Freehold you will be disappointed too... not for the same reasons I was. I know how much you love fanservice and there isn't any to be found here. No it's just a couple episodes where they portray polygamy as this amazing situation. Well no. Even the apostles of Lord Jesus said during an age when it was not only legal but globally accepted; they said polygamy is a horribly unfair and unequal situation to place women in. So they started the ban on polygamy for good reason.
I feel I should elaborate more on the child soldier disappointment. It isn't new to Gundam to use children as warriors. But this show seems to take it to a whole new level. The whole platoon is child warriors... sticking it to their elders. But every time some adult reacts with horror to the child soldier situation they are downright dismissive of the sorrow. I guess that is the part that rubs me wrong... don't be so dismissive. Let the horror of what these kids have had to endure sink in. People should be horrified by it.
Knowing a couple dozen people in loving, stable polyamorous relationships, I have to say I find this comment very disturbing.
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Sissyl wrote:
Soooo... The women give birth to fewer children, but this is more than compensated for by the ones popped out by the men?
I'm going to presume that you didn't read the link that I provided, because it speaks to this pretty directly:
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Unsurprisingly, the men who acquired lots of wives also produced more children. For each additional spouse, a man could expect about six more kids. Each wife in the relationship could expect to produce an average of one fewer child for every additional wife.
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Childbirth rates are always only counted in births per woman, as far as I can tell. That drops, there are fewer children born.
EDIT: I was going to type a longer response here, but TriOmegaZero covered it much more concisely, in that it's possible for the children-per-woman ratio to drop while still having more overall children born if the total number of women having children increases past a certain threshold.
Soooo... The women give birth to fewer children, but this is more than compensated for by the ones popped out by the men?
No, the women give birth to fewer children individually but there are more women giving birth total.
(One woman giving birth to three children by the same father is less than five women giving birth to one child by the same father.)
If you're in a micro society with only 1 man and an arbitrary number of women, the birth rate will be much lower with strict monogamy. In any reasonable population there will be roughly the same number of men as women, therefore you won't have cases where all the men have 5 wives and thus a higher total birthrate. Instead you compare between one fifth of the men having 5 wives with one child each and all the men having 1 wife with 3 children each.
Polygyny leads to some men not finding wives. The greater degree of polygyny, the larger percentage of men will not have wives. That's why the overall birthrate drops, despite those men who have multiple wives having more children than if they were limited to one.
In some outlying situations with a surplus of women (or a shortage of men, depending on how you look at it) the outcome may vary. That's not likely to be stable though.
Note: This argument relies on the claim that individual women in polygynous societies have less children. Further it wouldn't apply in anything like the same way to modern, more equal, polyamourous relationships.
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thejeff wrote:
If you're in a micro society with only 1 man and an arbitrary number of women, the birth rate will be much lower with strict monogamy. In any reasonable population there will be roughly the same number of men as women, therefore you won't have cases where all the men have 5 wives and thus a higher total birthrate.
This argument is a strawman, in that it's arguing against the idea that polygyny leads to a "higher total birthrate," which is an argument that no one in this thread has made. Rather, the opposing side in this particular debate is arguing against the idea that polygyny necessarily leads to lower total birthrates than monogamy, on a societal level.
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Instead you compare between one fifth of the men having 5 wives with one child each and all the men having 1 wife with 3 children each.
This is a completely arbitrary ratio, set up to create a scenario with less overall children on the side of the polygamists, despite the fact that there's nothing that necessitates this.
Now, to be fair, TOZ's ratio was also arbitrary, but that's because he was showcasing the flaw in Sissyl's declaration that fewer births per woman necessarily means that birthrates have gone down overall.
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Polygyny leads to some men not finding wives. The greater degree of polygyny, the larger percentage of men will not have wives. That's why the overall birthrate drops, despite those men who have multiple wives having more children than if they were limited to one.
Again, you haven't conclusively established that the overall birthrate drops.
