As I said, I don't think it's OP, it's just less fun. A boss using it is a fun possibly but not necessarily a challenging encounter, but if it's common, it takes the fun out of feat trees like vital strike. Giving an instant "+20 on Ac, natural 20 not autohit" on one attack per round still gives you the same effect, but still renders you defenseless against truly epic characters. Or add your attack bonus to ac or twice your level or whatever high number. Any effect like this should in my opinion allow for a d20.
I would be very sad if I got a true strike and a fortune hex on my Greater Vital strike, I throw a natural twenty for 60+ attack roll, and then the potential crit just fizzles because of the melee attack immunity of this lvl 5 monk. It does not make sense to me, and I don't think it fits the style of the pathfinder system, I think it's broken, but for most general use not over powered.
As I said, I don't think it's OP, it's just less fun. A boss using it is a fun possibly but not necessarily a challenging encounter, but if it's common, it takes the fun out of feat trees like vital strike. Giving an instant "+20 on Ac, natural 20 not autohit" on one attack per round still gives you the same effect, but still renders you defenseless against truly epic characters. Or add your attack bonus to ac or twice your level or whatever high number. Any effect like this should in my opinion allow for a d20.
The problem with this is that you are thinking of only having a 1-hit (only in melee) attack. There are many many many ways to get around this as a GM. Think outside the box. It only deflects 1 attack per round, YOU know this as a GM. Toss a couple of mooks at him, delay with your big bad, he deflects, you vital strike and bam! He can't deflect it anymore.
I would be very sad if I got a true strike and a fortune hex on my Greater Vital strike, I throw a natural twenty for 60+ attack roll, and then the potential crit just fizzles because of the melee attack immunity of this lvl 5 monk. It does not make sense to me, and I don't think it fits the style of the pathfinder system, I think it's broken, but for most general use not over powered.
Again, ways around this. You don't play your BBEG as stupid automatons, they got to be high level big bads for a reason, they know tactics. They will stand back and see the strengths/weaknesses of their foes and react accordingly. Even a level 5 bandit leader would have a few guys following him. He will put them in danger before he goes in and he will study his foes. He sees this monk deflecting attacks and attacking he will flank and wait until someone has attacked then hit. Simple simple simple.
People tend to over-think a lot of the things in the game. I try to keep is simple and move on. I don't whine or moan over something that is different, I don't complain something is OP because nothing is really OP if you think about it, just work with what you have, play smart and have fun.
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Lemmy, you misunderstood my post. I wasn't saying that Crane Wing was overpowered, I was pointing to the ridiculousness of the OP's "low" threshold by showing how much further it could be taken. You then insulted my character by saying it was a "bad build", which it obviously isn't as I will take it against any other melee build one on one.
As to Crane Wing being overpowered, its definitely not as there are many ways to beat it. My Rogue/Fighter eats it for breakfast with Improved Feint all day long as you can not use Crane Wing while flat footed. Thats just one simple example.
Lemmy, you misunderstood my post. I wasn't saying that Crane Wing was overpowered, I was pointing to the ridiculousness of the OP's "low" threshold by showing how much further it could be taken. You then insulted my character by saying it was a "bad build", which it obviously isn't as I will take it against any other melee build one on one.
Read again, dude. All I said was that I didn't see anything OP in it. And I didn't. I couldn't even if I wanted to. You didn't post anything about your character, except for a bunch of disconnected numbers.
You can claim to have awesome <whatever>, but without posting a build, that's mostly empty words, since I can't know what your character sacrificed to be awesome at whatever it is that you say he's awesome.
At those levels that is pretty normal.ok, for those of you who are saying that Monks are unable to do damage and are bad fighers even if built properly, I would like to point you over to the thread "Monks are better than fighters at higher levels" and find any of Lormyr's builds....lormyr's builds were 20th level characters who's main power was their WBL. Even he admitted that.
