Levels vs. Class Levels

[Dawsjax]

I'm having a discussion with my GM right now about abilities being Class Level dependent or Level dependent. In this situation, I have a 7th level Fighter whom I'm contemplating making a Samurai. Read this:

Challenge (Ex): Once per day, a samurai can challenge a foe to combat. As a swift action, the samurai chooses one target within sight to challenge. The samurai's melee attacks deal extra damage when made against the target of his challenge. This extra damage is equal to the samurai's level. The samurai can use this ability once per day at 1st level, plus one additional time per day for every three levels beyond 1st, to a maximum of seven times per day at 19th level.

Okay I get he only has one challenge per three levels of samurai, but the damage portion here reads "equal to the samurai's level". Would this mean only his samurai level or his total level from multiclassing? I ask because in the case of Smite Evil (clearly the mechanic challenge is based on) it reads "per paladin level" not paladin's level.

Another example:

Whenever an order of the warrior samurai declares a challenge, he receives damage reduction 1/— against attacks made by the target of his challenge. This DR increases by +1 for every four levels the samurai possesses.

This one makes me think even more it is not samurai only levels, but total class levels. Am I crazy? Would really appreciate some feedback here. Thanks!

[Thorkull]

You're crazy. :). In a class description, "the samurai's level" is semantically equal to "the number of levels the character has in the samurai class."

[Black Powder Chocobo]

Personally, unless it said character levels (which would include all classes), it is assumed that only class levels would count. I can see your point though that there is room for ambiguity with specific lack of class levels.

[Alitan]

Unless a class' ability specifically states otherwise (and I can't think of any instances that do, at the moment) references to level are referring to class levels in that class, not character levels.

[Ibrahm]

if you're right, this makes samurai a decent dip class

[Von Marshal]

Unless the entre spacificaly says "character level" it means the "Class level" of the Class entre the ability is describs.

[Von Marshal]

That is, (of the class the ability is describing.) before the english majors get hold of that.

[Dawsjax]

I'm studying to be an editor, and this kind of wording just makes me cringe. As a DM I agree with the consensus here, but I believe Paizo should find one method to write and stick to it. If each ability simply read "per x-amonut of samurai levels" this discussion would not exist.

[Jiggy]

Dawsjax wrote:

I'm studying to be an editor,

...
amonut

Sorry, just couldn't resist poking you for that one. ;)

[Marthian]

Alitan wrote:

Unless a class' ability specifically states otherwise (and I can't think of any instances that do, at the moment) references to level are referring to class levels in that class, not character levels.

Some Prestige Classes go by total level rather than Class level.

The Hellknight is one of them

[Dawsjax]

I should look into the Hellknight.

@Jiggy. Nice catch! *studying. Not there yet! Still able to laugh at myself, so I think I'll do well.

[Mojorat]

The wording of abilities in classes always treats it as if the class is the only thing that exists. If a class description says you get X for levels then its talking about levels in your class. Its consistent in this type of wording through all of the classes as far as I can tell.

[LazarX]

Class abilities always are based on class level unless it specifically calls out character level.

[Demonskunk]

No official input? I don't like taking the word of someone who's just assuming. the wording is different, so I'm personally interpreting it as "character level" not "class level" until I get a verdict from someone who's worked on it.

[jdead]

My interpretation goes a little more literal that what I'm seeing. When I see an ability that specifically designates, I believe it applies to what it is designating in a literal sense. Level means Character Level and Designated Levels mean class. There are some special limitations to this. For example:

Oracle
Flame Mystery
Revelation - Wings of Fire (Su): As a switft action, you can manifest a pair of fiery wings that grant you a fly speed of 60 feet with average maneuverability. You can use these wings for 1 minute per day per ORACLE LEVEL. This duration does not need to be consecutive, but it must be spent in 1 minute increments. You must be at least 7th LEVEL before selecting this revelation.

Think of the context of the qualifier as "you must have so much experience before you can have this". Whereas the duration is based off of the devotion to the class itself.

The exception being

Paladin
Smite Evil (Su): ... The smite evil effect remains until the target of the smite is dead or the next time the paladin rests and regains her uses of this ability. At 4th level, and at every three levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per day, AS INDICATED ON TABLE 3-11, to a maximum of seven times per day at 19th level.

The rule outlines Level generically for how many times times a paladin can smite based on the paladin table. Unlike their Divine Bond which indicates Level generically but does not have a specified progression based on the paladin table.

[rando1000]

Thorkull wrote:

You're crazy. :). In a class description, "the samurai's level" is semantically equal to "the number of levels the character has in the samurai class."

