I tried posting this once before but the Internet monster ate it.
Right now I'm playing a master summoner. However, my DM has been sending creatures past the big nasty fighter to get to me (lowest AC in the group), so I don't think my character is long for the world. The problem is that I'm the only person in the party that wants / is willing to play an arcane caster. If we didn't need one, I'd go for a cavalier / Hellknight build. As it is, I'm going to build a Magus as a backup character, so I have a couple of questions.
After a fight with a troll I started thinking about using a polearm while enlarged. Is it possible to use a polearm with one hand somehow? If not, can a polearm-using Magus still be a viable build? Is a strength based Magus viable or do you have to make a Dex-based Magus with weapon finesse to be effective?
Also, I like the idea of a firearm myrmidarch, but does it give up too much in feats and spells to be good?
Is it possible to use a polearm with one hand somehow?
3 levels of the phalanx fighter archetype. As for the rest, I'm not overly familiar with the magus class so I can't offer too much aid there.
|
Reading up on the Magus, Spell Combat specifically says "light or one-handed" weapon. Spellstrike has no such specific restriction, but it does say you need to actually cast the touch spell, which likely means you need one hand free.
Since you've already expressed interest in a Cavalier build, I'd suggest taking a level dip of Cavalier and Magus the rest of the way (or just take a lot of mounted combat feats) and wield a lance. Lances have reach, and you can use them one-handed as long as you're riding a mount. How enlarge person works into this I don't know, since you'd need your mount and yourself to be enchanted.
If your goal is to spell combat with a polearm while enlarged, I think your best bet is to simply carry a polearm, drop it before Enlarge Person is cast, then pick it back up. It'll now be one size category too small for you, which means you can wield it one-handed. You can do the same trick with a polearm sized for a Small wielder and skip the need to drop it and pick it up, but remember: you take a penalty for wielding wrong-sized weapons.
The "drop it and pick it up" method means it's appropriately sized for you when you're not enlarged, allowing you to switch up your tactics-- maybe wear a spiked gauntlet so you can TWF or two-hand as appropriate. The "stole it from a gnome" method lets you Spell Combat at any size but always take the penalty.
I don't know much about myrmidarchs, but I've seen them mentioned on these boards a lot and nobody ever has much good to say about them.
Small sized reach weapons can be wielded in one hand with a -2 penalty
|
|
Is it possible to use a polearm with one hand somehow?3 levels of the phalanx fighter archetype. As for the rest, I'm not overly familiar with the magus class so I can't offer too much aid there.
That archetype can only one-hand a polearm if it carries a shield in the off-hand. A magus would need his other hand free to spellcast.
That archetype can only one-hand a polearm if it carries a shield in the off-hand. A magus would need his other hand free to spellcast.Is it possible to use a polearm with one hand somehow?3 levels of the phalanx fighter archetype. As for the rest, I'm not overly familiar with the magus class so I can't offer too much aid there.
He could use a buckler, I believe, and still cast spells.
EDIT: I've been ninja'd.
Again, small sized glaive or something is probably your best bet.
|
Having played one myself, I recommend a few levels of alchemist to go with your fighter (polearm master or two-handed fighter works well). Make sure you've got an Int of at least 13, and you'll be able to prepare several extracts of enlarge person and pick up fun feats to use with polearms, like Improved and Greater Trip.
The additional skill points are nice and the long list of alchemist class skills is even nicer. 3 levels of the vivisectionist archetype will give you an additional 2d6 sneak attack damage. Extracts such as expeditious retreat, shield, and touch of the sea will make you incredibly versatile in combat, while others, such as: detect secret doors and disguise self, allow you to keep up with the party rogue. You will be able to help out the party healer by using wands and scrolls of cure spells, and will be able to brew your own potions (which any party should appreciate). Your mutagen will grant you a bonus to a physical score that stacks nicely with others.
Lastly, you will be able to throw things. Throw ALL the things.
I also like the idea of a gun-toting myrmidarch, but I haven't been able to make that archetype work for me. I really want it to though!
