I'm surprised how difficult it seems for some anime fans to see why fanservice might be really objectionable to women. Does sex sell? Absolutely. Will fanservice ever totally disappear? No more than racism, homophobia, or boy bands will completely disappear.
But that doesn't mean we throw up our hands, and say "Oh f#@& it, bring back the Backstreet Boys!" Because here's the thing: fanservice creates a very subtle but very real effect on women and especially girls. You can say 'Well if a girl doesn't like fanservice, there are other things to watch,' but the fact is that girls will end up watching some of it anyway. Aranna watches fanservice because some fanservicey shows have other redeeming qualities; other girls and women get peer pressured or 'I want to watch what my male friends, bf, husband, big brother, or daddy are watching!' into watching animes with fanservice. (As has been pointed out, an R rating is no real obstacle for a determined child or teen.)
And what's the effect of a girl and even a woman watching fanservice? A small but insistent voice in the back of her head telling her 'You only have small-to-regular boobs, you ain't nothing!' 'Your ankles are bigger than your wrists, you ain't nothing!' 'Your waist is too big for a man to wrap his hands completely around, you ain't nothing!' And so on. It's like how stereotypes like 'black people are stupid' and 'gay people are sex-obsessed perverts' create a kind of background mental chatter. Consciously, a person knows that it's absurd and irrational; but people aren't rational. That mental chatter is enough to undercut or even crush many people's self-respect, which results in all sorts of issues.
I'm not saying that fanservice is the worst thing since Hitler, or that it's not a byproduct of human nature. I'm saying that the world will be a better place when more anime (and other entertainment) learns what 'everything in moderation' means.
An odd conundrum- people are stupid, let's do the thinking for them vs. requiring (perhaps without requesting- maybe that's a part of the problem?) people rise above a certain level of absurdity. I know which one I prefer.
Nice post Tequila, really nailed it IMO.
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Sooo... rating systems do not work because children get the stuff anyway. What then must we as responsible adults do to protect children (and women) from seeing damaging things like fanservice?
If you have a better alternative than making it all seriously illegal in mind, then please say. Because, from your argumentation, it seems to me that if ANY of it exists, including old stuff, the "determined children" WILL get hold of it and be damaged in various ways from the experience. This will also hurt women.
Personally I feel all adults should be allowed to choose what they want to see, so long as it's made consensually. Most anime would fall into this category, given that variously drawn computer pixels usually do not withhold consent. Indeed, someone who should NOT be allowed to see whatever they chose is someone treated as a child.
The way to go about it is instead to work to spread awareness of those anime that are not fanservice-y.
Thank you Tequila Sunrise. Very well said.
See you boys are defending fan service based on "choice". But are blatantly negative stereotypes about ANY group "Ok to choose" as you seem to be saying? Would there even be any discussion about how bad a show using negative black stereotypes for example would be publicly regarded? No instead you say "Oh well we can't solve this so instead lets enjoy it and even praise it."
....
Way to completely miss what people are saying and instead only hearing what you want to hear.
I don't recall anyone saying "fanservice is bad and must be completely eradicated from the face of the planet". Instead, they would like it dealt out in moderation.
Some shows are excessive in their amount of fanservice for no reason other than fanservice. Some shows are ruined or held to lesser esteem because of their fanservice.
For example, I thoroughly enjoyed watching Highschool of the Dead, but there was an incredible amount of unnecessary fanservice in the show that, I think, holds it back. Or a show like Kenichi: Historys Strongest Disciple; every girl in the show (save 2, and I', not counting the 10 year old sister), has thin waists and each breast is larger than the girls head at minimum. For a show that focuses heavily on martial arts, this is an oddity and it bothers me when watching it.
I'm not saying a show that is all about the fanservice like, say, Girls Bravo, shouldn't exist, but that there should be more shows that tone down the unnecessary fanservice. I think shows from all ranges of the spectrum should exist, but I also think that there is a growing tendency to include unnecessary or ridiculous fanservice in a show.
Unnecessary fanservice is, I think, the key here though. There are so many shows that include fanservice for no reason other than fanservice. I' not saying this is bad, but some of it is really poorly thought out and ruins parts of the show. I look at someone like Mikumo Kushinada from the Kenichi manga and I just shake my head at the completely ridiculous character design.