No, it's not. It's semantically equal to the number of levels the character, who happens to be a samurai, has. I'm not saying that was the intention, but the character is a samurai if he has even one level of it. Once you agree that the character is a samurai, the samurai's level becomes equal to the character level.

[Chess Pwn]

two years old man. And Level is class level. You can read differently but thems the rules.

[Mapleswitch]

Fantastic... Another "I'm right, you're wrong, I will look up no information to prove that I'm right, you must look up all the information to prove me wrong, because I'm right" thread....

Look under Multiclass in the Core Rulebook. Too hard? I'll simplify this for you:

(page 30) Instead of gaining the abilities granted by the next level in your character's current class, he can instead gain the 1st-level abilities of a new class, adding all of those abilities to his existing ones. This is known as "multiclassing."

[Nocte ex Mortis]

No, it doesn't. A Wizard/Sorcerer 10/10 is both a Wizard, and a Sorcerer. He is tenth level in each class, and is treated as such for all abilities in said classes.

[Chemlak]

If only there was something in the Core Rulebook that laid out how it works...

CRB, Classes, Multiclassing wrote:

Note that there are a number of effects and prerequisites that rely on a character's level or Hit Dice. Such effects are always based on the total number of levels or Hit Dice a character possesses, not just those from one class. The exception to this is class abilities, most of which are based on the total number of class levels that a character possesses of that particular class.

[Kazaan]

Moreover, in accordance with this FAQ, all class abilities are written with the presumption of a single-classed character. This is because there's no need to waste space to indicate that an ability is based on "your level in this particular class, but not your total character level" for every bloody class ability. Instead, they spell out the exceptions, "your levels in "x class" stack for determining your effective level for this ability" or "count your total character levels for the purpose of this ability" because that consumes a lot less space. The only stated exception to this is spellcasting, in which bonuses to spellcasting from one class will apply to spellcasting from other classes (if applicable). This is presumably because multi-classing as a caster is bad enough; multiclassing as two casters can be a progression nightmare so such characters were thrown a bone.

[jdead]

Mapleswitch wrote:

Fantastic... Another "I'm right, you're wrong, I will look up no information to prove that I'm right, you must look up all the information to prove me wrong, because I'm right" thread....

Look under Multiclass in the Core Rulebook. Too hard? I'll simplify this for you:

(page 30) Instead of gaining the abilities granted by the next level in your character's current class, he can instead gain the 1st-level abilities of a new class, adding all of those abilities to his existing ones. This is known as "multiclassing."

I'm not trying to make a point to be right, I'm simply pointing out slight variances in wording that I personally interpret one way because. As a DM I am aware of what letting a little leniency with the rules can cause, but it leads to some interesting conversation when you approach things from another angle because "You're wrong just because". Remember that this is Pathfinder, there are a lot of differences to this from 3.5 that seem a little more unbalanced.

Chemlak wrote:

If only there was something in the Core Rulebook that laid out how it works...

CRB, Classes, Multiclassing wrote:

Note that there are a number of effects and prerequisites that rely on a character's level or Hit Dice. Such effects are always based on the total number of levels or Hit Dice a character possesses, not just those from one class. The exception to this is class abilities, most of which are based on the total number of class levels that a character possesses of that particular class.

And it's wording like this that I'm talking about; it says "most of which" and not all. I'm just saying guys, if we open things up to the possibility of certain meaning, who knows what conclusions or house rules we could walk away with.

If there is a point to be made of mechanics being out of balance, we should be collaborating and not arguing.

[Chess Pwn]

If you want to open up ways to house rule this then I advise you take this out of the RULES forum. But if you want to talk about it by the rules then you'll have to follow the rules.

[Pink Dragon]

Page 31 of the Core Rules:

Note that there are a number of effects and prerequisites that rely on a character’s level or Hit Dice. Such effects are always based on the total number of levels or Hit Dice a character possesses, not just those from one class. The exception to this is class abilities, most of which are based on the total number of class levels that a character possesses of that particular class.

[Kazaan]

Most of which, but not all. That doesn't mean you just pick and choose based on whatever is most convenient for you. It means that there are some that don't follow that pattern, but those exceptions will be clearly and explicitly delineated in the rules.

[Under A Bleeding Sun]

There is a FAQ on this somewhere from several years back. Unless an ability specifically calls out for being based on character level (like the Chevaliers Smite Evil) it is based on class level.

[LazarX]

Marthian wrote:

Alitan wrote:

Unless a class' ability specifically states otherwise (and I can't think of any instances that do, at the moment) references to level are referring to class levels in that class, not character levels.

Some Prestige Classes go by total level rather than Class level.

The Hellknight is one of them

Those are specifically called out in the class description. They are not general rules, but specific ones.