In regard to "turn left and die," I used to love those games -- because if you moved those 10 ft. without prodding ahead with your 10-ft. pole, Gygax' rationale was that you DESERVED to die because of your carelessness. His logic was that if you let 'em live anyway, you were encouraging bad habits and denying the players a chance to develop better skills. Hell, even an augury or summon monster I spell or an orc servant would have kept that group alive.
Needless to say, I have a lot of sympathy for that attitude sometimes, especially when I hear people go off about how the DM should fudge rolls to prevent PC deaths, and how anyone without a bunch of 18s off the bat would quit the game. Hell, I often miss playing a game in which, if you played poorly, you died; in which a bad roll could potentially kill you; and in which, if you made it to 10th level, it was a major accomplishment and tribute to your skill and luck.
I know that style of play has become extremely unpopular, but the flat-out assertions that it's "worse" are constant reminders that a lot of people don't have the faintest clue of the difference between "fact" and "opinion." Indeed, I try not to, but when I see things like "That's why we use point buy. The clearly superior choice," I picture a six-your old posting it and looking all smug and proud of himself.
Point-buy and dice rolling each have advantages and disadvantages -- or, more accurately, they each have points which some consider a bug, and others a feature. That's OK. When you find a group, TALK to them. Find out their playstyle and make your choices accordingly. Don't agree to play and then stomp off in a huff because they don't all agree with what you decide is the "right" way to play.
Nicely put all around.
I find it difficult to believe that 'player skill' really has an objective effect on the game, considering the DM controls everything but the players.
I guess that depends on your DM. Some like to "win". I was, and am, always happy when my PCs think it through and they have an effect on the game...
I guess that depends on your DM. Some like to "win". I was, and am, always happy when my PCs think it through and they have an effect on the game...The problem being that players can only have that effect on the game with the DMs permission.
And with a good DM this shouldn't be a problem. If your DM is one of the other type... well, find another game. Or run one yourself.
The problem of only being able to do things the DM allows is pretty much universal to RPGs with the exception of CRPGs and find your path type games which have their own built in limitations on what effects players can have.
|
Kirth was talking about giving some classes bonus points. You could base it on class, so Monks get more points than Fighters or Wizards. The downside to this is the problem of multi-classing. Is taking a level dip of Monk worth it for a Fighter just to get the extra stat bumps? You'd lose your Favored Class bonus, but if you get a free +2 Con and +2 Int, who cares?How about instead of changing the point allocations at start, giving bonus attribute points from levelling at a faster or slower rate? That way you get rewarded for sticking with the class which is MADest.
Totally MAD characters (monk) +1 per 2 levels, no more than +5 to any one attribute.
Somewhat MAD characters (bard, paladin, ranger) +1 per 3 levels, no more than +5 to any one attribute.
Fairly SAD characters (cleric, fighter, barbarian, rogue, sorcerer) +1 per 4 levels
Very SAD characters (wizard, druid) +1 per five levels.
My idea for helping MAD characters in a point buy world is to give one point buy point per level to spend or save as desired. The SAD guys are probably saving points to bump that single attribute every 4 levels like normal while the MAD guys are spending less on their bumps because they are spreading them around more.
Removed a post. Flag it and move on please...
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Personally, I really dislike point buy, as it favors classes that require fewer stats and screws those that use or require multiple stats. It is the least balanced or fair system for charactr creation.
I'm also in favor of chance and do not have a huge problem playing with a weakness, if it is not debilitating.
My idea for helping MAD characters in a point buy world is to give one point buy point per level to spend or save as desired. The SAD guys are probably saving points to bump that single attribute every 4 levels like normal while the MAD guys are spending less on their bumps because they are spreading them around more.
Does your system cap out at not increasing any stat above 18 that way? If so it's more worthwhile as the SAD classes will almost always have that at the start of play and be focussing in secondary attributes. Otherwise, even for MAD characters getting one stat extremely high is usually more beneficial than spreading it around.
People like point buy for a number of reasons:
1- They claim it is "fair". And while it does assign the same point pool to each character, it is far from fair going by RAW. Since everyone knows that the high stats are what give you the most power, the inequality comes from the difference in how shamelessly people use dump stats. If one person shows up with no dump stats while the guy across from him has 2 or more dump stats they will be every bit as unbalanced as when one player gets lucky on rolled stats vs one who was rather unlucky.
