Cheapest darkvision option for a scout?


Advice


What is the cheapest darkvision option, magic item or spell wise, for a scout?

The problem with scouting is that the scout needs light to see (unless he's an elf and there's moonlight)...but light would make him stand out like a sore thumb.

So to get an effective scout, we probably need darkvision right? Whats the cheapest option for that?

Grand Lodge

Potions of darkvision (maybe a wand if you can use it?) until you can afford googles of night, unless I missed something somewhere.


Half-orc. Be a class that's actually suited to scouting, like the alchemist. They can silently get darkvision, go invisible, etc.


Question wrote:


So to get an effective scout, we probably need darkvision right? Whats the cheapest option for that?

The party wizard memorizing darkvision for one of their 2nd level slots.

-James

Dark Archive

Question wrote:


So to get an effective scout, we probably need darkvision right? Whats the cheapest option for that?

Can't beat the free cost of being a Half-Orc. :)

Grand Lodge

Duergar are the ultimate scouts.


I lean towards strix, personally. Duergar are slow, while strix fly twice as fast as most races move. Their Perception bonus is more than duergar get out of their Wis bonus, and while duergar invisibility is nice it's only 1/day. Their darkvision is shorter-range, but they have low-light vision as well, which is superior under some circumstances, so I'm not too bothered by it.

Grand Lodge

Sorry, Duergar Heretic Inquisitors make the best spies. Add the wisdom of the flesh trait, and these invisible 160ft darkvision sneaks will have double wisdom to stealth.

Liberty's Edge

Goblins make the best scouts.
+4 Dex
+8 stealth (size and racial)
30' movement

To the OP, probably a wand of darkvision that you give to the wizard before you head out. You'd have to run through two full wands before you paid as much as Goggles of the Night.


Synthesists make amazing scouts...
Built-in Darkvision, easy to get various movement modes, and you can get things like Scent, Skilled-Perception (racial +8, works good for Stealth too... or even Disable Device if you need a trap breaker) and other useful tools.

Grand Lodge

How could I forget goblins?

Grand Lodge

I like how the OP specified items and spells only and got a bunch of race recommendations. :)

Liberty's Edge

TriOmegaZero wrote:
I like how the OP specified items and spells only and got a bunch of race recommendations. :)

To be fair you can use a polymorph school spell. If you have UMD you can use permanency and dark vision to use the spells.


Well, to be fair, if we stuck to items and spells it is pretty much one item and one spell :P
Sure there might be some corner cases, but basically:

Spells: Darkvision.
Items: Goggles of Night.

Other than spell-trigger/completion items but then it is more of the same i.e. Potion of Darkvision.

Grand Lodge

Alter self is low level.


Joining the chorus of "Be a Half-Orc / Goblin / Strix / Fetchling (they're so awesome!) / etc..."

Seriously, the goggles are stupid expensive and the spell can be dispelled. Just be the right race.

Or if that's unpalatable, dip Shadowdancer for it, I guess. Of course, their darvision is oddly supernatural, not Ex. A fact that I most unpleasantly discovered trying to fly around an orc-held city at night stealthily while Wind Walking (shuts off your Su abilities).


Talk to your GM about goggles of the night having a different price because as it stands they cost way too much. Also another thing to consider is usually low light vision is good enough for anything you're doing.


Compare the price of goggles of night to potions of darkvision. You need to use dark vision a LOT to make the goggles worth it.

Can you multi class into something that gives you the spell?


If you have access to and are allowed to, the Magic Item Compendium from 3.5e has an item in it called Scout's Headband.

I don't have the book, but I remember the basics of how the item worked.

You get X amount of charges. You can "upgrade" your sight by spending a certain amount of charges. The higher the upgrade, the shorter the duration (I think it got up to true seeing for like 1 minute). Charges reset everyday.

It was pretty cheap. Only like 3-4k gold, easily accessible. It's not permanent, like the Goggles of Night.

