Yes it does as it is an attack roll.
However, how does he have greater trip? it needs BAB +6 to take
He cannot trip with a glaive at all if it does not have the trip property
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He cannot trip with a glaive at all if it does not have the trip property
This is one of those situations where, despite the text being the same, things have changed from 3.5 -> Pathfinder. According to this FAQ, you get to apply your weapon bonuses to trip with anything, and the fact that the trip special ability says "you may trip with this weapon" is "redundant." It is a redundancy that seems to still be in the book, but one that we have been officially informed to ignore.
yea, kind of dumb, but that is the official word on it.
Hrm, not sure how i feel about that, but seems you are correct.
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Yes, Paizo flip-flopped on the decision for this one.
In 3.5 it was clear that a Trip was an unarmed melee attack and that only weapons that said they could be used to trip (i.e. those that in Pathfinder now have the Trip property) could be used in the attempt.
Pathfinder RPG removed the clause that a Trip was an unarmed attack and thus the ambiguity came in as the Trip property stated "You can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks." from which it could be inferred that you couldn't make Trip attacks with weapons without this property - and indeed that was how Paizo originally ruled in their FAQ.
But then a blog on combat manoeuvres came along that contradicted that and thus the FAQ has now been updated to say that any weapon can be used to Trip.
Unfortunately many people have pointed out that the Trip property has become pretty much useless because of this ruling - the only thing it does is allow you to drop your weapon if you fail your trip attack by 10 or more (which if your build is set up to trip is unlikely to happen).
Even worse Pathfinder also dropped the rule from 3.5 that stated that if you trip with a weapon (i.e. one that in PF would now have the trip property) you avoided the AoO. If PF had at least included this in the Trip property then it would have made trip weapons more desirable for those characters who wanted to reduce the risk of trying to trip but didn't want to invest a Feat in Improved Trip to do so.
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Alright ... Now I'm royally confused.
The above linked FAQ seems to say that enhancement bonuses apply when making a trip, but the blog on the topic seems to read that they only apply if the weapon has the "trip" quality.
Am I reading this wrong? I've been going by the Paizo Blog, since it's called out in the Additional Resources ... But then, so is the FAQ. What's a trip-monkey to do?
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Alright ... Now I'm royally confused.
The above linked FAQ seems to say that enhancement bonuses apply when making a trip, but the blog on the topic seems to read that they only apply if the weapon has the "trip" quality.Am I reading this wrong? I've been going by the Paizo Blog, since it's called out in the Additional Resources ... But then, so is the FAQ. What's a trip-monkey to do?
You're mis-reading the blog. It says that Trips use the weapon by default, whether they have the Trip quality or not. Ironically, this means that using a trip weapon doesn't actually make you any better at tripping than using any other weapon.
However, the trip quality *does* let you use your weapon for Drags and Repositions, which are normally weaponless.
The trip property also allows a reposition manoeuvre with a weaponAnd Drag, as well.
Where is this stated? I can't seem to find it in the FAQ or in the APG.
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Where is this stated? I can't seem to find it in the FAQ or in the APG.The trip property also allows a reposition manoeuvre with a weaponAnd Drag, as well.
The aforementioned blog:
There is a special exception to the above rules. If you’re using a weapon with the trip special feature, and you’re attempting a drag or reposition combat maneuver (Advanced Player’s Guide 321–322), you may apply the weapon’s bonuses to the roll because trip weapons are also suitable for dragging and repositioning (this also means we don’t have to add “drag” and “reposition” weapon properties to existing weapons).
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Okay ... i think that I have got it now ... So the key passage indicates that for some manuevers it does, and others, it doesn't?
Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon ... to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses... apply to the roll.
For other maneuvers, either you’re not using a weapon at all, or the weapon is incidental to making the maneuver, and its bonuses shouldn’t make you better at attempting the maneuver.
So, the culmination of it all is that Improved Trip lets me drop the weapon, and gives me a +2. Otherwise, any weapon can be used to make a trip (with enhancement bonuses) in the same way. Am I getting this right? I guess that's why many people griped when it changed. There's not a whole heck of a lot of point to it, unless one really wants the +2.
