In our nostalgic retro campaign (entirely 3.0, except for two 3.5 splatbooks) that me and my old dnd group are playing I play a Swashbuckler/Fighter specializing in dual wielding bladed gauntlets, another player is a TWF shortsword wielding rogue fighter and one is a monk, so for a decent damage output all three of us need to get full attack actions in with our melee weapons as often as possible.
Now our GM occasionally (and who is to blame him?) faces us with flying monsters, the most recent two encounters being two wyverns and a couatl (if memory serves).
I found these encounters to be incredibly bothersome, as we could do little more than sit idly by and wait for the sorcerer to lightning-bolt and fireball these things out of the sky. Well me and the monk had rings of jumping (which in 3.0 were +30 to jump with a cost of only 2,500 GP) which gave us at least the possibility of putting in a single attack with a jump check, but that was kind of pathetic considering the two other attacks we miss out on.
I realize that there are monsters that are easier for a caster to fight, and those that are easier for a martial characer to fight, but that something as simple as a different mode of movement puts melee characters at such a disadvantage, as if they didn't have enough problems keeping up with casting characters already.
So my question is, how do you deal with flying monsters? Both as a player with a melee oriented character and as a gm who has Melee PCs?
Low levels, ranged attacks, high levels, fly spells/magic items that allow flying. Even if you are melee focused you should have a ranged weapon handy for suck cases. Flying monsters are SUPPOSED to be more difficult, but if you dont prepare for them you end up sitting out as a melee character. And remember you can ready actions and use spells/items to entangle them.
Ready an action to throw a net, or try to grapple an enemy when it swoops down to fly by attack you for instance. Or have your caster cast a spell that will bring it down to earth.
Javelins? Bows? Crossbows? Slings? Any ranged weapon? Wands of Magic Missile and UMD? Ballistas? Alchemist fire? Hit them with a Tanglefoot bag? Those make it so they can't fly anymore.
When you focus so hard on one weapon or fighting style, you're going to be left behind in situations where you can't use that fighting style. At least carry some stuff to make you a bit more well rounded :)
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Couldn't you find some way to entangle, stun, or otherwise incapacitate it? Sure, ranged attacks would be nice against them if you were to use a bow or something (one that can take advantage of a STR mod especially), but having to sap several rounds of combat on ranged attacks/spells is just playing the fight according to the monster's rules.
I'm not sure what a 3.0 sorceror is capable of, but surely it's better than casting several slots worth of spells. Perhaps a Suggestion spell to land next to all three of you damage dealers?
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My Pathfinder Society barbarian has had a longbow since I first created him. He upgraded to a composite longbow as soon as I had some cash. At level 8, he walks around with a potion of fly at all times, though I've considered upgrading his bow, too, since he's had the same one since level 1. A masterwork composite bow built for his current raging strength (after boosting his strength at level 8 and buying a belt of strength) would give an extra +1 to hit and +4 damage compared to the one he already has. And then upgrading again to +1 magic wouldn't be that expensive for a level 8.
Yah. What these guys said. Pack a ranged weapon. Then, if you can, set up the fight to where they have to resort to fly-by attacks -- then you can coordinate your melee guys. Everyone ready grapples or some other combat maneuver to keep them in range, then when one of you succeeds, the rest of you pound the crap out of it.
best I can think of, anyway.
All martial based characters should have both a melee and a ranged weapon no exceptions. All the characters you described should have decent DEX and proficiency with some sort of ranged weapon. Even if you don't specialize in ranged combat you can still contribute something. Any character with proficiency in martial weapons above 1st or 2nd level should have a bow built to his STR. This is just basic common sense.
You are not going to be dealing the same amount of damage as if you were in melee but at least you are not completely useless. It's not just flying creatures you have to worry about either. If you are not able to reach your opponents due to a barrier or even faster movement you are helpless. Consider the following examples.
Any Elf with a bow and light armor or no armor vs. a Paladin in heavy armor without a ranged weapon. Even if they start next to each other the elf simply takes a of double move and he is a out of range of the Paladin. After this he can take a full attack. If the paladin makes a double move the elf can make a single move and take one attack. The elf will probably not take a scratch and the other character will be slaughtered. Give the Paladin a bow and the situation drastically changes.
A group of 20 1st level warriors with bows on top of a castle wall vs. a party of 4 10th level non spell casters without ranged weapons. Anyone without a good climb skill can just stand around looking stupid and getting attacked. Even if you have someone with a good climb skill he is not going to be able to do much. Once he starts climbing all the archers are going to target him. He loses his DEX bonus to AC and has to make a climb check of at least 25 per hit and can't take 10 on this check. Give the party bows and again the situation changes. Assuming full BAB classes the party is getting off 8 shots in the first round and will probably bring down at least 4 warriors per round.
In your party you have 2 two weapon fighters and a monk. Get STR bows for the fighters and the monk should carry some shuriken. Don't forget the monk can flurry with shuriken and you add your STR bonus to damage.
Ranged weapons aren't really any better than the magic aided jump attacks i've done so far.
But the tanglefoot bag is something I never really thought of, I will get some of those next time. Also try to get the casters to get some fly spells as well as spells that stop things from flying next time.
The bow has several advantages over the jump and attack. It will also depend on the level of the party. One you can full attack with a bow, but if you are not getting multiple attacks that will not help. Second the bow has a much greater range so the monster can't just back up and be out of range. They also work in areas where magic does not like anti magic field. And lastly they are usually cheaper than rings and do not use a item slot.
