Have you talked to the other players and the GM?
If so, what was their reaction?
What are some examples of things he gets mad about?
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Do you, and let him do him. Let the GM sort out the rules.
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Talk with the SM. If this continues either put up with it(Not recommned) or find another group. Had somewhat of a similar problem where the character was doing things that a good character would not do. Such as cannabalism because in the book his race engaged in such behavior. Which of course was for the rest of his evil kind not as a player character.
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Let him know that the purpose of the game is for everyone to have fun, not just him. Everyone is playing by a set rules set out by the GM, and it is unfair for him to play by his own rules. In the end, ask him if his fun is more important than everyone else who is playing.
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at fourth level as a sorcerer the player has 4 feats (not including eschew materials), 15 0 level spells known, 11 1st level spells known and a 2nd level spell, had 9 ranks of spellcraft until I pointed it out for the fifth time and 28 hit points when we are playing average hit points (+ max at first).
holy crap lol that guy is playing an entirely different game.
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...Some of that stuff is almost possible with certain APG Favored Class options, but even using those he's way beyond a legal Sorc 4. I'm kind of shaking my head at anyone believing that would pass even casual inspection.
If everything is as you say it is, there are about two conversations that could be done.
One of them is with the player himself, letting him know that it's unnecessary to make illegal and overpowered characters and asking him why he does this. If he's concerned that his character will be irrelevant or crushed in combat, he shouldn't be (presuming the DM is a decent one, anyway). Every PC will get their chance to shine, and will be part of an effective team. Most Pathfinder fights I've seen end in few to no PC deaths so long as the PCs are reasonably competent, barring insane luck flukes.
It's possible that "I'm afraid" is all it is, that he's just concerned his character will suck and nobody at the table is taking the PC seriously. Perhaps not. Probably not. But if that's all it is, gentle understanding of his worries may be sufficient to fix the problem.
If it's not a relatively benign cause like that and he's just being a punk, then fixing it yourself is technically not your responsibility; it's the DM's.
That would lead to the second conversation, the one where you let the DM know this player's behavior is upsetting you and you're hoping the DM will set things right. No need for threats or melodrama, a polite explanation that this player's cheating and tantrums are lame will suffice. Ideally a heart-to-heart from DM to troublesome player fixes the problem. In the worst case, the player is ejected or you leave to find a better group.
Definitely don't let the problem fester, though. You'll just get increasingly unhappy and be wasting your time. Speaking from personal experience, grudgingly letting the problem go so you 'have a group to play with' sucks. You won't be enjoying the sessions so much as 'tolerating them for the hobby's sake', which doesn't really lead to anything positive. You'll also be unintentionally enabling his behavior going forward, and eventually he'll become someone else's problem in addition to yours when he attends convention sessions, etc.
Honest communication with the player, then escalating to the DM, is probably your best bet. If it doesn't work out, the group probably wasn't going to be all that great anyway.
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What are some examples of things he gets mad about?at fourth level as a sorcerer the player has 4 feats (not including eschew materials), 15 0 level spells known, 11 1st level spells known and a 2nd level spell, had 9 ranks of spellcraft until I pointed it out for the fifth time and 28 hit points when we are playing average hit points (+ max at first).
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I know how you can solve your problem. Tell me, do you have any basic automotive knowledge? Specifically, do you know how to locate an automobile's brake line?
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One of my players sometimes refuses to fix mistakes that work out in her advantage. I throw dice down her cleavage, poke her in the side where she's extremely ticklish, and tell her the game's not going any further until she plays fair like everyone else.
...Don't think most of that is applicable to other people's games though.
If a player whose personal weaknesses I didn't know was doing that, I'd probably tell the GM (making sure to be incredibly blatant) "Okay, I'm thinking of taking ___ as my free bonus feat, X, Y, and Z as my free bonus spells, and I'll put my 15 bonus skill ranks in bluff. If the GM objects I'd ask why the other player is allowed such things when not everyone is, which I think would probably get most GMs to actually do something.
If the GM said "no, you can't have those" and then still did nothing to get the other player to fix their sheet I'd probably start recruiting any of the other players who were also unhappy about the cheater not being dealt with and start up a new game myself.
If the GM didn't object to me adding the same level of crazy rule-breaking stuff to my character sheet, then okay. We're playing a rules-loose game. I can deal with that as long as everyone's allowed to bend the rules to the same degree. That's fair.