There is a fix... Point Buy with no buy downs IS fair.
2- They say it allows people to show up with a character in hand to the game session. This is true. I question why people think that is an asset? It seams better in my mind to work out the make up and background of the party with everyone at the table. It could well spell the difference between a group of complimentary classed characters with a tied together background and a solid working relationship, and the walk in the door ready nightmare of a party almost completely made up of one class with backgrounds that would never work together and no sane reason why these people would band together at all.
But if you want the same effect from rolled simply have everyone roll for the GM days in advance of the game and then build whatever they want with those rolls... Although I question the benefit of this except for quick one shot adventures.
3- It allows any character to be "power gamed". Most of the time when you roll 4d6 drop you don't get an 18 as your highest stat. Often a 16 or 17 is the high stat before mods. By going point buy you can get rid of those low primary stats and always have an 18 as the high stat if you wish.
A little off topic I wonder what would happen if I gave players 3 options to generate stats:
1- Elite Array, arrange as desired.
2- 15 Point Buy, no buy downs.
3- 4d6 drop low, rolled in order.
Each has advantages and disadvantages...
People like point buy for a number of reasons:
1- They claim it is "fair". And while it does assign the same point pool to each character, it is far from fair going by RAW. Since everyone knows that the high stats are what give you the most power, the inequality comes from the difference in how shamelessly people use dump stats. If one person shows up with no dump stats while the guy across from him has 2 or more dump stats they will be every bit as unbalanced as when one player gets lucky on rolled stats vs one who was rather unlucky.
There is a fix... Point Buy with no buy downs IS fair.
2- They say it allows people to show up with a character in hand to the game session. This is true. I question why people think that is an asset? It seams better in my mind to work out the make up and background of the party with everyone at the table. It could well spell the difference between a group of complimentary classed characters with a tied together background and a solid working relationship, and the walk in the door ready nightmare of a party almost completely made up of one class with backgrounds that would never work together and no sane reason why these people would band together at all.
But if you want the same effect from rolled simply have everyone roll for the GM days in advance of the game and then build whatever they want with those rolls... Although I question the benefit of this except for quick one shot adventures.
3- It allows any character to be "power gamed". Most of the time when you roll 4d6 drop you don't get an 18 as your highest stat. Often a 16 or 17 is the high stat before mods. By going point buy you can get rid of those low primary stats and always have an 18 as the high stat if you wish.
1. I would not call this unbalanced at all, even if it is not perfectly equal.
If someone wants to dump stats, that is up to them. It just creates a another weakness. If the GM does not have enough variety in his game so that the weakness is not dealt with, that is on the GM.
2. The party should not have to make up a background at table, over the phone, and so on together. Maybe the characters met up by random chance. I have never had an issue with background working together as long as they fit into the main point of the story. Most GM's will give you a short introduction into the game similar to what AP's do before anything starts.
Personal background stories can also be edited to fit into the main story so that is not an issue at all.
3. As it has been noted can happen either way. Rolling does nothing to prevent powergaming unless poor stats are rolled. I can't even say it stops it then. A player would still put the lowest stat in the least needed place. Power gaming begins with stat selection to an extent, but it does not end there. Feat, spells, and so on are even more important. 18's are over rated. In most cases you are better served to top off at a 16(sometimes a 15 works if you want more versatility) when doing point buy, and boost other areas.
That rolled in order kills it for a lot of people. Not even the people I have met that like rolling want to do the "roll in order". Now this is assuming a person likes to decide what character they want to play.
If you just want to play, and making sure all roles in the party are taken care of is not a priority then this is not so bad. Depending on how hard a GM runs his games that might be a bad idea though.
15 point buy without no buy downs is worse than the elite array, IMHO, and if someone were to powergame the elite array would be the way to go.
1- They claim it is "fair". And while it does assign the same point pool to each character, it is far from fair going by RAW. Since everyone knows that the high stats are what give you the most power, the inequality comes from the difference in how shamelessly people use dump stats. If one person shows up with no dump stats while the guy across from him has 2 or more dump stats they will be every bit as unbalanced as when one player gets lucky on rolled stats vs one who was rather unlucky.