Unless you're a caster. Then you have enough reality-breaking powers of your own. :)
he way I DM it is as follows -
Crane Style Works vs:
* Melee Weapons (i.e. swords/axes/etc..)
* Unarmed Strikes
* Melee Natural Attacks
* Melee Combat Maneuvers
* Melee Touch Attacks (Such as Shocking Grasp)
* Melee Siege Weapons (Such as Battering Rams)
* Alchemical Splash Weapons (such as holy water)
Crane Style Doesn't work vs:
* Ranged Attacks
* Ranged Touch Attacks (such as scorching ray)
* Ranged Combat Manuevers
* Ranged Natural Attacks (such as spines from a bandersnatch)
* Bullets
* Ranged Siege Weapons
* Giant Boulders (see giants)
Deflect Arrows Doesn't Works vs:
* Melee Weapons (i.e. swords/axes/etc..)
* Unarmed Strikes
* Melee Natural Attacks
* Melee Combat Maneuvers
* Melee Touch Attacks (such as Shocking Grasp)
* Melee Siege Weapons (Such as Battering Rams)
Deflect Arrows works vs:
* Ranged Attacks
* Ranged Touch Attacks (Such as Scorching Ray, deflecting the whole volley or every part aimed at you)
* Ranged Combat Maneuvers
* Ranged Natural Attacks (such as spines from a bandersnatch)
* Bullets
* Ranged Siege Weapons
* Giant Boulders (see giants)
* Alchemical Splash weapons, (Such as flasks of acid)
Deflect Arrows and Crane style, i also allow to be used with shields or light weapons, to represent a blocking or parrying motion
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@Lemmy...
Claiming a feat is unbalanced because it's part of an unbalanced build makes no sense. Especially when the build is not even that good!
Disconnected numbers? No, it was plainly laid out with complete list of feats, traits and class levels. Just because you expect some specific formatting does not make the information presented nonviable.
Also, I never even came close to using the word "awesome". if you want to dishonestly misrepresent other peoples words, then of course you will be dismissed.
I strongly disagree with deflect arrows working vs touch attacks and siege weapons, boulders, and splash weapons.... that's just sillyness.
Then fluff it as the Monk simply getting out of the way of the projectile instead of actually deflecting it.
Personally, I don't think it's any sillier than a lot of stuff characters do all the time...
I have never understand "A lot of thing are silly lets ahe more silly things"
And I never understood the "this fantasy character whose skills and abilities are far beyond anything any mortal has ever done or will ever do should be realistic". IMO the real silliness is when people complain about stuff like 8th level characters being "unrealistic".
Of course they are unrealistic!
There's nothing even remotely close to their abilities in the real world. It's silly to expect a guy who is supposed to be as powerful as Hercules to be bound to real world physics. If my CMB is high enough, let me trip the Gargantuan creature, because if I have a CMB that high, than I'm tripping it in a extremely heroic way that is nowhere near what even the most skilled humans in the real world can do. That's what having that incredibly high CMB means!
The difference between "silly" and "awesome" varies from player to player. Realism makes no sense when it's applied only to a few things. Why is magic allowed to do every g!@#@%n thing a designer can think of, but a 20th level warrior, who is supposedly one step away from being as skilled as Gorum himself must still be incapable of straying too far from the realm of what we, real-world low level commoners, are capable of?
And "Because it's magic" is a not a real answer.
For example, in this kind of threads there are always argumetns like "this is not Op casue spellcasting".
it does bother me that people complain about stuff like this instead of far more troublesome issues, such as high level spell casting. Add that to the fact that so many players seem to think anything moderately better than a poorly optimized Fighter is OP and that mundane characters being able to do anything other than hit stuff is silly and therefore not appropriate to the game and you start to understand why I dismiss most claims about feats and classes being unbalanced.
Sometings are great deeds of prowess like tripping that huge gian, others things like TWF guns for 12 attacks with the use weapon chord are just silly.