You do not need to wield the reach weapon in one hand to be able to use magus abilities. It has been stated multiple times by developers on these threads that grasping/letting go with one of your hands is a free action, and thus you can use the spell strike ability while wielding a two-handed weapon. For spell combat, you would need to have a one-handed weapon handy as a back-up.
You can't use spell combat with it, spell combat specifically states it has to be a light or one-handed weapon. Also, where has that been stated? Linkage?
If you're ok with third party stuff, there is a great plethora of third party arcanas on d20PFSRD and Enruned Great Weapon is almost exactly what you're looking for. You have to use some arcane pool, but you can use a two handed weapon with all the magus class features for 10 minutes/level. There are equivalent ones for shields and light weapons (for TWF).
Greatweapon spell combat from might of the magus is the best thing for it. It costs a feat but lets you use 2 handed weapons for it
Mounted magus with a lance could work per RAW. I think it's cheesy but cool to imagine, hitting someone with a lance charges up with shocking grasp. You'd need a rod of quicken to make it work optimally with a chargeling mount, however. Quickened shocking grasp as a swift action then charge to get a bonus to hit and do double damage on the weapon. Unfortunately lance is only critical on a 20.
|
|
Mounted magus with a lance could work per RAW. I think it's cheesy but cool to imagine, hitting someone with a lance charges up with shocking grasp. You'd need a rod of quicken to make it work optimally with a chargeling mount, however. Quickened shocking grasp as a swift action then charge to get a bonus to hit and do double damage on the weapon. Unfortunately lance is only critical on a 20.
I think that's my favorite method to achieve this as well, especially since you get a +1 high ground bonus from being on horseback instead of the -2 penalty for wielding a wrong-sized polearm.
I think the metamagic rod is an unnecessary expenditure however. Charging with a lance already does fearsome damage. I'd say the fact that you can follow it up with a Shocking Lance is cheese enough without having to do both in the same turn.
But you can't cast shocking grasp and charge in the same turn without it. That would be pretty awesome.
Yeah the charging seems like it would be hard to manage. One round cast, next round charge, repeat. It would work but it would be slow. And it wouldn't give you reach, which seems to be what you're after. You wouldn't be able to quicken spells for a while, so your build would take time to reach the confusing pseudo-viability/super coolness it would get.
Lances provide reach.
What! Lances have reach? What the hell have I been doing? I think everyone agreed to change it behind my back. I'm sort of dummy.
|
|
I'm not sure about "one round cast, next round charge". I was thinking charge when your target of choice is over yonder, then cast when he's already next to you.
As for "close melee nova", you can 5-ft step in the middle of a full-attack action. So if you're on horseback and there's an enemy next to you, you can use Spell combat to Shocking Grasp him, 5-ft step back (and yes, eat the AoO) and hit him with the lance. Or lance first if he's still 10 feet away.
The best part is that you don't even need armor spikes/gauntlet like most polearm builds because you've got touch spells. And you're on a horse who can attack adjacent enemies for you. :)
Wow. Phalanx Soldier has a lot of options...
Polearms: bardiche, bec de corbin, bill, glaive, glaive-guisarme, guisarme, halberd, hooked lance, lucerne hammer, mancatcher, monk's spade, naginata, nodachi, ranseur, and tiger fork
Spears:amentum, boar spear, javelin, harpoon, lance, longspear, pilum, shortspear, sibat, spear, tiger fork, and trident
A 3-level dip into phalanx soldier would severely delay a magus's spells unfortunately. As a Gestalt character it'd be awesome, however.
Wow. You guys thought of everything. I didn't realize that spell combat required a light weapon. I thought it was just a one-handed weapon. I guess that explains why the Dex Magus is so popular. (autocorrect almost made that sentence read a whole different way ... "dex" Magus indeed...)
I'll have to think on it some more. As to why I want reach - it's like a better AC, harder to hit someone when you can't close with them. I love the titan mauler idea, but I love that archetype anyway.
I swear, I think I like building characters as much as playing. Explains why I can never settle on a concept.