Considering her style of martial arts focuses heavily on grapping and throwing people and using their joints and energy against them, her large breasts are a detriment to her fighting style.
It's odd that Western comics get lots of flak and criticisms over the unrealistic portrayal of women in comic books, yet those same people don't voice criticisms over the way women are portrayed in manga.
Way to completely miss what people are saying and instead only hearing what you want to hear.Way to be completely ironic in describing yourself when you attempt to describe someone else.
Seriously, when people make categorical statements about how fan-service is undeniably bad...
Fan service reduces us to sex toys in the eyes of boysBecause here's the thing: fanservice creates a very subtle but very real effect on women and especially girls....then saying that they "want to stamp it out of existence" may be hyperbole, but it's hyperbole that's not at all unwarranted.
I don't recall anyone saying "fanservice is bad and must be completely eradicated from the face of the planet". Instead, they would like it dealt out in moderation.The idea of "we don't want it gone, we just want it in moderation" is a highly disingenuous statement. That's because there's no definition for what "in moderation" constitutes, let alone how you'd quantify (or enforce) opinions like "when it's unnecessary" or "when it's excessive."
Given the utter uselessness of those statements as goals, it's kind of hard to take them seriously.
You find that there's too much fan-service in a given show? Okay...why should your opinion be the baseline that's drawn from with regards to anime? Why should fan-service have to have a reason for being included beyond fan-service for its own sake? How do you prove that's something's there for more than "just it's own sake"?
It's fine to have opinions on these questions; what's not fine is the implication that the people who make/enjoy things that you don't like need to have public pressure brought on them until they're too ashamed to make/consume the things that you don't like anymore.
What they said is not wrong, portraying women as objects of a sexual nature does indeed reduce them to sexual objects. However, women do this to themselves when they dress or act sexy; they attempt to put themselves into a position in their targets mind to induce sexual feelings.
However, repeated and gratuitous fanservice is a bad thing. It can give younger minds a demented sort of perception on the world and a woman's place in it. Sometimes the objectification of women is very subtle.
Look at Fairy Tail, for example. If you pay attention, nearly every girl in Fairy Tail is built the exact same way. Long, thin legs, tiny waist, large breasts, thin wrists. The only time this isn't the case is if the character is not supposed to be designed that way, for example, if they are a young girl, or if they are supposed to have a flat chest in order to make jokes about everyone else having large breasts. Honoka, from the Kenichi anime is a good example of this; she's a younger sister (roughly 10-12 years old) so is specifically designed to look like a child, and makes frequent comments about different girls having large breasts, specifically, Miu, whom she calls "Big Boobs". Another girl is Kisara Nanjo, an antagonist who has a rivalry with Miu and calls Miu "Dairy Cow" while Kisara herself is small chested.
In the above, Fairy Tail, you have women who are all drawn in exactly the same way, almost without variance. Look at this picture of 5 of the most re-occurring girls in the first few seasons of Fairy Tail. Erza, and Lucy, especially are the two female leads and both fit Hiro Mashima's 'normal' for girls in his work, but then there is also Juvia, another girl who frequently appears on the show, is also of Hiro's norm. Then you have the Wendy, who, as a child, is drawn to different expectations, and then, finally, Levy. Levy is, perhaps, the one girl in Fairy Tail who breaks Hiro's normal tendency when drawing women.
Erza, Lucy, Mira, Juvia, Lisanna, Cana, etc. all the girls have large breasts, tiny waists, long legs and thin arms. Levy is just like all of the other girls, except she has smaller breasts than the others.
So, when you look at how the adults of Fairy Tail line up, you get the picture that, in the world of Fairy Tail, if you aren't at least a D cup or larger, you're an oddity.
Fairy Tail is a show that isn't Rater R, and would appear be readily available to watchers 10 years old and up. Stop and think about how popular Fairy Tail is, and how it would appear to younger audiences when the majority of all the females have a certain portrayal to them. Now stop and look at all of the other anime in the same vein and you'll see a similar occurrence.
It's a very subtle form of fanservice, in that all women are of a certain body build, including large breasts. Nearly all of the women also wear tank tops (or something equally revealing of cleavage) and skirts (to show the legs). So it reinforces the mindset of how a girl must appear, and how reinforces in boys, the desireable aspects of a female.
