I was looking at this Combat Maneuver and I realized that I've never seen anyone use it in game. I was wondering if it had any potential to be useful in combat. Any ideas?
For big strong melee types, it's very effective.
I find that position in combat is a big deal, and more powerful than some meager +2
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In the Faiths of Corruption book, there's some good Rovagug feats that let you do damage while stompin' over people. There's also a feat somewhere that lets you overrun as part of a charge (with intent of getting through weakies to get to what you really want to charge.) My memory is shoddy at best, so I may be horribly wrong.
My DM rules that Ride-By-Attack gives me a free overrun attempt at anyone I charge. My mount has Improved Overrun too.
Improved overrun's main purpose is to get from point A to point B where point B is beyond the enemy you are overruning. Only in the case of an enemy that isnt moving out of the way can you actually affect that enemy so don't take the feat if you are just trying to knock people prone. Do take the feat if you want to get past people while moving through their space.
- Gauss
Edit: Trample allows you to overrun without the target stepping aside (if mounted).
Overrun's language confuses me a little.
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.
Hang on a sec.
- How can you take a standard action as part of a charge? A charge is a full-round action, and you can only charge if you have a target to attack at the end of the charge.
- Is the target of the overrun different from the target of the charge? For example, can I charge the wizard in the back and, in so doing, overrun the orc in the way? If so, where do I end up? I can't make the attack at the end of the charge, as I just used up my standard action, right?
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I think it's a case of poor grammar, and the sentence is meant to be:
"As a standard action taken during your move, or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square."
Comma placement: It matters!
I would parse it as:
(As a standard action, taken during your move) OR (as part of a charge)
The first being unique in that the standard action can be taken during a Move Action
(i.e. how I wish Spring Attacked worked, so it was Vital Strike compatable)
EDIT: NINJA'D!!!
The second is pretty damn vague... 'what part of a charge'?
It doesn't say it replaces any part of the Charge, so per RAW it doesn't replace anything, it is just 'free' on top of the normal Charge, i.e. you can still attack your Charge target. Only problem with that is: you can't Charge somebody if the Charge lane isn't clear, so unless somebody Readies an Action to block you, you aren't going to have anything to Over Run. Also (as already mentioned by another poster) there's actually a Feat to let you Over-Run Enemy A on the way to Charging Enemy B (with one Charge Action)... Which indicates that whoever wrote that Feat thinks you CAN'T Over-Run one target on the way to Charging another target 'normally' (without said Feat).
RAI... I think the Over-Run is replacing the Charge's attack, and also removing the language that the attack (now Over-Run) is at the END of the Charge lane, since if that applied to Over-Run, you wouldn't actually move past the target at all. This is kind of janky because exactly what Charge rules still apply to the Over-Run aren't clear.
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I don't think I've ever seen anybody choose Improved Over-Run Feat, but it can be useful to do sometimes. If you have Reach advantage (e.g. Larger or using Lunge) than you can avoid the AoO for doing it un-Improved. Basically, Over-Run and Acrobatics have overlapping functionality (in passing thru enemy squares), Acrobatics favoring DEXtrous characters with skill points to max it out, Over-Run favoring STRong characters with full BAB (and being Large+ helps as well).
That makes sense. I suppose that means that (normally) the charge target and the overrun target are the same, and if you overrun them you can continue the move in a straight line? (Or maybe you have to stop at that point. If so, not much of an overrun.) The only real benefit I see over the overrun-during-move is the charge bonus to the overrun attempt.
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Overrun would be great if it did unarmed damage , like tackling or body checking someone to get them out of your way. It never made sense to me that overruns outcome is either they stop you or you get by, and no one gets hurt. As a maneuver, it makes more sense that by overcoming their CMD you've dealt unarmed damage, maybe armor spikes if you have them instead, and get past. If you fail, you take the unarmed damage , nonlethal, from bruising yourself trying to push past your target.
Overrun would be great if it did unarmed damage , like tackling or body checking someone to get them out of your way. It never made sense to me that overruns outcome is either they stop you or you get by, and no one gets hurt. As a maneuver, it makes more sense that by overcoming their CMD you've dealt unarmed damage, maybe armor spikes if you have them instead, and get past. If you fail, you take the unarmed damage , nonlethal, from bruising yourself trying to push past your target.
If you make their CMD + 5 you knock them prone. And with Greater Overrun or Trample you get attacks of opportunity.
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Too little for so much investment. You only hurt someone when you can push them away from you? Not when you slam into them to push past them?
