So, Apparently NPCs Suck


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Liberty's Edge

It should be noted that while a 10th level fighter might not have a problem putting out decent to hit on his first attack, unlike monsters, his second attack, (and if you give him another level third) suffer significant penalties, while monsters do not. That's probably why people rank melee npcs lower than caster npcs.

Liberty's Edge

ShadowcatX wrote:
It should be noted that while a 10th level fighter might not have a problem putting out decent to hit on his first attack, unlike monsters, his second attack, (and if you give him another level third) suffer significant penalties, while monsters do not. That's probably why people rank melee npcs lower than caster npcs.

Potentially true, I suppose, but what should really be looked at is probably DPR. And even just looking at individual attacks, some creatures only have one or two to the Fighter's greater number (which does matter).

The Exchange

Hey Thanks Deadman, I really wanted a Plant-o-mancer before, but I could never figure out how they worked. I think my PCs(if ever I can actually play with them) will have a blast fighting this guy.

Liberty's Edge

Tirq wrote:
Hey Thanks Deadman, I really wanted a Plant-o-mancer before, but I could never figure out how they worked. I think my PCs(if ever I can actually play with them) will have a blast fighting this guy.

Happy to help. :)

You should definitely tell me how it goes.
.
.
.
Anyone got any new character challenges/requests?


AoO master?

Liberty's Edge

Azten wrote:
AoO master?

Oh, lord. Alright, will do. It's gonna involve a polearm and Armor Spikes. And probably Enlarge Person.

Rough CR?


Let's go for 8. That would be a 9th level character, correct?

Liberty's Edge

Azten wrote:
Let's go for 8. That would be a 9th level character, correct?

Yep.

He's gonna be an Order of the Shield Cavalier, too, I think. This is gonna be...interesting.

I'll probably steal the Finesse Druid's companion for his mount, too.


LOL I got a game tonight where Im running Heart of Nightfang Spire and I forgot to convert over the Mummy Monk and the Vampire Wizard which Im changing over to a Beastbound Witch.

So if you are bored.

Mummy Monk 8 - I converted him over but he got ROCKED the first fight by the Paladin and had to use his helm of teleportation to bounce. I need to rework him with a tad bit higher AC for the next go around.

Vampire Beastbound Witch 13 - I decided to change him to a Beastbound Witch for story reasons (Trying to get our druid more involved in the plot) and a Beast bound vampire will be almost impossible to kill off for good so I can continually use him as a recurring villian (for the druid hehe).

You really dont have to unless your interested lol. I have the Monk worked up and just need to fix his feats so he uses crane style or something. I am just worried cause he got tore up from the paladin smite the first fight.

Liberty's Edge

@Dragonamedrake:

I'll see what I can do. A mummy monk sounds surpringly fun to stat up, actually...

Though it is a Paladin. They're gonna tear undead up no matter what.

Normal NPC wealth for their level, or what?


Deadmanwalking wrote:

@Dragonamedrake:

I'll see what I can do. A mummy monk sounds surpringly fun to stat up, actually...

Though it is a Paladin. They're gonna tear undead up no matter what.

Normal NPC wealth for their level, or what?

Yeah. You can go overboard if you need to. My group have huge stats and are way over WBL. Yeah the monk was doing well against the rest of the party untill the paladin got to him lol. Then it got ugly round 1.

The flurry mummy rot is kinda cool right!... Its a fun 3.0 module. Its a sequel to The Sunless Citadel.

I have been converting the whole thing to Pathfinder... When I get finished I will probably post up the conversions here for anyone that wants to run the series. Its generic enough you can throw it into just about any campaign world.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:

And, amusingly, I just got done arguing the exact opposite point in another thread (where the claim was made that Monster Attack Bonuses rapidly outpaced AC, making it worthless at mid-high levels). I think that it varies a lot depending on how much of the party are optimizers, what classes they play, and most importantly to what degree they focus on AC.

A group who mostly burn 2/3 of their GP on offensive items will have a very different AC than one who spend 2/3 of their GP on AC alone.

True enough. I guess it's simply the groups I GM for/play with. They are very defense-minded, high AC, high saves and such. Since the action economy usually works in their favor, it has worked pretty well for them over the years.


