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Ok, first off, I know that AC isn't the be all end all of defense. Especially at higher levels, it's spells not attacks that are hugely damaging. However, I have this fighter/duelist/monk build that get's me a insane AC for 20th level. Now I also have the best possible gear to max this out, so it isn't realistic, but I did think it was funny. Ok now that I've acknowledged that this isn't the most effective build, or even a realistic expectation by level 20, here it is.
25 pt buy (18 dex, 14 int, 14 wis) lvl3 monk (Master of many styles, Monk of the Sacred Mountain), lvl 7 fighter (free-hand fighter), lvl 10 duelist. Halfling.
+10 base
+13 Dex (18 base, belt, lvl increases, wish spell)
+7 Intelligence (14 base, headband, wish spell)- duelist abliity
+7 wisdom (14 base, headband, wish spell)-
+2 monk robes
+4 fighting defensively (crane style feat, plus acrobat bonus)
+2 dodge (fighter, free-hand fighter)
+1 dodge (feat)
+3 dodge (duelist)
+6 combat expertise
+5 defending rapier (agile)
+8 bracers of armor
+5 natural armor amulet
+1 natural armor (monk)
+5 ring of protection
+1 size
80 AC
Again, that's an 80 AC without any shield or piece of platemail. This also means my Touch AC is also pretty untouchable.
thoughts? mistakes on my part?
Edit: Alexander has pointed out that I could also permanently reduce myself, take the underfoot racial trait, and add +2 dex via wand of alter self, to an actual total of 83.
no idea, I was curious what my AC for my build would be if I got the best possible stuff for level 20. Tell you what I'll drop up the numbers in a couple of minutes.
Looks about $301,090, or about 34% of the WBL. Only 10% over the "balanced" approach!
ok I'm looking at having spent roughly 600,000 gold on this (the most expensive part being having to cast 13 wish spells). Still the WBL of a lvl 20 character is 800,000
The monk robes just add +5 levels to my monk class's AC bonus. A level 8 monk has an inherent AC bonus of +2 in addition to his wisdom bonus, so that should stack.
Oh, 13 castings of Wish? I also forgot the material component of wish, so my numbers are off.
If you consider the Underfoot Halfling racial trait, its effectively 1 higher against anything that isn't small.
Getting yourself permanently reduce person'ed is worth a little more, and a wand of alter self for a +2 dexterity is easily UMD'able at that level.
Lol, to me that just screams awesome.
I'd be tiny with an 83 AC against any non-tiny person.
At that point I might as well have my guy turned into a mouse and become
Reepicheep from Narnia.
Note that to get the fighting defensively bonus, you have to attack (take an attack or full attack action).
I am pretty sure the same is true of the defending weapon.
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And then the swarms show up! ;)
ok I'm looking at having spent roughly 600,000 gold on this (the most expensive part being having to cast 13 wish spells). Still the WBL of a lvl 20 character is 800,000
You can get wish spells for free if you have a wizard in your party using planar binding.
Aratrok, I doubt any Wish coming from an extraplanar creature is going to be free.
Aratrok, I doubt any Wish coming from an extraplanar creature is going to be free.
Lol, well it'd be free for me maybe, my wizard buddy on the otherhand who had to contract out the deal.... ;)
Aratrok, I doubt any Wish coming from an extraplanar creature is going to be free.
Just summon an efreeti. They can grant wishes once a day and only to non-genies, so the power isn't very valuable to them.
Aratrok, I doubt any Wish coming from an extraplanar creature is going to be free.Just summon an efreeti. They can grant wishes once a day and only to non-genies, so the power isn't very valuable to them.
Yes, but they're valuable to you and you're imposing on his time. Expect to pay through the nose.
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Congratulations on proving something that the bulk of us knew all along.... that any D20 game can be broken if the intent to do so is there.
wow... seems overly hostile for no apparent reason.
Also, this is a character I intended on making. It started out as making a duelist who was decent and I've slowly been adding stuff to him (such as levels of monk, and fighter archetypes). The only silly thing about it is, that I realized that my AC would eventually compete quite competently with a fighters AC. This was just carrying out the build to it's maximized potential. I'm not sure whats wrong with that.
To add to the craziness...
Take this:
Osyluth Guile [Combat]
You are skilled at misdirecting an opponent’s attacks.
Prerequisites: Bluff 8 ranks, Dodge.
Benefit: While you are fighting defensively or using the total defense action, select one opponent. Add your Charisma bonus to your AC as a dodge bonus against that opponent’s melee attacks until your next turn. You cannot use this feat if you cannot see the selected opponent.
To add to the craziness...
Take this:Osyluth Guile [Combat]
You are skilled at misdirecting an opponent’s attacks.
Prerequisites: Bluff 8 ranks, Dodge.