But isn't that a great deed too? Shooting 12 bullets in 6 seconds?
TWF pistoleros are a common trope. That's just how players managed to make it playable.
I agree here, there are other things much more problematics in PF.
I would prefer some tone down to the most silly, overpowered, broken options in pathfinder instead of more silly broken options.
We can meet somewhere in the middle. I hate how limited mundane characters are, and I hate how absurd spell casting is at higher levels. There is a middle ground, though. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.
I want high level mundane characters to be fantastic. I want them to to all sorts of extraordinary stuff. That's what being high level means!
A high level warrior should not be Commoner+. He should be able to do all sort of impossible stuff. The game is designed to mirror different levels of power, from gritty adventures to reality-breaking demigods. If you don't like one or another, just don't play at that level.
Being able to simulate a large variety of power scales is a strength of the system, not a weakness.
Having reality-breaking powers at higher level doesn't stop you from playing "realistic" adventures (see E6). And having "barely better than a commoner" levels doesn't stop you from playing at godly levels of power (see any high level campaign). It merely gives you the option to do both.
The problem is applying different degrees of "realism" (which influences players' power and freedom to influence the game) to different characters (and consequentely, different players).
Sometings are great deeds of prowess like tripping that huge gian, others things like TWF guns for 12 attacks with the use weapon chord are just silly.But isn't that a great deed too? Shooting 12 bullets in 6 seconds?
TWF pistoleros are a common trope. That's just how players managed to make it playable.
With revolvers, not with more ancient guns where he have also to reload afther every shot.
I suppose everyone have their personal line for sillyness. Maybe shoting, maybe shot, drop, reload shot, drop, recover first weapon , shot, relaod, repeat... Is not silly to you but it is definitely silly for me.
to me
firing 20something shots a round with a pair of black powder pistols is no sillier than a wizard taking a handful of bat feces and creating a 45 foot diameter globe of fire from 600 feet away with it. with perfect tactical precision
a monk using deflect arrows to deflect a ballista bolt, a giant's thrown boulder, a magic missile spell from awizard, or a scorching ray spell from a powerful sorcerer, is no sillier, than a cleric walking on air, crouching tiger/hidden dragon style for a minimum of an hour per casting
With revolvers, not with more ancient guns where he have also to reload after every shot.
So...? Should I not be allowed to do that because I like to imagine my character using pistols? Flavor them as revolvers, then, if it's such a stretch for you. As long as it's possible, who cares if your description of the actions includes weapon cords or not?
I suppose everyone have their personal line for sillyness. Maybe shoting, maybe shot, drop, reload shot, drop, recover first weapon , shot, relaod, repeat... Is not silly to you but it is definitely silly for me.
IMHO, that doesn't make even the top 10 silliest things in the game. I can imagine a few ways a super-skilled human could do that. Admittedly, no real human would be able to pull it off, but then again, when you're making 12 attacks a round, you're already far above what a real human can do.
Sometings are great deeds of prowess like tripping that huge gian, others things like TWF guns for 12 attacks with the use weapon chord are just silly.But isn't that a great deed too? Shooting 12 bullets in 6 seconds?
TWF pistoleros are a common trope. That's just how players managed to make it playable.
With revolvers, not with more ancient guns where he have also to reload afther every shot.
I suppose everyone have their personal line for sillyness. Maybe shoting, maybe shot, drop, reload shot, drop, recover first weapon , shot, relaod, repeat... Is not silly to you but it is definitely silly for me.
You really think that people would be crunching for a method of reloading their guns if they could just use a revolver? I mean really all of this happened because people were like, "Oh I can't use a revolver? Great now I have to think up a way of shooting every round because no one likes to waste their whole turn just reloading."
I think of it as them literally juggling their weaponry and ammo.
The fact that you suggest deflect arrows in your games to also deflect spells shows me where you lay on balance issues.