1st level high school kids do more damage than a 6th level fighter who's spent three feats on the chain. And does greater overrun mean yor target provokes aoo from everyone else? Or you as well? If they only orovoje from others, it can be a useless addition when you're not near allies. But you'll still provoke attacks of opportunity from your enemies friends for all of your movement.
Overrun is more dangerous to the one executing it. And for trample you need to be a lot bigger than your targets.
The point is not to hurt the overrun target; anything you do in that respect is icing. It's to bypass them to achieve some tactical advantage, like wailing on the missile-proof caster behind the pawn. I can see where it'd be useful.
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i tried submitting a feat in 3.5 to dragon for a Tackle combat maneuver. never got traction. My point is there is no combat maneuver that will move past them and harm them. If the meager damage becomes icing on Overrun, I'd be happy. In most situations with open enough terrain, Overrun becomes too situational to be worth the extra feats. When you've got room to go around the pawn without spending your standard action, so you can attack the missile-proof caster once you reach him.
I agree that it'd be nice if, e.g., Elephant Stomp allowed you to attack and continue the charge instead of making you stop to do the attack. But them's the breaks.
I'm pretty certain that Greater Overrun does allow you to make an attack of opportunity; at least, I don't see anything preventing you from doing so in the text. So with that and Charge Through, you should be able to attack both the blocker and the main target. Whether it's worth the feat investment is up to you.
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Too little for so much investment. You only hurt someone when you can push them away from you? Not when you slam into them to push past them?
1st level high school kids do more damage than a 6th level fighter who's spent three feats on the chain. And does greater overrun mean yor target provokes aoo from everyone else? Or you as well? If they only orovoje from others, it can be a useless addition when you're not near allies. But you'll still provoke attacks of opportunity from your enemies friends for all of your movement.
Overrun is more dangerous to the one executing it. And for trample you need to be a lot bigger than your targets.
Allow me to introduce you to my Ankylosaurus.
My horse is a beast rider cavalier's dinosaur. Watch as hilarity ensues.
1(B) Endurance
1 Power Attack
2 Improved Overrun
5 Combat Reflexes
8 Charge Through
10 Greater Overrun
So by Level 10 our dinosaur will have a Strength score of about 22 If I don't gear him. With a BAB of +6 we have a base of 13 cmb. Add in our overrun feats and we have a +19. If we do this as part of a charge that adds another +2 for a 21.
That's not bad.
But we can do better. Let me show you how I ride.
Human Beast Rider Cavalier with Banner bonus racial feature type.
1 Mounted Combat
1 Power Attack
1(T) Paired Opportunist.
3 Ride By Attack
5 Furious Focus
6(B)Spirited Charge
7 Combat Reflexes
9 Lunge
9(T)Broken Wing Gambit
So by making a charge we add another +4 morale bonus to our overrun as it is an attack made as part of a charge bringing the total up to +25.
Now all this is before magic items or selecting our order or spells so realistically depending on circumstance the CMB can be much higher on said charge.
So basically the cavalier runs over a mook (who doesn't get the option of running away since it's the mount making the overrun) it provokes an AoO from the cavalier and anky. Anky has now made mook prone and stunned for party rogue to bum rape with knives. Bad guy at end of charge gets tail punked and lance stabbed.
He can overrun guys up to huge sized and did you know stunned guys are pretty easy to overrun?
The point to make here is that Overrun does not operate in a vaccum. Like every other combat maneuver ever you use it when it's advantageous to you. Overrun is great because it can let you bypass minor obstacles adn get to the target you really want to. Combine it with Charge Through and its utility is amped up immensely as can now plow through mooks.
This is really no different than any other combat maneuver. They all need extra stuff to work well.
i've never seen a build where its worth it...
better yet, i've never seen a humanoid opponent pop up in a module with the feats, in a situation that it becomes useful/enriches combat.
Barbarian build with some fighter splash for feats (Brutal Pugilist)
overbearing advance + overbearing onslought+ Greater overrun
And if you have a nice DM take Rhino Hide.
I target the squishy caster in the back
3 slobs in my way get overran knocked prone and take dmg from my dwarven waraxe + str dmg + 2d6 from armor. Im actually play testing this tomorrow and will post how well it turns out
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sorry i should be clear: i don't see the point in a Humanoid wasting feats on it. Beasts and large creatures can take Trample, and DO damage when they overrun and walk over someone. There's good value in that.
and the barbarian is good up to a point when he's not fighting humanoids, and he's fighting something with a higher CMD than he can manage. But the same barbarian can go after the squishy caster directly and probably get Pounce w/ some rage powers to do a full attack on him instead.