Benefit: While you are fighting defensively or using the total defense action, select one opponent. Add your Charisma bonus to your AC as a dodge bonus against that opponent’s melee attacks until your next turn. You cannot use this feat if you cannot see the selected opponent.
lol, I love it. So my current build had my charisma at 12 (10 base +2 for halfling), but if I added wish and the +6 headband to it, I could get to around a +6 charisma bonus. If I nerfed my con to 7 (which I would never normally do), that'd push it to a +7
That pushes the AC to 90.
Wow. What a waste. Nothing published can hit an AC of 60 or so without rolling a natural 20.
That's 20 points of AC you don't need. That is what I call EXTREMELY poor resource allocation. Take all the things you used for those last 20 points and put those resources into things like higher saves, skills, hit points, and attacks.
as a gm i would make a monster that could hit you and considering the amount of str required to do so it would likely one shot you when it hits.
Never go into an arms race with your gm you will loose
You would punish someone for investing far, far more than he needs to in a single aspect of his character and likely gimping himself in the process? Harsh.
Harsh AND unnecessary. Also the hallmark of an incompetent GM. There are plenty of better ways of challenging such a character. Think about how many inferior villains continually manage to challenge Superman or the Hulk despite their great strength and invulnerability. Don't fall into the escalation battles. That will quickly make your games as boring as Dragon Ball Z.
You would punish someone for investing far, far more than he needs to in a single aspect of his character and likely gimping himself in the process? Harsh.
I as a gm do not like to run game were i know that my monsters are pointless.
Yes, some monsters could cast fireball or what ever but building characters with 80-90 ac breaks the game and fun for all around the tableIf my players tried to break the game like this yes i would punish them.
You would punish someone for investing far, far more than he needs to in a single aspect of his character and likely gimping himself in the process? Harsh.Harsh AND unnecessary. Also the hallmark of an incompetent GM. There are plenty of better ways of challenging such a character. Think about how many inferior villains continually manage to challenge Superman or the Hulk despite their great strength and invulnerability.
I would probably run out kryptonite ideas after a few sessions
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How about talking to them rather than punishing them?
Punishing someone FOR PLAYING A GAME doesn't make a lick of sense to me. That's a quick way to lose the respect of your players. Nobody shows up to be punished, they show up to have fun. You should be promoting THAT.
If someone is knowingly or unknowingly interfering with others' fun, open up a dialogue. You are all adults, are you not?
I would probably run out kryptonite ideas after a few sessionsYou would punish someone for investing far, far more than he needs to in a single aspect of his character and likely gimping himself in the process? Harsh.Harsh AND unnecessary. Also the hallmark of an incompetent GM. There are plenty of better ways of challenging such a character. Think about how many inferior villains continually manage to challenge Superman or the Hulk despite their great strength and invulnerability.
I was thinking more along the lines of creative predicaments such as a time-based adventure (such as warning the nearby city of the impending invasion prior to the invasion force's arrival), or an adventure that is less about beating the enemies senseless and more about rescuing the kidnapped children they took.
These types of scenarios may involve combat, but it is still possible to "lose" the objective even with one or more combat wins. Invulnerability does little good if the enemy sentries still manage to slow you down with ambushes, tricks, and traps; granting their armies enough time to beat you to the city.
If the enemy can't hit the PC's AC, so what? That does him little good when he has to later face the King and tell him why the harem's kidnapped children all perished. Remember, his defenses protect HIM, not others. Make your villains truly evil. Use hostages. KILL THEM if need be. There are so many ways to attack the PCs (physical and non-physical) that its any wonder that anyone feels the need to resort to an arms race at all. That path is so incredibly limiting and potentially damaging.
i dont think anyone in my group of gamers would ever pull a stunt like this :)
Well at least not since 3.0
Me and my players have been playing together for 15 years so i guess we have grown well older hehe
I would probably run out kryptonite ideas after a few sessionsYou would punish someone for investing far, far more than he needs to in a single aspect of his character and likely gimping himself in the process? Harsh.Harsh AND unnecessary. Also the hallmark of an incompetent GM. There are plenty of better ways of challenging such a character. Think about how many inferior villains continually manage to challenge Superman or the Hulk despite their great strength and invulnerability.I was thinking more along the lines of creative predicaments such as a time-based adventure (such as warning the nearby city of the impending invasion prior to the invasion force's arrival), or an adventure that is less about beating the enemies senseless and more about rescuing the kidnapped children they took.
These types of scenarios may involve combat, but it is still possible to "lose" the objective even with a combat win. Invulnerability does little good if the enemy sentries still manage to slow you down with ambushes, tricks, and traps; granting them enough time to beat you to the city.
If the enemy can't hit the PCs AC, so what? That does him little good when he has to face the King and tell him why the harem's kidnapped children all perished.
Yes that would work for a few sessions but eventually more combat focused adventures would return, mostly because my players tends to be highly combat focused players and closer to CE characters then LG characters.