My group always has to okay items from third party or 3.5e, and sometimes conversions are needed, but given that people here have already showed you that just carrying expendable stuff is plenty viable, a cheap source of darkvision isn't that broken imo.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
I like how the OP specified items and spells only and got a bunch of race recommendations. :)

Pfff, is worse when somebody says "help me with this rogue..." and a lot of people say "play vivisecsionist/ranger/ninja/inquisitor..."


Nicos wrote:
Pfff, is worse when somebody says "help me with this rogue..." and a lot of people say "play vivisecsionist/ranger/ninja/inquisitor..."

They're just trying to be helpful. You've got to start with the assumption that someone is playing a rogue because they don't realize how weak it is, rather than s/he trying to play one in spite knowing so. :p


One option that will save you some money is to design your own item with charges of darkvision per day instead of continuous darkvision. You save some money and you free up the goggle slot, but you're more susceptible to dispel magic, antimagic fields and the like.

2*3*2000 / (5/3) = 7228 GP for an item that gives you three charges of Darkvision at three hours each. Just enough to cover the adventuring day and you rely on regular lighting when you set up camp, rest etc.

Alternatively, with a bit of good will you can try this. Lvl 5 caster uses extended spell on the darkvision spell used by the item. The caster level goes up to 5, the spell level to 3. The formula looks like this:

3*5*2000 / (5/1) = 6000 GP, half the price of a normal goggle set. Your item gives you 10 hours of darkvision a day, but only has one charge.

Feel free to look over my math, I'm not too experienced in using the custom magic item ruleset yet.

If your DM doesn't go for any of this, see if you can get an item of continuous Alter Self! For the same price as the Darkvision goggles (which to me now seem hideously overpriced) you can pick up Darkvision, low-light vision, Scent, a swim speed, and one hell of a party trick. 

Finally, if all else fails, plead that Darkvision is thoroughly underpowered for being a level 2 spell and should be priced as lvl 1 for the purposes of crafting.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Question wrote:

What is the cheapest darkvision option, magic item or spell wise, for a scout?

The problem with scouting is that the scout needs light to see (unless he's an elf and there's moonlight)...but light would make him stand out like a sore thumb.

So to get an effective scout, we probably need darkvision right? Whats the cheapest option for that?

Depends on where you are scouting. If it's outdoors at night, low-light is generally superior to darkvision.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
I like how the OP specified items and spells only and got a bunch of race recommendations. :)

He did ask for cheapest. Those choices mean no gold or feat or class etc... expenditure.

Sczarni

Um... Scroll: Dark Vision - 150 gp. Scroll: Permanency - 1125 gp... for 1275 GP you now can see in the dark.

(Dwarf?) Anyway, unless I missed something you don't need to sprinkle the 5,000 GP dust when using a scroll... UMD Roll needed - 23 and 29.

Rogue, lvl 1, 1 rank, 18/20 cha (I know, who puts in a high charisma? Rogues who plan on using UMD) - UMD is at 8/9. Plus Magic Aptitude Feat = 10/11. So it CAN be done at first level even (not that you will have 1275 gp at first level).

(ps. you might want to spend 2500 or something and get a metamagic scroll of darkvision which increases the range... just a suggestion (I don't know if scrolls can have metamagic featsm but maybe you know a guy who can hook this up with the cast and then read the scroll for the permanency))


Interzone wrote:

Synthesists make amazing scouts...

Built-in Darkvision, easy to get various movement modes, and you can get things like Scent, Skilled-Perception (racial +8, works good for Stealth too... or even Disable Device if you need a trap breaker) and other useful tools.

[derail] the synthesist can take the 'skilled' evolution? I thought that was specifically forbidden [/derail]


Not only can they take it, in PF racial bonuses stack, so having Skilled (Perception) for +8 racial bonus to perception stacks with Half-Elf's (the ideal race for a summoner) racial +2. And said half-elf synth. then ends up w/ +10 racial to perception and low-light and darkvision.


maouse wrote:

Um... Scroll: Dark Vision - 150 gp. Scroll: Permanency - 1125 gp... for 1275 GP you now can see in the dark.