OK, just pure fun here. How about A melee sorcerer, CR11

And even more fun a halfing opportunist CR 11

Liberty's Edge

@magnuskn: I tend rto do the same when playing, but my players are a bit less inclined in that direction.

@Vuvu: Alright, but the Opportunist is gonna look shaky CR-wise without someone to back up...or maybe not. Ijust had a thought...


Are you using a point buy or the rules for NPC ability scores from the Core book?

Liberty's Edge

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Okay, this guy's tricky. His normal attack sucks. Period. But he uses Tactician, and his Tiger gets three attacks (eacch giving +2 to hit it), after which anyone who attacks the tiger provokes attacks of opportunity from him (which he gets a +7 on if he's challenged the target and they've attacked his pet)...and any time he's provoked, so's the Tiger. And the whole thing works the other way, too (though he only has two attacks and the Tiger only gets +4 to hit them). The synergy is potentially really nasty.

Due to Stand Still he can also (using his potential 15 foot reach) keep people from getting past him close to indefinitely.

He's oriental themed basically for the heck of it. Oh, and so he's got another ace up his sleeve in the form of a 1/10 chance of critting every round and killing something dead.

CR 8
Human Cavalier (Beast Rider/Honor Guard, Order of the Shield) 9
NG Medium Humanoid
Init +3; Senses Perception +10

DEFENSE
AC 22, touch 13, flat-footed 20 (+9 Armor, +2 Dex, +1 Deflection)
HP 90 (9d10+36)
Fort +9, Ref +7, Will +7
DR 4/- (Turns damage non-lethal)

OFFENSE
Spd 30 ft.
Melee Naginata +13/+5 (1d8+15/19-20×4) or Armor Spikes +13/+5 (1d6+10/x2),
Ranged longbow +8/+3 (1d8+4/×3)

STATISTICS
Str 18*, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
BAB +9; CMB +13; CMD 26
Feats Bodyguard, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Furious Focus, Heavy Armor Proficiency, Improved Critical (Naginata), Iron Will, Power Attack, Stand Still, Toughness,
Skills: Bluff +7, Diplomacy +6, Handle Animal +12, Heal +6, Knowledge (Local) +6, Perception +10, Ride +12, Sense Motive +10,
Languages Common, Tian,
Special Challenge 3/day (+3 to hit if they attack others, +9 damage),Tactician 2/day (Paired Opportunists, Broken Wing Gambit), Resolute, Stem the Tide,
Combat Gear potion of cure light wounds (3), potion of enlarge person (3),
Gear Cloak of Resistance +1, O-yoroi +1, Masterwork Naginata, Masterwork Armor Spikes, Belt of Strength +2, Ring of Protection +1, Composite Longbow (+3 Str) w/40 arrows,

N Large Animal (Tiger)
Init +4; Senses Perception +8, low light vision, scent
DEFENSE
AC 26, touch 13, flat-footed 22 (+4 Armor, +4 Dex, +9 Natural, -1 Size)
HP 68 (8d8+32)
Fort +10, Ref +10, Will +6
OFFENSE
Spd 40 ft.
Melee Bite +12 (1d8+7), 2 claws +12 (1d6+7)
Special Pounce, Grab, Rake (1d6+10)
STATISTICS
Str 24, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 3, Wis 15, Cha 10
BAB +6; CMB +14; CMD 22
Feats Combat Reflexes, Endurance, Power Attack, Light Armor Proficiency, Iron Will, Multiattack,
Skills: Acrobatics +8, Perception +8, Stealth +6, Survival +6,
Gear Masterwork Chain Shirt Barding, Cloak of Resistance +1,

Liberty's Edge

Azten wrote:
Are you using a point buy or the rules for NPC ability scores from the Core book?

Straight corebook NPC rules. Plus stat points from leveling and Human bonus arranged strategically, of course.

Mummy next, then vampire, then Sorcerer and Halfling Opportunist. The Mummy and Vampire should be today (though the Vampire might be a while) and we'll see about the other two. I actually do have a game tonight I need to prep for...


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Azten wrote:
Are you using a point buy or the rules for NPC ability scores from the Core book?
Straight corebook NPC rules. Plus stat points from leveling and Human bonus arranged strategically, of course.

Thanks, makes this easier. Bwahaha!

Liberty's Edge

Azten wrote:
Thanks, makes this easier. Bwahaha!

