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I would love to see some more attention given to higher level play.
It may not sell as well but every now and then it would be nice to see something.
I have found a few high level modules and I understand the problem with putting the stat blocks in there. I'm sure there is a solution out there.
I don't need that many modules. Just one a year.
I got a 14th level group in a pbp, so I'm always down for high level content.
My other pbp, it's at 4th level now; I'm running Carrion Crown, but when I feel like adding in an encounter it's mindblowing how much easier building a lower level encounter is than higher level....
But,....money talks, and it the money was there, they'd be churning out hi level stuff I reckon.
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In my opinion, the sweet spot is 5-9ish. As I prefer casters, I feel at that range I have enough options to make it enjoyable, while not so many as to overwhelm me at times. It's enjoyable to take it beyond this range at times, especially if it's leveled that way, but I feel once beyond this point the sheer number of options can be difficult to deal with.
It also seems that it becomes more difficult to present challenges as a GM. The PCs have so many options to deal with situations, a pre written module just can't cover them all. Most would have to be adapted to what the group can do.
The Adventure Paths I've seen thus far seem okay, but I haven't experienced them at the high end to see how well Paizo handles them. Which would give me a better look at what a high end module would entail.
A module a year though, it doesn't seem like much. But I'm not sure how many modules Paizo releases in a year, considering the amount of work that is devoted to APs.
So in summary, I wouldn't be too interested myself, no. Though that's just my opinion on it.
Have you considered looking at 3pp modules for high level?
Rite Publishing has the setting Coloseum Morpheuon, set in the Dream lands and is designed for adventures from 15th to 20th level. The setting is supported with 20 additional supplements, though mostly NPCs of high level to fit the land of Dreams.
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Have you considered looking at 3pp modules for high level?
Rite Publishing has the setting Coloseum Morpheuon, set in the Dream lands and is designed for adventures from 15th to 20th level. The setting is supported with 20 additional supplements, though mostly NPCs of high level to fit the land of Dreams.
I am very weary of 3p products because of some of the balance issues.
That's fair, so you need to read the reviews and look at other products from Rite Publishing. Steve Russell of Rite Publishing also includes elements from Super Genius Games, and other publishers works with Coloseum Morpheuon. (And consider that many of the 3pp's are also freelancers for Paizo products sometimes - Steve created some of the monsters for Jade Regent AP - me too with the Gazetteer for Jade Regent #6 - would Paizo hire us if they thought we created unbalanced material?)
Rite Publishing, as well as many of the 3pp for Pathfinder build very balanced rules and mechanics - as balanced as Paizo, IMO.
This isn't the age of 3x 3pp's which featured lots OP abiliites. PF 3pps tend to be much more professional and cognizant of what is OP and what is not.
I am a freelancer, developer, cartographer for Rite Publishing, and if I thought their mechanical creations were leery, I wouldn't work for him.
I can say, almost every 3pp product I've purchased for PF has been balanced and fits within the mechanical power level of existing Paizo mechanics.
I think your leeriness with 3pp is unfounded in PF 3pp products. Instead of having a preset opinion, look at the products and see for yourself.
I'm down for more high level content.
Me too. I rather like being Epic.
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I'd go as far as saying that no PF 3pp wants the label 'creator of unbalanced, nor over powered abilities', to the point that our concern for balance is greater than Paizo's own concern for it.
High-level adventures are a pain to write.
First, you have to challenge people who can cast Find The Path, Teleport in, use True Seeing, are constantly flying, probably even through stone. High-level characters are not Legolas, they are not even Spiderman, they're Justice League A-listers.
Of course, you can spend a page or two coming up with b@#$#+#$ reasons why all the powers that define high-level play don't work. In which case you suck, and people should point and laugh of you for trying to write when you clearly can't.
Then, there's the difference in capability. One level 2 beatstick looks pretty much like another. One level 10 Wizard is the PF iconic pregen who uses nothing but Evocation blasts. The other will make 80% of enemies lose the fight before their first action. You might have a Cleric who thinks casting Empowered Cure Critical Wounds is a valid use of a standard action in a CR 14 fight.
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Sweet spot to me is where the game works best. The highest levels will never be the sweet spot. In fact the APs calling it quits around 14-16 is just right by me. I hope they give yall some high level goodness and epic rules someday. I dont want to be completely selfish but highest level 3.5? No thanks.
High-level adventures are a pain to write.
First, you have to challenge people who can cast Find The Path, Teleport in, use True Seeing, are constantly flying, probably even through stone. High-level characters are not Legolas, they are not even Spiderman, they're Justice League A-listers.
Of course, you can spend a page or two coming up with b~!%$&++ reasons why all the powers that define high-level play don't work. In which case you suck, and people should point and laugh of you for trying to write when you clearly can't.