Well it depends on how much your DM is prepared to make you play those dump stats. If your DM treats stats as just mechanical appendages to your character and cheerfully let's your Int 7 fighter come up with complex strategies, your Wis 8 character be restrained and insightful, your Cha 5 character to be eloquent and influential, or even ignores encumbrance and permits your Str 8 wizard to carry hundreds of pounds of gear, then sure it's unfair because the DM isn't doing his job.
If he insists that if you produce a character with a low charisma you act like it's a low charisma in how you interact with the rest of the party and NPCs, it's fair.
As Wraithstrike says, if you dump a stat, you give yourself a weakness.
2- They say it allows people to show up with a character in hand to the game session. This is true. I question why people think that is an asset? It seams better in my mind to work out the make up and background of the party with everyone at the table. It could well spell the difference between a group of complimentary classed characters with a tied together background and a solid working relationship, and the walk in the door ready nightmare of a party almost completely made up of one class with backgrounds that would never work together and no sane reason why these people would band together at all.
If you know who you are playing with, you can do this anyway - with mobile phones and e-mail, you are in touch with your gaming group whenever you and they want. Only difference is you don't have to be in the same physical location before you start.
But if you want the same effect from rolled simply have everyone roll for the GM days in advance of the game and then build whatever they want with those rolls... Although I question the benefit of this except for quick one shot adventures.
Which again means you have to be in the same time and place, and it's a busy world. If you can only meet once a week, then spending a session to make characters up can be a waste of a week, in the view of some. Don't get me wrong, if you are with a new group you do not know, bonding can be important and getting to know one another a good thing - so character making sessions are not bad, as such. It's just that some people may prefer to avoid them.
3- It allows any character to be "power gamed". Most of the time when you roll 4d6 drop you don't get an 18 as your highest stat. Often a 16 or 17 is the high stat before mods. By going point buy you can get rid of those low primary stats and always have an 18 as the high stat if you wish.
I don't know about 'power gamed' but I am aware that it enables you to build the character that you want to have. I've built point-buy characters whose highest stat was a 14 before now. The most powerful characters I have ever played have been made by dice rolling, though.
I don't know about 'power gamed' but I am aware that it enables you to build the character that you want to have. I've built point-buy characters whose highest stat was a 14 before now. The most powerful characters I have ever played have been made by dice rolling, though.
I have this experience also. My two best characters had no scores lower than a 14 due to high rolls.
One was a druid who was overshadowed by my tiger of awesomeness, and the other was a scout(3.5)/ranger(PF).
Alas I have never build a point buy character. My groups have always rolled out and the stats and then assigned then as needed. Thou a few of the people I played with always seem to roll high. I have watched my wife roll out stright 18's on a 4d6 drop low number character.
I have learned thou the stats do not make a character. you can play a creative character with lower stat numbers.
The numbers alone don't make a character, but they do matter. The ability to play characters with lower numbers depends on player skill, and how dangerous and varied a particular GM's games are.
As a DM, my preferred method for handling this issue is to give out a couple of arrays to choose from (usually a little powerful so nobody complaines). I dislike having only one array or the traditional point buy system because it seems to penalizae characters who don't want to have any true dump stats.
Lets take for instance, a Paladin. I hate playing characters with low wisdom or low intelligence. I'm a pretty smart guy, so playing someone who is stupid has little appeal to me, as I would find it difficult, if not impossible to role-play properly for an extended period of time (my own cleverness could often amount to meta-gaming, as my character wouldn't be thinking such things, whereas I can safely assume that with a higher score, if the character knows what I know, he would come to the same conclusions I as a player come to. Now, back to the Paladin...You can't dump charisma on a paladin because that's your secondary ability score. You also need a high strength and a decent con. You probably don't want your dex to be below 10 either. So you can only dump wis or cha. A paladin *shouldn't dump wisdom...wisdom is determines your ability to make wise decisions, tell truth from lies, and sometimes even the application of right vs. wrong. It's not in character for a paladin to have a low wisdom score. And if you don't want your character to be a box of rocks, or want to take combat expertise or something, point buy ensures your mediocrity. A lot of classes can take a dump or two without hurting themselves much. For classes with MAD, it is sometimes a choice between mechanics and flavor/character concept/role playing. The virtue of rolling is that if you don't have any bad rolls, you can have a character without a stat lower than 10 or 12. A wizard with 6 cha and 8 str is probably less handicapped than paladin with a dexterity, wisdom and intelligence scores of 10.
