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Yes, thanks for the recap of terminology, KSF. I was considering trying my hand at it, but it’s a daunting prospect, and you covered what I would have liked to. :)
As an aside, just to record the range of usage, I’m also writing from a place where “transsexual” is becoming less common than “transgender” or just “trans*,” but not necessarily or even often considered offensive as such. Then again, I’m writing from a part of Canada that seems in some ways to be stuck in a patch of slow time; we pick up on many trends a bit more slowly here. Anyway, for myself, I use “transsexual” to specify, when I do, the particular bit of the trans* umbrella I fall under, but normally I’ll just use “trans” when I want to indicate my trans* status.
Just for the sake of education I must ask: Is there a more PC way of expressing the feelings my brother in law or the woman in pres man's article feel than using the "I'm y trapped in x body." phrase? I would never tell my brother in law what he feels or how to say it but I would prefer to give him a heads up in case he might get negative feedback from any new trans people we meet.
As a lit major who’s really interested in how we tell stories, I have an interest in other trans* folks’ ways of describing their experiences, including in relation to their bodies. It’s tricky, because very often it’s difficult to strike the right balance between how serious the feelings can be and not inappropriately pathologizing the experience or being a bit too glib.
In my first readings on the subject, I remember running into the “trapped in the wrong body” metaphor, and it was a bit tempting, because it’s snappy and the idea is horrific, but at the end of the day, my body is my body, and not some robot suit over the “real” me.
It’s been a while, but I think, from what I dimly remember, I rather liked Jay Prosser’s metaphor of “second skins,” and his book of that title. As I applied it to my own experience, being assigned male was more like a surface phenomenon, an experience of the boundary between my sense of self and how I was perceived by the rest of the world that just felt wrong but fit as close as a second skin; the idea captured for me just how narrow the space can be within which one can work to distinguish one’s self from everything else, including social pressures on it. (Incidentally, my more or less professional work involves ideas about distributed personalities or personhood, but in a rather different context.) It wasn’t that my body didn’t feel like my body, but rather that there was this incongruous envelope or membrane that got in the way of me interacting properly with the world.
One of the ways I’ve been trying to work it out in my own terms is something like this. Have you ever been really, really sick to the point that it doesn’t really feel like it’s happening to you anymore? As much as you may feel each spasm or whatever, there’s just this body-wide sense of things going wrong with you? I had a bad case of pneumonia when I was young, and from the height of it, trying to purge my lungs of fluid and delirious with a 40-odd degree (Celsius, however that works out in barbarous Fahrenheit) fever, but still shivering with cold while wrapped in a comforter, what I remember most is finally beginning to dissociate myself from everything: I still felt gross and awful, but on some level I was getting used to my body going haywire, with a pervasive dull ache from nowhere on top of everything else, like this was the new normal. And then, when the worst was over, it took me a week or so to get back on my feet. That’s kind of what being trans felt like to me before I started seriously working on it (and especially, before getting anti-androgens): like riding out or just getting over an illness so serious that one’s whole body feels wrong. The catch is, of course, in terms of the limits of language, for me, being trans only kind-of-sort-of feels like that, and is not really that; from some points of view, my body is perfectly fine, and meanwhile I have to stress that being trans isn’t actually a sickness. Like I said, expressing it can be difficult.
Just one woman’s thoughts, while on the way to being just exactly the woman she wants to be.
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Just for the sake of education I must ask: Is there a more PC way of expressing the feelings my brother in law or the woman in pres man's article feel than using the "I'm y trapped in x body." phrase? I would never tell my brother in law what he feels or how to say it but I would prefer to give him a heads up in case he might get negative feedback from any new trans people we meet.
Generally speaking, my feeling is that gender variant people should be able to self-identify as they see fit. That includes using terms others might find outdated. (After all, we don't get our terminology updates from Trans High Command. :)
I can not read this article without getting angry on behalf of the children. I hope the ethical issues gets fixed before forcing children to get surgical compliance of societal norms.
I think that's an issue that has faced intersex people for quite some time now. Totally agree, forced surgery is a bad way to go.