Well, the point (aside from NPC-making and alleviating my boredom) is to prove the system works. Modifying said system would sorta defeat the purpose. :)


Let's see if this one lives up to standards then.

Azten wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
I just thought I'd kill multiple birds with one stone.
Sling masters, away!

Sling Master in Training:

CR 5
Halfling Mobile Fighter 6

Hit Dice: 6d10+12
Hit Points: 48

Languages: Common, Halfling, Goblin

Fort: +8
Ref: +6
Will: +3

BaB: +6/+1
CMB: +6
CMD: 20

Armor Class: 21 (10, 6 Armor, 1 Shield, 4 Dex, 1 Size)
Touch: 15
Flat-footed: 17
Speed: 20ft

Str 12, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 10

+1 Sling (1d3+4, x2, 50ft, B) +12/+7
>>>Sling Flail (1d6+2, x2, B) +9/+4
Back-Up Sling (1d3+3, x2, 50ft, B) +11/+6
Masterwork Light Steel Shield
+1 Armored Coat

Profession(Soldier) +9, Climb +10, Swim +10, Survival +9

Feats
Lv1: Point Blank Shot
Fighter 1: Precise Shot
Fighter 2: Deadly Aim(-2 Attack, +4 Damage)
Lv3: Weapon Focus(Sling)
Fighter 4: Weapon Specialization(Sling)
Lv5: Arc Slinger
Fighter 6: Sling Flail

Halfling Special: +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Str, Small, Fearless, Halfling Luck, Keen Senses, Warslinger, Weapon Familiarity

Mobile Fighter Special: Agility +2, Armor Training 1, Leaping Attack +1, Bonus Feats

Combat Gear: 3 Tanglefoot Bags, 2 Alchemist's Fire, 1 Acid, 4 Potions of Cure Light Wounds, Oil of Bless Weapon, Potion of Grace, 50 sling bullets, Armor Spikes, 5 Thunderstones,

Gear: Masterwork Backpack, Signal Whistle, 4 Sunrods, Explorer's Outfit, Riding Dog, Military Saddle, 1 day of Feed, 4 days of Rations, 2 Waterskins,
7 gold, 6 silver, 5 copper


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Azten wrote:
Are you using a point buy or the rules for NPC ability scores from the Core book?

Straight corebook NPC rules. Plus stat points from leveling and Human bonus arranged strategically, of course.

Mummy next, then vampire, then Sorcerer and Halfling Opportunist. The Mummy and Vampire should be today (though the Vampire might be a while) and we'll see about the other two. I actually do have a game tonight I need to prep for...

You don't have to do the mummy and Vamp if you are under a time constraint lol.

Liberty's Edge

Azten wrote:
Let's see if this one lives up to standards then.

Damage is a little low, I think. I'd skip Sling Flail for Rapid Shot, which jacks damage quite a bit. Switching Int and Wis would also add +1 Will Save in exchange for some Swim and Climb, neither of which need to be that high. In fact, moving some Favored Class bonuses to HP instead of skills might also be good.

Or that's what I'd do, anyway. This is an NPC, remember, and probably a combat encounter. He doesn't realy need more than the Climb +6, Swim +4, Profession +9, Survival +9 he has with Int 10 and Favored Class in HP. And that Will Save and HP make him a much more durable and useful adversary.

I do note one issue with his AC: It shoiuld be 1 lower as things stand (5 armor, 3 dex), though I'd be inclined to replace the armored coat with a breastplate and get it up to 22.

Liberty's Edge

Dragonamedrake wrote:
You don't have to do the mummy and Vamp if you are under a time constraint lol.

I really am. I may whip something up tomorrow just for the hell of it, but, with your kind permission, I think I'm done statting stuff up for today. Unless I get really inspired or something...


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Dragonamedrake wrote:
You don't have to do the mummy and Vamp if you are under a time constraint lol.
I really am. I may whip something up tomorrow just for the hell of it, but, with your kind permission, I think I'm done statting stuff up for today. Unless I get really inspired or something...

Hey this is your baby. Im just here reaping the benefits. I have bookmarked the thread. I can always use NPCs. Thank you for all the builds.

