A lot of the movie-verse is based on tropes of the Ultimates line of comics, especially in terms of costuming but also in terms of some bits of origin stories. I'm no Ultimates universe expert so I couldn't run down the list for you, but I'm sure the intarwebz will provide if you are interested in researching the point.
AUGH STUPID FREEHOLD!!
How could I forget this part!!!
Thanks for the quick reminder.
Wait, people are taking yellowdingo seriously?
What's wrong with you all?
Hell, by comparison, the Avengers has more verisimilitude.
It has been a very long standard in Marvel that these are not gods. Sort like Mephistro(sp?) is not really the Devil. Just a very powerful dinemsional being with mystical powers and a use for human souls.
Now that might have changed since I laste read comics( in the 90's)...
Again, define "gods".
I find it hard to come up with a definition that would include as normally treated in Mythology, but not include Marvel's Asgardians. (Or Olympians or any of the other pantheons that have shown up.)They are not God in the Christian sense, if that's what you mean. Nor is Mephisto the Devil.
Both DC and Marvel have tread very carefully throughout their entire existence when it comes to this subject, clearly defining most anything that could possibly construed as treading on the toes of modern religions as secular/scientific/extra-dimensional-but-not-THE-(insert religious figure here.)
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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An early issue of the original New Mutants series had Amara Aquila (Magma) praying to Hercules and having him appear in person in response to her call. At the end of the issue, she and Roberto DaCosta (Sunspot), who is Catholic Christian, had a bit of a theological conversation, something to the effect of belief in a god who appears physically vs. one that doesn't and which involves the stronger faith.
Of course, Cap's line from the movie as he jumps out of the quinjet is absolutely priceless.
Cap: There's only one God, ma'am, and I'm pretty sure he doesn't dress like that.
An early issue of the original New Mutants series had Amara Aquila (Magma) praying to Hercules and having him appear in person in response to her call. At the end of the issue, she and Roberto DaCosta (Sunspot), who is Catholic Christian, had a bit of a theological conversation, something to the effect of belief in a god who appears physically vs. one that doesn't and which involves the stronger faith.
Of course, Cap's line from the movie as he jumps out of the quinjet is absolutely priceless.
** spoiler omitted **
I thought that one line just summed up Steve Rogers.
Also the implication that Tony Stark continually had Cap held up to him as a role model in his childhood explains a lot off the tension between them
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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An early issue of the original New Mutants series had Amara Aquila (Magma) praying to Hercules and having him appear in person in response to her call. At the end of the issue, she and Roberto DaCosta (Sunspot), who is Catholic Christian, had a bit of a theological conversation, something to the effect of belief in a god who appears physically vs. one that doesn't and which involves the stronger faith.
Of course, Cap's line from the movie as he jumps out of the quinjet is absolutely priceless.
** spoiler omitted **
I thought that one line just summed up Steve Rogers.
Also the implication that Tony Stark continually had Cap held up to him as a role model in his childhood explains a lot off the tension between them
Tony (incredulous tone): "THIS is the guy my old man wouldn't shut up about?"
It got better. :)
Okay. Thoughts on the movie. Warning. This is very, very long.
What Whedon Got Right
Yes, Whedon did some things right with this movie.
-The fighting scenes were excellent- made for 3D.
-Special effects? Nailed 'em, the explosions were pretty good for non-Baysplosions.
-Lighting? Perfect. And I'm not being petty here, the scenes where you can't see anything absolutely ruin movies, especially super hero movies.
-Sound? That needed some help. There were a few lines that were mumbled. Not sure if I can blame Whedon for that, though.
Things I Enjoyed
There were some things I enjoyed about this movie, despite coming from the depressingly fertile mind-womb of Whedon.
- First up was the 3D. This was my first movie in 3D(IMAX was unfortunately sold out..what did I miss by not seeing it in IMAX?), and it was well worth the ten bucks I paid(Morning Matinee, to be revisited later). There were a few scenes where the sides were blurry, but I didn't mind that so much- that's more the theater's fault than Whedon's. And the previews in 3D? OH HELLS YEAH. Prometheus was AMAZING. Spidey was EMOZING. And my wife got a little nauseous with the Despicable Me 2 trailer, but I'm glad it was there to get us accommodated to the 3D. Brave was also quite good, but as interested as I am in the movie, I dont' think it's going to be anything like what its advertised to be..but that's a story for another time.
- The outfits and set design were fantastic. With the exception of Hawkeye(to be revisited later), the characters looked like they stepped out of a comic book. Literally. Thor looked like Thor. Cap looked like Cap. Black Widow looked like Scarlett Johannsen(again, to be revisited later) and was...blissful. Especially in 3D. It also really looked like New York. I'm not sure if it was shot here, but I felt a very NY feeling from the film, at least the NY that was shown in Iron Man 1 and 2. I may have mentioned it when those movies were big, but there are many different New Yorks living on top of one another in real life, and those movies showed a New York that I very rarely encounter, but recognize easily. I didn't feel much like I was on a movie set, and that's saying something coming from me. The ending scenes, where they interviewed NYers was also especially authentic and touching. The music was also quite good. Although it can be a nitpick, I need a movie to have a good soundtrack, and the Avengers delivered. I might get it, but for the keen ears of my gaming group(who notice EVERYTHING).