(Dwarf?) Anyway, unless I missed something you don't need to sprinkle the 5,000 GP dust when using a scroll... UMD Roll needed - 23 and 29.

You did.

The scroll would need to include the price of the material components.

-James

Sczarni

james maissen wrote:
maouse wrote:

Um... Scroll: Dark Vision - 150 gp. Scroll: Permanency - 1125 gp... for 1275 GP you now can see in the dark.

(Dwarf?) Anyway, unless I missed something you don't need to sprinkle the 5,000 GP dust when using a scroll... UMD Roll needed - 23 and 29.

You did.

The scroll would need to include the price of the material components.

-James

Well, it brings up a question: if you only used 2500 gp of dust does it fail to permanency the other spells ie. if you found a scroll can you use it to do anything it can do up to the 22,500gp one in the description? That's an aweful nice GM who has a 20,000 gp leeway...


The cheapest way is to pick a race with Darkvision but that doesn't always fit the concept though.

Another is Impoved Eldrich Heritage with the Shadow bloodline but it cost 3 feats and you need a 15 Charisma. So you'd need Skill Focus stealth, you can take the Umbral wild blood line to get + 1/2 sorcerer level to stealth for 1 round per 2 sorcerer levels. Then at at 9th level you get Dark Vision 60' feat for feat.

Next is multiclass. There are few prestige classes that give you darkvision. Shadow Dancer and Horizon Walker both do. Shadow Dancer at 2nd level so you can get it by 7th. Horizon Walker at 3rd level with Underground Dominance so you get it at 9th. There might be more. Horizon Walk is pretty go for scout, assuming you mean the Rogue Archetype Scout. You can use rogue talent to get Favored Terrians and you can get Dominance in terrian getting a FE enemy attack bonus equal to you favored terrian bonus. That's pretty nice coupled with sneak attack.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
maouse wrote:
james maissen wrote:
maouse wrote:

Um... Scroll: Dark Vision - 150 gp. Scroll: Permanency - 1125 gp... for 1275 GP you now can see in the dark.

(Dwarf?) Anyway, unless I missed something you don't need to sprinkle the 5,000 GP dust when using a scroll... UMD Roll needed - 23 and 29.

You did.

The scroll would need to include the price of the material components.

-James

Well, it brings up a question: if you only used 2500 gp of dust does it fail to permanency the other spells ie. if you found a scroll can you use it to do anything it can do up to the 22,500gp one in the description? That's an aweful nice GM who has a 20,000 gp leeway...

I generally don't allow permanency on scrolls. Otherwise the permanency scroll spell has to specifically put in what particular spell it's designed for. Costs are then figured appropriately.


LazarX wrote:
Question wrote:

What is the cheapest darkvision option, magic item or spell wise, for a scout?

The problem with scouting is that the scout needs light to see (unless he's an elf and there's moonlight)...but light would make him stand out like a sore thumb.

So to get an effective scout, we probably need darkvision right? Whats the cheapest option for that?

Depends on where you are scouting. If it's outdoors at night, low-light is generally superior to darkvision.

Honestly curious to know when LLV is better than darkvision. Is it just the color thing?


I think it's the fact that MOST nights, there will be stars and/or moonlight to give dim lighting outside coupled with the fact that 2x dim lighting sight range is potentially greater than 60 ft darkvision range.

I don't think it's that reliable nor much more beneficial even when true, so I'd just get the darkvision and be set all the time.


Longer range, color, etc.

On a moonlit night (so most of them, barring cloud cover), you can see as clear as you can in day.

The Exchange

Potions of Darkvision are only 300 each for 3 hours at a time, if you have UMD a wand works out to 90gp per charge, also at 3 hours per use. Although, if you don't think you'll need more than... 15 potions and/or don't have UMD, then I would suggest the potions. If there's a wizard in the party, get the wand. Or, if they don't mind dedicating a 2nd level spell slot to you, offer to buy/go half on a 2nd level pearl of power so he can get a second level spell back 1/day.