Liberty's Edge

Dragonamedrake wrote:
Hey this is your baby. Im just here reaping the benefits. I have bookmarked the thread. I can always use NPCs. Thank you for all the builds.

Cool. :)

Always nice to know I'm providing something useful. And you're very welcome.


I added Sling Flail so I wouldn't need to have to switch weapons for melee. I admit the skills could be re-done, or just Swim at the very least. Climb was so he could reasonably be in a tree during the fight.

As for switching Wisdom and Intelligence, I used the stats for a Heroic Ranged NPC, and was going to do that originally until I remembered this was supposed to be done without modifying the rules.

Liberty's Edge

Azten wrote:
I added Sling Flail so I wouldn't need to have to switch weapons for melee. I admit the skills could be re-done, or just Swim at the very least. Climb was so he could reasonably be in a tree during the fight.

Reasonable. Just saying what I'd do.

Azten wrote:
As for switching Wisdom and Intelligence, I used the stats for a Heroic Ranged NPC, and was going to do that originally until I remembered this was supposed to be done without modifying the rules.

The table is optional, even by the strictest RAW. Read the first line describing it. Neither the foks at Paizo, nor I, always stick to it. It's the array you need to stick with by the RAW.


magnuskn wrote:
I've found that most melee NPC's are worthless. They can't hit for crap, which is due to them needing to be underfunded ( because elsewise after the encounter the PC's have their stuff and what then? ).

When a foe has gear more expensive than I want the PCs to have yet, I say when they're done that their furious assaults damaged the gear and it would have to be repaired to use it, or they can just sell it for half normal price minus the repair cost. This keeps the wealth boost from being unbalancing. E.g. I recently had my party going up against an evil samurai with masterwork O-Yoroi armor. When they got done defeating him, I told them that his armor could be repaired for 370 gold, or sold for 555 gold (half the price of the armor minus repair cost), but of course they'd have to return to the capital and find a master armorsmith to repair it. This, combined with the fact that the tank of the party would have a penalty to speed and other skills when using it, made them decide not to keep it. That brings up the other thing I use to avoid giving the PCs excessively powerful gear: I select weapons or armor they haven't specialized in, that don't fit their character concept, that they aren't proficient in, and so forth. If none of the characters are an elf or have proficiency in elven curved blade, giving an elven curved blade as treasure will mean they'll either have to take an exotic proficiency next available feat, which will in turn reduce their advancement to later more powerful feats, and will want to use that weapon rather than any other which means you can later give more typical weapons as treasure without a problem. If none of the characters are monks, having lots of exotic monk weapons as treasure will make it less likely they'll do anything but sell them.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

@magnuskn: I tend rto do the same when playing, but my players are a bit less inclined in that direction.

@Vuvu: Alright, but the Opportunist is gonna look shaky CR-wise without someone to back up...or maybe not. Ijust had a thought...

ofcourse, maybe make them work together?


DMW: Are you STILL handing out NPC builds? If so I need a low level CR 3 Mite mastermind and his CR 2 elites. The mastermind is built around using the vermin empathy for servile minions - I was thinking bard or druid, but I'll leave that to you. In combat he's dex focused, buffing his minions and letting them do the work for him.

The elites are also mites. They need to be mounted combatants, tacking advantage of their unique vermin mount's special movements like burrowing, flight, or wall crawling. I'd orginally thought of them as ranged combatants but then the mount doesn't get an attack unless it has spring attack or flyby or something, so melee I guess would be fine too. Again; I'll leave it in your hands.

As to your original point: I LOVE npc's. If I had the time I'd stat out or reskin almost all eilites or BBEG's just as NPC's with interesting appearances. I even like NPC experts and aristocrats. The only NPC I never liked was the adept. They seem SO limited it turned me off.


Your human treant druid won't work. He can't have a plant companion if he's not an elf. That archetype is racial to elves.

Silver Crusade

Borthos Brewhammer wrote:
Your human treant druid won't work. He can't have a plant companion if he's not an elf. That archetype is racial to elves.

Then again, most people aware of plant companions intend to ignore that restriction anyway.


Mikaze wrote:
Borthos Brewhammer wrote:
Your human treant druid won't work. He can't have a plant companion if he's not an elf. That archetype is racial to elves.
Then again, most people aware of plant companions intend to ignore that restriction anyway.