I haven't played it, i haven't seen it in mods, and i haven't seen anyone else playing it in ny or at conventions.
The "higher CMD" argument is a problem for literally any maneuver build. Yet people still make them, because there be more than dragons out there.
Fultor Spellbreaker not like spellcasters.
Fultor Spellbreaker not care for caster guards either.
Fultor Spellbreaker crush all in path to get at spellcaster.
Fultor Spellbreaker like crushing.
Others like to dance around.
Not Fultor Spellbreaker.
Fultor Spellbreaker take straight path.
Fultor Spellbreaker like crushing.
Crushing not so easy without overrun.
Fultor Spellbreaker rages.
Charges enemy line with surge of strength.
Smashes bodyguards in path like wheat stalks against rhino.
Weak wheat all fall before Fultor Spellbreaker.
Fultor Spellbreaker cleaves flesh of fallen with axe.
Stomps bones for good measure.
Fultor Spellbreaker say hello to spellcaster.
Meats him too.
Fultor Spellbreaker declare victory, round one.
Yet more spellcaster bodyguards prove weak.
EDIT: Darn it. Ninja'd by Death Dealer Rex.
Anky?
yup. but the barbarian , or the cavalier builds are great for that situation. you take away the anky in a dungeon, and the option goes away.
you also need 10 levels until it gets that effective.
Good thing dungeons wherein anky can't go into tend not to be big enough to fit most of the really dangerous creatures for that CR then.
Of course a Druid can just cast Reduce Animal and now I have a medium sized flanking buddy that stomps people prone for me so I can take them to pieces with a falchion.
These are nuisances, not dire situations.
As for level. All I can go is; so?
That's the deal with every combat maneuver. It requires a bit of work and investment to make work.
If you want an early overrun investment overrun monkey play a human fighter. You can get Charge Through at level 1.
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I played a Monk build that was all Panther Style related...I WANTED people to attack me, so I purposely danced around them and through them to entice the AoO from the bad guys...then would Panther Style smack them in the kisser when they did.
I used the AoO and retaliatory strikes to get in a bunch of damage for those times when I couldn't flurry. It was hella fun.
And the neat part is this tactic usually let me set up flanks and other advantageous positioning to help compensate for the Monk's 3/4 BAB.
On top of THAT, I had Mobility feat to help offset them smacking me while moving, and then the Acrobatics skill to avoid damage if they would be too powerful to take the hit in the first place.
This build was hella fun, and frankly destroyed one of the main problems that Monk haters gripe about by saying they NEVER get enough attacks in. Standing still or moving, I usually got to hit multiple times a round.
MONK POWA!!
Did I miss something? What does an ankylosaurus have to do with anything?
Did I miss something? What does an ankylosaurus have to do with anything?Ankylosaurs, like pugwampis, make everything better?
Maybe . . . an ankylowampi?
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if mobility is your intent, it would be better to go with dodge, mobility, spring attack. i havent seen anyone use bull rush, or over run maneuvers in any game i have played in 15 years.
the gm im playing with now tried to over run me, i said " i let him pass"
the gm said " you can do that? this is the worst feat ever"
everyone at the table "yep"
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Hmmmm, maybe I am misunderstanding something here but my barbarian has taken improved overrun and it seems quite effective. She'll attack her target with a charge and overrun the target at the same time. The improved overrun does not allow the target to avoid the overrun so most commonly the target gets a greatsword to the head and ends up prone on the ground. Now the target has some choices, none of them good. #1) Can get up provoking an AOO and wasting a move action. #2) Attack from the ground incurring a -4 melee attack modifier and a -4 AC modifier. #3) Use acrobatics to move 5 feet from threatened area with a 5 increase to your DC but still be prone. #4) Use Stand Up Rogue Talent and still provoke an AOO but get a full round action. What's not to like?!
P.S. I don't actually think you can charge through anyone, by overruning them, on your way to your actual target without the Charge Through feat. Even then it's only one creature your allowed to overrun on the way to your target.
Because there seems to confusion I quote under the Improved Overrun feat: "Targets of your overrun attempt may not chose to avoid you."