This is why I like giving players a couple powerful arrays to play with. Low strength doesn't hurt a wizard much, but mediocre strength doesn't help him much either. It's the most benefit to the characters that need it.
The elite/heroic array is a 15pt buy anyway and since its used by the iconic and almost all npcs everyone is buggered equally.
Pretty much this. I'd consider a point buy for a special case, just as the adventure paths do. For example, Rosie Cusswell, a halfling fighter, is built on a point buy in Skull and Shackles to allow her to have a moderate-high str score that'd otherwise be impossible for the character. However, I'd rather these special cases be just that, special cases.
I think a good policy here is "elite array, point buy on special request." YMMV.
1. I would not call this unbalanced at all, even if it is not perfectly equal.
If someone wants to dump stats, that is up to them. It just creates a another weakness. If the GM does not have enough variety in his game so that the weakness is not dealt with, that is on the GM.
2. The party should not have to make up a background at table, over the phone, and so on together. Maybe the characters met up by random chance. I have never had an issue with background working together as long as they fit into the main point of the story. Most GM's will give you a short introduction into the game similar to what AP's do before anything starts.
Personal background stories can also be edited to fit into the main story so that is not an issue at all.3. As it has been noted can happen either way. Rolling does nothing to prevent powergaming unless poor stats are rolled. I can't even say it stops it then. A player would still put the lowest stat in the least needed place. Power gaming begins with stat selection to an extent, but it does not end there. Feat, spells, and so on are even more important. 18's are over rated. In most cases you are better served to top off at a 16(sometimes a 15 works if you want more versatility) when doing point buy, and boost other areas.
1- If a GM has to work extra elements into her game just to exploit a dumped stat then it's poor excuse to allow stat dumping.
2- This is SO much easier if everyone is on the same page from the start. Having to edit someones background often upsets that player and just creates extra work for the GM.
3- Nothing prevents power gaming... But anything that lowers the unbalances created by power gaming is good. If you can No Longer buy down your Cha to a 7, then that means your high stats are a bit lower than they would have been, especially when you have a table of mixed player types as I am sure many GMs do.
2- They say it allows people to show up with a character in hand to the game session. This is true. I question why people think that is an asset? It seams better in my mind to work out the make up and background of the party with everyone at the table. It could well spell the difference between a group of complimentary classed characters with a tied together background and a solid working relationship, and the walk in the door ready nightmare of a party almost completely made up of one class with backgrounds that would never work together and no sane reason why these people would band together at all.If you know who you are playing with, you can do this anyway - with mobile phones and e-mail, you are in touch with your gaming group whenever you and they want. Only difference is you don't have to be in the same physical location before you start.
But if you want the same effect from rolled simply have everyone roll for the GM days in advance of the game and then build whatever they want with those rolls... Although I question the benefit of this except for quick one shot adventures.Which again means you have to be in the same time and place, and it's a busy world. If you can only meet once a week, then spending a session to make characters up can be a waste of a week, in the view of some. Don't get me wrong, if you are with a new group you do not know, bonding can be important and getting to know one another a good thing - so character making sessions are not bad, as such. It's just that some people may prefer to avoid them.
You have a good point about people being able to do this anyway by simply staying in touch. But you are forgetting you can simply meet your GM online at any convenient time (say when you are chatting about your plans for your character) and use one of the many online dice rollers to just as efficiently have stats ready before the game. Heck, just use a gaming forum's dice system and you can get recorded stat rolls even if your GM isn't online at the time.
You have a good point about people being able to do this anyway by simply staying in touch. But you are forgetting you can simply meet your GM online at any convenient time (say when you are chatting about your plans for your character) and use one of the many online dice rollers to just as efficiently have stats ready before the game. Heck, just use a gaming forum's dice system and you can get recorded...
This is very true. Ultimately, it's horses for courses, pay your money and take your choice.
Dabbler ... Wraithstrike...
I am not saying Point Buy is bad. I am saying Stat Buy Downs are bad.