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Me too, and she doesn't even play. Hell of a way to interrupt her Minecraft time, though.
If it bothers you talk to your DM and ask him to arbitrate. A simple way to cut through the bull is to use a program like Herolab or pcgen. He won't be able to argue with a program... Your printout is your character
Talk with the other players: if none of them is upset by all this then just do the same.
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How old is this guy?
I want to repeat this question, because I really wonder the same thing.
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As a DM(And I know this isn't always the best thing) but I have stupid points. And whenever a character makes a particularly stupid move I roll and they take X stupid damage. Usually I only do this when extremely annoyed so my players know that I'm not joking with them.
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the old carrot and stick trick works well:
hit him with a stick, and if you get tired before he sees reason, eat a carrot and continue hitting.
no, seriously, there is not much we (I) can say, talk again with the player, talk with the GM and the other players, and possibly leave or accept the problem.
WOW, the DM really needs to get involved in this situation, if not, I would find the other players and start a new game without the cheater.
I've had a cheat at my table and she's still legendary. We chuckle about how X is something that Sandra would have done. We just kind of put up with it because her being better than she should be didn't actually make that much difference to the game; when I took over GMing and did things like count her points up pointing out that she'd 'mis-counted' she'd recalculate and over-point herself by less than she had in the first place. I think in her case it wasn't a malicious act, she was just really keen to be the high fantasy hero(ine) from the novels. Now she plays with a small group where they GM for each other with the open acceptance that the game isn't about challenge, it's about telling the story where the players always win. I wouldn't enjoy that much, I like the challenge (although I still want and expect to win every time). Your case sounds a bit different because it is making a difference. What you could try is to 'rely' on the character's excessive ability - it's a bit harder with a mage type, were he a fighter you could just insist that because he's so much better than the rest of you he should lead the way, tackle the hill giant head on etc. but you can undoubtedly come up with variations on the same theme. The GM is likely to take note if his carefully designed encounters are shattered by the uber-character. Alternatively, even an uber-sorcerer still needs a meat shield and if you frequently comment that given how good they are they should be standing in front of you (and act to ensure that happens) then something is likely to change (even if it's just that he gets squished).
I'm also curious as to how old this guy is, it does sound like the actions of a little brother who hasn't really worked out that the game isn't strictly competitive and the 'best' character isn't the one with the highest numbers.
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HOW DOES ONE DEAL WITH A CHILDISH CHEAT AT THEIR TABLE.
You don't deal with them. You can't make a childish person act non-childish. (Actually the term childish is rather insulting to well behaved children, many of whom are great players).
If someone is acting like a spoiled child at the table you can either cope with it, kick them out of the group, or find a new group. If you treat the symptoms it will only turn into a different problem.
You can't fix people (legally).
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Now she plays with a small group where they GM for each other with the open acceptance that the game isn't about challenge, it's about telling the story where the players always win. I wouldn't enjoy that much, I like the challenge (although I still want and expect to win every time).
Oh, how we have fallen from the first edition days, where we walked into a session knowing in our hearts that our characters would surely die should the grace of the DM or the dice turn away from us.
Oh, how we have fallen from the first edition days, where we walked into a session knowing in our hearts that our characters would surely die should the grace of the DM or the dice turn away from us.
hell I learned to play in 3.5 and I learned though my pcs death
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Move gaming locations and times. Don't tell the individual. Problem solved ;-)
For a less childish route I like Gluttony's suggestion about everybody else getting free feats. That should drive it home to the GM.
If the GM doesn't want to handle it then the player may just need to be driven off. I would suggest reasoning with him/ her but that doesn't sound like it's going to work. It would be interesting to see what would happen if the other party members started to "accidentally" strike to sorc in combat.
For a less childish route I like Gluttony's suggestion about everybody else getting free feats. That should drive it home to the GM.
It is kind of a cute way to preface the issue, though not necessarily the best way.
"Fine, then. I pull out my Phased plasma rifle (in the 40 watt range). What? I have it from my heirloom weapon trait."
You know, I used to think I was the worst die roller on the planet. My rolls were notoriously bad. People just new I was never going to hit anything. I may make the occasional skill roll, but that's about it. Then I started looking and remembering scores (back then it was THAC0's) and watching die rolls, and I noticed something: I've been playing D&D for 30 years now, and I've never sat at a game where the players didn't cheat. Every game I've ever been in had at least one, and typically all, fudge die rolls. They roll a 1 but say 11 or they roll 11 and say it adds up to 20 when it really adds up to 16. I've played with 12 year olds and 65 year olds (oddly enough the 65 year old rolls as badly as I do, which I assume means he's another non-fudger).