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if mobility is your intent, it would be better to go with dodge, mobility, spring attack. i havent seen anyone use bull rush, or over run maneuvers in any game i have played in 15 years.
the gm im playing with now tried to over run me, i said " i let him pass"
the gm said " you can do that? this is the worst feat ever"
everyone at the table "yep"
Mobility is not the sole intent, but is used primarily to provoke AoO from the bad guys intentionally to riposte via Panther Style.
If you were referring to my Monk, that is.
I figured the intent of the feat was to allow you to better get past people and to get to other people/objectives they are trying to prevent you from getting to.
The only other alternatives to overruning are incapacitating those in your way, or trying to go around, over or under, all of which usually involve a LOT more effort.
if mobility is your intent, it would be better to go with dodge, mobility, spring attack. i havent seen anyone use bull rush, or over run maneuvers in any game i have played in 15 years.
Hey now, don't knock bull rush unless your combats are completely lacking in tactical terrain. You can save everybody a lot of grief by bull rushing someone off of a cliff, into their own wall of fire, into their ally's blade barrier. . . . You can't sidestep a bull rush like you can an overrun.
if mobility is your intent, it would be better to go with dodge, mobility, spring attack. i havent seen anyone use bull rush, or over run maneuvers in any game i have played in 15 years.
the gm im playing with now tried to over run me, i said " i let him pass"
the gm said " you can do that? this is the worst feat ever"
everyone at the table "yep"
OK. Confused regarding the situation in this post...
Overrun is a Combat Manueuver...so in order to "defend" against this (allowing attacker to pass by) isn't the PC in the example suppose to make a Combat Maneuver Defense (CMD) roll???
<Looks up CM & CMD in Core Rulebook p 199>
Withholding two cents until situation is verified,
Rom
if mobility is your intent, it would be better to go with dodge, mobility, spring attack. i havent seen anyone use bull rush, or over run maneuvers in any game i have played in 15 years.
the gm im playing with now tried to over run me, i said " i let him pass"
the gm said " you can do that? this is the worst feat ever"
everyone at the table "yep"
OK. Confused regarding the situation in this post...
Overrun is a Combat Manueuver...so in order to "defend" against this (allowing attacker to pass by) isn't the PC in the example suppose to make a Combat Maneuver Defense (CMD) roll???
<Looks up CM & CMD in Core Rulebook p 199>
Withholding two cents until situation is verified,
Rom
Without Improved Overrun the target may choose to let you pass. However with Improved Overrun that option is removed.
Without Improved Overrun the target may choose to let you pass. However with Improved Overrun that option is removed.if mobility is your intent, it would be better to go with dodge, mobility, spring attack. i havent seen anyone use bull rush, or over run maneuvers in any game i have played in 15 years.
the gm im playing with now tried to over run me, i said " i let him pass"
the gm said " you can do that? this is the worst feat ever"
everyone at the table "yep"
OK. Confused regarding the situation in this post...
Overrun is a Combat Manueuver...so in order to "defend" against this (allowing attacker to pass by) isn't the PC in the example suppose to make a Combat Maneuver Defense (CMD) roll???
<Looks up CM & CMD in Core Rulebook p 199>
Withholding two cents until situation is verified,
Rom
Still confused..
Combat Maneuvers (pg 198 CRB): Bull Rush, Disarm, Grapple, Overrun, Sunder and Trip.
In order to "defend against" these maneuvers one needs to roll their CMD...yes/no???
The way I read it:
WITHOUT Improved Overrun the target PC "lets you pass". However, Overrun is a Combat Maneuver. One still needs to make a CMD Roll...yes/no???
WITH Improved Overrun (pg. 127 CRB) the target has no option to avoid. No CMD roll allowed.
I have two cents buring a hole in muh pocket while scratching muh head,
Rom
In order to "defend against" these maneuvers one needs to roll their CMD...yes/no???
The way I read it:
WITHOUT Improved Overrun the target PC "lets you pass". However, Overrun is a Combat Maneuver. One still needs to make a CMD Roll...yes/no???
WITH Improved Overrun (pg. 127 CRB) the target has no option to avoid. No CMD roll allowed.
I have two cents buring a hole in muh pocket while scratching muh head,
Rom
No.
Combat Maneuvers are done by the attacker making a d20 roll + CMB vs the CMD of the target. The CMD is the equivalent to AC in a normal attack.
The opposed rolls were 3.5 rules.
The target of an overun maneuver can decide to let the attack by or try to resist them - it's their choice. If the attacker has Improved Overun, they the defender no longer has a choice, they will be subject to the overun.
In order to "defend against" these maneuvers one needs to roll their CMD...yes/no???