"Hey Wizard, I'll pay half for a 2nd level pearl of power so you can reserve a spell slot for me. It's quite the honor to have to pay for half of this item which will only benefit me."

"Screw you, you pay for all of it."


Ideally, the party caster would be willing to devote some low level spells to help other party members do their jobs better.

Of course, ideally the bloody scout PC would pick a race with darkvision so he could actually do his job to begin with.

:p


Since the cost of what is already a relatively inexpensive item in the grand scheme of things is an issue I think we can assume that the character is in a low-level party. As such, it's not a given that the wizard (if there even is a wizard) has access to second level spells. For that matter, asking the sorcerer to take Darkvision as his first 2nd level spell when he dinged to 4 is harsh.

Still mindblown that an item that gives continuous use of Darkvision costs as much as one that gives at-will Alter Self with no duration limitation.


It's D&D 3.5's fault. A lot of items like goggles of night, slippers of spider climbing, glove of storing*, and so forth has their prices inexplicably increase from 3.0 to 3.5, in many cases by 2x, 3x, or even more the original 3.0 cost. It's crazy. Of course, 3.5 redeemed itself late-gen with the Magic Item Compendium, where they did a double-take like, "Wait, those prices are stupid. Here's a whole bunch of new items much better price-balanced for what they do."

Sadly PF stuck to 3.5 core in the conversion, rather than adapting to the realities as the MIC did in the end of 3E's life cycle.

*For a real laugh, check out the glove of the master strategist in the Ghostwalk book. It's basically identical to glove of storing except it also lets you cast True Strike 1/day. Price: 3500 gp, iirc. Yeah.
It was a 3.0 book, got an update file to convert to 3.5, and they missed the HUGE price differential (thankfully). Provides a very immediate and striking example of just how ludicrous the price-jumping was.

Grand Lodge

A intelligent dull gray ioun stone that can cast darkness once per day is 3425gp.


Ok, found some fan-made online SRD for 3.0 (you can also easily find the documents for download online, too). Here are some samples of 3.0 prices:

Spoiler:
Glove of Storing
On command, one item held in the hand wearing the glove disappears. The item can weigh no more than 20 pounds and must be able to be held in one hand. While stored the item has negligible weight. With a snap of the fingers wearing the glove, the item reappears. A glove can only store one item at a time. Storing or retrieving an item is a free action. The item is held in stasis and shrunk down so small within the palm of the glove that it cannot be seen. If the effect is suppressed or dispelled, the stored item appears instantly. The creation process yields only one glove.

Caster Level: 6th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, shrink item; Market Price: 2,200 gp; Weight: -.

Goggles of Night
The lenses of this item are made of dark crystal. Even though the lenses are opaque, when placed over the eyes of the wearer they enable the wearer to see normally and also grant him or her darkvision (range 60 feet). Both lenses must be worn for the magic to be effective.

Caster Level: 3rd; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, darkvision; Market Price: 8,000 gp; Weight: -.

Slippers of Spider Climbing
When worn, a pair of these slippers enable movement on vertical surfaces or even upside down along ceilings, leaving the wearer’s hands free. The wearer’s speed is 15 feet. Extremely slippery surfaces-icy, oiled, or greased surfaces-make these slippers useless.

Caster Level: 4th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, spider climb; Market Price: 2,000 gp; Weight: 1/2 lb.

(note also besides the massive price drop, they were usable 24/7 back then!)


Wow, that's some depressing reading. I was leafing through the Wondrous Items listing the other day and I kept thinking: "That's kind of neat. But if I give it to my characters they'll say "that's kind of neat", then immediately pawn it off and spend the ridiculously high sell price on something that's constantly useful instead of very situationally useful."

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/ring- gates

Ring Gates strikes me as a good example for an item that's mechanically interesting but nowhere near worth the 40 000 gold it'll cost in the average magic mart.

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