It’s been a while, but I think, from what I dimly remember, I rather liked Jay Prosser’s metaphor of “second skins,” and his book of that title. As I applied it to my own experience, being assigned male was more like a surface phenomenon, an experience of the boundary between my sense of self and how I was perceived by the rest of the world that just felt wrong but fit as close as a second skin; the idea captured for me just how narrow the space can be within which one can work to distinguish one’s self from everything else, including social pressures on it. (Incidentally, my more or less professional work involves ideas about distributed personalities or personhood, but in a rather different context.) It wasn’t that my body didn’t feel like my body, but rather that there was this incongruous envelope or membrane that got in the way of me interacting properly with the world.
That's a pretty good description, IMHO, and matches what I used to feel, particularly as an adolescent. (That's why I identified with Rogue of the X-men so deeply at the time - she was cut off from all human contact and isolated due to her mutation.)
One of the ways I’ve been trying to work it out in my own terms is something like this. Have you ever been really, really sick to the point that it doesn’t really feel like it’s happening to you anymore? As much as you may feel each spasm or whatever, there’s just this body-wide sense of things going wrong with you? I had a bad case of pneumonia when I was young, and from the height of it, trying to purge my lungs of fluid and delirious with a 40-odd degree (Celsius, however that works out in barbarous Fahrenheit) fever, but still shivering with cold while wrapped in a comforter, what I remember most is finally beginning to dissociate myself from everything: I still felt gross and awful, but on some level I was getting used to my body going haywire, with a pervasive dull ache from nowhere on top of everything else, like this was the new normal. And then, when the worst was over, it took me a week or so to get back on my feet. That’s kind of what being trans felt like to me before I started seriously working on it (and especially, before getting anti-androgens): like riding out or just getting over an illness so serious that one’s whole body feels wrong. The catch is, of course, in terms of the limits of language, for me, being trans only kind-of-sort-of feels like that, and is not really that; from some points of view, my body is perfectly fine, and meanwhile I have to stress that being trans isn’t actually a sickness. Like I said, expressing it can be difficult.
Agree with that one as well. A pervasive, dull ache that one endures, prior to HRT. Nicely done, Qunnessaa.
Phrasing changes so quickly it makes my head spin. It pays to keep an ear to the ground to keep the chant up to date, but most people won't flip if your verbage shows your age. There are some things I think sound silly as well- the term "ally" makes me feel like more of a war asset and less of a person.Weeelll. Honestly, phrasing hasn't changed that much in the past, lets say 15 years. Transgender has become slightly less of an umbrella term and transsexual has generally fallen out of favor and the term for someone with Gender Dysphoria. But otherwise the phrasing hasn't changed a lot. The x in y's body really fell out of favor in at least the early 90's. It was used in a lot of talk shows as an oversimplification and it has ceased to be useful long ago.
I dunno. Since I run into many people of many different ages at work(whether I'm on the clock or off), I find that terminology depends very much on the amount of silver in one's hair.
Thanks Qunnessaa=)
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Just for the sake of education I must ask: Is there a more PC way of expressing the feelings my brother in law or the woman in pres man's article feel than using the "I'm y trapped in x body." phrase? I would never tell my brother in law what he feels or how to say it but I would prefer to give him a heads up in case he might get negative feedback from any new trans people we meet.Generally speaking, my feeling is that gender variant people should be able to self-identify as they see fit. That includes using terms others might find outdated. (After all, we don't get our terminology updates from Trans High Command. :)
I feel the same, just trying to spare my bro any overly awkward moments.
You don't get updates from Trans High Command?! I get all my best material from Awkward Dork High Command, it really helps to have professionals help you practice all the really mortifying social faux pas ahead of time so you can deliver them for your maximum personal embarrassment.
Not really sure how I would live my life without input from the overlords=)
Just for the sake of education I must ask: Is there a more PC way of expressing the feelings my brother in law or the woman in pres man's article feel than using the "I'm y trapped in x body." phrase? I would never tell my brother in law what he feels or how to say it but I would prefer to give him a heads up in case he might get negative feedback from any new trans people we meet.Generally speaking, my feeling is that gender variant people should be able to self-identify as they see fit. That includes using terms others might find outdated. (After all, we don't get our terminology updates from Trans High Command. :)
But I'm already on their mailing list...
Oh you poor sucker. Everyone knows that's a spam-trap.