If you live in fear of that one in a million character who has incredible rolled stats... Then nothing I say will convince you rolling isn't bad. But forgive me if I actually like having to think up a new concept to fit my stat rolls. It's fun playing something new each time and not having to see cookie cutter stat builds. This is why I not only like rolling but I also like Rolling In Order.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Just want to point something out:
This...
I am saying Stat Buy Downs are bad....does not follow from this...
I actually like having to think up a new concept to fit my stat rolls.
One is a preference, while the other is a value judgment/condemnation.
Jiggy, I wasn't trying to say one followed from the other. I am allowed two separate opinions or preferences... am I not?
.... point buy systems only lead to Min-Maxing and Munchkinism, ...
Sorry I LOLed on this statement.
You don't need to be point buy to Min/Max or Munchkin a character. All point buy does is makes sure everyone has an equal chance at having a working character. No one player in a game has inherently better or worse than another. This makes one point of the game, to feel useful, equally valid to all.
I remember one time I rolled 3's for all my stats (4D6 take out the lowest). There was another time I got stuck with a character, till I quit the game, with 14, 8, 11, 11, 11, 11.
The problem with rolling stats is that you always have the possibility of getting stuck with a 3, or some equally un-godly bad stat by your traditional by the book manors. Yes you can do your own rules, but you still don't have everyone on equal footing for raw character power.
Dabbler ... Wraithstrike...
I am not saying Point Buy is bad. I am saying Stat Buy Downs are bad.
...and we are saying they are not inherently bad at all. They are only a bad thing if the DM fails to enforce the rules properly.
If you live in fear of that one in a million character who has incredible rolled stats... Then nothing I say will convince you rolling isn't bad.
I can't speak for Wraithstrike, but I for one am not saying rolling is bad. I am just saying that I prefer point buy as having less inherent problems.
But forgive me if I actually like having to think up a new concept to fit my stat rolls.
I forgive you, I find it fun too.
It's fun playing something new each time and not having to see cookie cutter stat builds.
Your characters are as cookie-cutter as your imagination desires them to be. Anything you get in terms of variability by dice-rolling you can emulate in point buy, if you so wish.
This is why I not only like rolling but I also like Rolling In Order.
LOL, last time I did this I had a character with a great Con score...and nothing else! Str and Dex were under 10, mental stats were all 11's and 12's. It was the first PC diced up for the game, and the DM looked at them for a moment, looked at the rest of the players, and then suggested we go point-buy.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
One simple method I'd like to recommend for all those that dislike either the "cookie-cutteriness" that may follow from point buy or the inequality that follow from rolled stats, is the cards method. We used it for a while, it's really great in it's simplicity (even though we changed later on due to personal preferences.
Basically, you take 4-9 of hearts and spades of a normal 52-card deck, so you have 12 cards. Shuffle them, and put them into 6 stacks of two cards each (face down). Then turn them over. These are your six stats.
The stats are organic and you rarely get the "cookie-cutter" stats point buy gives you, but while they're not completely equal they take the worst out of the inequality of rolling. You might start with an 18, but that means no other stat above 16, and an average of 12 on the rest of your stats. If you start with an 8, the average for the rest of your stats is 14.
It's a REALLY great method if you want to create truly organic characters; we occasionally do this for one-nighters of hack'n'slash, that we take the card method, assign them organically top to bottom and people have to play with the stats they get, often forcing them to test something new. Those one-nighters have inspired at least some of my players and created a big oracle fan of someone who's never played anything but dwarven barbarians before. With point buy, that could never have happened - with stat rolling, there is a large risk someone wouldn't have fun at the game because they would feel completely inferior to someone else.
EDIT: Dabbler, while I agree that players CAN build outside cookie-cutter builds and do what they want with point buy, the game itself does not really encourage it through the rules; basically, you have to go against both the game design and a very common attitude amongst players to do it, and everyone has to be up to it or you end up with exactly the same inequality you do with dice rolled stats, except in this case the optimizing players will blame the non-optimized player for "doing wrong" rather than blaming bad dice rolls. (God, just realized how long that sentence was)
Oh, and as a side note, using the card method for "rolling in order" you basically can't have the situation you mentioned last. If you get below 10 in dex and str (both 9 is the only possibility), and say a 16 con, your mental stats will be _average_ 14.6, probably allowing you to build a main caster or at the very least a skilled support caster (say a bard).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And then the DM throws a second group of enemies at you just because. ;)
If you actually think I'm doing that, I'll show you my adventure notes next time. They list who the main bad guys are, what their responses to likely PC actions will be, and what additional resources they can call on. I always play the opposition within their means; pulling in extra stuff out of the air "just to add some challenge at the last minute" offends my sense of craft.