It doesn't require a light weapon, or else the most common magus weapon, the scimitar, wouldn't be allowed. One-handed weapon or light weapons are both fine.
I swear, I think I like building characters as much as playing. Explains why I can never settle on a concept.
I know what that's like, trust me.
|
|
Having reach as a Magus also conveniently solves the Combat Casting issue, since the guy you're full-attacking isn't actually threatening you, he's ten feet away.
Let's summarize all the options we've come up with (in no particular order):
1. Ride a horse and wield a lance.
2. Wield a Small-sized polearm.
3. Take three levels of Phalanx Soldier (Fighter) and wear a buckler.
4. Take two levels of Titan Mauler (Barbarian). Buckler optional.
5. Take one hand off the haft as a free action, cast a spell, grasp polearm to deliver spell.
6. Drop a polearm, cast enlarge person, then pick it back up.
7. Use third party material.
Did I miss anything?
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Use a whip.Having reach as a Magus also conveniently solves the Combat Casting issue, since the guy you're full-attacking isn't actually threatening you, he's ten feet away.
Let's summarize all the options we've come up with (in no particular order):
1. Ride a horse and wield a lance.
2. Wield a Small-sized polearm.
3. Take three levels of Phalanx Soldier (Fighter) and wear a buckler.
4. Take two levels of Titan Mauler (Barbarian). Buckler optional.
5. Take one hand off the haft as a free action, cast a spell, grasp polearm to deliver spell.
6. Drop a polearm, cast enlarge person, then pick it back up.
7. Use third party material.Did I miss anything?
Truth. A magus is a touch spell delivery platform, so there's 2 good ways to deliver it.
1 - use a whip. Weapon damage isn't a big deal since all of your real damage is coming from the spells anyways. Reach allows you to bypass a lot of concentration checks.
2 - use a critical fishing weapon like a scimitar. This method drastically ups the damage, at the cost of concentration and ability to actually use Spell Combat due to not able to reach opponents as easily. Using Spell Combat every round should be a goal for the magus since that means the most action economy. The magus will end up having to perform a lot more standard action touch spell attacks, with Spellstrike usually.
I've seen them both at work, and it seems like route 1 is better just because able to hit everything within reach and using all of your actions every round is really feasible.
If you're cool with third party / homebrew stuff, my "Reaver" magus archetype has proven fairly popular.
Use a whip.Having reach as a Magus also conveniently solves the Combat Casting issue, since the guy you're full-attacking isn't actually threatening you, he's ten feet away.
Let's summarize all the options we've come up with (in no particular order):
1. Ride a horse and wield a lance.
2. Wield a Small-sized polearm.
3. Take three levels of Phalanx Soldier (Fighter) and wear a buckler.
4. Take two levels of Titan Mauler (Barbarian). Buckler optional.
5. Take one hand off the haft as a free action, cast a spell, grasp polearm to deliver spell.
6. Drop a polearm, cast enlarge person, then pick it back up.
7. Use third party material.Did I miss anything?
Truth. A magus is a touch spell delivery platform, so there's 2 good ways to deliver it.
1 - use a whip. Weapon damage isn't a big deal since all of your real damage is coming from the spells anyways. Reach allows you to bypass a lot of concentration checks.
2 - use a critical fishing weapon like a scimitar. This method drastically ups the damage, at the cost of concentration and ability to actually use Spell Combat due to not able to reach opponents as easily. Using Spell Combat every round should be a goal for the magus since that means the most action economy. The magus will end up having to perform a lot more standard action touch spell attacks, with Spellstrike usually.
I've seen them both at work, and it seems like route 1 is better just because able to hit everything within reach and using all of your actions every round is really feasible.
I think that's the whole list. However, these recent comments have made me realize that there's a disconnect in how I'm thinking of a Magus nd what a Magus actually does. I have been thinking front line fighter type who hits hard with a weapon. I have been thinking of his spells as a secondary mode of damage, not his primary. A fighter who casts, not a caster who fights.
