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So, probably not as big a thing to most of the lovely folk here, being the wrong side of the pond and all, but we have a referendum coming in Ireland on a constitutional amendment to allow same sex marriage. Posting here, I'm sure you can all guess which side I'll be voting for, as are all of my friends, thankfully. However, the reason I'm posting is because I recently came up against the no side posters, and kinda feel sick to my stomach. I really hope we prove ourselves a more enlightened nation on the 22nd of May.

Silver Crusade

Vote well, LordSynos!


Gaberlunzie wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:

I found it flat out unbelievable.

Come on. It should have been Beast. Clearly.

Well, it's not an either-or. Though in my headcanon, Beast's an ace.

what's an ace?


LordSynos wrote:
I recently came up against the no side posters, and kinda feel sick to my stomach.

I agree that Mothers and Fathers matter. I don't see why having two of either would make them matter less. (6_6)

Liberty's Edge

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Gaberlunzie wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:

I found it flat out unbelievable.

Come on. It should have been Beast. Clearly.

Well, it's not an either-or. Though in my headcanon, Beast's an ace.

Given the fuss that happened when Beast said he was gay in Morrison's run, which they later retconned into him trying to hurt Trish Tilby for dumping him, I think they'd shy away from him being other than vaguely straight.


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Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

Well, they could always make him a furry.

*ducks well-deserved lambastations*


Freehold DM wrote:
Gaberlunzie wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:

I found it flat out unbelievable.

Come on. It should have been Beast. Clearly.

Well, it's not an either-or. Though in my headcanon, Beast's an ace.
what's an ace?

asexual.

Possible, I suppose. In his original blue version (the Avengers and Defenders days) he was quite the charmer though. That doesn't rule anything out since he could have been closeted, overcompensating or whatever, but making him either gay or ace still feels like a retcon.


Paul Watson wrote:
Gaberlunzie wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:

I found it flat out unbelievable.

Come on. It should have been Beast. Clearly.

Well, it's not an either-or. Though in my headcanon, Beast's an ace.
Given the fuss that happened when Beast said he was gay in Morrison's run, which they later retconned into him trying to hurt Trish Tilby for dumping him, I think they'd shy away from him being other than vaguely straight.

It's the basic problem with changing characters with well-established pasts and fans.

Before Morrison's run, the Beast was never written as gay. So it was a retcon when he said he was gay. And then retconned away.

Unlike Northstar, for example, who was originally written with that as subtext, since Byrne couldn't be explicit about it back when he was created.


Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

It might also confuse people coming into it from the movies (like me), as he's clearly got a bit of a thing for Mystique in First Class.

Of course, with the tendency for reboots and resets in comic book universes it's probably best to treat each different media version as separate entities riffing on a similar theme.


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Then again, with the way LBGTQ characters in general have been non-existent for most mainstream comics' history, I can take the odd retcon over character inflation through adding ever more new heroes.


Paul Watson wrote:

Given the fuss that happened when Beast said he was gay in Morrison's run, which they later retconned into him trying to hurt Trish Tilby for dumping him, I think they'd shy away from him being other than vaguely straight.

Didn't like that at all, so, you're not gay Beast? You're just an a#@&*!!? That's so much better(sarcasm).


Kajehase wrote:
Then again, with the way LBGTQ characters in general have been non-existent for most mainstream comics' history, I can take the odd retcon over character inflation through adding ever more new heroes.

Yeah. It's a hard call and probably depends a lot on how invested you are to the character's existing history.

It's not like they're going to retcon any of the big name heroes to be gay. Pretty much every longterm character starring in their own book has far to many highprofile romances for it to be plausible. Team members and lower profile characters can be, since their romances haven't gotten as much focus or public attention.

And it's not like they don't add new heroes anyway. It's just hard to get them up to star status.


Yuugasa wrote:
Paul Watson wrote:

Given the fuss that happened when Beast said he was gay in Morrison's run, which they later retconned into him trying to hurt Trish Tilby for dumping him, I think they'd shy away from him being other than vaguely straight.

Didn't like that at all, so, you're not gay Beast? You're just an a@@$$$%? That's so much better(sarcasm).

Or hurt and angry, which isn't quite the same as being an a$~*#*@.

