other thread Mike was concerned it wouldn't be powerful enough.
The ability to purchase scrolls at higher caster level is a huge potential nightmare.
How so? Could you elaborate?
EDIT:
Adding a 4th level SLA with no cost to the character, is too powerful to have as a boon. Sure, everyone would be all over it, because its ridiculously powerful for the cost, which is zero.
I certainly hope that going to a Con doesn't hyper-power characters that are already plowing through encounters like wet tissue paper.
Well, I'm sure we could find some sort of SLA that would be enticing but not overpowered. Maybe you get to pick one 1st-level spell as a 1/day SLA, or something like that.
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I really liked the boon that Kyle Pratt had for his cleric. I think it was from PaizoCon 2009? He was going around trying to convert NPCs to his faith. Getting a boon like that at a convention would be sweet. Some how wording it so it could only be tried at "Paizo Supported" conventions would get me to at least go for a slot.
That said, I'm not sure exactly what he got for completing all of that, but maybe we could do something similar for the factions:
- Each faction has it's own set of X unique chronicles.
- The chronicle is two-fold: It requires the PC to do something in a scenario that aligns with the goals of their faction. It provides either its own small boon (+1 to a certain skill perhaps) and/or it provides a piece to a much larger boon that aligns with the faction growing in influence (perhaps a permanent PP or Fame boost). The larger boon is only gained after X-Y successful unique chronicles.
I like this idea for Faction boons. The boon was stand-alone but had spaces to record the names of each of the NPCs converted, so a Faction boon could leave a space for the recording of NPCs or events encountered that fit the Faction goal. The boon only granted a benefit once all ten entries were filled.
If it's alright by you, I will start drawing up some possibilities for this concept.
Go for it! I like the idea of doing (arbitrarily) 10 different physical chronicles for each faction. That way each convention only gets one and encourages people to go to more conventions (rather than getting the chronicle once and playing 10 times).
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Items that you couldn't otherwise purchase based on how much they cost, even assuming you manage to get your character to 16th level, aren't really a boon to get access to them.
Yea, I know that those are bad examples, they are just two items that are not available in PFS that I can think of off the top of my head.
Maybe allowing a combination item, such as a +WIS Headband/Phylactery of Positive Channeling, following the item creation rule of base item price + (1.5 x secondary ability price)
Or allowing an upgrade to a named item (+3 Oathbow, anyone?)
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Adding an SLA to a character that they essentially didn't have to pay for is too powerful.Interestingly, in the other thread Mike was concerned it wouldn't be powerful enough.
I think Mike was referring to the SLA not being a powerful enough DRAW to get people to come to a convention. There's no doubt some SLAs can be more powerful than the alternate races.
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Adding an SLA to a character that they essentially didn't have to pay for is too powerful.Interestingly, in the other thread Mike was concerned it wouldn't be powerful enough.
The ability to purchase scrolls at higher caster level is a huge potential nightmare.How so? Could you elaborate?
EDIT:
Well, I'm sure we could find some sort of SLA that would be enticing but not overpowered. Maybe you get to pick one 1st-level spell as a 1/day SLA, or something like that.Adding a 4th level SLA with no cost to the character, is too powerful to have as a boon. Sure, everyone would be all over it, because its ridiculously powerful for the cost, which is zero.
I certainly hope that going to a Con doesn't hyper-power characters that are already plowing through encounters like wet tissue paper.
The problem with even a 1/day 1st level SLA, is that some races get some SLA's, but you gotta carry the baggage of that race.
If its an ambiguous SLA, then my pyromaniac gnome could pick burning hands and be even nastier with his 4 other SLAs he gets for being a gnome.
You are adding an unaccounted for power to a character, that they didn't already have.
The boons you had access to at Gen Con 2011, and then again at Con of the North, were essentially Trait level in power. Perhaps minor feat, like Exotic Weapon Proficiency.
The scroll thing would be a nightmare, because lets say you pull out your scroll of quickened true strike, and a GM is like, no, that's a scroll, it can't be quickened, and it can't be of 5th caster level, and you go, but wait, I have this boon I got at Gen Con 2012 (pause game for 5 minutes while find boon, GM reads it)...
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The thing is, these have to be equal or more desirable than a racial boon. The free vanity boon has already been done, the skill boosts have already been done.Well, what would your feedback be on some of my ideas?
• Permanent +1 to CON
• Permanent +1 to physical stat of choice
• Permanent +1 to mental stat of choice
• Permanent +1 to stat of choice
• X/day quickened true strike SLA
• Give a brand new PC a free jump to 2nd level (3XP, 4PP/Fame, 1,100-ish gp)These all mimic races in their permanence and power (or I think so), and are unique without feeling like everyone else is restricted. What are your thoughts?