I'll definitely need to rethink the concept. Using a whip seems like the best way to get reach without giving too much up, although the small polearm is neat, too.
|
|
It doesn't require a light weapon, or else the most common magus weapon, the scimitar, wouldn't be allowed. One-handed weapon or light weapons are both fine.
It does require a Light, one-handed weapon it's just that most Magus take the dervish fighting feat that lets them treat the scimitar as a Light weapon.
If you don't mind focusing on one spell then the "magical lineage" Shocking Grasp for still spell would get rid of that pesky problem of needing one hand for the somatic components (at least I think that's how Still Spell would interact with spell combat...)
Should work with Spell Strike regardless. I posted a decent build for a Shocking Grasp focused Magus a while back that would work pretty well for this. Would require preferred spell so that you could have a Metamagic enhanced Shocking grasp at your fingertips when you need it but it should work. Elemental Admixture (allowing you to change the element of the spell) would be nice to be able to pull out an "Acid Grasp" or whatever if needed. Later you could drop Quicken for an extra attack or whatever.
I put together a phalanx soldier/skinir using advice from this thread. What do you guys think?
He uses a heavy shield rather than a buckler, but that's okay since he can turn it into an animated shield with a swift action and move action, leaving him with a standard action to use spellstrike as his round one opener.
He also has several identical suits of armor that have been animated as animated objects, the better to confuse his enemies during battle.
It doesn't require a light weapon, or else the most common magus weapon, the scimitar, wouldn't be allowed. One-handed weapon or light weapons are both fine.It does require a Light, one-handed weapon it's just that most Magus take the dervish fighting feat that lets them treat the scimitar as a Light weapon.
Spell Combat (Ex): At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand.
Also, dervish dance does not allow one to treat a scimitar as a light weapon. For instance, a dervish dancer wielding a scimitar cannot use piranha strike. What it does is add the scimitar to the list of non-light weapons that can benefit from weapon finesse, and of course lets you use Dex to damage.
The general consensus for this has never sat well with me. Don't get me wrong, I don't think anyone should try to bring a magus wielding a two-handed weapon and wanting to use spell combat to a game (unless 3PP is being used and/or house rules have been worked out for the concept). However, bear with me for a mini-rant on what frustrates me about this topic... I'll try to stay on point.
Jason Bulmahn's quote from the playtest is pretty darn clear and is one of the main things along with a text breakdown to quash any magus build trying to use a two-handed weapon. A couple things that aren't mentioned whenever this is brought up are:
- His comment was in response to questions about circumventing the limitation through the methods that casters usually do to free up a hand, i.e. shifting the weapon to an unreadied one-hand hold as a free action while casting, then shifting grip back to attack.
- "Just like two-handed fighting, a two-handed weapon isn't going to work," isn't a 100% kosher statement, because you can TWF with a greatsword and armor spikes.
The second concrete point opposing a two-handed weapon during spell combat is the text of the ability. Again, "while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand," is pretty darn clear. However, focusing on this otherwise straightforward phrase without fitting it into the context of spell combat's entire paragraph misses the fact that every sentence is worded from the perspective of your average humanoid without extra limbs using two-weapon combat.
Neither of these two primary pillars of the argument that you cannot incorporate a two-handed weapon into your attack routine during spell combat were written with the perspective of the multi-limbed magus in mind. Again, trying to bring this argument to a PFS game or a non-house rules, non-3PP game is going to be a lesson in futility. I just fail to see what the big deal is of letting someone who's sacrificed magus levels or been forced into a particular archetype to have 3+ limbs use a weapon held in two hands plus a third free hand for spell combat. It's no more wrongbadbroken than the greatsword/armor spiking TWF (or using a flurry of blows with a single weapon, just since I've got the soapbox out and all warmed up).
(Plus the image of a magus full of righteous fury wielding a crackling polearm while his hair is animated and weaving spells is cool. Cool, I say.)
|
It doesn't require a light weapon, or else the most common magus weapon, the scimitar, wouldn't be allowed. One-handed weapon or light weapons are both fine.It does require a Light, one-handed weapon it's just that most Magus take the dervish fighting feat that lets them treat the scimitar as a Light weapon.