But yeah, didn't really like the retcon to him being gay. Wasn't fond of the retcon away from it either.


thejeff wrote:
Yuugasa wrote:
Paul Watson wrote:

Given the fuss that happened when Beast said he was gay in Morrison's run, which they later retconned into him trying to hurt Trish Tilby for dumping him, I think they'd shy away from him being other than vaguely straight.

Didn't like that at all, so, you're not gay Beast? You're just an a@@$$$%? That's so much better(sarcasm).

Or hurt and angry, which isn't quite the same as being an a%!&+**.

But yeah, didn't really like the retcon to him being gay. Wasn't fond of the retcon away from it either.

I meant it more along the lines of the writers thinking it was better.


Yuugasa wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Yuugasa wrote:
Paul Watson wrote:

Given the fuss that happened when Beast said he was gay in Morrison's run, which they later retconned into him trying to hurt Trish Tilby for dumping him, I think they'd shy away from him being other than vaguely straight.

Didn't like that at all, so, you're not gay Beast? You're just an a@@$$$%? That's so much better(sarcasm).

Or hurt and angry, which isn't quite the same as being an a%!&+**.

But yeah, didn't really like the retcon to him being gay. Wasn't fond of the retcon away from it either.

I meant it more along the lines of the writers thinking it was better.

Yeah. It could have been the writer thinking "Being a jerk is better than being gay."

It could also have been the writer thinking "Being a jerk fits the Beast's past history and character better than being gay does".


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Ashiel wrote:
LordSynos wrote:
I recently came up against the no side posters, and kinda feel sick to my stomach.
I agree that Mothers and Fathers matter. I don't see why having two of either would make them matter less. (6_6)

I would love it if they could merge into some kind of super parent....

imagines gay parents at cookout, with their child playing in the backyard

suddenly, child screams for help

Parent 1- Sounds like trouble!

Parent 2- You're right, sweetie!

Parent 1 and 2- LET'S COMBINE!

Flash of light which eventually fades to reveal SUPER PARENT, who flies into backyard.

Child- SUPERPARENT! There's a snail over there and it's GROSS!

SUPERPARENT raises foot to squish snail...

Child- eyes wet with tears NO! Don't kill it, that's mean!

SUPERPARENT-loud, dual voice Okay, then...
leans down to flick snail into another zip code...

Child- EWWW! Don't touch it! Snails give you cooties!

SUPERPARENT- loud, dual voice I have had my cooties shot...have you been innoculated?

Child- whining, scared I don't want to get a shot...

SUPERPARENT- muttering slightly less loud, still dual voice Kid is trying my super-patience here...

concentric circles fly from SUPERPARENT'S head, summoning a bird that swoops down to pick up the snail and eat it in privacy

Child- Yay! Thanks SUPERPARENT!

SUPERPARENT-loud, dual voice Wash your hands for dinner.

Child- Awww...but I didn't touch the snail!

SUPERPARENT- WASH. YOUR HANDS.

Child- mutters something

SUPERPARENT- I HEARD THAT!

Child- But how-

SUPERPARENT- Super-hearing! Get in the bathroom PRONTO!

Child- awww....

SUPERPARENT POSE followed by return to two separate bodies


thejeff wrote:

Yeah. It could have been the writer thinking "Being a jerk is better than being gay."

It could also have been the writer thinking "Being a jerk fits the Beast's past history and character better than being gay does".

That's true, in most of the comics I've read The Beast always struck me as a sweetheart though, and very honest, though I haven't read nearly enough to get the whole picture over the years.


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Yuugasa wrote:
thejeff wrote:

Yeah. It could have been the writer thinking "Being a jerk is better than being gay."

It could also have been the writer thinking "Being a jerk fits the Beast's past history and character better than being gay does".
That's true, in most of the comics I've read The Beast always struck me as a sweetheart though, and very honest, though I haven't read nearly enough to get the whole picture over the years.

beast has had writers who loved him and writers who forgot what his powers were. Sometimes they were the same person.


Yuugasa wrote:
thejeff wrote:

Yeah. It could have been the writer thinking "Being a jerk is better than being gay."