Under a polygynous system, some men won't find wives, that's true, but it doesn't necessarily affect the overall birthrate. In a scenario with 20 men and 20 women, if 1 man marries all of the women and has a single child with each of them, that's the same number of children as there would be if each woman marries a different man and subsequently has one child.
The issue of how many men do or do not get married under a polygynous society has comparatively little to do with the overall birthrate. It's not completely unrelated (hence why the average number of children per woman tends to go down in a polygynous marriage), but the more relevant factors are how many women are having children (call that variable X) and how many children they're having (variable Y). Even if one variable goes down, it can be compensated for if the other one goes up.
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In some outlying situations with a surplus of women (or a shortage of men, depending on how you look at it) the outcome may vary. That's not likely to be stable though.
As demonstrated above, one doesn't need a surplus nor shortage of either sex to vary the outcome.
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Note: This argument relies on the claim that individual women in polygynous societies have less children. Further it wouldn't apply in anything like the same way to modern, more equal, polyamourous relationships.
There's no reason why this wouldn't necessarily apply to contemporary polyamorous relationships, since that would depend on the relationship in question.
Again, you haven't conclusively established that the overall birthrate drops.
Under a polygynous system, some men won't find wives, that's true, but it doesn't necessarily affect the overall birthrate. In a scenario with 20 men and 20 women, if 1 man marries all of the women and has a single child with each of them, that's the same number of children as there would be if each woman marries a different man and subsequently has one child.
The issue of how many men do or do not get married under a polygynous society has comparatively little to do with the overall birthrate. It's not completely unrelated (hence why the average number of children per woman tends to go down in a polygynous marriage), but the more relevant factors are how many women are having children (call that variable X) and how many children they're having (variable Y). Even if one variable goes down, it can be compensated for if the other one goes up.
Yes, but the original claim was that with polygyny the number of children per woman drops. Everything since than has been based on that claim. As you stated in your first post on the topic "My understanding is that, in a polygamous (specifically polygynous) relationship, the number of births per woman is reduced."
That's a direct contrast with your 20 men & 20 women scenario. You are correct that if the number of births per woman doesn't drop, the overall birthrate won't and I've put that as a disclaimer in several posts.
Birthrate is "births per women" because there isn't anyone else giving birth. I suppose there could be some compensatory increase in the number of births that women with no co-wives have, but nobody has suggested that. Instead both your earlier post and TOZ's focus on the number of children born to the men in the polygynous relationships, ignoring the relationships that don't exist because more men can't find wives.
In your X & Y equation, we've agreed that Y drops since the women in polygynous relationships have less children each. Why, in this scenario, would X grow?
I've already commented on the obvious exception of a skewed ratio between the sexes. If there are less men than women, polygyny would likely raise the birthrate - X would grow to offset Y, at least until the excess women were matched up.
Is there some direct logic I'm missing here or are you just saying that it's theoretically possible that more women would remain unmarried in a monogamous society? Or that those women in monogamous relationships in a polygynous society would have more children than they would in a monogamous society? As far as I can tell, those are the only ways to offset the women in polygynous relationships having less children on average.
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thejeff wrote:
Yes, but the original claim was that with polygyny the number of children per woman drops. Everything since than has been based on that claim.
This is flat-out false.
The original claim was that it "reduces childbirth." At no point does Sissyl say anything about it being "per woman."
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As you stated in your first post on the topic "My understanding is that, in a polygamous (specifically polygynous) relationship, the number of births per woman is reduced."
Again, you're moving the goalposts. Sissyl's original claim was an unnuanced statement that it reduces childbirth; with no qualifier or explanation, that statement seemed to be talking about overall birthrates. Hence, I pointed out that this was only true with regard to number of children per individual women, rather than the number of children born overall.
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That's a direct contrast with your 20 men & 20 women scenario.
That's because that scenario was meant to rebut your idea that polygyny necessarily reduces the overall number of children born. All of my posts on this topic have been consistent in pointing out that that assertion is baseless.
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You are correct that if the number of births per woman doesn't drop, the overall birthrate won't and I've put that as a disclaimer in several posts.