However, as someone raising children, I would have to point out a show like Fairy Tail as one of the anime's I would encourage children to watch, because of it's focus on friendship, teamwork, and it's abundance of strong female protagonists. I just wish Hiro didn't also have the strong female protagonists all run around in skirts with their cleavage showing or other tantalizing clothing.
I will repeat again, I don't think Fanservice is bad, but I think there is a growing tendency towards an excess of Fanservice. I would vastly perfer a more moderate tendency towards fanservice. Less Highschool of the Dead and more Fairy Tail (though even Fairy Tail has certain faults).
By the way, has anyone else read the entirety of the Rave Master manga?
Considering the similarities of characters from Rave Master and Fairy Tail, I have to wonder if, maybe, the world of Fairy Tail is just another 'dream world' created by Elie.
Thank you Tequila Sunrise. Very well said.
See you boys are defending fan service based on "choice". But are blatantly negative stereotypes about ANY group "Ok to choose" as you seem to be saying? Would there even be any discussion about how bad a show using negative black stereotypes for example would be publicly regarded? No instead you say "Oh well we can't solve this so instead lets enjoy it and even praise it."
One of the first media experiences for both audio (radio) and visiual (television) that portrayed black people as an independent race- Amos and Andy (and its contemporaries that may or may not have happened in the same world/universe)- was unfortunately very racist and showed people in blackface regularly. However, I would be remiss to ignore the important sociological aspects that were inherent in the show- these were black people on their own living in their own communities, with their own jobs, and no white people in sight. No maids/butlers or anything of the sort. It is very much a catch 22. Someone I love dearly loves the shows to the point she has an old time radio app and original shows on formats as outdated as reel to reel. We debate the racist nature of the shows vs. their positive sides (the surface of which I argue has to be scraped so deeply one draws blood to find) regularly.
What they said is not wrong, portraying women as objects of a sexual nature does indeed reduce them to sexual objects.No, it doesn't. A sexualized depiction of a woman in a work of fiction does not reduce the intrinsic value or dignity of women in the real world. Certainly, some people may feel that way, but that's just an opinion that has no objective weight behind it.
Now, one could say that the character in a given work of fiction has been reduced to nothing but a sexual object, but so what? That has no impact on any real people, and so does not warrant any particular moral indignation.
However, women do this to themselves when they dress or act sexy; they attempt to put themselves into a position in their targets mind to induce sexual feelings.I disagree here as well - this conflates sexual objectification with sexual desirability. The two are not the same thing.
However, repeated and gratuitous fanservice is a bad thing. It can give younger minds a demented sort of perception on the world and a woman's place in it. Sometimes the objectification of women is very subtle.See my previous post about this; the fact that something might make a child internalize a bad idea is not legitimate disincentive to create, or consume, said thing. Questions of subtlety or obviousness are irrelevant here. "Won't someone think of the children?" isn't an objection that deserves to be taken seriously.
(I'm omitting any references to Fairy Tail simply because I haven't seen it yet, and I don't like to talk about things I'm unfamiliar with. Also, spoilers.)
I would vastly perfer a more moderate tendency towards fanservice.And I wouldn't prefer such a thing. But would you support leveraging public shame and reprobation against those who don't want less fan-service?
It is in the works of fiction, where our fantasies bloom. The sexualized depiction of women in a work of fiction, repeated over many years, especially during the developing years of the child or teenagers core personality, will reinforce a mentality of the individual to view women in a sexual nature.
The repeated exposure of kids to shows that, subtly or not, portray women as sexual objects will reinforce, in their minds, a woman's place as a sexual object. It does not matter if the show is of a fictitious nature or not, what matters is the exposure to the media.
It's no different than the dehumanization of an enemy country to encourage the peoples' willingness to kill the enemy. Raising people to think that those not of a certain religion aren't human and are, therefore, okay to kill, is an extreme example of this.
Raising a child around media that depicts women in skimpy clothing, frequently performing sexual acts and a subservience to men, will build a subconscious expectation of real-life women to imitate them.
It's no different than when people were raised knowing that Gays were bad, or that Blacks were nothing more than slaves and weren't human. Most didn't have, really, any interaction with such people, yet still had that belief, because it was taught at a young age.