I'm not sure how this helps the OP, but it was a rant I wanted to get out there.
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Every childish cheater has be dealt with in a different way. There are some basically universal things to keep in mind if you have to play with them:
1) Not All Cheating is Cheating: Most cheating is a mistake or mis-understanding that has an unintended benefit for the (cheating) player that the player is reluctant to give up. Some players are more reluctant than others. Forgive mistakes, work towards a legal solution that has a similar beneficial outcome as the mistake provided. Once it's resolved, let it go!
2) Cheating Serves A Purpose: What was the goal of the cheat? Look for a way to achieve the goal legally, possibly even more than one way. Focus on supporting the player and GM in coming to a solution that puts the game back on track quickly and then let it go.
3) Weigh The Consequences: Is calling out the cheat, disrupting the game, going to have a greater benefit than the satisfaction of being right? If it's not, then let it go. If it is; consider (quickly) what specific outcome you want. Once that goal is met, let it go.
4) Trust Your GM: Talk to your GM about the situation and ask them what you can do to be a good friend at the table. There may be parts of the situation that either your or your GM don't know about. Build a plan with a course of action that will allow everyone to relax and enjoy the game. Once you're on course, let it go.
Chronic Cheaters:
If the cheater is chronic, what's going on? If the cheater is responding to temporary stress do your best to let it go until the outside situation is resolved. Do your best to reassure the player that their goals can be met legally, suggest a course of action, give the player an opportunity to decide for themselves what action gives them the best results. Once you're on a path where the cheating fades; don't panic over relapses work on solving the stress rather than focusing on the cheating.
If the cheater is goading you or the other players for attention... ignore it. This is *painful* and not nearly as quick as anyone would like. This is just a matter of seeing the purpose for what it is: getting a rise out of you. If you don't play that game *the cheater* will let it go.
All that said: The only behavior you can control is your own. This is a cooperative game with a goal of resolving problems, cheating is just another problem. You won't solve it on your own; rely on your party.
In the end you have to let it go. Game to have fun.
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Encourage your DM to audit all of the character sheets immediately (as in, immediately encourage your DM to audit all of the sheets immediately). If he/she finds nothing wrong then find a different game. Good luck!
I'd say discuss it with the DM if it's impacting your fun. It's up to the DM to decide how the table runs. Either he's playing by-the-rules or he's not. If he is, he needs to do as Dosgamer says, and audit character sheets. If not, not.
I require my players to submit sheets. I might let it slide for one level, but that's it. Primarily that's so if someone can't show up, someone else can run Zoogar The Neck or Blue Punjflaffel or whoever. But there's the added benefit that I can take a quick look for serious mistakes. I don't count all the skill ranks, but I do take a quick gander at to-hit and damage figures, and AC. If it's +/- 1 I won't work too hard to figure it out at mid/high-level. It's probably right and I'm forgetting some trait bonus from somewhere. But when something is 2, 3, or more out of whack, I point it out.
To be honest, I find my PCs more bonuses they've missed than not. "You forgot to update your saves when you bought your cloak of resistance +3." Or my favorite... "remember when you changed from a short sword to a rapier? Well, the threat-range is kind of bigger."
What are some examples of things he gets mad about?at fourth level as a sorcerer the player has 4 feats (not including eschew materials), 15 0 level spells known, 11 1st level spells known and a 2nd level spell, had 9 ranks of spellcraft until I pointed it out for the fifth time and 28 hit points when we are playing average hit points (+ max at first).
Actually, if he's a human, that's legit. At least as far as the feats go. Human sorcerers also get bonus spells (and a lot of them) as an alternate favored class feature, but I'm not about to go and do the math. If he has high con, his health is also plausible.
Also, is it still RANKS or total skill additives? Because 9 is more than plausible with any sort of int score. He'd need a 14 in int, which isn't that unreasonable.
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Actually, if he's a human, that's legit. At least as far as the feats go. Human sorcerers also get bonus spells (and a lot of them) as an alternate favored class feature, but I'm not about to go and do the math. If he has high con, his health is also plausible.