I would be surprised then if your monks start deflecting magic missiles.
when i run a game, Yes, Monks can deflect magic missiles
they can deflect one arrow or one spell volley per round
either one spell and all it's associated rays and missiles that were aimed at you
or one arrow, or in the case of attacks that fire multiple arrows as a standard action or single attack (such as the arrows fired from a single manyshot action)
i lay in favor of beefing up monks because they need all the help they can get.
there aren't enough foes using bows, crossbows, or guns on a regular basis, to justify deflect arrows being truly worth a feat
i also allow a low prerequisite improved weapon finesse feat that allows Dex to damage with light weapons (instead of STR) and another easy access feat for using Strength to determine hit points, stabilization rolls, Con Checks and fortitude saves instead of Constitution.
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lol...
So one of the only solution a caster has to a monk, say ray of enervation, will never land on a monk unless it's two casters ganging up on him...
The monk may need beefing up, but it isn't in avoiding spells, out of every martial character in the game with the possible exception of the paladin it's the best situated to handle spells.
If you want to make a game for casters to struggle in and monks to be the ubermensch, I guess that's the way to do it.
lol...
So one of the only solution a caster has to a monk, say ray of enervation, will never land on a monk unless it's two casters ganging up on him...
The monk may need beefing up, but it isn't in avoiding spells, out of every martial character in the game with the possible exception of the paladin it's the best situated to handle spells.
If you want to make a game for casters to struggle in and monks to be the ubermensch, I guess that's the way to do it.
the fighter doesn't need a damage boost either, but that is what paizo gave it
the deflect arrows also works against siege weapons, firearms, and thrown boulders
giving a defensive edge against warriors with superior range
the dex to damage feat helps a monk's damage output and the str to HP feat, helps STR focused martials with HP and survivability by giving them an extra dump stat.
but yes, monks can withstand a ray of enervation every round unphased.
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My monks always take accelerated drinker and carry potions of silence. They buy boots of Feather Step at the earliest opportunity.
Nothing brings the lovely aroma of an arcane caster generating his own fireball material components like a 70' per round monk that ignores difficult terrain, has a 20' radius bubble of silence about him, and a willingness to play Combat Chiropractor.
"So, pinned. No material or somatic components. Silenced. No verbal components. Silent Spell and Eschew Materials are wasted feats. By the way, I've inserted your left foot into your right ear canal."
The ability to deflect rays and other touch attacks is too powerful IMO, especially considering the investment is a single feat. A character with that is all but immune to ranged spells. That's a huge jump in survivability.
Monks do need some help, but I'd say that's too much, and fails to address any real issue with the class.
hell just giving them pounce fixes alot of things with them... or free weapon focus...
IMHO, there should be a diference between full attacking and movement+ attack.
I woudl be happy if the monk coudl do just half of his normal FoB attacks when moving. Much better than one attack, not that good as stand still and fight.
Just (as has been suggested) give him pounce but do not let him use flurry of blows with it. That way they can make their normal full attack when moving (with monk BAB) or they can stand still and do their flurry.
I kust changed the language of flurry of blows from "as a full attck action" to "as an attack"
A lot of people cares. Particulary for me, I just can not stand the reflavoring thing.
Why? Why can't you stand reflavoring? Why do you care what I imagine for my character? How does that have any influence in your game? Instead of forbidding people of doing something because you don't like it, why not let the rules allow it all and let each player/GM/group decide what they want?
I honestly don't understand this thinking. If you don't like something, just don't use it or reflavor it to your liking. Don't remove it from the game. I don't like Cavaliers, but you don't see me saying they should be removed from the game. I just don't use them.IMHO, If does not matters if there are 20 other silliers things, that would not make this less silly in my eyes. I would prefer a game with less silliness insteads of one with more.
The problem is when one player can do all sorts of fantastic stuff and the other has to stay grounded on reality. It's unfair and unbalanced. And it hurts the fun of a lot of us. Realism is not realistic if it only applies to a few things.