So Constantine has been "cleaned up" for network consumption.
>:(
So Constantine has been "cleaned up" for network consumption.
>:(
whaaaaaaaaaa?
whaaaaaaaaaa?So Constantine has been "cleaned up" for network consumption.
>:(
Not surprised. I knew this was going to happen. The comics about John Constantine violate several broadcast standards, both written and unwritten; that's why the movie adaption was so different from the comics (the article references the movie adaption, not the comics).
They probably were sat down and outright told they have to cut something but not told what they have to cut, so they cut the bisexuality and depictions of smoking over having to cut something like the demonic deals he made.
They're probably just barely squeaking in as an acceptable show to broadcast even with these changes.
I don't know anything about Constantine but my understanding is that his bisexuality plays little to no role in the comics. If that's the case then they could have it mentioned in passing once in a while and call it good.
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So my wife and I hung out with the family today. There wasn't any meanness or nastiness like I feared but there was a whole lotta awkwardness, which informed me they definitely knew about my wife's coming out Facebook announcement and were uncomfortable with it. My wife didn't have a problem with it though, thinking things just needed time to normalize, so all was well.
Then soon before we leave my mom takes me aside and informs me about how she believes bi-sexuality is wrong, along with all the other sorts of 'gayness'.
My eyes roll back into my head as I think 'Here with go with the bigoted BS. I guess we really couldn't just have one nice day.'
Then she informs me that she can't really hold it against my wife though, after all, she is bi-sexual and has had sexual relationships with women in the past and she doesn't want to be a hypocrite.
Ha! Ok...what?...wait a minute...WTF MA?! WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL ME THIS YEARS AGO? THAT INFO COULD REALLY HAVE HELPED ME IN MY PERSONAL JOURNEY!
She was confused as to what I meant. So I told her 'I dunno maybe I wouldn't have felt so alone or confused if I had known being bi ran back in the family a generation or two.'
With that I turned and skipped away happily while whistling a show tune, like the gayest man who ever gayed up some gayness.
So my wife and I hung out with the family today. There wasn't any meanness or nastiness like I feared but there was a whole lotta awkwardness, which informed me they definitely knew about my wife's coming out Facebook announcement and were uncomfortable with it. My wife didn't have a problem with it though, thinking things just needed time to normalize, so all was well.
Then soon before we leave my mom takes me aside and informs me about how she believes bi-sexuality is wrong, along with all the other sorts of 'gayness'.
My eyes roll back into my head as I think 'Here with go with the bigoted BS. I guess we really couldn't just have one nice day.'
Then she informs me that she can't really hold it against my wife though, after all, she is bi-sexual and has had sexual relationships with women in the past and she doesn't want to be a hypocrite.
Ha! Ok...what?...wait a minute...WTF MA?! WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL ME THIS YEARS AGO? THAT INFO COULD REALLY HAVE HELPED ME IN MY PERSONAL JOURNEY!
She was confused as to what I meant. So I told her 'I dunno maybe I wouldn't have felt so alone or confused if I had known being bi ran back in the family a generation or two.'
With that I turned and skipped away happily while whistling a show tune, like the gayest man who ever gayed up some gayness.
:D
Hehheh, the above might sound like a negative interaction but it really wasn't. That was my family's version of a heartwarming tale of two relatives coming out to each other. I'm honestly not sure what to do next. It's awesome that my mom is Bi and that she is willing to show my wife some lee way in her 'dirty, sinful, life choices' (her actual words) but I'm not really sure if the same will apply to me.
I actually didn't really mean to come out. While I like men a lot having never been in a full relationship with one there are many questions about myself I myself have yet to fully answer. If we start having real open conversations I think my answers will be mostly "I'm not quite sure, let me think about that." which is fine, not very informative though.
Even if my family has a really bad reaction to it (which I'm hoping not, given their only awkward reaction to my wife) I guess it doesn't matter all that much seeing as they already have a pretty low opinion of me for being an atheist. (and all the lack of humanity and morals that entails to them.)
I honestly feel a little lost right now; Is this the beginning of something awesome or just a second checkmark against me on the 'you're an awful person' chart? or both?
Time will tell I guess but I'm definitely ending my day in a very different position than I began it.