It could also have been the writer thinking "Being a jerk fits the Beast's past history and character better than being gay does".
That's true, in most of the comics I've read The Beast always struck me as a sweetheart though, and very honest, though I haven't read nearly enough to get the whole picture over the years.

He's also had several major personality changes, apparently linked to his physical changes.

The original serious, bookish, big words nerd.
The out-going bubbly first blue-furred version.
The more serious, not so sweet more catlike blue furry version.


thejeff wrote:
Yuugasa wrote:
thejeff wrote:

Yeah. It could have been the writer thinking "Being a jerk is better than being gay."

It could also have been the writer thinking "Being a jerk fits the Beast's past history and character better than being gay does".
That's true, in most of the comics I've read The Beast always struck me as a sweetheart though, and very honest, though I haven't read nearly enough to get the whole picture over the years.

He's also had several major personality changes, apparently linked to his physical changes.

The original serious, bookish, big words nerd.
The out-going bubbly first blue-furred version.
The more serious, not so sweet more catlike blue furry version.

I stand corrected then=)


So I was stumbling around youtube looking for something to watch when I came upon This. Holy shiznit, I forgot about that, that was my themesong in middleschool, also I think the lead singer of Silverchair may have been one of the first crushes I ever had.

Ever run into something that gives you that blast from the past feeling?


Also remember when This song of theirs made me feel pumped for the future, seems ridiculously dated now, lol.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Yuugasa wrote:
Ever run into something that gives you that blast from the past feeling?

This song always brings me right back to my sophomore year in college.

I spent four years prostrate to the higher minds
Got my paper and I was free.


LordSynos wrote:
However, the reason I'm posting is because I recently came up against the no side posters, and kinda feel sick to my stomach. I really hope we prove ourselves a more enlightened nation on the 22nd of May.

Do the DUP do business south of the border? David Cameron has said that the Conservatives won't be validating their sexist and homophobic stances in his potential next term in office, but hasn't ruled out a coalition with them.


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I fit two of the LGBT-letters. L and T. Sadly, I've met considerable disapproval because of this over the years, but fortunately, I've also met incredible kindness and acceptance.

One of the more annoying things I've been met with, was someone telling me that you can't be transgendered -and- lesbian, because that apparently meant I was never transgendered to begin with.

Any amount of explanation that being transgendered was in fact not a sexual preference in itself, met with complete incomprehension and deaf ears.

Some people simply insist on being judgmental I guess ...


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The Alkenstarian wrote:

I fit two of the LGBT-letters. L and T. Sadly, I've met considerable disapproval because of this over the years, but fortunately, I've also met incredible kindness and acceptance.

One of the more annoying things I've been met with, was someone telling me that you can't be transgendered -and- lesbian, because that apparently meant I was never transgendered to begin with.

Any amount of explanation that being transgendered was in fact not a sexual preference in itself, met with complete incomprehension and deaf ears.

Some people simply insist on being judgmental I guess ...

Same situation here-only that I'm out to a friends right now. However, a fair number of them had the same confuzzlsation that you stated-only I eventually explained. After about a week, of course, of confusion and miscommunication.


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I find that people who don't think you can be LGB and T at the same time, to be profoundly misunderstanding what being transgender is. They think they get it, but they actually don't.

Silver Crusade System Administrator

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The Alkenstarian wrote:

I fit two of the LGBT-letters. L and T. Sadly, I've met considerable disapproval because of this over the years, but fortunately, I've also met incredible kindness and acceptance.

One of the more annoying things I've been met with, was someone telling me that you can't be transgendered -and- lesbian, because that apparently meant I was never transgendered to begin with.

Any amount of explanation that being transgendered was in fact not a sexual preference in itself, met with complete incomprehension and deaf ears.

Some people simply insist on being judgmental I guess ...

Yeah, I got a little bit of that too. But I got a lovely wife and am happy with who I am so screw those guys. =)

Liberty's Edge

* Rimshot for the pun.


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I'm functionally asexual (yes, I occasionally get horny, but I really don't want to do the nasty with anyone) and I'll freely say that I often don't get half the stuff that goes on in this thread. Fortunately my comprehension isn't necessary: just my support as a functional human being. :)


The Alkenstarian wrote:

I fit two of the LGBT-letters. L and T. Sadly, I've met considerable disapproval because of this over the years, but fortunately, I've also met incredible kindness and acceptance.