But you've failed to admit that, even if the number of births per woman goes down, if this is counterbalanced by the total number of women giving birth going up then the overall number of childbirths need not be necessarily reduced.
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Birthrate is "births per women" because there isn't anyone else giving birth.
You've been holding that the salient statistic is the number of children per individual woman. I'm pointing out that the more germane statistic is the total number of live births in a given population...which is the actual definition of "birthrate."
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I suppose there could be some compensatory increase in the number of births that women with no co-wives have, but nobody has suggested that. Instead both your earlier post and TOZ's focus on the number of children born to the men in the polygynous relationships, ignoring the relationships that don't exist because more men can't find wives.
You're misunderstanding the point; the greater number of children for men in polygynous relationships is meant to be a contrast to the lower number of children per women in polygynous relationships. The reason that contrast is worth pointing out is that it rebuts the idea that overall birthrates are falling, and therefore puts the lie to the idea that polygamy "reduces childbirth." The reason for that is that the total number of women having children goes up as a compensatory factor.
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In your X & Y equation, we've agreed that Y drops since the women in polygynous relationships have less children each. Why, in this scenario, would X grow?
You're introducing a sly double-standard here, in calling the increase in the X variable into question while maintaining that the decrease in the Y scenario will be a given. I didn't "agree" to that latter supposition, but rather noted that it was the case in the article I linked to several posts ago, alongside the notation that the X variable had also increased (by way of the article pointing out that, for a man, one additional spouse meant an average of six more children).
The reason the X variable increases is presumably the same underlying reason that the Y variable decreases; we can speculate as to what that reason (or combination of reasons) are, but that's largely immaterial, since those results have already been observed.
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I've already commented on the obvious exception of a skewed ratio between the sexes. If there are less men than women, polygyny would likely raise the birthrate - X would grow to offset Y, at least until the excess women were matched up.
Which isn't really relevant to the conversation, since everyone else is talking about a scenario predicated on there being no such skewed ratio between men and women available.
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Is there some direct logic I'm missing here or are you just saying that it's theoretically possible that more women would remain unmarried in a monogamous society? Or that those women in monogamous relationships in a polygynous society would have more children than they would in a monogamous society? As far as I can tell, those are the only ways to offset the women in polygynous relationships having less children on average.
You seem to be missing the point that the rate of children born to individual women in polygynous marriages doesn't happen in isolation; it happens largely because more women are having children overall within said marriage. Hence the notation before about why men who have an additional wife will have, on average, more than one additional child.
To be fair, that's giving us results without going very deeply into why that's the case, but that doesn't in-and-of itself call those results into question. My presumption would be that, since fewer men in a polygynous society get married (as you've noted), the social impetus to get married - and thus overall marriage rates (and, correspondingly, the rate of women who have children) - are higher in such a society.
Friends, for good or ill, we do not live in a poly society. While some may experiment with it as a lifestyle(or even say they're bringing it back), our society is a monogamous one. Any guesstimates with respect to what such a life could be like are just that. It is not worth detailing a thread in a different topic about. I'm not saying the phrase should never be mentioned again, just that deep conversation on it is what we have PMs for.
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Freehold DM wrote:
Friends, for good or ill, we do not live in a poly society. While some may experiment with it as a lifestyle(or even say they're bringing it back), our society is a monogamous one. Any guesstimates with respect to what such a life could be like are just that. It is not worth detailing a thread in a different topic about. I'm not saying the phrase should never be mentioned again, just that deep conversation on it is what we have PMs for.
Freehold makes a good point, especially since Paizo has a tendency to lock threads that go too far off-topic, and I'd hate to see that happen here.
To that end, I'll instead ask: since this cour is about to end, and since I haven't been watching most of the new stuff that's come out in the last three months (since I prefer to watch shows at my own pace, rather than one episode per week), what are some good anime from the last cour that I should look into? I've already queued Erased, but what else?
(Notwithstanding KonoSuba, Utawarerumono: The False Faces, and Gate, which I've been watching despite the enforced down-time.)
