Clustered shots and special ability damage (e.g. flaming bow)


Rules Questions

Silver Crusade

I just picked up a flaming bow for my ranger, who also has the Clustered Shots feat. I have two questions:

1) Does the 1d6 fire damage apply to each arrow that hits, including the two arrows from manyshot?

2) With clustered shots, is the additional fire damage from the flaming bow added together along with the regular arrow damage before subtracting the damage reduction?

Thanks!


1 If its turned on then yes each arrow.

2. I want to say it over comes any way as it is energy damage. If not then yes.


By RAW Clustered Shots only allow you to group damage for DR not energy resistance.

However, with that said it could easily be houseruled that it also clusters the energy resistance.

- Gauss


Damage reduction won't affect the fire damage regardless. But it does not "cluster" and the feat is of no help against energy resistance.


I also just had this problem, we had an entire session against enemies with resist all elements, so my normal 4 die attacks were now 1 die damage rolls, and we pretty much had to get a mercy from the DM since I was the only one able to deal out enough damage to make the encounters bearable, but was getting mad at my magus/arcane archer.

But, it makes sense to me at least, that all the arrows hit at roughly the same time, and spot so you would total the damage and then take off what they have. So, if they have Resist Fire 10 and you hit them for 4d6, you still have to break 10 to hurt them but as he ruled it, I didn't even bother rolling my dice, since I could only top out at 6 and it REALLY hurt my character build. Glad to see I'm not the only one with this problem.


How did you get +3d6 of fire damage per arrow?

Shadow Lodge

Cheapy wrote:
How did you get +3d6 of fire damage per arrow?

He was saying if he had 4 shots (each with +1d6 fire) he wanted to cluster the fire damage together like he does with the weapon damage for bypassing energy resistance.


I took "my normal 4 die attacks" to mean...his attacks normally used 4 dies.

Shadow Lodge

But then what would that have to do with clustered shots? :)

I took it as he usually rolls his attacks all at once, then rolls damage once using all the dice he hit with. Many of us in our group do this to save time. But with DR/ER you have to roll things separately.


Cheapy wrote:
I took "my normal 4 die attacks" to mean...his attacks normally used 4 dies.

"enemies with resist all elements"

I'm assuming he's arcane pooling up +1d6 of three separate energy types.


Fire damage from each arrow does not stack. In short if you use many shot and each arrow is doing 1d6 fire damage, but the monster has fire resistance/10 then that monster will not take any fire damage.


With the Clustered Shot feat you combine all of your arrows into a a single attack, which since it is a single "attack" only has to have the Damage Reduction subtracted from the grouping once. so if you have 6 arrows against something with DR 10/- you'd therefore roll 6d6 or 6d8 as a single strike instead of 6 individual attacks & subtract the 10 once instead of 6 times.

The primary question is if you are using a Bow that adds elemental damage to the attacks lets day an extra d6 of damage per arrow, would you go ahead & roll 6d6 & just add that extra damage to the clustered shot in fire damage? or would you roll it once since its considered a single attack?

Beyond that, if you roll the arrow fire damage 6 times would it follow the same properties of the feat & work against Energy Resistance the same as it would Damage Reduction? As in, if the monster has ER All 10 & you roll all 6's (lucky you) do you do 26? or 0?

I think that if you have the feat & are using a bow with an Energy type, it should be able to roll the energy type for each arrow same as normal, but limit any other extra to once, such as Sneak attack (if it applies)

However this also poses a problem for an Inquisitor using this feat, what should be done about an Inquisitor using Bane, should all 6 attacks benefit from Bane? or should it only be added once?

Sorry for the wall of Text, I am playing an Inquisitor & plan to take this feat at a later point & would like opinions on this as well.

Grand Lodge

Clustered Shots just adds the normal damage from the attacks together to compare it to the target's DR, and, if the game uses it, the massive damage rules, it doesn't have any effect on the individual damage from any particular attack, that is handled as normal for the attack.


.... this comes up a few times at my table occasionally because of my fighter archer. let's see what were dealing with here:

clustered shots:

Benefit: When you use a full-attack action to make multiple ranged weapon attacks against the same opponent, total the damage from all hits before applying that opponent’s damage reduction.