One of the more annoying things I've been met with, was someone telling me that you can't be transgendered -and- lesbian, because that apparently meant I was never transgendered to begin with.

Any amount of explanation that being transgendered was in fact not a sexual preference in itself, met with complete incomprehension and deaf ears.

Some people simply insist on being judgmental I guess ...

A variation of that same kind of thing messed me up pretty bad in my early 20s.


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Krensky wrote:
And it not like it matters anyway since he's gonna cease to exist in a few weeks to months anyway when Marvel reboots everything.

Apparently not. Or at least, the effects of this won't go away. Marvel's editor-in-chief has said this will not be wiped away by the reboot, and that this is who the character is moving forward.

My reaction to the scenes has been more positive, particularly when placed within the context of the current series. (Particularly in regards to Jean's behavior throughout the series.) My reading lines up with those offered here, here, here, and here. At the same time, I do respect those readings that view the scenes more negatively, and think a lot of good points have been made. (And just so I'm not unclear, I do think what Jean does is not great, and the language she uses is extremely clumsy, and I'd be happy if Bobby were bi instead of gay.)

But I think that the fact that so many people have spoken up about their concerns, particularly bi people, has been one good thing to come out this. Hopefully, this will lead to greater bi awareness for a lot of people, and for people working in the mainstream comics industry in particular. I mean, I'm always an optimist about these things, but I do think this is going to have a positive impact in the long run.


Shadow Knight 12 wrote:
I think a good reaction to have as a general consumer audience would've been something like "That's cool, thanks for adding inclusivity! Would've made more sense if he had been bi, though! :)"

I don't know if it necessarily makes more sense for the teenage version of Bobby to think he's bi, though. That's the thing. Sure, in his adult life, he was in a lot of relationships with women. And possibly, the adult version of Bobby views himself as bi. But if he does, that doesn't mean that his teenage self couldn't have viewed himself as gay.

If you'd asked me in my teens what my sexual identity was, I would have said straight (because I was still confused about what was going on with my gender identity, and hadn't worked out that trans woman attracted to women = lesbian. I didn't even have the language for that then). If you'd asked me in my 20s, I'd have said I was a lesbian (as I knew I was a woman, and I thought I was exclusively attracted to women.) If you'd have asked me in my mid-30s, I'd have said bi (as I came to understand that I was attracted to men too.)

A person's understanding of their sexual identity can shift over the course of their life. That may be what's going on with Bobby. Or at least, that potential is there. And given that potential, I don't think one can say that making Bobby bi "makes more sense" because of his adult self's relationship history. (It does make sense, however, from the perspective of there being more gay male Marvel characters than bi male Marvel characters.)

I think the arguments that bi-erasure is going on in these scenes are on much stronger grounds when they focus on those two panels where Bobby and Jean discuss the possibility of Bobby being bi, but then reject that possibility. I can see bi-erasure as a reading of that part of the conversation. I still don't think that's what's going on, but I think that's where you can most convincingly make that argument.

But to say, as some people have, that Bobby's later relationships with women mean that teen Bobby should have been written as viewing himself as bi, I actually find that notion problematic, and maybe a little painful, as it erases the sort of experiences I've had in coming to understand my sexual identity, and which I know other people have had as well.

Anyways, we should find out in Uncanny X-Men #600 what's up with old Bobby, and how this is going to work out, since Bendis has confirmed that teen Bobby and old Bobby are going to talk about this. It seems pretty likely that old Bobby's going to be depicted as gay but closeted. (Which I think is as valid as making Bobby, older or younger, bi.) For the sake of having more bi characters, I'd prefer the character end up being bi. But if he's not, he's not.

That's my take on things. I expect there will be some disagreement with that, which is okay. Like I said, I respect the criticisms that have been offered here, including what Lissa has said.

Liberty's Edge

KSF wrote:
Krensky wrote:
And it not like it matters anyway since he's gonna cease to exist in a few weeks to months anyway when Marvel reboots everything.