Woooooooooooooow....
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I don't know anything about Constantine but my understanding is that his bisexuality plays little to no role in the comics. If that's the case then they could have it mentioned in passing once in a while and call it good.
Well, it's just another drop in the huge bucket of bisexual erasure.
Just for the sake of education I must ask: Is there a more PC way of expressing the feelings my brother in law or the woman in pres man's article feel than using the "I'm y trapped in x body." phrase? I would never tell my brother in law what he feels or how to say it but I would prefer to give him a heads up in case he might get negative feedback from any new trans people we meet.
I would think the most politically correct way to describe it would be the person's own words. Of course, I got ninja'd on that one, but we really need to let people be in control of their own narrative rather than press one upon them.
And as far as the whole issue of WotC's wording, I know the person who was responsible for that wording and they're certainly not ignorant of transgender issues. In fact, they've been dealing with such issues pretty closely for a while now. Some people may not like the wording, but they shouldn't make too many assumptions about what the person who wrote them knows or doesn't know.
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My birthday present to myself this year is 2 swimsuits and to spend the weekend as Cindy at a friend's house. She's going to invite people over I've never met. This should be interesting.
Hehheh, the above might sound like a negative interaction but it really wasn't. That was my family's version of a heartwarming tale of two relatives coming out to each other. I'm honestly not sure what to do next. It's awesome that my mom is Bi and that she is willing to show my wife some lee way in her 'dirty, sinful, life choices' (her actual words) but I'm not really sure if the same will apply to me.
I actually didn't really mean to come out. While I like men a lot having never been in a full relationship with one there are many questions about myself I myself have yet to fully answer. If we start having real open conversations I think my answers will be mostly "I'm not quite sure, let me think about that." which is fine, not very informative though.
Even if my family has a really bad reaction to it (which I'm hoping not, given their only awkward reaction to my wife) I guess it doesn't matter all that much seeing as they already have a pretty low opinion of me for being an atheist. (and all the lack of humanity and morals that entails to them.)
I honestly feel a little lost right now; Is this the beginning of something awesome or just a second checkmark against me on the 'you're an awful person' chart? or both?
Time will tell I guess but I'm definitely ending my day in a very different position than I began it.
Wow... Congrats, I think. It is fascinating that gayness should be a problem at all considering you really are an unrepentant atheist. I mean, people without God can't have any sort of morality, right? :-)
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Wow... Congrats, I think. It is fascinating that gayness should be a problem at all considering you really are an unrepentant atheist. I mean, people without God can't have any sort of morality, right? :-)
Yeah, can't quite follow the logic myself, not sure whats wrong with an enjoyment of wiener when when I've already rejected the one true deity's love.
Might just be because my atheism is old hat at this point to them.
Although I still do occasionally find myself being asked questions like:
'I don't understand, if you don't believe in God why aren't you out there raping and killing people all the time?'
Uh, because I find that to be horrific and stomach churning and I have absolutely no desire to do that...ever. But just out of curiosity (and a deep seated fear for my personal safety) if you didn't believe in God would YOU be out there rapin' and killin'?
That is one of the least satisfying arguments in evangelical thought (and I say that as someone exposed to quite a lot of creationist nonsense).
If you believe that God created everything and thus God is the only source of morality, justice etc., why wouldn't you believe that every human contains the knowledge of good and evil, even if said human has rejected God in his or her own life?
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That is one of the least satisfying arguments in evangelical thought (and I say that as someone exposed to quite a lot of creationist nonsense).
If you believe that God created everything and thus God is the only source of morality, justice etc., why wouldn't you believe that every human contains the knowledge of good and evil, even if said human has rejected God in his or her own life?
So says a guy that looks suspiciously like Asmodeus. *A hundred watching evangelical eyes narrow in suspicion*
That is one of the least satisfying arguments in evangelical thought (and I say that as someone exposed to quite a lot of creationist nonsense).
If you believe that God created everything and thus God is the only source of morality, justice etc., why wouldn't you believe that every human contains the knowledge of good and evil, even if said human has rejected God in his or her own life?