Special: If the massive damage optional rule is being used (Core Rulebook 189), that rule applies if the total damage you deal with this feat is equal to or exceeds half the opponent’s full normal hit points (minimum 50 points of damage).
_____________________
There is nothing stating a single attack. they are separate attacks, but only damage is totaled. Also there is nothing stating otherwise of adding them up, however I don't believe that that was the intended purpose. At best, it works, at DM's call; if not, so what, can't get everything, although that would be awesome. Gonna need an Faq on this and a lot of other archery stuff as well i'm afraid.

also, they mention, as you can see, the special rules. now, you can take that as two ways, either they allow you to use the feat for energy damage and expanding past the DR, since were now talking about energy resistance, of which there is no mention of ; or e can take it as the dev's saying "we made the feat to deal with only physical damage stuff= DR and massive damage, not magical crap, or anything else, want proof? we even went out of out ready to include the optional damage rules. we purposely ignored core stuff, because we didn't want it, and got an optional rule not only mentioned, but expands to be included with the new feat."


So whats your opinion on other special effects happening with it? If a clustered shot is used by an Inquisitor would they get 6 Bane Attacks if they used Bane? since as you pointed out its not a single attack, its just calculated as all in one damage.


Of course the inquisitor would get 6 bane attacks. Why wouldn't it? It wouldn't be any different if he had clustered shots or not, assuming all hit.


Oh, I see your confusion.

No, you don't just roll once. You roll for each attack. What this feat does is has the GM not subtract out the DR until you've totaled up all the damage. Normally, you'd do, say, 15 damage against a creature with DR 10, and the GM would subtract 10 from that (for 5), and ask about your next arrows damage, assuming it hit. He would then subtract 10 from that as well, continuing this for all arrows that hit.

With this...lovably balanced of a feat...they instead tally up all the damage before applying the DR.

So, if you shot 6 arrows and each one did 15 damage, without this feat, you'd be doing 30 points of damage. With it, you'll be doing 80.


Cheapy wrote:

Oh, I see your confusion.

No, you don't just roll once. You roll for each attack. What this feat does is has the GM not subtract out the DR until you've totaled up all the damage. Normally, you'd do, say, 15 damage against a creature with DR 10, and the GM would subtract 10 from that (for 5), and ask about your next arrows damage, assuming it hit. He would then subtract 10 from that as well, continuing this for all arrows that hit.

With this...lovably balanced of a feat...they instead tally up all the damage before applying the DR.

So, if you shot 6 arrows and each one did 15 damage, without this feat, you'd be doing 30 points of damage. With it, you'll be doing 80.

And in this case if the massive damage rules are being used if the target has 160 hp's or less it will have to roll a fort save or die =)

Asta
PSY


No it wouldnt. Its still multiple seperate hits. Clustered shot doesnt change that all it does is affect DR. It affects nothing else.


who are you referencing to Mojo?


to PSY850, he made the reference to massive damage rules in his 80 damage example. For massive damage you need a single hit for 50 damage, multiple shots totaling 50+ wont give you massive damage.

There just seemed to be some confusion about what this feat did earlier on. And i wanted to stress all it does is change how DR works nothing more nothing less. Its already borderline OP having it affect Energy specials on the arrows would be silly.


bane would still work, seeing as it says, all damage, for application to DR. too bad it can't be used for when trying to bypass hardness for objects.

.. mojorat, read the feat please. it gives special rules to the massive damage. totaling damage, then applying. if it its more than half, massive damage rules can apply of you use them. do yes, maybe damage is brutal with this. so much so, my DM doesn't use that optional rule, because my archer had clustered shots.


Seeing as how the feat specifically mentions massive damage rules, im pretty sure it affects those too.

You total up all damage, then apply it. That's why it mentions massive damage. You are pooling all your damage into one damage pool.


actually Mojo, the feat has a special advisory on it that says "IF" the GM is using Death From Massive Damage rules that the "Clustered Shots" would qualify

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