Apparently not. Or at least, the effects of this won't go away. Marvel's editor-in-chief has said this will not be wiped away by the reboot, and that this is who the character is moving forward.

My reaction to the scenes has been more positive, particularly when placed within the context of the current series. (Particularly in regards to Jean's behavior throughout the series.) My reading lines up with those offered here, here, here, and here. At the same time, I do respect those readings that view the scenes more negatively, and think a lot of good points have been made. (And just so I'm not unclear, I do think what Jean does is not great, and the language she uses is extremely clumsy, and I'd be happy if Bobby were bi instead of gay.)

But I think that the fact that so many people have spoken up about their concerns, particularly bi people, has been one good thing to come out this. Hopefully, this will lead to greater bi awareness for a lot of people, and for people working in the mainstream comics industry in particular. I mean, I'm always an optimist about these things, but I do think this is going to have a positive impact in the long run.

I may be too cynical, but I'll still take that with a grain of salt.

You see, Ultimate Iceman, native of Earth-1610 can remain gay even if he dies or ceases to exist along with the rest of Earth-1610.

Just like how I will not be surprised to learn at a later date that the MCU Maximoff twins are really Inhumans despite the studio saying that they weren't how that concept would be introduced since Agents of SHIELD took care of introducing the Inhuman concept already.


Krensky wrote:

I may be too cynical, but I'll still take that with a grain of salt.

You see, Ultimate Iceman, native of Earth-1610 can remain gay even if he dies or ceases to exist along with the rest of Earth-1610.

Just like how I will not be surprised to learn at a later date that the MCU Maximoff twins are really Inhumans despite the studio saying that they weren't how that concept would be introduced since Agents of SHIELD took care of introducing the Inhuman concept already.

Well, I'm definitely a less cynical person, so factor that in to my comments. (Though we're not talking about Ultimate Iceman from Earth 1610 in this case. Both versions are apparently from 616 Earth.)

Liberty's Edge

Well, same argument still applies... but...

Why are the X-Men tenagers again and adults at the same... No. Stop. I don't care. I don't need another migraine today.

I'm just going to ignore everything in the comics until this Crisis on Battleworld thing is over and see what the new status quo is and maybe start paying attention again then.

PS: Also, I wouldn call myself particularly cynical, I just expect a certain amount of... 'cute' and prevarication from editors and such regarding, well, everything but the future of their worlds/books/etc specifically.


Krensky wrote:

Well, same argument still applies... but...

Why are the X-Men tenagers again and adults at the same... No. Stop. I don't care. I don't need another migraine today.

I'm just going to ignore everything in the comics until this Crisis on Battleworld thing is over and see what the new status quo is and maybe start paying attention again then.

The teen version of the X-Men were brought forward from the past (by Beast), in the same 616 universe. That's been the underlying premise of All-New X-Men, the series where this is taking place.

What that means, what happens if the younger versions of the original X-Men can change themselves (or die), can they change themselves, should they change themselves, are they doomed to be wind up just like their older selves, how does it feel to be confronted with that, how does one respond to that, these have been the underlying dramatic questions that have been driving the overall narrative of the series. I've found it pretty compelling reading. In this same issue, #40, Warren (Angel) talks about exactly these issues, when he explains why he made some choices recently that apparently guarantee his life will be different from that of his older self. Jean's storyline has dealt with this, as has Cyclops'. (Hank's mostly just disappointed with his older self.) And this obviously can potentially play into Bobby's storyline as well.

So, it's a feature, not a bug.

But waiting till after Secret Wars before paying attention again, I can understand doing that.

Liberty's Edge

KSF wrote:
Krensky wrote:

Well, same argument still applies... but...

Why are the X-Men tenagers again and adults at the same... No. Stop. I don't care. I don't need another migraine today.

I'm just going to ignore everything in the comics until this Crisis on Battleworld thing is over and see what the new status quo is and maybe start paying attention again then.

The teen version of the X-Men were brought forward from the past (by Beast), in the same 616 universe. That's been the underlying premise of All-New X-Men, the series where this is taking place.