If you raise people to think that gratuitous fanservice and the objectification of women in shows like Kill la Kill is okay, then in real life, they will think it's okay as well.
It's really telling to me, as a person, that you seem to think moderation of fanservice is a bad thing, and that, instead, you would rather there be more of it. The implication I draw from this, is you already view women as objects, and that's why it doesn't bother you.
Sooo... rating systems do not work because children get the stuff anyway. What then must we as responsible adults do to protect children (and women) from seeing damaging things like fanservice?
If you have a better alternative than making it all seriously illegal in mind, then please say. Because, from your argumentation, it seems to me that if ANY of it exists, including old stuff, the "determined children" WILL get hold of it and be damaged in various ways from the experience. This will also hurt women.
Personally I feel all adults should be allowed to choose what they want to see, so long as it's made consensually. Most anime would fall into this category, given that variously drawn computer pixels usually do not withhold consent. Indeed, someone who should NOT be allowed to see whatever they chose is someone treated as a child.
The way to go about it is instead to work to spread awareness of those anime that are not fanservice-y.
Well said.
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It's really telling to me, as a person, that you seem to think moderation of fanservice is a bad thing, and that, instead, you would rather there be more of it. The implication I draw from this, is you already view women as objects, and that's why it doesn't bother you.
Maybe you can offer an example of what would be a more moderate approach to fanservice would be? The moderation espoused here sounds a lot like elimination from where I'm standing. Moreover, enjoyment of any titillating material is being aligned with the shaming I feared earlier.
Freehold DM brings up a good point here: Tels' assertion that not wanting to restrict fan-service implies that I think of actual women like objects is a prime example of cultural shaming. It's the old "you like something I find to be bad - therefore, you must be a bad person," message all over again.It's really telling to me, as a person, that you seem to think moderation of fanservice is a bad thing, and that, instead, you would rather there be more of it. The implication I draw from this, is you already view women as objects, and that's why it doesn't bother you.Maybe you can offer an example of what would be a more moderate approach to fanservice would be? The moderation espoused here sounds a lot like elimination from where I'm standing. Moreover, enjoyment of any titillating material is being aligned with the shaming I feared earlier.
indeed, thus is my greatest fear. I point out again that positive examples of sexuality have yet to be shown, even in theory.
All i see needed is the ability to separate reality from fantasy. I doubt saying so will make me popular with certain camps however. =/
EDIT: Mostly, i'm just hoping to see the thread get back to people suggesting anime they watched and liked, which was my favorite part of this thread.
The entire Fate series. (Fate/Stay Night, Fate Zero, Unlimited Blade Works.) Can't wait for next season.
I've really enjoyed those as well. One of the ones i made a point to buy for my collection.
All i see needed is the ability to separate reality from fantasy. I doubt saying so will make me popular with certain camps however. =/Something often lacking in children.
Also could be said just as much about old racist cartoons and such.
Not sure which ones you refer to in general, but i watched more then my share growing up and as an adult still managed to somehow(apparently miraculously?) not become a racist.
on the topic of Fanservice
were do things like spontainious BL scenes, cute boys in girl's clothing, or sparkling young men in swimwear fall. Do those not count as Fanservice?
or something like Hanagai with it's Gundam pron
It's really telling to me, as a person, that you seem to think moderation of fanservice is a bad thing, and that, instead, you would rather there be more of it. The implication I draw from this, is you already view women as objects, and that's why it doesn't bother you.Maybe you can offer an example of what would be a more moderate approach to fanservice would be? The moderation espoused here sounds a lot like elimination from where I'm standing. Moreover, enjoyment of any titillating material is being aligned with the shaming I feared earlier.
Did I not say, "More Fairy Taill, less Highschool of the Dead"? I'm pretty sure I did.
Fairy Tail does have fanservice in it, but it's not nearly as bad as a show like Highschool of the Dead, or Kill la Kill. I would much prefer anime, in general to have more of a Fairy Tail feel to it, than Highschool of the Dead, or Girls Bravo.
My biggest issue is that the more anime I watch, and manga I read, the more I see a startling tendency towards gratuitous fanservice. I mean, I love the Kenichi anime and love the Kenichi manga, but there is some stuff in it that annoys me to no end.
This fanservice here, is not necessary to tell the story. It serves no purpose in the story, not really, except to tantalize the reader.