- My favorite? The scene with the eye. That was just GREAT movie making. Here, my hat is off to Whedon, my arch foe, one leg of the tripod of evil. The screams alone were gold, but the way the leg shook and the guy struggled? Oh man. And the scene following with the old man who refused to bow to Loki, saying there were always men like him? Yeah. That’s hella good. Loki was a proper villain there, and you don’t need superpowers to stand up to that kind of monologuing ass. You just need to refuse to kneel.
What Whedon Got Wrong
As much as I hate Whedon, I know he's only human and bound to just plain mess up on things. Here are a few, YMMV.
Things I can forgive
- I originally was going to put this below, as mentioned in the other thread, bulletproof glass isn't exactly science fiction. However, in the various scenes where it was an issue(and there were several), I realize that the movie would have been over if not for the fact that the glass was breakable. And we have better bullets and guns now, so bulletproof glass is relative.
- Scarlett Johanssen as Black Widow. ScarJo is a BEAUTIFUL woman, and I enjoyed every moment she was on screen. However, she is most definitely NOT the Black Widow. It really did feel like she was playing a role. Not really her fault, or even Whedon's, to be fair(unless....see below), but she's just not the Black Widow to me. Her "boishe moi!" was horrible, then again, I live in Brooklyn and know enough Russians and Poles and others to know what it's supposed to sound like. It really sounded like she was reading off of a piece of paper. All that said, she knows how to fight, and I can forgive her on her fighting ability alone(then again...see below).
- What's his face as Hawkeye. Yes, I said what's his face, because I can't remember the guys name right now. He was in the movie, and he played a pivotal role, but I really feel like Whedon dropped the ball with the character(see below). He didn't dress up like either Hawkeye from regular continuity(QUITE forgivable- what was the original creator thinking?!?!) and he looked more like a nameless, faceless extra with only his bow and arrow to help him stand out than a super hero. I really think they should have gone the Ultimates route and given him sunglasses or SOMETHING to help him stand out other than the bow. The sunglasses could have been linked up to a targeting HUD system of some type, setting him up for the scene where he is invariable separated from the high tech sunglasses and then reveals that he really doesn't need them, it's mostly for fashion and then opens the can of whupass. Or whuparrow. Or whupcommando knife(I think that was the knife the French Foriegn Legion uses- a nasty piece of metal), whatever the case may be.
- Mark Ruffalo as The Hulk. Unfortunately, Edward Norton didn’t come back as Bruce Banner. I heard from a developmentally delayed man I ran into on the train(which tickled my wife, who doesn’t often see me in “work mode” who saw my Transformers shirt and began a long conversation, revealing an ASTONISHING level of knowledge regarding movies and moviemaking and gossip about actors, Edward Norton is more than a little bit of a diva, and caused a lot of problems with American History X and his version of the Hulk. Mark Ruffalo isn’t a nerd, however. He’s quite clearly in DAMN good shape(better than me anyway),and worked a little too hard to play the shy nerdy guy. Again, this isn’t Whedon’s fault, really, so I have to forgive him that.
- The occasional witticism. It’s Whedon. His snap-crackle-pop dialogue is well known and well documented. It isn’t good unless you like that sort of dialogue, which I don’t, but I was able to get past most of it.
- The fight scene with the Chitauri, which I liked, seemed to jump around a bit. Especially the parts with ScarJo-as-Black-Widow. One scene she’s using their weapons against them. The next she is empty handed or using her Widow’s Bite/Sting. The next she’s putting energy blasts through heads with a rifle she acquired. I think a lot of her fight sequences ended up on the cutting room floor, for some reason. I’d like to see more, because her fights seemed disjointed. And I wanted to see more of her.
Where Whedon F$$~ed Up
Oh yeah, there were some major screw ups. Some of these are attributed to my knowledge of comics, which, if I get some things wrong(my good friend pointed out an EMBARRASING error with respect to Hogun the Grim in the Thor movie, he’s worked in a comic book store for YEARS, and I foolishly pitted my mind against his…foolishly. Augh. Stupid Mark and his stupid big brain remembering stuff!!!!!) PLEASE correct me. But as I will point out later, this movie IS NOT “Superhero Action Movie”, it’s “The Avengers” and should be viewed as such. Maybe Whedon should have made “Superhero Action Movie“ instead. It certainly felt like that should have been the title at times.
Things I can’t forgive
This may take a while and seems petty to start, but work with me here.