Is there anything wrong with letting your players' heroes shine in said combats? If they've really built their character up to that over a lengthy adventuring career, than I think they've more than earned it.
Even evil characters have NPCs and interests that they would like to see protected. Heck, instead of racing to warn a city about an invading army, they could be racing to a powerful artifact--an artifact that is soon to fall into the hands of a goodly crew determined to use it to put a stop to the evil PCs' nefarious ways.
Wow. What a waste. Nothing published can hit an AC of 60 or so without rolling a natural 20.
That's 20 points of AC you don't need. That is what I call EXTREMELY poor resource allocation. Take all the things you used for those last 20 points and put those resources into things like higher saves, skills, hit points, and attacks.
very very true. With the AC I currently had I could drop using combat expertise (no need to take a -6 to hit).
Actually the nice thing about how this build works out, is that I can reach such a high AC so quickly, I can really focus on shoring up the weaknesses he would also have.
This thread was more to focus on the ridiculousness of a 80 (90 when all was said and done)AC for a character who is wearing no armor whatsoever.
Technically, you are wearing armor - the bracers to be specific. Beware the monk's bane: flat-footed AC is much lower.
Stupifyingly high bonuses are going to create another unpleasant situation: the one-swing-miss-swing-at-everyone-else situation. Obviously we're not talking about stupid and unintelligent foes. One or two swings at best attack bonus that miss by a mile is an excellent method of maybe slowing the big bad down for a round before they ignore the defensive melee that can't hit back very well and massacre the rest of the group.
I recommend the bodyguard feats to go with Crane style's feat tree if you want the obscene AC build to actually contribute in combat beyond buying that one round. Of course, in many cases this one round may be all that you need...
How about talking to them rather than punishing them?
Punishing someone FOR PLAYING A GAME doesn't make a lick of sense to me. That's a quick way to lose the respect of your players. Nobody shows up to be punished, they show up to have fun. You should be promoting THAT.
If someone is knowingly or unknowingly interfering with others' fun, open up a dialogue. You are all adults, are you not?
Considering some of the stuff I saw you post in the past, that seems a bit hypocritical. But maybe you did sit down with your players.
Swarms could be this guy's bane people, and it's easy to make them at least resistant to the normal means of dealing with them.
yeah, swarms would put a damper in my day. :), as would magic, or a anything really that didn't rely on having to hit my AC.
Oh that and surprising me. You catch me flat-footed, this character would be very unhappy.
:)
At level 20 there are so so so so many things that do not target AC, that this character really does not have that much of a higher survivability than the rest.
I dunno, how is your CMD in that build? Otherwise just someone grappling you might ruin your day.
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So what does the AC bonus drop to if you are shaken/touch attacked/shattered defense. I am just curious. (ie. what is your touch AC to start with, and what happens when you lose the 13 dex bonus from it). Only asking because I was making a character based on the Intimidate/touch/shatter defenses set (and at level 12 he only needs to over-ride a balor's SR, the ACs aren't an issue). Yes, BTW, this is a nice POWERGAMING character. AC 90. lol. too funny! Being Monk and high dex probably means your CMD is pretty high also.
Wow. What a waste. Nothing published can hit an AC of 60 or so without rolling a natural 20.
That's 20 points of AC you don't need. That is what I call EXTREMELY poor resource allocation. Take all the things you used for those last 20 points and put those resources into things like higher saves, skills, hit points, and attacks.
A buffed dragon can hit a 60 IIRC.
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as a gm i would make a monster that could hit you and considering the amount of str required to do so it would likely one shot you when it hits.
Never go into an arms race with your gm you will loose
I could challenge his character. :)
Instead of getting mad because you can't handle the character why not ask him to tune it down.
A buffed dragon can hit a 60 IIRC.
Which one? Looking at the ancient red and gold dragons (considered by many to be the most powerful) they get up to about 55 to hit with a natural 20, and don't seem to have bull's strength or anything of that nature on their default spell list to increase it.
If you're implying that you can modify their spell list to make it possible to hit AC 60, that's fine, but my statement still stands (as I said no "published" creature, as opposed to a modified one).
As written, using their spells, a Solar can get to +41 on attacks, or 60 on a roll of 19 (20s are an auto-hit, so they aren't useful for calculating attack bonus needed). +2 from bull's strength, +3 from divine favor and +1 from aid. It's higher if it uses its invisibility.
Still not hitting 80 without a natural 20, but getting closer. I'll keep looking through the outsiders in case there are others with better.
With such characters, expecting to fight "stock" monsters is like bringing a knife to a gunfight.
In the handful of high level games I've been in, it's almost always been stock.
I take it that's not the norm?
In the handful of high level games I've been in, it's almost always been stock.
I take it that's not the norm?
I'm running a high level now. I modify every encounter. The other GM who I am working with runs pretty much everything stock. We tend to plow through his encounters.