Jiggy, we don't see eye to eye on a lot of things on these boards, but I think you have been the closest to what would be a good draw with this list. Everyone sees the odd numbered stat boosts you get up to level 12 and your ideas fill that gap. I think you can go further. What about a +3 to a stat? What about adding a template to your character? Something happens when you got too drunk last night and now your character has darkvision. Or you can start with a half-fiend or half-dragon.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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@Todd,
You know the first rule of brain storming? You provide ideas. You don't start critiquing them until later.
It's clear you're happy with the present system. Bully for you. Several people aren't, and we're trying to constructively provide alternatives. IF you're not going to contribute, I am going to politely ask you to go back to reading the core rule book, since you've already demonstrated in the previous thread a lack of understanding of the rules of the game you GM.
Hint, start with the races chapter.
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@Todd,
You know the first rule of brain storming? You provide ideas. You don't start critiquing them until later.
It's clear you're happy with the present system. Bully for you. Several people aren't, and we're trying to constructively provide alternatives. IF you're not going to contribute, I am going to politely ask you to go back to reading the core rule book, since you've already demonstrated in the previous thread a lack of understanding of the rules of the game you GM.
Hint, start with the races chapter.
Actually I am providing feedback. The level of ideas needs to be up to a certain level. I'm not going to suggest a boon be you get a free set of clothing as a replacement. My critiques are meant to inspire and to go further. So do it. Go further than what you have suggested. You were in RPG Superstar for Gozreh's sake. I know you can do better than I can.
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@Todd,
You know the first rule of brain storming? You provide ideas. You don't start critiquing them until later.
It's clear you're happy with the present system. Bully for you. Several people aren't, and we're trying to constructively provide alternatives. IF you're not going to contribute, I am going to politely ask you to go back to reading the core rule book, since you've already demonstrated in the previous thread a lack of understanding of the rules of the game you GM.
Hint, start with the races chapter.
Two things.
1) That was out of line (the rules comment thing), as it was mean-spirited.
2) Part of brainstorming IS critiquing ideas. You throw out ideas, you get reasons why they aren't good, and get more ideas. If there isn't critique during brainstorming, all you are left with is a mountain of ideas and no analysis or anything concrete on how to organize them into good, bad, indifferent piles.
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Something happens when you got too drunk last night and now your character has darkvision.
Templates and half-whatever stuff is essentially race boons in a new paint job, but I like this idea. It has uniqueness, it has power, it has permanence, but it's not likely to contribute to combat overpoweredness like Andy was concerned about. Boons that grant permanent, useful utility abilities to PCs could be great:
• Darkvision 60ft (or increase existing darkvision by 30ft)• Bonus feat (but can't be a combat feat, maybe?)
• X/day SLAs of comprehend languages or other utility spells
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Or you can start with a half-fiend or half-dragon.I'd say a boon to take the template instead of a level when you would otherwise level up an existing character.
That might be an idea. IT also encourages play because you have to earn those three XP. My only concern? Paizo as a whole isn't a fan of half dragons.
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Something happens when you got too drunk last night and now your character has darkvision.Templates and half-whatever stuff is essentially race boons in a new paint job, but I like this idea. It has uniqueness, it has power, it has permanence, but it's not likely to contribute to combat overpoweredness like Andy was concerned about. Boons that grant permanent, useful utility abilities to PCs could be great:
• Darkvision 60ft (or increase existing darkvision by 30ft)
• Bonus feat (but can't be a combat feat, maybe?)
• X/day SLAs of comprehend languages or other utility spells
For the bonus feat, I like the idea of granting feats that rarely get taken, like Athletic or Cosmopolitan.
I'm not a fan of granting an SLA.
A cool idea might be for a boon that say only 10 people ever will get (drawing at Gen Con?) like the ability to work with Mike Brock and Mark Moreland to craft a custom magic item (or race?--no, stop throwing things at me!) or whatever.
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That might be an idea. IT also encourages play because you have to earn those three XP. My only concern? Paizo as a whole isn't a fan of half dragons.Or you can start with a half-fiend or half-dragon.I'd say a boon to take the template instead of a level when you would otherwise level up an existing character.
Half-Celestial is probably a better example, since there is also a way to become a dragon through the Dragon Disciple PrC. I would kill for a Half-Celestial boon for Gustav.
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That might be an idea. IT also encourages play because you have to earn those three XP. My only concern? Paizo as a whole isn't a fan of half dragons.Or you can start with a half-fiend or half-dragon.I'd say a boon to take the template instead of a level when you would otherwise level up an existing character.
Let them shoot us down when we go too far. I just want to push the envelope further than what the first suggestions were coming out as.
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A cool idea might be for a boon that say only 10 people ever will get (drawing at Gen Con?) like the ability to work with Mike Brock and Mark Moreland to craft a custom magic item (or race?--no, stop throwing things at me!) or whatever.
Completely custom item would be cool. Maybe access to a custom spell. A spell you could even pass around and spread the love (and your creativity).