Friends, for good or ill, we do not live in a poly society. While some may experiment with it as a lifestyle(or even say they're bringing it back), our society is a monogamous one. Any guesstimates with respect to what such a life could be like are just that. It is not worth detailing a thread in a different topic about. I'm not saying the phrase should never be mentioned again, just that deep conversation on it is what we have PMs for.
Freehold makes a good point, especially since Paizo has a tendency to lock threads that go too far off-topic, and I'd hate to see that happen here.
Your logic still mystifies me, but I'll try again to let it go. I can't promise not to jump back in if someone else posts though:)
Friends, for good or ill, we do not live in a poly society. While some may experiment with it as a lifestyle(or even say they're bringing it back), our society is a monogamous one. Any guesstimates with respect to what such a life could be like are just that. It is not worth detailing a thread in a different topic about. I'm not saying the phrase should never be mentioned again, just that deep conversation on it is what we have PMs for.
Freehold makes a good point, especially since Paizo has a tendency to lock threads that go too far off-topic, and I'd hate to see that happen here.
To that end, I'll instead ask: since this cour is about to end, and since I haven't been watching most of the new stuff that's come out in the last three months (since I prefer to watch shows at my own pace, rather than one episode per week), what are some good anime from the last cour that I should look into? I've already queued Erased, but what else?
(Notwithstanding KonoSuba, Utawarerumono: The False Faces, and Gate, which I've been watching despite the enforced down-time.)
Other than the ones you've mentioned I've been watching
Grimgar of Fantasy and Ash which is slow but is pretty good.
Dagashi Kashi is ..oddly engaging
Nurse Witch Komugi-chan R is (at least I think) a straight up parody of the genre. It's a little grating but has some genuinely funny moments.
Myriad Colors of the Phantom World I found to be Okay if a bit samey
To that end, I'll instead ask: since this cour is about to end, and since I haven't been watching most of the new stuff that's come out in the last three months (since I prefer to watch shows at my own pace, rather than one episode per week), what are some good anime from the last cour that I should look into? I've already queued Erased, but what else?
(Notwithstanding KonoSuba, Utawarerumono: The False Faces, and Gate, which I've been watching despite the enforced down-time.)
Well, the new PreCure started this cour. For the uninitiated, Pretty Cure (abbreviated as PreCure) is more or less a magical girl franchise given the same treatment as Kamen Rider and Super Sentai. And I mean the exact same treatment. Every PreCure series is somewhere from 48 to 52 episodes long, has at least two movies during its run (including a crossover movie with the previous series), and there usually isn't more than a month between the end of one series and the beginning of the next (to make sure that the ride never ends). Despite being aimed and marketed towards elementary school girls, PreCure consistently has some of the best over-the-top fight choreography I have ever seen in anime. Like its partner shows (and when I say partner shows, I mean PreCure airs right after Super Sentai and Kamen Rider on TV Asahi's Sunday morning block), PreCure is full of crazy, overdramatic villains who give dumb-sounding monologues about despair while dressed in enormous capes. If you like the idea of two-to-five middle school girls teaming up to punch giant monsters to death with moves from out of a battle-type shounen manga, you could do a lot worse than PreCure.
This year's series, Maho Tsukai PreCure, takes the series back to its roots with just two Cures: an inept magician and a mundane girl who turns out to have staggering magical potential. The two transform into magicians of legend to hunt down magical gems of untold power, and to prevent an evil organization from claiming the gems first.
I'm actually really enjoying the new PreCure. The character dynamic is very good this time around, not just with the main characters but also with the other girls taking remedial lessons.
And I do like that they returned to the Transformation requires both girls and the Fairy (Teddy Bear, not the baby Fairy)
Plus the bits they have shown of the new All Stars film looks fun. Clearly a Musical from what I've seen and it's always great to see the Magical Girl Army in action
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Thanks to everyone who's suggested series so far!
On a differing note, how about a game of Lost in Translation. This is where we've noticed jokes, idioms, or other particularities in the original Japanese dialogue that weren't translated (either in the dub or the sub).