Still, if he wants it to be rules compliant, is has to be an elf

Liberty's Edge

Borthos Brewhammer wrote:
Still, if he wants it to be rules compliant, is has to be an elf

We don't actually know this. The 'Goblin' Alchemist Archetype previewed doesn't actually require being a Goblin, it's just very thematically appropriate to them. I'd bet on the Archetype in question being similar.

Also, it was specifically requested, I'm happy to bend rules at individual requests.

@Vuvu: That's very possible. :)

@Mark Hoover: That should be pretty buildable. I'll add it to the queue.

Liberty's Edge

Skipping the Undead for now.

Here's a vicious little bastard of a Halfling, cruel, capricious, and, well, opportunistic. His AC's alright, his Saves are excellent, and his damage is quite good at need.

His HP are a little low, and he needs someone to Aid him to be full-on effective offensively, but he has a Fiendish Bison for that (and for a flanking buddy), or can take advantage with Exploitive Maneuver.

Still, his Smite + Sneak Attack + Touch of Corruption + Exploitive Maneuver can be +22 to hit for 1d4+5d6+19 damage (for an average of 39 damage), and then there are criticals, and the fact that his AC is 27 while doing this.

CR 11
Halfling Antipaladin 7/Halfling Opportunist 5
CE Small Humanoid
Init +5; Senses Perception +15

DEFENSE
AC 25, touch 18, flat-footed 19 (+6 Armor, +5 Dex, +1 Size, +1 Deflection, +1 Natural Armor, +1 Dodge)
HP 84 (7d10+5d8+19)
Fort +14, Ref +16, Will +13

OFFENSE
Spd 20 ft.
Melee +1 conductive scimitar +14/+9 (1d4+12/15-20)
Ranged light crossbow +16 (1d8/19-20)
Special Sneak Attack +2d6, Excellent Aid +3 (Recieves +5 from Aid Another), Opportunity Attacker (Always gets Sneak Attack on AoO), Exploitive Maneuver

SPELLS

2nd: Invisibility or Undetectable Alignment (depending on what he's doing)
1st: Disguise Self, Protection From Law,

STATISTICS
Str 13, Dex 20*, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 16
BAB +10; CMB +10/+14; CMD 27
Feats Combat Reflexes, Defensive Combat Training, Dervish Dance, Improved Critical (Scimitar), Power Attack, Weapon Finesse,
Skills: Acrobatics +22, Bluff +7, Climb +7, Diplomacy +7,Knowledge (Planes) +5, Knowledge (Religion) +5. Perception +15, Perform (Dance)+8, Sense Motive +7, Stealth +18, Swim +5,
Languages Common, Halfling,
Special Smite Good 3/day (+3 to hit, +2 AC, +7 damage), Unholy Resilience, Detect Good, Plague Bringer, Aura of Evil and Cowardice, Touch of Corruption 3d6 6/day (Cruelties: Fatigued, Staggered, DC 16), Fiendish Boon (Fiendish Bison, Masterwork Studded Leather Barding), Trap Spotter, Fit In, Exceptionally Lucky +3,
Combat Gear potion of cure light wounds (2),
Gear Mithral Chain Shirt +2, Conductive Scimitar +1, Belt of Dexterity +2, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Ring of Protection +1, Light Crossbow w/20 bolts,


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I love the effort youre doing.
Go NPCs!

My request is simple, A CR:1 warrior that will do his level best to kick the ass of a Lv 1 Fighter. Just to demonstrate the effectiveness of NPCs and 'cause i want to see what you come up with.

Liberty's Edge

Brambleman wrote:

I love the effort youre doing.

Go NPCs!

Yay!

Glad you approve. :)

Brambleman wrote:
My request is simple, A CR:1 warrior that will do his level best to kick the ass of a Lv 1 Fighter. Just to demonstrate the effectiveness of NPCs and 'cause i want to see what you come up with.

Hmmm. Should be doable, I mean, that's a level 3 Warrior. Gimme a minute. Mites and Sorcerer (plus maybe undead) after this, since it's so quick.