I'll say it again:
Being able to simulate a large variety of power scales is a strength of the system, not a weakness.
And now we just have gunslingers buying a certain magic item so now they get reloads and don't have to do some kick ass juggling.
We now you would prefer a very diferent game for pathfinder. That is fine, I also would like to play a game like that, I am just happy it is not pathfinder.
I suppose everyone have their personal line for sillyness. Maybe shoting, maybe shot, drop, reload shot, drop, recover first weapon , shot, relaod, repeat... Is not silly to you but it is definitely silly for me.to me
firing 20something shots a round with a pair of black powder pistols is no sillier than a wizard taking a handful of bat feces and creating a 45 foot diameter globe of fire from 600 feet away with it. with perfect tactical precision
a monk using deflect arrows to deflect a ballista bolt, a giant's thrown boulder, a magic missile spell from awizard, or a scorching ray spell from a powerful sorcerer, is no sillier, than a cleric walking on air, crouching tiger/hidden dragon style for a minimum of an hour per casting
if you want a low powered game bound by Realism
Why don't you play any of the following
E6?
Savage Worlds?
GURPS?
or any one of various other systems that are tailored to lower, more realistic power levels?
pathfinder, is literally built for players to climb several tiers, and levels 7+, hell, even 9+ are literally built to be on such a mythic power scale, it gets quite silly
if you don't want hyper silly pathfinder characters, ban all levels higher than 6, and all non-animal monsters with a CR higher than 2 or 3.
For me the problem is no that others can do fantastic stuff. For eample I like that magic can not be replicated by mundane means, that is the point of calling it magic.
Te problem is when someone decided to make magic the best option.
I like mundane classes to be mundane. I would like that mundane classes have mundane means to deal with problems. I would like a mechanic for the fighter to climb in the back of the giant, I would like a mechanic for a barbarian to trip with his bare hands a storm giant. I would like that the cavalier could hold closed the dragon maws in order to negate its breath weapons.
But instead of great cinematics deed we have* a silly mechanic in order to do every round a boring full attack
EDIT: *Had!, the last FAQ changed weapon chord.
i'd like mechanics for these cinematic deeds as well, i'd like that magic be less of a way to cheat mundane training.
an invisibility spell, should not be enough to invalidate 20th levels of rogue. nor should a 2nd level blur spell, make you immune to the only offensive ability possessed by a 20th level rogue
a spider climb spell, should not invalidate 20 levels worth of climbing ranks
a fly spell, should not be outright superior to investing even 9 ranks in acrobatics for gaining height. i think with 9 ranks, you should be capable of cinematic superhuman vertical leaps
I like that diferent things have diferent mecanics. I like that some options have their strehnt and thier weekness, I liek that the choise matters. It woudl be boring to reflavor greataxes and longsword to deal 1d6 18-20/x2. Uniformity is boring.
Why would this be more boring than what's currently in the game?
First, everyone with a full BAB takes Power Attack. By 4th level, the static modifiers are usually twice the average damage of the weapon. This is a disparity that only broadens with time.
I play Dungeon World; a character's class determines how much damage they can do in melee; fighters get to roll a d10; there are a handful of weapon specific modifiers, but they are usually less important than the die size.
Fighters can also take a special ability that lets them roll an additional d4 with their d10 of damage.
What this means is that you describe the cool thing you're doing, rather than try to flip all the switches to get your Kewl Powers to Work.
I like that diferent things have diferent mecanics. I like that some options have their strehnt and thier weekness, I liek that the choise matters. It woudl be boring to reflavor greataxes and longsword to deal 1d6 18-20/x2. Uniformity is boring.
But by banning refluff you're only increasing uniformity.
Having the option to refluff doesn't mean yo have to do it. It also doesn't mean everyone has to refluff everything the exactly same way.Removing option, mechanical or descriptive, only decreases variety.