- Scarlett Johannson was beautiful, but she wasn’t Black Widow. She was Buffy 4.0. My wife pointed this one out to me. While Whedon loves his female leads and attempts to do a good job with them(he really, really tries), he falls into the same stereotypes. Not a Mary Sue by any means(quick jab for the earlier conversation we had re: Mary Sues as a term), but close- Black Widow is all ass kicking and jaw breaking and using her feminine wiles properly until she falls to her weakness- Hawkeye, and her concern for him. Sound familiar? Same thing happened in Buffy. First it was Angel, then he went on to get his own TV series(Not talking about Bones here, although I would have preferred he leap directly to that than the questionable Angel- yes, folks, this is the HATERADE™ part of the review, in case you didn’t already know), and then it was Spike, and now it’s…who? I don’t read the comic, but I’m willing to bet that Buffy’s Achilles heel is, once again, a man. It’s like Wonder Woman being superhumanly powerful unless she is bound by a man’s hand(which really calls into question the superhumanly powerful bit, but that’s a bit of old school sexism for you). It really irked me, and made ScarJo seem less like Black Widow and more like an actress playing a role. Not saying that Black Widow would have- or SHOULD have, she’s a superhero for crying out loud- left Hawkeye twisting in the wind as it were, but it gave her character and her abilities a serious “Off” switch when I think it was intended to be a motivation. Also, Black Widow, with the exception of the occasional scene with Hawkeye, seemed to be the only one really feeling any pain or, rather, physical exhaustion in the movie. I think this is because Whedon liked showing her off sweaty and breathing heavy, but even I admit that this could be going a bit TOO far for all save the most sodium-free feminist. Still, go back and look- even if the other male characters look a bit winded, she looks EXHAUSTED. And she seemed to seriously struggle with the Chitauri, grappling them to put them in range of her Widow’s Sting/Bite. She also seemed to make more genuine and repeated pleas for help more often than anyone else in the film. I think that last one is just me, though.
- Hawkeye seemed surprised that he ran out of arrows. This, ladies and gentlemen, should NEVER happen. Hawkeye ALWAYS knows how many arrows he has, and which ones they are. He also used far less trick arrows in this movie than he should have. Not at ALL saying he should have had the (*sigh*) boxing glove arrows(although that may be more Green Arrow than Hawkeye…), but he seemed to focus more on explosions, serious internal damage, a grappling line( I *think* he did that once), or a funky almost USB thing. I wanted to see more gas/smoke arrows, a bola arrow(or just a bola. Don’t laugh- those things are VERY debilitating/useful), sticky arrows(that release a viscous fluid that you can’t escape from easily- think of what that would have done when Loki grabbed it?!), a sonic scream arrow(that could have leveled the entire Shield bridge, and would have made him seem more deadly/inventive) and just plain interesting arrows that I can’t think of here.
While we’re on the subject of Hawkeye, I have to say that I’m disappointed he didn’t show up in this film either. It was what’s his face playing a role. Hawkeye should have been more acerbic towards Cap(ESPECIALLY Cap, asking him why he should follow his orders, etc), towards Hulk, towards just about EVERYONE save perhaps Stark. In many ways it seems like they took away Hawkeye’s personality(or elements thereof) and shuttled them into Stark. My wife complained that Tony Stark in this movie seemed less…polished. More of a jerk. She could have hung out with Tony Stark in the earlier movies, or at least seen herself WANTING to hang out with this millionaire playboy. This version, she wasn’t impressed with, not really, although he was still a good Iron Man.
- Some people say Cap didn’t get much screen time in this movie. I say he did get screen time, but he seemed more Badass Normal (using a tropism..*sigh*) than the poor Agent Colson(who I did give a whispered “YES, I’m out of the movie!!!” when he died to my wife, who said she would kill me if I embarrassed us at the theatre. Again.) Cap is a SUPER hero. All of the stunts he did in this movie seemed quite achievable, even by my out of shape self, with the exception of catching the cord to keep himself from flying off the helicarrier. Oh, and beating up the Chitauri. Oh, and jumping up and protecting himself with his shield when that bomb went off. .. You know what? I take parts of this one back. I think the Chitauri would have flossed with me, especially if Whedon was giving the orders. But Cap didn’t seem like Cap to me in many physical scenes. I wanted to see him fight and not get winded, the leaps he did on the helicarrier should have seemed BEYOND BELIEF, etc. The fight with those Chitauri guys helped cement his superherodom, but it came too late in the movie for me.
- Thor. He’s from Asgard, right? Powerful demigod? Then why did he spend half the movie talking like Thor and the other half like a guy from Cali? I don’t know if I can blame Whedon for this, but the Asgardianspeak and English got pretty tangled up, to the point that I knew it was Chris Helsworth(forgive me if I got the name wrong!!!) playing Thor, which I didn’t get in the Thor movie. His Asgardianness was less “turn on, turn off” and more like the flickering of a flourescent light bulb when it’s about to go.
-Speaking of Thor and Agent Colson, another big problem with the movie was Whedon’s Blood Sacrifice of Agent Colson. I believe we all know Whedon needs to kill beloved movie characters in order to keep his career going, and this time, Colson was on the altar. However, he didn’t need to die. Thor was trapped behind…glass that his uru-metal hammer, Mjolnir, cracked. Thor cracked it himself. He swung once, and then Colson was on the scene, with an AWESOMELY PROFESSIONAL “Step away, please. […] Even I don’t know what [this big frakkin’ gun-thing] does.” He could have kept swinging. I’m sure the glass would have broken. But it was Colson’s death scene, and WHEDON’S GOD DEMANDS A SACRIFICE!! KALI-MA! KALI-MA! KALI-MA!!!!
-However, the biggest problem I had with the movie, the big Enchilada, the FHDM OF PROBLEMS I had…was with none other than Loki.
Loki of Asgard.
God of Mischief.
Prince of Lies.
And monologuing CHUMP.