The way I read it:
WITHOUT Improved Overrun the target PC "lets you pass". However, Overrun is a Combat Maneuver. One still needs to make a CMD Roll...yes/no???
WITH Improved Overrun (pg. 127 CRB) the target has no option to avoid. No CMD roll allowed.
I have two cents buring a hole in muh pocket while scratching muh head,
Rom
No.
Combat Maneuvers are done by the attacker making a d20 roll + CMB vs the CMD of the target. The CMD is the equivalent to AC in a normal attack.
The opposed rolls were 3.5 rules.
The target of an overun maneuver can decide to let the attack by or try to resist them - it's their choice. If the attacker has Improved Overun, they the defender no longer has a choice, they will be subject to the overun.
Ok, I think I get it now. The DC = the Target's CMD. An attack roll + CMB is made and needs to =/< the CMD to have the intended effect.
For some reason muh mind thought CMD is an actual roll. Although the OP didn't mention a roll and I thought all the PC had to do was say "I let him pass".
Here ya go. My two cents worth,
Rom
Without Improved Overrun:
The attacker (person executing the Overrun) announces it and moves.
The defender has a choice...allow the attacker to pass or make an AOO.
Allow you to pass: no checks made nothing happens beyond your movement.
AOO: the attacker recieves an AOO and then makes a CMB check to compare against the defender's CMD. Success means that the attacker moves forward. Success by 5 or more means the defender is knocked prone AND the attacker moves forward.
With Improved Overrun:
The defender has no choice and no AOO.
Attacker makes CMB check and compares against the defender's CMD. Success indicates the attacker moves through. Success by 5 or more indicates the attacker moves through AND knocks the defender prone.
- Gauss
Hmmmm reading it some more, the Greater overrun seems to imply that you can overrun multiple targets but I don't see any way to do this. I've checked threads but there was never a resolution on this matter. Has anyone heard of a resolution regarding multiple overruns in a round? - Gauss
Regular Overrun:
You can choose one target and, during your move action (using up your standard action in the process) or as part of your charge action, can attempt to overrun him (you still need a clear straight line to charge the target). The target is given the option to allow you to pass without a roll. If they choose to stay in your way, it's a CMB vs CMD roll. If you win, you move through the target's space to as far as your remaining move will allow, or whenever you choose to stop moving, whichever comes first. If your CMB roll beats the CMD by 5+ your target is knocked prone.
Attempting this provokes an attack of opportunity.
(tl;dr - The high-strength character's version of an acrobatics check. Better because you can knock the target prone, worse because you provoke an AoO even if you succeed.)
Improved Overrun:
No longer provoke an AoO when attempting an overrun. Opponent cannot choose to allow you to pass. +2 to CMB attempts to overrun, and to CMD against others attempting to overrun you.
(tl;dr - Costs you a feat, but is now, in every way, superior to an acrobatics check.)
Greater Overrun:
Additional +2 to CMB checks to overrun (stacks with Imp. Overrun's +2). Now when you knock your target prone, they provoke an AoO when they fall.
(tl;dr - Bigger bonus and a free attack when you succeed.)
Barreling Overrun:
When moving in a straight line, you may attempt to overrun any number of opponents in your path. If you fail one of your attempts, your movement stops. Feat may be taken by animals.
(tl;dr - Normally, you can only overrun one creature. No longer. If your animal companion isn't smart enough to learn any feat, it can still learn this one.)
*Note, this is a 3rd Party Feat, so some GMs will likely not allow it.
Charge Through:
Normally you cannot charge with a creature in your path. Now you can charge and, as a free action taken as part of the charge, attempt to overrun that silly creature who's in your path. If you fail the CMB, your charge stops. (Not as good as Barreling Overrun. If your GM is okay with 3rd Party Feats, take it instead of Charge Through.)
Hope this helps clear things up. ;)
Neo2151: I agree with what you posted except for the niggling little reference to multiple enemies in Greater Overrun. However, while there is insufficient rules clarity in Greater Overrun to change how Overrun works I do think it is a source of confusion.
- Gauss
The way you can be sure that Greater Overrun does not allow multiple attempts is because you know that the Overrun maneuver either takes up a simple action to perform or may only be performed as part of a charge (following all the normal rules for Simple actions or Charge actions). No text in the Improved or Greater feats changes this.
The feat could have been worded a bit better, but it's honestly a stretch to assume that because the feat description uses plural words that you can now break the rules on action types.
*Edited for clarity.