You do understand the difference between the light, and one-handed weapons?
Does nobody wish to comment on my phalanx soldier/skirnir? :(
I thought it a pretty interesting character.
Just to throw some of what I've experienced in, I've got a player running a strength based magus wielding a greatsword and he's doing fine. He does not use spell combat at all, instead using his spells as standard actions for self buffing or for support type spells to overcome non-combat obstacles.
Otherwise, he uses his weapon enhancing abilities and picked up the pool strike arcana to boost his damage some while swinging the two hander in combat. I believe his intelligence is a 15 including the bonus from his headband of intelligence +2.
He's only up to level 6 so far, but I suspect it will continue to be viable for a good little ways. That said, it's very likely not nearly as "powerful" of a build as a higher intelligence one-handed weapon wielding magus would be, but it works well enough for what it is.
|
|
Does nobody wish to comment on my phalanx soldier/skirnir? :(
I thought it a pretty interesting character.
It is interesting. There's a lot to take in-- he just seems to have so many options I'm not sure I'd know what to do from one round to the next. My biggest worry is, if he animates and looses his shield, will the phalanx soldier ability still let him wield the naginata one-handed?
The animated suits of armor are a neat idea, but I'm not sure I see it actually fooling anyone. Once you cast a spell, enemies are going to know which is which. Some GMs might be at a loss to determine exactly how likely an enemy would be to fall for it. Still, an extra sword arm on your side is always nice.
Also, that's a LOT of weapon/shield properties you can imbue. I think I need to read what the skirnir gets exactly.
Just to throw some of what I've experienced in, I've got a player running a strength based magus wielding a greatsword and he's doing fine. He does not use spell combat at all, instead using his spells as standard actions for self buffing or for support type spells to overcome non-combat obstacles.
Otherwise, he uses his weapon enhancing abilities and picked up the pool strike arcana to boost his damage some while swinging the two hander in combat. I believe his intelligence is a 15 including the bonus from his headband of intelligence +2.
He's only up to level 6 so far, but I suspect it will continue to be viable for a good little ways. That said, it's very likely not nearly as "powerful" of a build as a higher intelligence one-handed weapon wielding magus would be, but it works well enough for what it is.
I think your player's magus will do just fine at higher levels. One large Achilles' heel of the magus is that concentration checks are hard, and prone to fail. Even with a fairly large Int bonus, and a fairly high attack penalty used to boost the concentration check, it still has unsettling odds. Your player's strategy of using his spells outside of melee range, and using spell strike up close is a good strategy even for a one-hander wielding magus. Granted, cutting down a foe at melee range while simultaneously fireballing a group of reinforcements charging at the party is epic and spectacular, but far too often the attempt will actually result in a melee miss and loss of the spell.
My biggest worry is, if he animates and looses his shield, will the phalanx soldier ability still let him wield the naginata one-handed?
I hadn't considered that. Still, phalanx soldier says "so long as he wields a shield." As far as I know, an animated shield is still wielded (just not held in hand). If it wasn't wielded, then you wouldn't take the penalties for it and it would be an easy target for destruction.
|
Right now I'm playing a master summoner. However, my DM has been sending creatures past the big nasty fighter to get to me (lowest AC in the group), so I don't think my character is long for the world.
You could try boosting the AC of your summoner.
An enchanted mithral breastplace, mithral shield and reduce person is a good start.
Also, use invisibility/vanish. Summoning/buffing won't break either.
Another possibility: your summoner is 3/4 BAB. Give him a longspear, the mithral breastplace and cast shield. If built for it, a summoner is about as good in hand-to-hand as a melee focused bard.
I have never had problems with concentration checks.
|
|
Spell CombatIt doesn't require a light weapon, or else the most common magus weapon, the scimitar, wouldn't be allowed. One-handed weapon or light weapons are both fine.It does require a Light, one-handed weapon it's just that most Magus take the dervish fighting feat that lets them treat the scimitar as a Light weapon.
To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand
Emphasis mine.