He wasn’t supposed to be in the movie. As far as I’m concerned, Loki wasn’t in this movie at all. What we saw was another guy playing his part. My money’s on Kang the Conqueror- everything in this movie, the Chitauri, the Cosmic Cu- uh, I mean TESSERACT, even the big reveal at the end with you-know-who- all of these things SCREAM Kang the Conqueror. Not Loki. Why was he here?
My biggest problem with Loki was in the first five minutes of the movie, where he shows up, laughs, and proceeds to mind-whammy a few guys, using his new toy. That’s all well and good, except Loki is a powerful magician/demigod/no-they’re-powerful-aliens-that-we-THINK-are-gods-and-they -see-no-need-to-correct-us - he doesn’t NEED toys to mind-whammy people. Just a hullaballoo and it’s “I’m with you, Ser!” No need for toys. But I guess I can forgive that. What I can’t forgive is why he just mind-whammyed a COUPLE of guys. Loki should have attempted to mind-whammy everyone in sight, so he wouldn’t have to go build an entire separate armed force consisting of Shield’s enemies(where was AIM? Where was Hydra? Where was just about any other stock Marvel villainous army?!). More importantly, he should have attempted to mind-whammy Samuel L. Madre Violate Jackson, who should have resisted and there should have been a bit of a scene explaining why. Loki doesn’t take chances. He’s had his butt handed to him at least once by now, he should have been a bit more paranoid, or at the very least cautious. Instead, as my wife pointed out, he started monologuing to the ONE ACTOR who shouldn’t have bought into it by bantering with him BECAUSE HE DID AN ENTIRE SCENE IN THE INCREDIBLES(one of my favorite movies, btw) ABOUT HOW STUPID THAT WAS.
Next was the scene where ScarJo-playing-Black-Widow plays mind games with Loki. Once again, this just proves to me that this is NOT Loki. Well….maybe I should take that back. The scene was just waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much of a Whedonism in that his beloved female lead gets exactly what she needs because she’s badass awesome. Normally I wouldn’t have a problem with this, except she’s badass awesome-ing someone who’s entire skill set trumps hers. Not because he has a penis, mind, but because he’s THE GOD(or ALIEN, or what have you) OF LIES AND SUBTERFUGE. It would be like me, when I had just gotten my first degree black belt in Pa Kua and was in the BEST SHAPE OF MY LIFE beating the ever living snot out of (insert the name of your preferred unarmed killing machine here!). Sure I might get a lucky blow. And maybe Loki DID blurt out something by mistake(god he may be, perfect he is not), but I’m not going to win that fight, and it’s just too outside of the realm of belief for me that ScarJo-playing-Black-Widow is going to out-bluff a being who was bluffing before her grandmother was a twinkle in her great grandfather’s eye. This isn’t to say that Black Widow couldn’t have gotten the info out of him. She should have just gone about it in a way that didn’t’ play to Loki’s strengths. She could have intimidated him or better yet, compared him to his brother in such a way that he blurted out his plan(ScarJo-as-Black-Widow: You suck. Thor Rules. You know it’s true. Loki: Could THOR have been half as smart as I?? When that MONSTER loses control, I’ll—ScarJo-as-Black-Widow: So, you want Hulk to lose his s~$!? Thanks for the info, dood! Loki: What? I mean, NO! Forget I said that last part! I am NOT using the Hulk in any way shape or form!!!) And yes, I am aware of the possibility that Loki was doing this just to create later discord, which is actually a strong possibility, but I don’t buy it, not with Whedon as the writer AND director.
Next, what the frak is Loki doing getting into fisticuffs with his brother? As much as I like wizards using weapons in Pathfinder when things go wrong(note: not necessarily run out of spells), it’s not their first move. Loki should have energy blasted Thor instead of attempting to go toe to toe with him. Either that, or Thor should have disarmed him of his staff or something. Unless he did that, I can’t remember. I DO remember being thoroughly unimpressed with the bit where Loki and Thor attempted to duke it out- that’s just not Loki’s strength. What really got me about this was that at the end of the movie, Loki is being lead away with a plate over his mouth, which should have showcased his strength of guile and honeyed words. Why even attempt to punch Thor at all? Thor is his big bully of a brother who gave him wedgies all the time as a kid because his dad told him that wedgies build the sort of character his brother is lacking. He should know better than to raise his hand to him at all.
Finally, from the wife, was that Loki was..just..not all that impressive in the movie. He was very meh(which is also her rating of the movie). He was a supervillain, whereas before, in the Thor movie, he was TERRIFYING. A master of illusion. A scorned son who didn’t know he was adopted. A demigod/alien/etc..etc.. with something to prove. Here? He’s just another would-be-ruler/dictator/etc..etc.. who you KNOW is going to get his ass kicked in two and a half hours. Loki was PREDICTABLE- something he should NEVER be.
CLOSING THOUGHTS-
Man, I use caps a lot, don’t I?
Long story short, was the movie GOOD? No. As a comic book fan(although as I think I mentioned above, I am late to the Avengers fandom) and a Whedon hater, there were just too many Whedonisms and flaws for it to be actually good.
Was it entertaining? Sure. It beats the hell out of a root canal, although I wouldn’t postpone a game I am running or in in order to go out and grab a ticket. I think I might watch the movie again if it shows up on cable…at least I wouldn’t be as fast to turn the channel as I would with other Whedonfare, like Buffy or Firefly.