Another show that I think does fanservice well is Kaze no Stigma. There in, you see a few panty shots, but that's because you have girl fighting demons and monsters while wearing a skirt. It's inevitable, but it's not really sexual. There's a few scenes where they include stuff for the benefit of the reader, like a scene in which Ayanno is showering (but you don't see anything) and getting dressed to go on an outing with Kazuma, and she moves around her bedroom dressed in her bra and panties, deciding which of her identical outfits she's going to wear (poking fun at the fact she wears the same exact outfit for 90% of the show).
Kaze no Stigma is a show for adult teens, and has a mature plotline. Yet it doesn't need fanservice to draw people in, however, this is minor fanservice here and there.
Despite my preference for Fairy Tail to include a larger selection of body types for the females, I feel Fairy Tail does fanservice pretty well. The females in Fairy Tail are strong, and dynamic characters who show good emotional growth and prove women can stand with the boys, but they don't have to forgo their femininity to do so.
While I don't particularly care for the show and I never watched the entire thing, I felt that fanservice in Naruto was handled well. Again, the show had a plethora of strong, independent women who were capable of standing on their own without also sacrificing their femininity.
I don't think people who enjoy fanservice should be shamed either. Enjoying fanservice is not a bad thing, just as sex or masturbation is not a bad thing. I would just prefer that there was less overwhelming fanservice in certain shows. I don't want fanservice eliminated, however, because it's not healthy to be ashamed of sex or ashamed of desires. That leads to a culture of repression and sex crimes.
to be fair in the matter with Shiguri, she had prouven by that point that anything she gets her hands on becomes a weapon. It did kind of make sense for the bad guys not to take any chances. I mean, she had already escaped a dozen times by that point. Had she been willing to kill people she'd have been long gone.
that said, she could have put something on after escaping, yet again, there really was no need for her to stay naked once she was free and she did have plenty of opportunity to steal clothing from people she'd beat, personally I think she should have at leat stolen some pants, even if her general personality is of the sort that doesn't give a damn about things like that
Well I've been totally engrossed in 12 Kingdoms, binge watching it. But I feel like it's hitting a little lull around episode 14-15. Losing some of the mystery.
I'm gonna take a break and try Moribito.
sometimes it's amazing how a series can turn on you.
People have kept telling me to watch Cardfight Vanguard, so I finally got around to it.
It's seemed like it was basically Yugioh, only without the supernatural stuff. So that pretty much makes it people playing card games at each other.
Was tempted to give up on it, but remembered my experiences watching Reborn. That started slow and silly then became awesome action series.
like Reborn the shows starts to turn around after about 20 episodes or so.
I'm pretty deep into it and and it turns out the series is Anti-Yugioh.
Instead of winning every match our main character has been getting his butt handed to him on a regular basis. Eventually the "heart of the Cards" trop kicked in and what happens?
like serious gloating, evil overloard laugh, Evil.
he just finished his fall from grace by switching from a Paladin deck to an Anti-Paladin deck.
I can kind of see now why people got so into it. It's still pretty cliched "30 minute commercial" show but it's interesting waching what is happening to this kid. I've no doubt he's going to turn it around and recover, providing a good moral lesson for all the viewers, but in the mean time it's gotten fairly captivating.
I would just prefer that there was less overwhelming fanservice in certain shows.How do you quantify "less overwhelming"? How do you determine that your quantification of that term is the optimal one for the goals you're trying to achieve, rather than someone else's? How do you determine what those "certain" shows are, and how is that determination superior to the determinations that others make?
There are no answers to these questions, or at least none that aren't a purely arbitrary opinion. Hence why the whole "I don't want to eliminate fan-service, I just want to reduce it (to the size where I can drown it in the bathtub)" argument strikes me as a sop - it's so utterly imprecise that it can't hold as even the flimsiest baseline for promoting a change in cultural attitudes.
Being able to quantify something, or not, does not determine the validity of an argument or opinion.
Because people couldn't quantify that the US should be "less racist" do you think, then, that racial segregation should still be a thing? Should black people ride at the back of the bus, and eat at separate restaurants and attend separate schools?
You seem to imply that if I can't quantify exactly how much fanservice should be in a show, that I'm not allowed to desire there be less fanservice, and in fact, that there should be more fanservice.