Liberty's Edge

Okay, here's a quick pretty defensive build. Ideally, he downs a Potion of Enlarge Person if he's got time (dropping AC to 18 but giving him an Intimidate Bonus and upping his damage to 2d6+5, not to mention giving him reach). He'll then do Dazzling Display if fighting multiple opponents, and with any luck debuff everyone he's fighting. He'll then simply go head to head.

vs. a level 1 Fighter, his to-hit is on par, his damage is around on par, and his AC is likely somewhat higher, and his HP may well be half again as high. Plus he's got Intimidate on his list of tricks.

CR 1
Human Warrior 3
N Medium Humanoid
Init +1; Senses Perception -1

DEFENSE
AC 20, touch 11, flat-footed 19 (+7 Armor, +1 Dex, +2 Shield)
HP 19 (3d10+3)
Fort +3, Ref +2, Will +0

OFFENSE
Spd 30 ft.
Melee longsword +6 (1d8+4/19-20) (w/Power Attack)
Ranged sling +4 (1d4+2/x2)

STATISTICS
Str 14, Dex 13, Con 11, Int 9, Wis 8, Cha 10
BAB +3; CMB +5; CMD 16
Feats Dazzling Display, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Longsword),
Skills: Climb -1, Intimidate +9, Profession (Soldier) +4, Swim -1,
Languages Common,
Combat Gear potion of cure light wounds (1), potion of enlarge person (2),
Gear Masterwork Longsword, Banded Mail, Hea Sling w/20 slingstones, Dagger,

The Exchange

I do find it funny that people mention a possible mistake when no-one seems to care about the Commoner using a Scythe.


love the opportunist. never would have thought to put it with antipaladan

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I also think that NPCs are wimps in comparison to PCs. Especially in PFS.

One big reason is that NPCs are built on the elite array(15 pt buy, not optimized) and PCs are built on 20 points, optimized.

When I ran Ruby Phoenix, most the NPCs would only have a +10 to +15 to hit at 12th or 13th level, while the PCs are at +16 to +20. ACs were similarly skewed to the PCs favor with NPCs only having around a 20 to 25 AC. And the weakest PC I had (non caster) had a 28AC. And the NPCs couldn't get to the casters because they where in melee from round 2.

SAves for cast spells are also bad. PCs at 11th or 12th level will have a casting stat of 22 to 26 by this time. NPCs only had a 20 to 22 MAX.

Liberty's Edge

@Tirq:

Huh. My bad. Coulda sworn a scuythe was simple. Still, making it a spear changes little of consequence.

@Vuvu:

Well, I was thinking, what can a Halfling do that's a good melee character? and the answer just sorta came to me...

@Tim Statler:

You misunderstand both the role of NPCs and my assertion about them. Of course they are less effective than PCs of their level, and I never claimed they were equal to them. What they are is as effective as monsters of their CR, which is what they should be, since they are serving the same role.

A CR 11-12 monster has 145-160 HP, an AC of 25-27, an attack of +14 to +21, and Save DCs of between 14 and 21. Some of those can be lower as long as others are higher. I'd expect NPCs to be well within those ranges on everything but HP and have compensating advantages to make up for their lower HP.

Looking at the NPCs from Ruby Phoenix specifically, the generic mooks are indeed a little low for CR 8. They're also at around half the GP an NPC of their level should have and what they do possess has not been spent very effectively. NPCs CR is predicated on their wealth...so they're inevitably a bit weak.

The others mostly look pretty good for their CR. Ganyavesha's got slightly low AC, but she's got DR instead, and her attacks and save DCs are about as expected for a CR 12, for example.


Please note that Ruby Phoenix Tournament features a lot of fights with several opportunities to get your characters weakened in between. Slight weakening of less important characters allows for making the plot developments slightly more manageable.

Regards,
Ruemere

Liberty's Edge

ruemere wrote:

Please note that Ruby Phoenix Tournament features a lot of fights with several opportunities to get your characters weakened in between. Slight weakening of less important characters allows for making the plot developments slightly more manageable.

Regards,
Ruemere

Indeed, a very valid point worth noting. Context can matter on something of this nature quite a bit. I was just looking at the stats themselves for purposes of this discusssion, not the whole of the adventure.


Tim Statler wrote:
One big reason is that NPCs are built on the elite array(15 pt buy, not optimized) and PCs are built on 20 points, optimized.