Would I buy it on DVD? Probably not, and that’s saying something, considering the size of my DVD collection. I wouldn’t turn my nose up at a free copy, however, as I would with those last two series.
But was it fun? Yes. I have to say that the movie was fun. I am looking forward to Captain America 2, Iron Man 3, the Hulk 2.5 and Avengers 2. I would have watched them anyway, though, probably, even with Whedon at the helm. That said, I am VERY glad I paid matinee prices for it. I certainly would have been disappointed and maybe even pissed with the film if I dropped midnight advanced screening money on it. To sum up, I watched the Avengers movie, and was entertained for a while, had a good amount of fun, but overall, my opinion of the film is equivalent to the very, very, VERY end of the movie, after the credits.
FDM..I respect your right to your opinion..I think your opinion comes from a never give JW an even break point of view but I respect it.
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** spoiler omitted **Now, I disagree that she guessed it right. I notice everyone assumes that, but...
** spoiler omitted **
Loki's not a sucker, he's just overconfident. And in the middle of break down.** spoiler omitted **
Everyone assumes she guessed it right because there is no reason not to do so. If there had been a Palpatine-esque smirk right before the scene cut, I could buy that Loki had been playing her. But we're left with him confused and shocked, and her confidant.
No, she guessed part of Loki's plan. She just underestimated how dangerous the Hulk was (hence her fear and apologetic line later to Hawkeye).
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Find Avengers unrealistic Fantasy. Iron Man I can live with because Its powered Armour that might be invented tomorrow by some genius...and is more of a Transhumanist tale. Thor is a God and Gods belittle the Human experience.
His presence undermines the respectability of the Avengers as a viable human story. And between that and the Fact they are up against Loki...I think Actual Humans fighting a God is like an ant biting my hand. If I didn't care about them I would just rip their heads off and flick them aside. That's why Stark, Black Widow and Captain America are ants - sure Iron Man is a super ant but an ant none the less. That leaves Thor and Hulk as the only realistic Opponents for a Loki fight.And Black Widow? I mean really? Little miss SHIELD Agent doesn't strike me as anything more than eye-candy for the 'Sexy Ninja'-loving geeks. Loki would impregnate her with a look and dump her in his harem of ex-girl friends.
1) Gods are a part of the human psyche. The idea of gods and humans interacting is a viable exploration of what it means to be human - the Greeks knew this very well. And I would argue that all superhero comics are about "gods" in a different guise.
2) Loki is not Asgardian - he's a frost giant raised in Asgard who learned magic. His "power" level is nowhere near the other Marvel gods (though still greater than most of the heroes). Thor (and this has been stated directly) lowers his power level on Earth for fear of hurting others.
3) Loki could just kill everyone, sure. But that would make a boring movie, and wouldn't be in character for him. He's manipulative and a drama-queen. Notice they weren't directly fighting Loki most of the movie, they were fighting his schemes.
Freehold
For Tony's level of Jerkiness, for some of the worst parts he was being influenced by Loki's staff.
For Thor whacking on the glass, it was designed to fall if the cage got rattled around as a fail safe for the hulk (Furry pointed out this feature to loki) . You can see it drop and shake a bit as thor hits it.
Captain america IS supposed to be a badassnormal. His level of superpoweredness is the peak of human perfection but isn't supposed to go beyond that (much...)
1) Gods are a part of the human psyche. The idea of gods and humans interacting is a viable exploration of what it means to be human - the Greeks knew this very well. And I would argue that all superhero comics are about "gods" in a different guise.
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The best way to think of Captain America is to take every Olympic event record holder and wrap them into one frame. That's what Steve Rogers is. As fast as Jesse Owens, and strong as the best powerlifter, and as agile as a gymnastics champion. I always thought the real trick behind the serum was stuffing all that into the same guy, as normally intensive traing in one area comes at the expense of capability in others.
That is a pretty good summary of 616 Cap. Ultimate Cap, however, goes beyond the "peak human" and well into the superhuman. Hell, he's actually staggered the Hulk.
And the movie-verse is kind of a blend of 616, Ultimate, and new stuff. I think movie-Cap is somewhere between 616 Cap and Ultimate Cap...leaning a bit closer to 616.
Freehold
For Tony's level of Jerkiness, for some of the worst parts he was being influenced by Loki's staff.
For Thor whacking on the glass, it was designed to fall if the cage got rattled around as a fail safe for the hulk (Furry pointed out this feature to loki) . You can see it drop and shake a bit as thor hits it.
Captain america IS supposed to be a badassnormal. His level of superpoweredness is the peak of human perfection but isn't supposed to go beyond that (much...)
1. Meh. I suppose...
2. That might have been a mumbled line, I know I missed that.
3. I would prefer he be a superhero. As a badass normal, Colson stole the show from cap, and he wasn't even in the movie so much.
3. I would prefer he be a superhero. As a badass normal, Colson stole the show from cap, and he wasn't even in the movie so much.The problem with turning Cap from a badass normal into a full blown superhero is that he really ceases to be Cap if you do that. Being a badass normal is the whole POINT to Captain America. Coulson stealing the role has more to do with the skill of the actor than anything else, IMO. Phil was great, and the Marvel movies are probably a little bit less without him.