Then, there's the difference in capability. One level 2 beatstick looks pretty much like another. One level 10 Wizard is the PF iconic pregen who uses nothing but Evocation blasts. The other will make 80% of enemies lose the fight before their first action. You might have a Cleric who thinks casting Empowered Cure Critical Wounds is a valid use of a standard action in a CR 14 fight.
I would never suggest that an adventure cancel out the abilities of high level characters. That would defeat the purpose of gaining high levels. I would like to see an adventure embrace those abilities. The Gates of Firestorm Peak (2E) did this. I have seen other adventures do it as well. Make them use their resources. Don't prevent them.
Well I wouldn't even say just more high level modules but more high level content.
I remember back in 2nd edition they have the book about high level campaigns and I believe something like that would be great, not an epic level handbook but a book dealing with higher level campaigns.
There has been some discussion about releasing this kind of thing as a sort of 'prelude' to epic rules. Personally, I think it would be a good idea - I have zero interest in high level play (let alone epic levels) and that's largely due to my perception of those games taking ages in preparation and gaming time for single encounters. A book which taught me how to run high level campaigns would not only be good for its own sake - it would have the added benefit of building demand for epic rules amongst those not currently enthused by the prospect.
.It seems to me that lots of people find running high level games hard - plus there is the fact that the problems with creating high level modules kind of implies there will always be more call for home-built high level modules than low level ones.
high level doesn't feel more epic to me than mid level. It feels more encumbering more then anything.
I don't need more high level content in terms of class abilities, feats, spells, etc as we don't really get to use much of whats currently out there.
One of the problems I've found with high level play is that because we're all working and with families its tough for GMs to get the time to create the games so we use a lot of modules and APs, which don't go all the way to level 20. Would be great to see one that did, but I'd be happy with 1-2 modules a year covering the 15-20 level range. I understand why they don't given its got a smaller audience compare to the sweet spot and hard to write to make it challenging for all groups, but some more high level adventures would be great.
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I'd like to see more high-level material myself. All the comments about preparation time are valid points, and I understand some of the complaints about it. But I look at this from two perspectives:
1) If we have rules for high level play (and we do), why not use them? If we're all going to say 'no thanks, I'll stop at 12 (or 14, or whatever)', then why did we even bother to help assemble a game that plays to level 20?
2) Game design and development is like many other crafts. You have to practice to improve. If our favorite designers and developers write more high level stuff, I imagine that they'll improve their already outstanding skills. But if all that gets written is for levels 1-10 (or whatever cutoff), then there's a certain stagnation that I'd like to avoid. And to get good quality adventures, we're going to need people who can write those favorite modules we all like to talk about to apply their talents to high level games. Will it be a bumpy road? Probably. Will it be worth it? I think it will.
I would never suggest that an adventure cancel out the abilities of high level characters. That would defeat the purpose of gaining high levels. I would like to see an adventure embrace those abilities. The Gates of Firestorm Peak (2E) did this. I have seen other adventures do it as well. Make them use their resources. Don't prevent them.This is weird for me, because I ran The Gates Of Firestorm Peak in PF a while back. The module was designed for level 5-8 2E characters, and I ran it with almost no modification for a level 6-7 Pathfinder party. It seems strange to call it a high-level module when fifth-level spells won't even enter into play.
Which one am I thinking of? I remember there was one specifically written for high level play. It's been a while since I looked at them. I might be thinking of Vortex of Madness or Labyrinth of Madness. I remember one coming out just before 3E started and it was specifically written to showcase high level play in 2E.
+1 for more high level stuff.
Maybe even a paperback book geared towards showing not how to counter the high level party but how to make it shine.
Read a novel or watch a movie about high powered character they don't find them selves shut down at every turn they need those abilities to succeed at the challenges they face.
And when they are shut down its a consistent reason and one that clearly advances the story not one the is there to drag it out or what not. i think to many GMs get hung up on the thought of Great they can teleport read minds, fly and swim in lava, guess i gotta build the whole adventure in an anti-magic bubble or it'll be over with in a matter of minutes.
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I'd love to see more content for high levels. The real draw to me is continuing to see your character grow, rather than retiring or having to shut the game down in the 14 to 16 range. I'd like to see the AP's play out to 20 or even 21-22. That would allow characters to get their capstone abilities and actually enjoy using them for a while before the campaign wraps up. If level 20 is the limit, then the highest abilities of the classes need to be reduced to the level 16 to 18 range so players actually get a chance to use them for a bit.
It could also be a self-perpetuating problem: there is little high level content because there is little interest...because there is little high level content...etc. If modules existed that brought characters up to and beyond 20, people would buy them, especially APs. That way, you get to follow one character from beginner to epic (or mythic, as the case may be) and you know that the campaign won't die out because the storyline fell apart.