This is why I've begun using lower point buys/the elite array in my games. Provided I'm not too stingy with my magic items, I've found it's worked out nicely.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Hmmm. Should be doable, I mean, that's a level 3 Warrior. Gimme a minute. Mites and Sorcerer (plus maybe undead) after this, since it's so quick.

To paraphrase young Oliver: please sir, could I have some Mites?

Seriously though if you want to skip 'em I understand; they can get a tad overdone (even though to be honest this is the first time I'm ever using them).

NPC's ARE awesome and I'll be using lots of them for the current campaign. Along with evil fey I'll be adding lycanthropes and monstrous humanoids as well with an ongoing theme of the Dark Fairy Tale. The first adventure out they're exploring a ruin where the evil mite mastermind is usine wicked fey magic to turn children into more mites, plus making other fey-touched stuff. Bring on the NPC's! And of course...THANKS SO MUCH DM DUB!

Liberty's Edge

Mark Hoover wrote:

To paraphrase young Oliver: please sir, could I have some Mites?

Seriously though if you want to skip 'em I understand; they can get a tad overdone (even though to be honest this is the first time I'm ever using them).

Oh, they'll be done. They'll just take a little while, while a Warrior 3 is quick and easy. I'm gonna whip them up right after the melee sorcerer.

Mark Hoover wrote:
NPC's ARE awesome and I'll be using lots of them for the current campaign. Along with evil fey I'll be adding lycanthropes and monstrous humanoids as well with an ongoing theme of the Dark Fairy Tale. The first adventure out they're exploring a ruin where the evil mite mastermind is usine wicked fey magic to turn children into more mites, plus making other fey-touched stuff. Bring on the NPC's! And of course...THANKS SO MUCH DM DUB!

Nice. And you're very welcome. :)

Shadow Lodge

If NPCs didn't suck, how would the PCs beat them? ;)

Liberty's Edge

Alright, Melee Sorcerer is go. Uses Invisibility and Quicken Spell to achieve buff spells, then does Greater Invisibility + Form of the Dragon and tears things apart. Has Overland Flight and Mage Armor up at all times.

CR 11
Human Sorcerer (Draconic) 12
NE Medium Humanoid
Init +5; Senses Perception +14

DEFENSE
AC 23/25, touch 18, flat-footed 19 (+4 Armor, +4 Shield, +1 Dex, +2/4 Natural Armor, +1 Dodge, +1 Deflection)
HP 68/80 (12d6+24), plus False Life
Fort +9/10, Ref +7, Will +11
Special acid resistance 10, possibly DR 10/adamantine

OFFENSE
Spd 30 ft.
Melee spear +12/+7 (1d8+9/x3) or two claws +13 (1d6+7+1d6 each) or bite +15 (1d8+9) two claws +15 (1d6+9), and two wings +15 (1d4+9)
Ranged light crossbow +8/+3 (1d8/19-20)

SPELLS

6th: 3/day; Form of the Dragon I
5th: 5/day; Overland Flight, Spell Resistance,
4th: 6/day; Fear (DC 17), Fire Shield, Greater Invisibility, Stoneskin,
3rd: 6/day; Dispel Magic, Displacement, Fly, Haste, Heroism,
2nd: 6/day; Bear's Endurance, Cat's Grace, False Life, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Resist Energy,
1st: 6/day; Feather Fall, Grease, Mage Armor, Protection From Good, Shield, True Strike,
0th: Acid Splash, Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Prestidigitation,
STATISTICS
Str 22*, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 16*
BAB +6; CMB +11/+14; CMD 27
Feats Arcane Strike, Combat Casting, Dodge, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Quicken Spell, Silent Spell,
Skills: Bluff +7, Fly +7 (+13), Intimidate +7, Knowledge (Arcana) +10, Linguistics +1, Perception +14, Spellcraft +14,
Languages Common, Hallit, Draconic,
Special Claws 6/day, Breath Weapon - 30 ft. cone 13d6 acid damage (DC 19) 1/day
Combat Gear potion of cure serious wounds (1), scroll of see invisibility (2), 250 gp diamond dust (for Stoneskin)
Gear Ceremonial Silk Armor, spear, Cloak of Resistance +2, Belt of Strength +2, Headband of Charisma +2, Amulet of Mighty Fists +1, Ring of Protection +1,


Nice job with the warrior. Even with limited options you managed to surprise me. I was not expecting dazzling display.

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