I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree here. Cap is a superhero to me, not a badass normal. I'm not saying he should have floored the Hulk and Loki with one punch each, I'm just saying he should have done things that were more superheroic, less stock action movie.
Just saw it. It was all right, I suppose.
Lots of problems for me, though:
- WAY too much Black Widow. She's a minor nobody in the Marvel universe, as far as I can tell, and there was just way too freakin' much of her. Stop already. (She dragged down Iron Man 2, as well.)
- WAY too much time fighting each other as opposed to getting on with the bloody story. Boring.
- WAY too much time... fixing a ship. Boring. (Yeah, I get that's the time the team supposedly "comes together as a team"... still boring.)
- Speaking fixing a ship - one arrow damages a massive engine that much? Go back to engineering school, bozos.
- Hawkeye was... wait for it... also boring. Shuffle him off screen so we can watch the real heroes, thanks.
- Agent Colson's fate. Suck.
Best parts? The dialogue. Holy cow, the dialogue was good. Captain America stole the show, AFAIC. "I get that reference!"
Just saw it. It was all right, I suppose.
Lots of problems for me, though:
- WAY too much Black Widow. She's a minor nobody in the Marvel universe, as far as I can tell, and there was just way too freakin' much of her. Stop already. (She dragged down Iron Man 2, as well.)- WAY too much time fighting each other as opposed to getting on with the bloody story. Boring.
- WAY too much time... fixing a ship. Boring. (Yeah, I get that's the time the team supposedly "comes together as a team"... still boring.)
- Speaking fixing a ship - one arrow damages a massive engine that much? Go back to engineering school, bozos.
- Hawkeye was... wait for it... also boring. Shuffle him off screen so we can watch the real heroes, thanks.
- Agent Colson's fate. Suck.
Best parts? The dialogue. Holy cow, the dialogue was good. Captain America stole the show, AFAIC. "I get that reference!"
Agree with the general sentiment, though not the specifics. I love me some Hawkeye, for example.
Best parts? The dialogue. Holy cow, the dialogue was good. Captain America stole the show, AFAIC. "I get that reference!"Sad thing is that some of the 20 and under set probably didn't get that reference.
Not sad. Just a temporal gag. I would like to see less of them, though, before we all turn into Grandpa Simpson, going on and on for hours about the importance of a very brief fad in the summer of before-everyone-for-miles-around-was-born.
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I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree here. Cap is a superhero to me, not a badass normal. I'm not saying he should have floored the Hulk and Loki with one punch each, I'm just saying he should have done things that were more superheroic, less stock action movie.
The problem with turning Cap from a badass normal into a full blown superhero is that he really ceases to be Cap if you do that. Being a badass normal is the whole POINT to Captain America. Coulson stealing the role has more to do with the skill of the actor than anything else, IMO. Phil was great, and the Marvel movies are probably a little bit less without him.
I have to agree with Grey Lensman on this one. Making Cap a true super undermines a lot of his distinctiveness as a character. Marvel has taken that route on occasion because he did develop into having super strength for a while (though I don't remember the full details). Thankfully, it was temporary.
One of Cap's Crowning Moments of Awesome was when he was fighting Michael Korvac while all of the supers were temporarily down (those that weren't dead yet)."You dropped your guard too soon, Mike! There's one of us left--one man! Or maybe you don't even count me--because I'm just a man? Hear that, Mike? This is no god hitting you... no super man! Just a man!"
It doesn't get much better than that.
FDM..I respect your right to your opinion..I think your opinion comes from a never give JW an even break point of view but I respect it.
I think i gave Whedon props where they were due. There were a lot of things he got right with the film. That said, I do prefer the cool, refreshing taste of Haterade(tm) to that of Whedon flavored Kool-Aid.
I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree here. Cap is a superhero to me, not a badass normal. I'm not saying he should have floored the Hulk and Loki with one punch each, I'm just saying he should have done things that were more superheroic, less stock action movie.
The problem with turning Cap from a badass normal into a full blown superhero is that he really ceases to be Cap if you do that. Being a badass normal is the whole POINT to Captain America. Coulson stealing the role has more to do with the skill of the actor than anything else, IMO. Phil was great, and the Marvel movies are probably a little bit less without him.I have to agree with Grey Lensman on this one. Making Cap a true super undermines a lot of his distinctiveness as a character. Marvel has taken that route on occasion because he did develop into having super strength for a while (though I don't remember the full details). Thankfully, it was temporary.
One of Cap's Crowning Moments of Awesome was when he was fighting Michael Korvac while all of the supers were temporarily down (those that weren't dead yet)."You dropped your guard too soon, Mike! There's one of us left--one man! Or maybe you don't even count me--because I'm just a man? Hear that, Mike? This is no god hitting you... no super man! Just a man!"
It doesn't get much better than that.
That's interesting. I don't recall seeing a scene like that in THIS MOVIE, which is what the thread is about.