That hillbilly sniper that ambushed you guys on the road? Says right in the notes that he'll do that, and what his stats are. The extra skeletons and swordwraiths the field marshal sent in, during the last dungeon? Numbers and stats of reserves all noted (and all consistent with the guy's Leadership score, btw).
YMMV.
EDIT: Dabbler, while I agree that players CAN build outside cookie-cutter builds and do what they want with point buy, the game itself does not really encourage it through the rules; basically, you have to go against both the game design and a very common attitude amongst players to do it, and everyone has to be up to it or you end up with exactly the same inequality you do with dice rolled stats, except in this case the optimizing players will blame the non-optimized player for "doing wrong" rather than blaming bad dice rolls. (God, just realized how long that sentence was)
Players that want to optimize will optimize no matter what you do. Just because some players prefer mechanics to imagination is not anyone's fault but their own. In my experience rolling does not make these players any more imaginative, and as I've said before, point buy allows you to design the character you want. What some players want is optimized min/maxing, that's just the way it is. Is the way that they play the game wrongbadfun? It's not my cup of tea, but that doesn't make it bad, and it doesn't mean the point buy system is bad.
Personally, I love creating dex/int based fighters, or physical casters, smart monks or wise rogues, because, well, I'm quirky like that. I can do it with either method, but I like point buy because I always know what I am getting and I can make anything I desire with it.
If I have to roll for characters, though, it's no big deal.
Oh, and as a side note, using the card method for "rolling in order" you basically can't have the situation you mentioned last. If you get below 10 in dex and str (both 9 is the only possibility), and say a 16 con, your mental stats will be _average_ 14.6, probably allowing you to build a main caster or at the very least a skilled support caster (say a bard).
No, your card method is quite interesting! I may try it some time.
Personally, I prefer the point builds myself.
I am currently running back-to-back AP's so I have been having the players use the elite array. This seems to balance them nicely against the NPC's and monsters of the AP's.
I remember rolling. It has been more than fifteen years since I played a PC, but I definitely remember that of all the characters that I ever played with rolled stats very few were the equivalent of, or superior to, that elite array.
If I were a player and I was given the option I would go with point buy every time.
I am yet to actually have a chance to try the card method stringburka posted, but it's one I've recommended on these boards a great many times. :D
|
|
One simple method I'd like to recommend for all those that dislike either the "cookie-cutteriness" that may follow from point buy or the inequality that follow from rolled stats, is the cards method. We used it for a while, it's really great in it's simplicity (even though we changed later on due to personal preferences.
That's a really cool idea that I hadn't seen before. I may try that sometime.
I'm curious as to whether anyone else adds random factors to their point buy. For the game I'm currently in, we did point buy, but the number of points was 15 + 1d6.
And when it comes to really off-the-wall methods:
I own a die for which the faces are 3,4, +, -, x, and /. For a long time, whenever I GM'd, I'd give the players the option of rolling 3d6 per stat with that as one of the dice, allowing them the chance of getting a 36 in one of their abilities. (But a much greater chance of a 1 or a 2.)
Strangely enough, no one ever took me up on it.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Why do people imply that there is no Min/Maxing in Rolled stats?
Putting that randomly rolled 18 to INT and that randomly rolled 7 to CHA in a wizard build is just as munchkiny as choosing to have a 18 and a 7.
Choosing to make a fighter because you rolled 16 for STR and 8 for INT is also "min/maxing".
Don't get me wrong, I've played and enjoyed many games with both rolled stats and point buy. I think they are both valid options, but if I can choose, I'll take point buy every time.
It's pretty cool to be able to choose what you want to play instead of letting the dice make the decisions. Fairness in characters' stats doesn't hurt either.
Also, the "Gygax Did it/In old days we did things this way" argument just doesn't cut it with me.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Also, the "Gygax Did it/In old days we did things this way" argument just doesn't cut it with me.
Me too. Mainly because I am one of the old codgers who did it this way in the old days. We quit doing things that way for a reason.