Oh, and thanks Jiggy for the help here ... I have two trip-fighters, and it's driving me mad trying to know this ruling.
However, the trip quality *does* let you use your weapon for Drags and Repositions, which are normally weaponless.
And why my PFS paladin loves his flail.
Where is this stated? I can't seem to find it in the FAQ or in the APG.The trip property also allows a reposition manoeuvre with a weaponAnd Drag, as well.The aforementioned blog:
There is a special exception to the above rules. If you’re using a weapon with the trip special feature, and you’re attempting a drag or reposition combat maneuver (Advanced Player’s Guide 321–322), you may apply the weapon’s bonuses to the roll because trip weapons are also suitable for dragging and repositioning (this also means we don’t have to add “drag” and “reposition” weapon properties to existing weapons).
Why does that even exist at all within the blog? It's not mentioned anywhere else and as such looks to be a house rule/developer opinion.
What prompted them to put such a thing there, but not in the FAQ or errata?
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What about Dirty Trick? Can I describe a dirty trick using a weapon and get the weapon's enhancement bonus? Or just use a combat roll instead of a CMB check? The reason I'm under that impression is from the Dueling weapon enhancement from the Field Guide.
Dueling-FGSource: Pathfinder Society Field Guide
Aura Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, cat’s grace; Price +1 bonus.
DESCRIPTION
This ability can only be placed on a melee weapon.
A dueling weapon bears magical enhancements that makes it particularly effective at performing certain combat maneuvers. When a dueling weapon is used to perform a combat maneuver that utilizes the weapon only (see below), it grants a luck bonus equal to twice its enhancement bonus on the CMB check made to carry out the maneuver. The dueling weapon also grants this same luck bonus to the wielder’s CMD score against these types of combat maneuvers. These combat maneuvers include disarm and trip maneuvers, but not bull rush, grapple, or overrun maneuvers. If you’re using the additional combat maneuvers in the Advanced Player’s Guide, this also includes any dirty trick maneuvers that utilize the weapon, as well as reposition combat maneuvers, but not drag or steal combat maneuvers. Note that this luck bonus stacks with the weapon’s enhancement bonus, which in and of itself adds to CMB checks normally.
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The aforementioned blog post came after that enchantment was written. Here are a couple of things to keep in mind:
First, as I said, the enchantment was written before the blog spelled things out. Thus, either the blog was a change or the writer of the enchantment wasn't familiar enough with CMB rules (which happens).
As a result, you get some interesting consequences: you could have a Dueling weapon that gets to apply its enhancement bonus to drags and repositions, but only gets to apply the Dueling bonus to repositions. Similarly, dirty tricks (per the blog) don't even use your weapon, so the GM has to make something up if you're using a Dueling weapon. They might say that they'll let the Dueling weapon be a special exception to the rule (allowing all its bonuses to apply), or maybe that you still don't get your normal weapon bonuses but do get to apply the Dueling bonus, or even just say that since employing your Dueling weapon is a requirement to get the bonus and you can't employ your weapon you never get the bonus.
If you're in a home game, I suggest you consult your GM for a possible houserule. If you're in a PFS game, I suggest you get the other Dueling enchantment (yes, the same name, but from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide) which has a much cleaner description.
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If you're in a PFS game, I suggest you get the other Dueling enchantment (yes, the same name, but from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide) which has a much cleaner description.
Wait ... isn't the one that he quoted from the Field Guide? Did you mean the other Dueling Enchantment that's from the Advanced Player's Guide?
But, also, I thought that if new rules on something came out, we were s'posed to go with whatever the Most Recent Printing is. I'd assumed that since the Field Guide came out in 2011, and the APG in 2010, we were s'posed to use the one from the Field Guide.
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If you're in a PFS game, I suggest you get the other Dueling enchantment (yes, the same name, but from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide) which has a much cleaner description.Wait ... isn't the one that he quoted from the Field Guide? Did you mean the other Dueling Enchantment that's from the Advanced Player's Guide?