What that means, what happens if the younger versions of the original X-Men can change themselves (or die), can they change themselves, should they change themselves, are they doomed to be wind up just like their older selves, how does it feel to be confronted with that, how does one respond to that, these have been the underlying dramatic questions that have been driving the overall narrative of the series. I've found it pretty compelling reading. In this same issue, #40, Warren (Angel) talks about exactly these issues, when he explains why he made some choices recently that apparently guarantee his life will be different from that of his older self. Jean's storyline has dealt with this, as has Cyclops'. (Hank's mostly just disappointed with his older self.) And this obviously can potentially play into Bobby's storyline as well.

So, it's a feature, not a bug.

But waiting till after Secret Wars before paying attention again, I can understand doing that.

* Sends you the bill for a bottle of Excedrin Extra Strength.


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I prefer my early 90s X-Men, honestly. >_>


Krensky wrote:
* Sends you the bill for a bottle of Excedrin Extra Strength.

Sorry :)

Community Manager

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Ashiel wrote:
I prefer my early 90s X-Men, honestly. >_>

Me too.


Liz Courts wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
I prefer my early 90s X-Men, honestly. >_>
Me too.

Mid-80s X-Men for me.


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KSF wrote:
Krensky wrote:
* Sends you the bill for a bottle of Excedrin Extra Strength.
Sorry :)

As X-Men continuity goes, that's pretty simple.

If you really want to hurt him, explain the Summers Family Tree. :)

Edit: Late 70s to Mid-80s for me, though I only caught the first part of that after the fact. Phoenix through the start of the massive explosion of X-titles. Mutant Massacre or a little before.


Ashiel wrote:
I prefer my early 90s X-Men, honestly. >_>

Samnell pointed out to me the other day marvel has a comic subscription service along the lines of Netflix, stunned, I have joined and am now reading X-Men leading up to Fatal Attractions, which I never got to read fully as a child.

Thousands of comics at my finger tips, Aw yeah! Childhood dream come true=)

Silver Crusade System Administrator

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I haven't been keeping up really, but Crystal has mentioned that the new Cyclops comic was basically young cyclops meeting old cyclops and saying I really don't want to turn out to be that person so instead of rejecting his father, they go on space adventures together. Which, honestly, sounds pretty metal.


Lissa Guillet wrote:
I haven't been keeping up really, but Crystal has mentioned that the new Cyclops comic was basically young cyclops meeting old cyclops and saying I really don't want to turn out to be that person so instead of rejecting his father, they go on space adventures together. Which, honestly, sounds pretty metal.

Yeah, that spun out of All-New X-Men. And an X-Men/Guardians of the Galaxy crossover, now that I think of it.

I read the first five issues, which were written by Greg Rucka. Really good stuff, with some fine art by Russell Dauterman. It's pretty clear that Rucka was pouring his heart into it. Haven't read past the Rucka issues, so I don't know how the rest of the series has gone, but I'd definitely recommend checking out the first trade/storyline.


thejeff wrote:
Edit: Late 70s to Mid-80s for me, though I only caught the first part of that after the fact. Phoenix through the start of the massive explosion of X-titles. Mutant Massacre or a little before.

Yeah, me too. I started reading just after #200, then found back issues for everything back through #150. I'd put the Mutant Massacre (and maybe its aftermath) as the end of my golden period too. (Though there are a few good things that arrive after that, like Jubilee.)


Watching Bruce Jenner coming out as Transgender on ABC right now.


I might actually be thinking of 80s X-Men as well as a lot of my favorite comics had some age on 'em even when I was a kid. I also loved it when Todd McFarlane was still doing X-Men & Spiderman comics. :o

Shadow Lodge

Yuugasa wrote:
Watching Bruce Jenner coming out as Transgender on ABC right now.

You must be east coast, its not on for another hour and a half here. I set the TIVO to record it and will watch it without commercials tomorrow. I am curious to see how far he spins his story and how much he reveils.

You have to admit, it is probably nice to have money and not have to worry about basic survival or how you are going to pay for treatments, surgeries, drugs, electrolysis as well as making your daily bills and survival.

I was cut off when going through transition by family and moved across the country to start a new life. There were many years when jobs were scarce or not what I wanted to do all my life.

But the love of a partner and perseverance pays off, and true family eventually will reconnect.

I wouldn't trade my life, nor my path for Bruce's Millions.

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