The whole idea is to give you some options when you are not able to attack in your preferred manner.
Ranged weapons aren't really any better than the magic aided jump attacks i've done so far.You can full attack with a bow.
Yeah that's one more attack at -5, one higher damage die, no Int bonus to damage (which is my main damage bonus being a swashbuckler), no focus and no magic/masterwork bonuses unless i want to pay for that stuff. That's why I didn't even consider it so far. I'll get one just to make sure, but I don't believe it's going to help a lot.
Have the monk ready a grapple attack. Then all of you pound the flier. It was already said above, but that's how you do it. If your character has such a high Int that it gives him lots of damage, he should be smart enough to figure out solid tactics vs. fliers, so it's not like you're metagaming or something by playing intelligently.
Also, I don't believe that a Swashbuckler's Insightful Strike ability specifies that you only get your Int to damage on melee attacks. You get it with Light weapons, so it's very possible to throw weapons and get your Int bonus. A light hammer has range 20. That could be pretty useful, though you might need quick draw to get the most from it. Darts may or may not work, too.
There should be magic arrows/crossbow bolts/sling bullets that cause creatures using magical flight to fall. That one invention would change a large aspect of the game at higher levels.
If there were bolts/arrows/bullets that caused creatures to fall up in addition to ones that did no more flying, I'd be fine with that :D
Have the monk ready a grapple attack. Then all of you pound the flier. It was already said above, but that's how you do it. If your character has such a high Int that it gives him lots of damage, he should be smart enough to figure out solid tactics vs. fliers, so it's not like you're metagaming or something by playing intelligently.
Also, I don't believe that a Swashbuckler's Insightful Strike ability specifies that you only get your Int to damage on melee attacks. You get it with Light weapons, so it's very possible to throw weapons and get your Int bonus. A light hammer has range 20. That could be pretty useful, though you might need quick draw to get the most from it. Darts may or may not work, too.
Well applying common sense would be metagaming with her 7 wis and recurring wisdom damage due to devilweed consumption. But yeah i see the point. I will look up throwing weapons. Quick draw is not really working with my build since she usually wears the bladed gauntlets all the time, only putting them away when any other character would put down their weapons entirely.
@Krith Gersen
I'll remember that for when it becomes relevant, so far it's been winged flight.
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Bring lots of throwing weapons, get that strength damage in. At one point the players in my Curse of the Crimson Throne game were fighting a necromancer who was flying and no one could reach him. They decided to have the monk throw the halfling party member at him as a projectile, normally I wouldn't allow it but it was too funny of an image and a creative idea I let it happen :)
Have the monk ready a grapple attack. Then all of you pound the flier. It was already said above, but that's how you do it. If your character has such a high Int that it gives him lots of damage, he should be smart enough to figure out solid tactics vs. fliers, so it's not like you're metagaming or something by playing intelligently.
Also, I don't believe that a Swashbuckler's Insightful Strike ability specifies that you only get your Int to damage on melee attacks. You get it with Light weapons, so it's very possible to throw weapons and get your Int bonus. A light hammer has range 20. That could be pretty useful, though you might need quick draw to get the most from it. Darts may or may not work, too.
Well applying common sense would be metagaming with her 7 wis and recurring wisdom damage due to devilweed consumption. But yeah i see the point. I will look up throwing weapons. Quick draw is not really working with my build since she usually wears the bladed gauntlets all the time, only putting them away when any other character would put down their weapons entirely.
@Krith Gersen
I'll remember that for when it becomes relevant, so far it's been winged flight.
Combat tactics usually fall under Intelligence, I believe. Though I understand if that's not how people play it. The whole point of insightful strike and combat expertise and the like working off of intelligence though, in my opinion, is that intelligence represents tactical combat ability. But I understand if you play that as Wisdom, too. It's not real clear, to be honest.
Combat tactics usually fall under Intelligence, I believe. Though I understand if that's not how people play it. The whole point of insightful strike and combat expertise and the like working off of intelligence though, in my opinion, is that intelligence represents tactical combat ability. But I understand if you play that as Wisdom, too. It's not real clear, to be honest.Have the monk ready a grapple attack. Then all of you pound the flier. It was already said above, but that's how you do it. If your character has such a high Int that it gives him lots of damage, he should be smart enough to figure out solid tactics vs. fliers, so it's not like you're metagaming or something by playing intelligently.
Also, I don't believe that a Swashbuckler's Insightful Strike ability specifies that you only get your Int to damage on melee attacks. You get it with Light weapons, so it's very possible to throw weapons and get your Int bonus. A light hammer has range 20. That could be pretty useful, though you might need quick draw to get the most from it. Darts may or may not work, too.
Well applying common sense would be metagaming with her 7 wis and recurring wisdom damage due to devilweed consumption. But yeah i see the point. I will look up throwing weapons. Quick draw is not really working with my build since she usually wears the bladed gauntlets all the time, only putting them away when any other character would put down their weapons entirely.
@Krith Gersen
I'll remember that for when it becomes relevant, so far it's been winged flight.
I would say normally Intelligence is the way to go. But my character is flat out insane (low wisdom, drug use, chaotic evl alignment) and while having the ability to think tactically just doesn't bother to do so we needs to be the first in and last out. That doesn't mean the rogue who has a more moderate wisdom score and is also intelligent, or the monk, who isn't particularly smart nor dumb but obviously wise, can't talk some sense every now and then.