But, also, I thought that if new rules on something came out, we were s'posed to go with whatever the Most Recent Printing is. I'd assumed that since the Field Guide came out in 2011, and the APG in 2010, we were s'posed to use the one from the Field Guide.
Oh crap, I got them switched in my mind. Major brain fart on my part. Sorry about that. O_O
As for the "later printings" issue, neither is an update of the other. They just happen to have the same name. Both exist (and theoretically, both could be on the same weapon).
Plus they apply their enhancement bonus to drag and reposition combat maneuvers, which most weapons do not. Reposition is an underappreciated maneuver.
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Plus they apply their enhancement bonus to drag and reposition combat maneuvers, which most weapons do not. Reposition is an underappreciated maneuver.
+1
In short:
Trip: All weapon enhancements and related feats apply their bonuses to trip maneuvers made with any weapon.
Trip weapons can be dropped instead of allowing the user to be tripped back if the trip roll is failed by a significant amount. In addition, trip weapons also allow the user to perform drag and reposition maneuvers, and provide the weapon enhancement and feat bonuses to those maneuvers, unlike other weapons which cannot be used to perform the drag and reporision maneuvers.
Drag: Someone backed themselves into a corner to prevent being flanked by your rogue? No problem, just drag them out of the corner with your flail.
Reposition: Again, allows moving them out of the corner to where they can be flanked, or remove them from a position where they provide one of their allies with a flank on you or one of your allies.
Really, while the ability to avoid being tripped is minor, the addition of drag and reposition turn the trip build with a trip weapon into even more of a small scale battlefield controller.
With iteratives and Greater Trip:
Reposition the target into a flanked position, where you have multiple allies threatening him, the trip him with your iterative, giving you and all your allies attacks of opportunity on the your hapless victim. Ugly, to a T.
I have a +5 dueling flail that is absolutely badass. It gets +15 to dirty trick, drag, reposition, trip and trip combat maneuvers (+17 with disarms)!
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Really, while the ability to avoid being tripped is minor, the addition of drag and reposition turn the trip build with a trip weapon into even more of a small scale battlefield controller.
...
But the reposition and drag maneuvers are made without weapons, right?
So it's just BAB + Str (+ feat bonus)?|
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Really, while the ability to avoid being tripped is minor, the addition of drag and reposition turn the trip build with a trip weapon into even more of a small scale battlefield controller.
...But the reposition and drag maneuvers are made without weapons, right?
So it's just BAB + Str (+ feat bonus)?
As per the aforementioned blog, those maneuvers are made without weapons unless you have a weapon with the Trip property. If you're using a flail, for instance, you can employ it in drag and reposition maneuvers and apply all relevant bonuses.
As per the aforementioned blog, those maneuvers are made without weapons unless you have a weapon with the Trip property. If you're using a flail, for instance, you can employ it in drag and reposition maneuvers and apply all relevant bonuses.
But where can I find that in the rules?
Or does that blog count as "rules"?
SKR outlining it in an official Paizo blog makes it a PFS rule.
EDIT: Ninja'd due to taking time for coffee intake.
Thanks!
Apologies if this has been asked before, I didn't see it anywhere....The Core Rulebook doesn't seem to address the issue, not does the FAQ (insofar as I looked at the d20PFSRD page on trip attempts).
In the section on combat maneuvers in the core rulebook it states that:
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver.
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So yes, the enhancement bonus from a weapon does indeed modify the attack roll used in the CM if the weapons is a part of the maneuver, as would say Weapon Focus, Weapon Training, and so forth.
What if you have the Dueling-FG enhancment on a +1 weapon. And cast greater magic weapon (+5) on the weapon - do you get +5 enhancment and +10 Luck on trip attempts or just +5 enhancment and +2 luck?
What if you have the Dueling-FG enhancment on a +1 weapon. And cast greater magic weapon (+5) on the weapon - do you get +5 enhancment and +10 Luck on trip attempts or just +5 enhancment and +2 luck?
It seems pretty clear to me that it is based on the weapon's enhancement bonus, regardless of where that enhancement bonus comes from.