(This isn't my saying that the translators did a bad job; a lot of the time, these are things that simply don't translate into English very well, and the translators made the decision that doing so would have been more trouble than it's worth.)
I'll start off with two (one of which I've mentioned previously):
KonoSuba:
Spoiler:
Kazuma frequently calls Aqua a "useless goddess," as the English subtitles translate it; that's accurate, but doesn't make it clear that he's making a pun. What he's actually calling her is "damegami." This is a portmanteau of the words "dame" ("no good/useless/hopeless") and "megami" ("goddess/female deity").
Overlord:
Spoiler:
Shalltear frequently ends her sentences with "arinsu." The contemporary use of this word - a dialect of "arimasu" (the verb "to be," but only for inanimate objects) that was initially used by the prostitutes of Yoshiwara in Edo (old Tokyo) - indicates that the speaker is a lascivious or sexually hedonistic woman. Shalltear's use of it is a way of giving us insight into her character via her speech pattern.
What other subtle nuances in an anime are you aware of that have passed beneath a translation's radar?
In the episode "A Goddess Comes to Japan" Tessa mentions to Sagara's classmates that she 'is in the water business', which is true, being a submarine commander. Except that in Japan 'water business' is supposedly a slang term for prostitution.
More generally, I'm not up on Japanese language or culture to catch much of this, but it's always interesting to watch something both subbed and dubbed and see how different the translations often are.
Makes you aware how much both of them must be changed from the original and how much you're missing.
More generally, I'm not up on Japanese language or culture to catch much of this, but it's always interesting to watch something both subbed and dubbed and see how different the translations often are.
Makes you aware how much both of them must be changed from the original and how much you're missing.
Sometimes one does the scene better than the other, and it isn't always the one you are a fan of.
Sub does the line better in.....Dagashi Kashi. The scene in the 'blind taste test' episode where Yo walks in on his son. The dub just has a random panic line, the in the sub he says something along the lines of "I didn't realize you and Hotaru were so close already"
Spoiler:
The whole scene looks like it is out of an S&M fantasy, especially the part where a blindfolded and tied up Hotaru demands "Now stick it in my mouth!" Bonus points for the candy being rather....phallic.
Dub does the line better in the mail slot scene in......Future Diary. The sub I saw Yuno merely says goodnight twice. In the dub our Yandere to end all Yanderes says "Goodnight Sweetie" followed by "See you in your dreams." which I think elevates the creepy factor several times over.
Finished watching Girls und Panzer because of Shirobako (same director). I found it surprisingly fun. I wasn't sure about it because of it's ridiculous premise- a high school girls WW2 tank fighting club but they way they so straightfaced played that concept really sold it for me. It's the type of quirky anime they'd make in Shirobako. Available subtitled on Crunchyroll and Hulu.
Garupan is a fantastic example of a quote I've encountered a few different places: "Oftentimes, 'turn your brain off' is a poorly-worded plea to approach a work on its own terms." The series establishes its terms in the title alone: Girls and tanks. If you like either of those, you're probably in for a good time. Once you know the terms, you realize that Garupan isn't a Cute Girls Doing Cute Things that happens to use tanks as a backdrop; it's a show about tank combat whose cast happens to be made up entirely of cute girls. I know people who started watching this show expecting tank-based K-On!, only to be surprised that after the St. Gloriana fight, there were very few breaks from tank-combat, and almost none of those breaks lasted an entire episode. But really, why should it be a surprise? The core conceit of the series is that Sensha-Dou is something that every important character takes extremely seriously. Even Mako, who can barely manage to drag herself out of bed every morning, starts getting serious once she's behind the wheel.
Hmm..supposedly Miyazaki has said that there was no intention to deliberately link anything in Spirited away to anything but a growing up story. What that article appears to be basing itself on is a review by a japanese film critic after the premire of the movie in Japan. In a interview for the Japanese version of Premier magazine he (Miyazaki) comments that he based the look for the bathhouse on the red-light district in his hometown but that's all the comments that he ever made to that effect.