Have you even seen any of these shows I've mentioned? Highschool of the Dead, Girls Bravo and Kill la Kill, specifically. Try giving them a watch and then see if you can keep to your argument about "what qualifies overwhelming fanservice?"
Fact of the matter is, some shows take fanservice too far. Some shows don't. However, this has been a growing tendency in anime to include more and more fanservice for no reason other than fanservice.
Let me state again, undeniably clearly so you can't possibly misinterpret what I'm saying.
Did that come across clearly? I hope so, because if it didn't, then you need professional help. I don't want fanservice removed, but I would greatly appreciate it if every damned anime I watch didn't have a growing trend towards panty shots and scantily clad girls running around or even full on pseudo-nudity and borderline animated porn.
When I watch an anime about surviving in a zombie apocalypse, I expect to see an anime about that scenario, but I don't expect to see some girls breast flap around so quickly they are moving at super-sonic speeds.
*Warning, Link is Not Safe For Work, though it is on YouTube*
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You draw a parallel here between racism and fanservice. You say that you don't want fanservice completely gone, but you don't have to determine the appropriate level of it to give your argument weight. So, what do you consider "the appropriate level" of racism in the US? Because, you know, most people would probably say NONE. And yes, you DO have to say what sort of limits you want instated. A comics code, like American comics in the fifties forward? Do read the wikipedia page on that for a bit of history. A ban on anything that "depicts women as sexual objects" as decided by an approval board composed of people of what qualifications? You seem very fond of the word "unnecessary". It is the same word used in every discussion about censorship, from the Roman Catholic Church's Index Romanum Librorum Prohibitorum (unsure about the latin here, sorry), their list of forbidden books that reads like a who's who of Western thought. The point is, you don't get to claim you are only talking about "unnecessary" until you define who gets to make that call about a work.
If you don't like fanservice, then see anime that doesn't have it, start a site where people can review that part of anime series, join or start such a community, work toward a voluntary mark of fanservice-free anime for producers, give out prizes for fanservice-free anime, and so on. There is a lot you can do.
Full disclosure: I don't really enjoy fanservice. I find it rather tiresome. Still, I find censorship indicative of a pitiful view of one's fellow human beings, and I rather side with the perverts than the book-burners. Every time.
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I'll take perverts over book burners too, easy. Shaming sexuality seems like a troublesome way to go. But I still find it constructive to talk about the kind of impact content has, how it can effect people positively and negatively and so forth.
You draw a parallel here between racism and fanservice. You say that you don't want fanservice completely gone, but you don't have to determine the appropriate level of it to give your argument weight. So, what do you consider "the appropriate level" of racism in the US? Because, you know, most people would probably say NONE. And yes, you DO have to say what sort of limits you want instated. A comics code, like American comics in the fifties forward? Do read the wikipedia page on that for a bit of history. A ban on anything that "depicts women as sexual objects" as decided by an approval board composed of people of what qualifications? You seem very fond of the word "unnecessary". It is the same word used in every discussion about censorship, from the Roman Catholic Church's Index Romanum Librorum Prohibitorum (unsure about the latin here, sorry), their list of forbidden books that reads like a who's who of Western thought. The point is, you don't get to claim you are only talking about "unnecessary" until you define who gets to make that call about a work.
If you don't like fanservice, then see anime that doesn't have it, start a site where people can review that part of anime series, join or start such a community, work toward a voluntary mark of fanservice-free anime for producers, give out prizes for fanservice-free anime, and so on. There is a lot you can do.
Full disclosure: I don't really enjoy fanservice. I find it rather tiresome. Still, I find censorship indicative of a pitiful view of one's fellow human beings, and I rather side with the perverts than the book-burners. Every time.
I drew parallels between fanservice and racism because Alzrius's argument seems to state that if you can't quantify how much fanservice is allowed, then fanservice can't be limited at all. He's stated that any moderation of fanservice is bad and has implied, at least to my thoughts, that he would be, in fact, in favor of even more fanservice.
When I speak of unnecessary or even gratuitous fanservice, I use examples like Highschool of the Dead with supersonic breasts. When I speak of good amounts of fan service, I will use Fairy Tail, or Naruto, or Rave Master or even Dragon Ball Z (Chi Chi as a 12 year old in bikini armor being the major exception).