And I also like that the mechanic reflect somewhat how the weapon/combat style worked in real life. I am not asking for total realism (that woudl be silly for a game), it is just that TWF with ancient guns is absurd to my eyes.
It's absurd. For the real world. For a guy who is literally more skilled than any human who ever existed... Not so much. And you're not making 12 shots by 5th level.
It's a good thing that absurd stuff can be achieved at those levels where your character is at least as powerful as mythological heroes. (And that's about 8th level or so, not 15+).If you don't like high-powered games, don't play them. Nothing is forcing you to go all the way up to epic. And nothing is forcing you to start at 1st level. We can play at whatever power level we want.
For me the problem is no that others can do fantastic stuff. For eample I like that magic can not be replicated by mundane means, that is the point of calling it magic.
There are all sorts of stories about non-caster characters doing amazing deeds. I don't mind if magic can do stuff mundanes can't, but it shouldn't be the only thing to break the limits of realism. A 15th level character should be able to do fantastic stuff, no matter what class she belongs too, because that's what being 15th level means!
A 15th level fighter is not just one of our most skilled warriors of the real world. He is so far and beyond that even the top 10 warriors of all of human history wouldn't be able to defeat him. Because he's way more powerful than any real human ever was or will ever be. A T-Rex is a minor nuisance to him. And a tiger presents as much risk as a house cat. because being high-level means you're no longer limited to what real world physics allow you to do.You can't complain a 12th level character is silly because she can do impossible stuff. That's the point of being a 12th level character!
I don't really care since it was a one-shot, but what do you think (apart from churlish tantrums from both sides) ? Is Crane Style really unbalanced?
Depends on your point of view. Compared to everything else out there? Probably not. Compared to most other combat feat trees? Probably so. Compared to the CR of most monsters? Definitely. And there's the real problem. The CR system is out of date. Most even moderately optimized characters are unbalanced at this point, and consequently everything is too easy. We all know power creep is real, so when are the devs going to give us a system of threat determination that responds to that reality?
Depends on your point of view. Compared to everything else out there? Probably not. Compared to most other combat feat trees? Probably so. Compared to the CR of most monsters? Definitely. And there's the real problem. The CR system is out of date. Most even moderately optimized characters are unbalanced at this point, and consequently everything is too easy. We all know power creep is real, so when are the devs going to give us a system of threat determination that responds to that reality?I don't really care since it was a one-shot, but what do you think (apart from churlish tantrums from both sides) ? Is Crane Style really unbalanced?
How is it OP compared to the CR of most monsters?
Monsters with a single hit are fairly uncommon at ANY CR.
And the only monsters this is even vaguely OP against are those kinds of monsters.
Depends on your point of view. Compared to everything else out there? Probably not. Compared to most other combat feat trees? Probably so. Compared to the CR of most monsters? Definitely. And there's the real problem. The CR system is out of date. Most even moderately optimized characters are unbalanced at this point, and consequently everything is too easy. We all know power creep is real, so when are the devs going to give us a system of threat determination that responds to that reality?I don't really care since it was a one-shot, but what do you think (apart from churlish tantrums from both sides) ? Is Crane Style really unbalanced?
How is it OP compared to the CR of most monsters?
Monsters with a single hit are fairly uncommon at ANY CR.
And the only monsters this is even vaguely OP against are those kinds of monsters.
the only single attack monsters i can think of are
NPCs of martial classes below 5th level with a 2handed weapon
T-Rexes
Wolves and other Wolf-Like or Canine Creatures
Boars and other Gore Based Chargers
Sharks
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Any opponent whose offense depends on a single melee big-hit to be a threat is not worth CR 4+.
Any opponent whose offense depends on a single melee big-hit to be a threat is not worth CR 4+.
Even going as low as CR 2 about half the enemies have at least 2 attacks. I know because I drew up a big ol' list of 'em last time a Crane Style thread popped up.