Hehe more seriously though I dunno. While I have actually met some quite cool Catholics in my time I suspect they lean more towards the liberal (?) side of Catholicism than my folks more fundamentalist take. Sometimes dealing with my family feels like banging my head against a wall, joyfully counting each tiny crack in the bricks while my brain bleeds out of my ears. I should prolly just give up but family means something to me even if I should have just dropped the whole matter long ago while citing irreconcilable differences.
Has anyone else here grown up in a fundamentalist religious family? If so how do you deal with them? (assuming your beliefs are different and also assuming you haven't been kicked out or that you do actually deal with them at all)
At this point all I got is be polite and don't say anything that will start an argument unless it's actually important.
Assistant Software Developer
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Well, yes and know. My mother was always of very serious faiths. Pentacostal for a few years and then christian science for many more. By and large my family has just dealt with it. My mother was, mostly, awesome once she got over the "is this my fault" part of it and the rest of the family can deal or jump off a cliff as far as we're concerned and most have dealt with it fine. But I'm pretty lucky in that way. I have had friends who were not so lucky and lost a good portion of their family.
It's really cool your mom came around=)
So today I got a call from a friend wanting me to help plan a surprise party for my wife to celebrate her coming out. That's what I love about the world we live in, just when I start feeling down in the dumps about how turd-like some people can act someone else reminds me that most people are pretty awesome=)
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My birthday present to myself this year is 2 swimsuits and to spend the weekend as Cindy at a friend's house. She's going to invite people over I've never met. This should be interesting.
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! DOO EET CINDY!!!
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Has anyone else here grown up in a fundamentalist religious family? If so how do you deal with them? (assuming your beliefs are different and also assuming you haven't been kicked out or that you do actually deal with them at all)
At this point all I got is be polite and don't say anything that will start an argument unless it's actually important.
Yep. I'm not on the best of terms with most of them. I already spent too much of my life trying to be something I'm not and I'm done with that. (Because teaching someone to hate themself does not actually create a loophole in that whole love your neighbor as yourself thing. Really.) And they're not too willing to deal with that. Seriously, you'd have thought that I confessed to being a serial killer or something. Being bi isn't that bad. :/
And I know from how they've treated other family members in the past that they say all kinds of bad stuff about me behind my back. And I realized that not only did I not need the judgement that I didn't need the negativity. So I'm actually happier not being around them. Sometimes I have to be and on those occasions I try to be polite, but also keep my distance. There's no point in arguing with them. Unless they're being evil to my kid. I refuse to be non-confrontational about that.That said, my sisters are actually cool about the whole thing. It's hard on the youngest because she gets caught in the middle cause she's the 'good' sister (still goes to church, doesn't drink, etc, etc), but she's actually never been anything but loving and accepting towards me. Even when they give her a hard time. So not all of my family sucks.
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Has anyone else here grown up in a fundamentalist religious family? If so how do you deal with them? (assuming your beliefs are different and also assuming you haven't been kicked out or that you do actually deal with them at all)
At this point all I got is be polite and don't say anything that will start an argument unless it's actually important.
I grew up in a Mormon family (and fundamentalism is much more subdued here in the UK), but being straight, my own 'coming out' was simply that, as a youth, I'd thought it through and realised that God was as real as Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy.
To this day, I have long conversations with my father on various subjects (including religion), but it is a loving relationship and we respectfully agree to disagree, and we can even debate it without falling out.
I'm lucky that my father avoids the kind of 'holier than thou' hypocrisy is so frequently see in God-botherers. : )
I'm going to see if this can be an actual birthday party. I'm going to see if we can get a bunch of pictures to share with everyone.
By the way, if anyone wants to see what Cindy is up to, I have a Facebook account you are welcome to friend. Just send me a message here.
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I just found out Dolly Parton is going to put out a dance album for the LGBT community.
http://m.billboard.com/entry/view/id/93669
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I'm going to see if this can be an actual birthday party. I'm going to see if we can get a bunch of pictures to share with everyone.
By the way, if anyone wants to see what Cindy is up to, I have a Facebook account you are welcome to friend. Just send me a message here.
I...may have to get facebook.
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I...may have to get facebook.I'm going to see if this can be an actual birthday party. I'm going to see if we can get a bunch of pictures to share with everyone.
By the way, if anyone wants to see what Cindy is up to, I have a Facebook account you are welcome to friend. Just send me a message here.