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Your argument here seems to say that, unless I am recognized expert as voted or licensed by the consensus, I am not allowed to call an excess of fanservice what it is. To go back to racism, that means that anyone who isn't an expert on racism and is noted by the consensus as being such cannot call anything racist.
A cop kills a black man because he's black? It's not racist until a noted expert deems it so. A Chinese gets paid less than someone of another race because of where he was born? Not racist unless an expert deems it so.
Beware of what precedent you want to set when you try and determine such things. If only experts can determine what is, and is not the objectification of women, then this world is truly a sad place and should probably perish in fire.
Experts? No. My whole point is that IF you want to impose limits, there will have to be some sort of mechanism for said limits - otherwise you won't have limits. Now, it seems you do want limits, but you consequently refuse to describe the mechanism for said limits. You keep saying "unnecessary" and "gratuitous", just like every would-be book-burner ever, and just like them, you do not explain how your limits would be implemented. The problem is that if enough people claim this is a problem, some politician will make a law to appease the crowd. This will mean Bad Things, of course. Import restrictions, bannings, approval boards, whatever. And, again, please read up on what the comics code was. Then read Archie (the bedrock of that style of comics), and think about if that is all you want to be able to access, even as an adult. See, just because you are only worried about the image of women, rest assured that a new anime code would include bans on showing cops as ineffective, depicting dead people in disrespectful situations, anything that could be interpreted as support for vigilanteism, any sort of use of drugs including cigarettes, unethical experiments, unhealthy relationships between people, crime that is not punished quickly... The list would never end. And you say you don't want a ban, well then, WHAT DO YOU WANT?
Not at all... But if you are not talking about bans, what remains is voluntary things, things like marks for no fanservice, sites for promotion of anime without fanservice, and so on. That didn't seem to be enough.
Experts? No. My whole point is that IF you want to impose limits, there will have to be some sort of mechanism for said limits - otherwise you won't have limits. Now, it seems you do want limits, but you consequently refuse to describe the mechanism for said limits. You keep saying "unnecessary" and "gratuitous", just like every would-be book-burner ever, and just like them, you do not explain how your limits would be implemented. The problem is that if enough people claim this is a problem, some politician will make a law to appease the crowd. This will mean Bad Things, of course. Import restrictions, bannings, approval boards, whatever. And, again, please read up on what the comics code was. Then read Archie (the bedrock of that style of comics), and think about if that is all you want to be able to access, even as an adult. See, just because you are only worried about the image of women, rest assured that a new anime code would include bans on showing cops as ineffective, depicting dead people in disrespectful situations, anything that could be interpreted as support for vigilanteism, any sort of use of drugs including cigarettes, unethical experiments, unhealthy relationships between people, crime that is not punished quickly... The list would never end. And you say you don't want a ban, well then, WHAT DO YOU WANT?
Not sure why you seem to think the only answer is in a code of ethics or something. All I'm asking for is the creators to tone down the fanservice, not ban it.
Though, I would add that banning super-sonic breast jiggling should probably be a thing. That scene from HotD (Highschool of the Dead) made me groan, and not in a good way.
So, I interpret you as not wanting a ban at all. Now, if the producers will not tone it down, what will you do about it? Or, do you want a ban for the most extreme examples... And who will adjudicate that?
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What they said is not wrong, portraying women as objects of a sexual nature does indeed reduce them to sexual objects. However, women do this to themselves when they dress or act sexy; they attempt to put themselves into a position in their targets mind to induce sexual feelings.
However, repeated and gratuitous fanservice is a bad thing. It can give younger minds a demented sort of perception on the world and a woman's place in it. Sometimes the objectification of women is very subtle.
This is the part of it I really have a hard time accepting. Women reduce themselves to sexual objects by dressing or acting sexy? First, is it wrong if a woman dresses or acts sexy? Is that being reduced if she does it of her own free will? Who decides what level of "decency" or "purity" is required of women? Isn't this reasoning pushing the agenda that women are responsible toward a lot of other people for what "morals" they show? I.e. Slut shaming? But then, somehow it is the fanservice's fault that women have problems with their bodies and sexuality? I am very sorry, I don't get it. To my thinking, we are all as adults free to express our emotions, even sexual feelings, in whatever way we choose, so long as we don't actively harm others. Or at least, should be...