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I'm also in the market for buying more adventures for high-level play. Myself and my spouse like to play above 12th level, occasionally much higher.
I look forward to whenever Paizo can produce its "mythic" rules for play above 20th, but I'll also happily pick up what I can for levels 10-20 as well. Vote with your wallet, as they say.
I have seen many class discussions about how they compare and a lot of people don't bother comparing 18 through 20th level abilities because they feel most games don't make it that far. Should Pathfinder come out with more high level material to increase the "sweet spot"?
I think it has more to do with Gaming habits then Pathfinder. It was the same in 3.5
Most games tend to get out of hand, or get old after you hit the mid levels. Players get tired of playing their characters or the DM gets tired of running or the group falls apart.
Most games dont get that high because of the group. Not the lack of content.
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I would love to see more high level content. My group does not play much beyond level 8 except for myself and one other DM. The funny thing is the group loves to play high level but the other DMs hate to run them...
I think it has to do with prep time and the ability level of the DM. You have to know the game to run at those levels.
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I have seen many class discussions about how they compare and a lot of people don't bother comparing 18 through 20th level abilities because they feel most games don't make it that far. Should Pathfinder come out with more high level material to increase the "sweet spot"?I think it has more to do with Gaming habits then Pathfinder. It was the same in 3.5
Most games tend to get out of hand, or get old after you hit the mid levels. Players get tired of playing their characters or the DM gets tired of running or the group falls apart.
Most games dont get that high because of the group. Not the lack of content.
That is why we need a DM's guide to high level play.
I have to disagree on the content part. There is lots more content that deals with the lower levels than the high levels. If people aren't interested in high level play then come out with more material that will make them interested. High level stuff doesn't sell well because there isn't that much stuff to sell. I would have some modules go from 15-20 or even 16-20.
The DM's guidebook would be the best route to go because it's like you said, games break down at high levels because a lot of DM's can't handle it. Well these guidebooks would give DM's some tips on how to run those games.
Paizo is a business, and a well-run business at that.
So, they will build things that are profitable for them. If you can show them you want more high-level stuff, they will make it.
Talking about it on the forum is FAR less effective than spending money, however.
Tips:
Buy the highest level adventures they have written.
Buy the highest level PFS scenarios available.
Buy some of the older high-level 3.5 things, like Savage Tide.
Go and buy 3PP adventures that go 1-20 (Slumbering Tsar, for example).
The message will get out, trust me.
Which one am I thinking of? I remember there was one specifically written for high level play. It's been a while since I looked at them. I might be thinking of Vortex of Madness or Labyrinth of Madness. I remember one coming out just before 3E started and it was specifically written to showcase high level play in 2E.Labyrinth of Madness is a level 15+ and I vaguely recall it being a murderous meat grinder. Firestorm Peak was late in 2E's lifecycle as you recall, but what it was designed to show off was Player's Option combat stuff - the enemies use flanking, knockdown, and in general a ton of optional combat mechanics.
That sounds right. I still think that there were more high level adventures in previous editions than now. They usually didn't shut down characters' abilities (unless it made sense for the encounter). They often required the party to have access to those abilities. I want to see more of that.
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At this point I do think the Paizo devs know that a decent amount of the fnabase want high levle material. As this is not the first thread talking about. I would like to see more high level material too. Makes me wonder though if todo the job right that we would need botha book geared toward players and DMs as opposed to ne high level book. Make two seperate products yet back more infomrmation into both products.
This isn't the chicken before the egg scenario. The lack of high level adventures isn't due to the lack of high level material, rather the majority do not want to play high level games. The Epic Handbook was one of the least sold 3x books - it's why there was never a 3.5 Epic Handbook.
If Paizo suddently started developing twice the amount of high level supplements - it wouldn't significantly increase the number of high level games to appear. It would really mean twice as much product is not being sold.
I am all for the inclusion of some high level game material to cater to those who want higher level play. An argument for some rather than none, but its not the lack of material that keeps it from growing, it's only the lack of interest. And more product will not make me nor others more interested.
Look to 3pp, if you don't trust 3pp, then you are dooming your opportunities for high level play, for those trying to provide it for you. If they get no money, you get no more product, and high level continues to be unsupported.
That is why we need a DM's guide to high level play.
I have to disagree on the content part. There is lots more content that deals with the lower levels than the high levels. If people aren't interested in high level play then come out with more material that will make them interested. High level stuff doesn't sell well because there isn't that much stuff to sell. I would have some modules go from 15-20 or even 16-20.
The DM's guidebook would be the best route to go because it's like you said, games break down at high levels because a lot of DM's can't handle it. Well these guidebooks would give DM's some tips on how to run those games.
The DM guide for high level play is a good idea. I would purchase that. The current game I am running is about to get into the higher levels and creating encounters are taking longer and longer. That would help. Honestly more Pregen Humanoid enemies with class levels would really be nice. It really gets tedious making high level NPC's once your game reaches double digits.