Also, is it still RANKS or total skill additives? Because 9 is more than plausible with any sort of int score. He'd need a 14 in int, which isn't that unreasonable.
Even as a Human, he's a Feat over and (by my calculations) *6* over each on 0th and 1st level spells. His HP are potentially legit if his Con's 14 (or 12 if he's got Toughness), though (8+5+6+5=28).
the cheater currently doesn't sound too bad.
the HP is achievable, although it could be pushed a little higher.
the feats are like one extra feat. this can be fixed by giving everyone else a free feat. depending on the feat chosen, it may not be too bad.
6 extra cantrips and 1st level spells.
the cantrips aren't really an issue and some spells such as youthful appearance shouldn't even take a slot known. the worst i see this guy getting (assuming a truly immature mindset) is a few more flashy blasts he wouldn't otherwise take. spell resistance is enough of a factor.
A human sorcerer should have 3 feats at 4th level. Sorcerers do not get a bloodline bonus feat until 7th level.
For spells a human sorcerer can have a maximum of 9-10 0th level spells, 4-5 1st level spells and 1 2nd level spell.
No, a human gets a bonus feat. Characters get one more feat at first level, one at second, and one at fourth, making it four feats at level four for a human.
Are you certain these are spells known, and not spells per day?
A human sorcerer should have 3 feats at 4th level. Sorcerers do not get a bloodline bonus feat until 7th level.
For spells a human sorcerer can have a maximum of 9-10 0th level spells, 4-5 1st level spells and 1 2nd level spell.
No, a human gets a bonus feat. Characters get one more feat at first level, one at second, and one at fourth, making it four feats at level four for a human.
Are you certain these are spells known, and not spells per day?
Feat progression is 1st..3rd...5th, i believe? 1st, 2nd, 4th is fighter bonus feat progression.
A human sorcerer should have 3 feats at 4th level. Sorcerers do not get a bloodline bonus feat until 7th level.
For spells a human sorcerer can have a maximum of 9-10 0th level spells, 4-5 1st level spells and 1 2nd level spell.
No, a human gets a bonus feat. Characters get one more feat at first level, one at second, and one at fourth, making it four feats at level four for a human.
Are you certain these are spells known, and not spells per day?
This is wrong. Feats come every odd level (1,3,5, ect).
Bonous feats can occur, but those depends on the class. A sorcerer gets his first bonous feat at 7th level.
As far to how to help the person making a valid character if there is anyone in your group that uses the program Hero lab force them to use that to make the character.
Since you've already spoken to the player about their mistakes, and they threw a hissy fit, bring it to the GM. Talk with him about how the group can deal with the person civilly.
If the GM doesn't do anything about it, and/or generally the situation is where everyone is acting childish, find another group. Advertise at your FLGS and post here in the Gamer Connection thread and find people to play with. I've very seldom seen cheaters in the groups I've played with, this is not something that has to be put up with.
And if you're in the "but if I can't find other people with whom to game, then I can't game," then I echo what Celestial Pegasus says -- there is no point to playing a game if you are not having fun. Going to a weekly/monthly/whatever-regular session and feeling angry and miserable is a waste of your time.
For the spells, is it possible the player has misunderstood the 'spells known' table as being the number of spells they learn at each level? So they picked two at 1st level, another two at 2nd level, three at 3rd level, and so on? The numbers are ballpark right for that to be the case.
We have a childish guy similar to that at our table, only he's deliberately made a very under powered bard and constantly works against the party...
When ever it looks like someones sheet is out of line the DM will actually look at everyones sheet and fix them so they are within the rules, he'll often take them home and look at them or get a digital copy. It's a good way to fix the problem without getting up his nose because the DM is looking at everyones, not just his.
If he's playing childish in game too our DM just makes it that little bit easier for us to realise what he's doing in game.
There is also the option of just killing his character of constantly until he doesn't come back. The guy in our games gets over playing and doesn't return for a fair few months because our DM doesn't let him get away with his childish crap or doesn't bend the rules for him. Our DM at the moment is making sure his character doesn't die so he has to live with having a completely useless character that can do nothing in battles or in the RP side.
Ultimately, as a ton of people have already said it's up to the DM to solve the problem, it's his job to make sure that everyone is following the rules and that everyones character is legal. Kinda comes with the position.
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Don't play with people who don't respect themselves and the people around them.
/as I've said many times, I play with adults. It's bliss.