Sorry for being snippy, but one of my good friends is a Cap fanatic who constantly points things like this out, and gets upset when I keep reminding him that they are great and all- but didn't show up in this movie. Cap wasn't a super hero in this movie. He was an action hero. You could have subbed Indiana Jones with a bullwhip and gotten the same scene, just that he would have used a bullwhip instead of a shield. I had the same problem with Hawkeye, for example.
Re: Superhuman strength, well it doesn't take superhuman strength to be a superhero. It was a good part of his back story when he got it, however.
I went and saw the movies with friends, and was more pleased than I figured I would be. Each character seemed to have their moment to shine and the dialogue between them was great. I liked what I saw of Cap personally, and felt his moments came when dealing with the police and civilians. It really made the city feel alive and realistic rather than a place where super heroes roamed free and fought villains on this scale on a daily basis. Too many superhero stories leave out the civilians unless they are needed as prop pieces. This one made them feel just as real as the heroes. It also showed Cap doing what he does best, at least as far as his role in the Avengers is concerned, and that is lead. I liked Fury for the same reason; both of them were essentially leaders, which is often a hard role to depict in a movie, and yet this movie did a pretty good job of giving both of them opportunities to highlight that role. The other character I really liked was Banner/Hulk; That kind of Jekyll/Hyde relationship is really hard to pull off effectively, but I felt the movie did a really good job of making both sides interesting.
I went and saw the movies with friends, and was more pleased than I figured I would be. Each character seemed to have their moment to shine and the dialogue between them was great. I liked what I saw of Cap personally, and felt his moments came when dealing with the police and civilians. It really made the city feel alive and realistic rather than a place where super heroes roamed free and fought villains on this scale on a daily basis. Too many superhero stories leave out the civilians unless they are needed as prop pieces. This one made them feel just as real as the heroes. It also showed Cap doing what he does best, at least as far as his role in the Avengers is concerned, and that is lead. I liked Fury for the same reason; both of them were essentially leaders, which is often a hard role to depict in a movie, and yet this movie did a pretty good job of giving both of them opportunities to highlight that role. The other character I really liked was Banner/Hulk; That kind of Jekyll/Hyde relationship is really hard to pull off effectively, but I felt the movie did a really good job of making both sides interesting.
I liked Cap scene too. As a NYer, I would have REALLY liked it if he had that scene with a whiteshirt(heh....jerks), but I would remove more of my objections if he had a scene where he was leading a bunch of cops or even national guardsmen against the Chitauri.
FHDM - have you seen this version of events? If so, did you like that Cap more or less than the Chris Evans & Joss Whedon's version in the live action film?
FHDM - have you seen this version of events? If so, did you like that Cap more or less than the Chris Evans & Joss Whedon's version in the live action film?
interestingly, I was watching this a few days ago on NetFlix, when my NetFlix crapped out. Will watch it again and get back to you.
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Okay. Thoughts on the movie. Warning. This is very, very long.
** spoiler omitted **...
Freehold, I have to disagree with you about Black Widow. I thought she was by far the best actor in the movie. But I think Loki plays to her ego and gets exactly what he wanted out of her.
As for Loki vs Thor, Loki opens the fight with a bolt. Thor deflects/absorbs it with his hammer. Then they engage in melee.
Personally, I think Loki is playing a long game that goes beyond this movie. Until we see the sequels, we wont really be able to say if he succeeded in his goal or failed. I have seen plenty of arguments showing that he got exactly what he wanted at the end of the movie.
Okay. Thoughts on the movie. Warning. This is very, very long.
** spoiler omitted **...
Freehold, I have to disagree with you about Black Widow. I thought she was by far the best actor in the movie. But I think Loki plays to her ego and gets exactly what he wanted out of her.
As for Loki vs Thor, Loki opens the fight with a bolt. Thor deflects/absorbs it with his hammer. Then they engage in melee.
Personally, I think Loki is playing a long game that goes beyond this movie. Until we see the sequels, we wont really be able to say if he succeeded in his goal or failed. I have seen plenty of arguments showing that he got exactly what he wanted at the end of the movie.
I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
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I think both of them got more or less what they wanted from that scene, honestly. I don't feel that either of them were more fooled than the other. Black Widow was able to get information out of Loki as only a trained spy could, and Loki was able to initiate the events that led to his release, but I don't think either fully expected to, nor was really trying to, completely fool the other. She's an accomplished spy, and he's the trickster god; they both knew how to play subtle mind games too well to have that expectation. It was really a great scene to show off her place in the group. Everyone else is flashy and obvious; Black Widow's training is perfect for allowing her to operate in their shadows, coming across as being the weak link, when in fact, she's simply more subtle, and more capable of actually getting the information the others need to act.
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I think both of them got more or less what they wanted from that scene, honestly. I don't feel that either of them were more fooled than the other. Black Widow was able to get information out of Loki as only a trained spy could, and Loki was able to initiate the events that led to his release, but I don't think either fully expected to, nor was really trying to, completely fool the other. She's an accomplished spy, and he's the trickster god; they both knew how to play subtle mind games too well to have that expectation. It was really a great scene to show off her place in the group. Everyone else is flashy and obvious; Black Widow's training is perfect for allowing her to operate in their shadows, coming across as being the weak link, when in fact, she's simply more subtle, and more capable of actually getting the information the others need to act.
By far the best comment made on this subject in this thread.