I need to finish Parasyte... but I'm getting into Overlord (three episodes in out of 13) now that GATE is done, so it shouldn't be much longer. Maybe once Hai to Gensou no Grimgar is over, perhaps (though I understand there's some kind of special OAV for it as well that I'll have to watch). And speaking of Grimgar...
Ranta, the Dark Knight, really surprised me at the end of episode 12. But in retrospect, I really shouldn't have been. He's always been about grandstanding, and that's exactly what he's doing, even if it is in heroic fashion.
Episode 11 of Ajin: Demi-Human was phenomenal! My respect for Satou has increased immensely (and it was fairly high to begin with). Still not sure what Kei's deal is, but his refusal to act is causing me to really dislike him. I get testing what your black ghost's abilities and limitations are, but I guess it goes back to what his sister said earlier on about him being analytical and cruel as the reason why she hates him.
Dragon Ball Super... looking forward to seeing Vegeta throw down with other universe's Saiyan. Hit, the assassin, reminds me of Cell. Which may be intentional, since Frost was basically that universe's version of Frieza (but with better PR).
Fairy Tail... now that the Zero arc is over, we're starting to get into what's currently going on in the manga. Natsu's return was interesting, but I'm looking forward to seeing how the others have changed (especially Grey and Erza) in the year that has passed.
GATE.... didn't like how everything was tied up neatly in the last episode, but other than that it was a good episode.
Didn't realize that Gundam: Thunderbolt was only going to be 4 episodes. Once I discovered this, I waited for the other three episodes to come out, but so far I haven't watched them yet.
Got into Nanatsu no Taizai (The Seven Deadly Sins). The only character I like is the Serpant of Envy, Diane. Her jealous fits over Meliodas crack me up. And her Creation ability is just awesome.
Gave up on the Utawarerumono series... it's really slow development killed any interest I held in it.
Still shocked about getting 2 sequels to FLCL. Toonami really surprised me with that announcement.
Also looking at starting Norn9, but I'd like to get some feelings about that from those who may have seen it before I watch.
Got into Nanatsu no Taizai (The Seven Deadly Sins). The only character I like is the Serpant of Envy, Diane. Her jealous fits over Meliodas crack me up. And her Creation ability is just awesome.
How far are you into Seven Deadly Sins? I found the further into the show (especially the second season) the characters become much more interesting. Diane and King seem to get the characterization rather heavily toward the end of the second half...major feels on that one.
Ban bores me in the way that Deadpool does. Meliodas brings nothing new to the table as far as protagonists go. King is interesting enough, but I really dig Diane. I want to see the Lion's Sin of Pride... but he's supposed to be dead if I remember correctly.
Can't say a whole lot about Gowther just yet, as he's just been introduced.
Ban bores me in the way that Deadpool does. Meliodas brings nothing new to the table as far as protagonists go. King is interesting enough, but I really dig Diane. I want to see the Lion's Sin of Pride... but he's supposed to be dead if I remember correctly.
Can't say a whole lot about Gowther just yet, as he's just been introduced.
Gowther...is freaking creepy. Pride will, I think, show up in the upcoming season that is supposed to come out this summer. Of the ones revealed to date I would have to agree that Ban and Meliodas are the least interesting. Meliodas is too...standard. Ban has an interesting potential especially since he is tied in with King, but it hasn't really executed well to date. You don't really get a chance to know much about Gluttony before the end of the current run so that's hard to say.
Finished The Lie You Told in April. My god I loved it, but I could not watch more than a few episodes at a time. The second half made me cry way too consistently.
Finished The Lie You Told in April. My god I loved it, but I could not watch more than a few episodes at a time. The second half made me cry way too consistently.
I plan on watching that myself when the TV hiatus starts. There's just too many shows (coupled with a bad work schedule) to watch things with my wife. Although I might watch that one alone.
Didn't realize that Gundam: Thunderbolt was only going to be 4 episodes. Once I discovered this, I waited for the other three episodes to come out, but so far I haven't watched them yet.