One of us...
I'm going to see if this can be an actual birthday party. I'm going to see if we can get a bunch of pictures to share with everyone.
By the way, if anyone wants to see what Cindy is up to, I have a Facebook account you are welcome to friend. Just send me a message here.
Sure, why not. Go ahead and PM me.
I am reading an article about hell that transgendered people have to go through to have their birth sex corrected.
I mentioned before that in Poland, while there is no law regulating it, the courts allowed for a way around the law - suing the parents about incorrectly stating the gender of the child on birth certificate. The article mentions troubles that transgendered people have to go through when the parents are uncooperative.
Recently the court decided, that in case of a m2f transperson, she has to sue her wife and (sired as male) children.
Polish law is not precedent-based (i.e. precedents are not binding), but because there is no actual regulations concerning legal sex change, courts look to existing cases for guidance.
*sigh*
Also, a mother of f2m kid struck the child with plant pot on head while the child was sleeping thinking it will "fix" the "craziness"...
Has anyone else here grown up in a fundamentalist religious family? If so how do you deal with them? (assuming your beliefs are different and also assuming you haven't been kicked out or that you do actually deal with them at all)
At this point all I got is be polite and don't say anything that will start an argument unless it's actually important.
Yep. I'm not on the best of terms with most of them. I already spent too much of my life trying to be something I'm not and I'm done with that. (Because teaching someone to hate themself does not actually create a loophole in that whole love your neighbor as yourself thing. Really.) And they're not too willing to deal with that. Seriously, you'd have thought that I confessed to being a serial killer or something. Being bi isn't that bad. :/
And I know from how they've treated other family members in the past that they say all kinds of bad stuff about me behind my back. And I realized that not only did I not need the judgement that I didn't need the negativity. So I'm actually happier not being around them. Sometimes I have to be and on those occasions I try to be polite, but also keep my distance. There's no point in arguing with them. Unless they're being evil to my kid. I refuse to be non-confrontational about that.
That said, my sisters are actually cool about the whole thing. It's hard on the youngest because she gets caught in the middle cause she's the 'good' sister (still goes to church, doesn't drink, etc, etc), but she's actually never been anything but loving and accepting towards me. Even when they give her a hard time. So not all of my family sucks.
Wow, sounds like your situation is pretty similar to mine. Solidarity. *fist bump*
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Also I laughed out loud when I read this line:
(Because teaching someone to hate themself does not actually create a loophole in that whole love your neighbor as yourself thing. Really.)
So, so true.
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Like the late and great Jerry Lewis one said, "You'd better love yourself, because you're stuck with you for your whole life."
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Yuugasa, it's always good to know that you're not the only one to go through something. And sometimes it's nice to not have someone think I'm unnatural because I'm not close to my family. And glad you appreciated the snark. ^.^
Odraude, I love that quote. I definitely wish I had figured that out earlier in life. It would have saved me a lot of grief.
Like the late and great Jerry Lewis one said, "You'd better love yourself, because you're stuck with you for your whole life."
But Jerry Lewis isn't dead.
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Like the late and great Jerry Lewis one said, "You'd better love yourself, because you're stuck with you for your whole life."But Jerry Lewis isn't dead.
*thump*
Now he is...
Like the late and great Jerry Lewis one said, "You'd better love yourself, because you're stuck with you for your whole life."But Jerry Lewis isn't dead.
Huh...so he is... so he is...
Yuugasa, it's always good to know that you're not the only one to go through something. And sometimes it's nice to not have someone think I'm unnatural because I'm not close to my family. And glad you appreciated the snark. ^.^
Odraude, I love that quote. I definitely wish I had figured that out earlier in life. It would have saved me a lot of grief.
Agreed, and it really is funny just how good you can feel just knowing you're not alone in your experiences. =)
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Know Direction has put up their recording of the Diversity in Gaming panel from PaizoCon2014. Give it a listen if you want to hear me swear a lot.
Know Direction has put up their recording of the Diversity in Gaming panel from PaizoCon2014. Give it a listen if you want to hear me swear a lot.
Nice. You know what they say. Swearing is caring!
I love listening to Know Direction. Especially their PaizoCon casts.