It is very difficult to pull together an ensemble cast, and come away feeling that each character was well represented. Love or Hate Whedon, he did a masterful job giving all the main characters moments to shine.
Later,
Mazra
Interesting, but I'd say it goes way too far.
My favorite blog post theory: http://exurbe.com/?p=1368
"Perhaps we are to believe he (Loki) was so frustrated that no one noticed the brilliant success of his earlier scheme that this time he has dialed down the subtlety in hopes that at least some of the supposed-genius members of the adversary squad might piece together the logic chain: 'Loki is an unmatched genius. This plan is dumb. Therefore this is not Loki’s plan.'
SURFACE PLAN. GOAL: CONQUER EARTH (USING ALIEN GOONS) & BECOME KING (WA HA HA).
1. Make a badly-thought-through treaty with some unknown aliens where they get the universe but I get Earth.
2. Come to Earth and steal the M’Kran Crystal* from S.H.I.E.L.D.**
3. Set human minions (including co-opted S.H.I.E.L.D. agents) working on using the Ruby of Cyttorak* to make a portal.
4. Get captured by S.H.I.E.L.D.
5. Spend time chilling in boring white cell while making the Avengers cat fight.
6. Smash S.H.I.E.L.D.’s stuff, drop Thor down a hole, drop Hulk down a hole, make no attempt to kill the Avengers members that can actually BE killed, leave. Tony Stark notices that it’s kind-of odd I haven’t killed the Avengers yet.
7. Go to Stark’s house, which is filled with unmatched quantities of awesome technology and data, and ignore said resources completely while waiting around as the Infinity Gems* summon an army of alien goons.
8. Smash New York City a bit. NOTE: this is somehow supposed to result in me being king.
9. Spend more time chilling in Tony Stark’s house. Dum de dum. Dum de dum de dum. Hey, heroes, is anybody going to notice that… Oh, finally, footsteps. “So, mortals, at last you…” What the? The Hulk! I can’t deliver my awesome speech to you! Well, I could try… um… What vocabulary do you know? “Unworthy beast! I am a god, and!..” SMASH! “Ow…”
10. More time waiting in Tony Stark’s House. Less fun now due to Hulk. While the heroes were distracted by goons, some random humans seem to have switched off the Moonstone* and its...
Lots of flaws in that film, yeah.
I think they only said if you "cracked the glass" that the cell would drop. Then again, we know that's not true, because while the cell shifted when Thor cracked the glass, it didn't drop until Loki hit the button. So... who knows?
Or it was an idle threat. But yeah, he does say hit the glass.
Maybe they lied to their enemy?
Folks have been known to do that.
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So I am resurrecting the thread, I know, but I just HAD to comment on the Loki/Black Widow scene. Some people seem to be upset that Black Widow "Outsmarted" the god of lies. To that I have several things to say:
1)Taking a step back, people should realise that Loki is considerd a very devious guy... by Asgardians. Have you SEEN Thor? Outsmarting him is not VERY difficult, and the other gods are not much better than him. So Loki is a very good trickster, and he has superpowers to match that skill... but it's not as if he ever had much of a serious competition. Therefore, an opponent that's actualy capable of deciet might easily catch himm off guard.
2) In the movie, the scene where Black Widow is introduced as a scene where she is being interrogated by some russian criminals. In that scene, she is trciking her prey into thinking they are in a position of power, allowing them to make mistakes simply because they are way too comfortable. Simply put, they feel as if they defeated her already so they don't focus on being rational as well as they should.
In her scene with Loki, she is pulling off EXACTLY the same trick. She knows very well that Loki is not intimidated by her or any other human aboard ship, so she approaches him and plays up the vulnerable part, allowing Loki to get his smug satisfaction off of being in control even while physicaly imprisoned.
Given that her method of interrogation was actualy foreshadowed in the movie, I feel like there's some payoff there, which by itself is a reason to have her succed to some measure by tricking Loki. That being said,...
3) Like some other people pointed out, it's not even all that clear that Loki was REALLY outwitted. Just about the ONLY thing I liked about the "Thor" movie a couple years ago was that Loki was a great villain, and his plot was complex and multi-leveled, and everytime you thought you had the entire movie figured out already, Loki would go and do something unpredictable. So assuming that just because Loki did a, "Oh snap, you defeated me once again, O mighty hero" face, that means he really did lose his wits, is probably silly. Given that Loki's entire intent was to turn the Avengers on each other, and that given away the plan dosen't actualy help the good guys stop it from happening, I'd say Loki might just have come with the upper hand from that discussion.
So there's really quite a lot to like about the mind games scene between Black Widow and Loki. I'd go as far as calling it the most sophisticated scene in the entire film.
Also to Free Hold DM's complaint about having Black Widow be the only character to get tired during fight scenes... look dude, Black Widow is a sexy character. She is built that way, her entire fighting style is built to show off her body (though I'd note that someone on tumblr made a count, and Captain America's backside gets nearly the same amount of screen time as Black Widow's, so go figure), and part of her fighting style is that she is moving a LOT. far more than any of the other superheroes. She's also only human, unlike everyone else except for Hawkeye (who understandably dosen't get very tired shooting arrows) and Captain America (Who is still in a better shape than her). So really that's just digging for bad things to say.