A guide and a source for High level NPCs (Not high CR monsters). Something like the list the SRD has but more expansive.
That is why we need a DM's guide to high level play.
I have to disagree on the content part. There is lots more content that deals with the lower levels than the high levels. If people aren't interested in high level play then come out with more material that will make them interested. High level stuff doesn't sell well because there isn't that much stuff to sell. I would have some modules go from 15-20 or even 16-20.
The DM's guidebook would be the best route to go because it's like you said, games break down at high levels because a lot of DM's can't handle it. Well these guidebooks would give DM's some tips on how to run those games.
The DM guide for high level play is a good idea. I would purchase that. The current game I am running is about to get into the higher levels and creating encounters are taking longer and longer. That would help. Honestly more Pregen Humanoid enemies with class levels would really be nice. It really gets tedious making high level NPC's once your game reaches double digits.
A guide and a source for High level NPCs (Not high CR monsters). Something like the list the SRD has but more expansive.
Already said, Rite Publishing has Coloseum Morpheuon, as well as the high level pre-statted NPCs you require, in the form of Faces of the Tarnished Souk. These are high level multiclass NPCs of mixed racial backgrounds. Most come in low, medium and high level stats. Some of these NPCs are psionicists, godlings, time thieves, taskshapers and many other exotic classes and class builds.
It's already there, no need to hope somebody creates it for you.
If Rite Publishing gets lots of sales for it's high level material, Paizo will notice and do the same. However, if you don't buy the high level material available, you'll never convince Paizo that they should...
Edit: let me add to this, that much of the Paizo official content, while developed by the likes Wes Schnieder and others, the work is done by freelancers, and very often those freelancers are the same 3pp publishers of PF material. Look at how many official Paizo products have Owen Stephens as the writer, yet Owen is one of the main people at Super Genius Games, a 3pp. Also many of the pure, non-publisher freelancers like those who make through the Superstar Contest, also do freelance work for the 3pps.
The point is, since you've mentioned being leery of 3pp's, I just wanted to instill into you the fact that many of those 3pp's are the ones creating official content for Paizo. If you trust them as Paizo content creators, why not trust them for their own publications???
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That is why we need a DM's guide to high level play.
I have to disagree on the content part. There is lots more content that deals with the lower levels than the high levels. If people aren't interested in high level play then come out with more material that will make them interested. High level stuff doesn't sell well because there isn't that much stuff to sell. I would have some modules go from 15-20 or even 16-20.
The DM's guidebook would be the best route to go because it's like you said, games break down at high levels because a lot of DM's can't handle it. Well these guidebooks would give DM's some tips on how to run those games.
The DM guide for high level play is a good idea. I would purchase that. The current game I am running is about to get into the higher levels and creating encounters are taking longer and longer. That would help. Honestly more Pregen Humanoid enemies with class levels would really be nice. It really gets tedious making high level NPC's once your game reaches double digits.
A guide and a source for High level NPCs (Not high CR monsters). Something like the list the SRD has but more expansive.
Pregen NPC's would be fantastic! I think what bogs a lot of DM's down are those custom enemies that have PC levels.
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I would love to see more high level content. My group does not play much beyond level 8 except for myself and one other DM. The funny thing is the group loves to play high level but the other DMs hate to run them...
I think it has to do with prep time and the ability level of the DM. You have to know the game to run at those levels.
Prep time is the biggest issue to me. I was pretty motivated to run to level 12 this last game, but instead I ended it after they beat the BBEGs last night, which took them to 9th level. It just gets to be too much work. Dragons and 11th level druids, groups of level 6 rangers, giant animals... all in one night of gaming. It took hours just to set up the encounters - taking away from time that I could have spent on NPCs, locations, and descriptions. I just don't have time for it.
The second biggest issue is how long it takes players to roll multiple attacks. I know you can group dice by color and roll everything together and all those tricks and blah blah blah, but player I know don't like doing that because it spoils the fun of rolling - checking the result, being excited, rolling damage while attention is on the crit die, and all that. Rolling a handful of dice and then explaining the result is boring and counter-intuitive in my opinion.
The only way I'd want high level play is if they came out with a supplement that converts multiple attacks into a simple damage bonus, and low level spell casting as an at will, make it up as you got power. For example, 11th level casters could cast any 3rd level or lower spell they know or have access to. That way, I don't have to write it down ahead of time.
Well making it simple kind of defeats the purpose of high level play.
High level play is expected to be difficult to setup and run. When we played high level in 4th edition it didn't feel like high level. It was just the same crap we were using before only with a number increase and a lot of sliding and pushing, I don't want another game like that.
Running a high level campaign in an art all on it's own and I think that's where a guide would help a lot of people.