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So much for Title IX protection, it seems.


KSF wrote:
So much for Title IX protection, it seems.

If you can get religious exemptions from Title IX for trans* people, then why not to discriminate against cis women as well. That's pretty common in religions.


I wish I could say I was surprised. I also won't be surprised if this is just the beginning.


thejeff wrote:
KSF wrote:
So much for Title IX protection, it seems.
If you can get religious exemptions from Title IX for trans* people, then why not to discriminate against cis women as well. That's pretty common in religions.

Believe it or not, but the idea of religious challenges is something new; most of the opposition to Title IX accuses it of being sexist. There's even feminists who oppose it as it currently exists.


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This may not seem like a big deal to some but I went for a walk dressed up all by my lonesome. Sure it was 1 am but it was a mile walk along a road that was busier than I expected. There were no pedestrians but there were plenty of cars. One circled by twice. I got a little nervous but they never stopped. The point is that I did it without anyone there to support me in person. For me, that's a big deal.


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Bob_Loblaw wrote:
This may not seem like a big deal to some but I went for a walk dressed up all by my lonesome. Sure it was 1 am but it was a mile walk along a road that was busier than I expected. There were no pedestrians but there were plenty of cars. One circled by twice. I got a little nervous but they never stopped. The point is that I did it without anyone there to support me in person. For me, that's a big deal.

That's awesome Bob.


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Bob_Loblaw wrote:
This may not seem like a big deal to some but I went for a walk dressed up all by my lonesome. Sure it was 1 am but it was a mile walk along a road that was busier than I expected. There were no pedestrians but there were plenty of cars. One circled by twice. I got a little nervous but they never stopped. The point is that I did it without anyone there to support me in person. For me, that's a big deal.

You rock!


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WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

Liberty's Edge Contributor

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Lissa Guillet wrote:
Tirisfal wrote:

I'm really happy that they're taking this step, and I love the call-out to bearded lady dwarves, but I'm less than pleased with the problematic wording of a "man trapped in a woman's body" (which I've come to understand is an offensive phrase, though I could be wrong).

Anyway, I'm not familiar with D&D (I only played 3.5 twice in college before discovering Pathfinder), is this new or have they handled gender like this in the past?

I'm pleased that they are making the effort and hope they keep it up. That wording is really problematic and honestly hearing it makes we want to scream a little. As far as I know, this is new, but I've not played a lot of 3.5 or 4th edition really. Most of my experience was in 2nd edition. We'll see if it stands the test of time. I really hope it does and I will make the assumption that they are open to constructive criticism on the subject as long is it's constructive. =)

I feel the exact same way. I am pleased that they decided to mention us and that they had good intentions. I only wish those good intentions had come with a modicum of effort and research. People were calling out the "X trapped in a Y's body" narrative as insulting back in the 90s. Today, twenty years later, it makes a lot of trans people groan and try to leave quietly through the back door.


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Bob_Loblaw wrote:
This may not seem like a big deal to some but I went for a walk dressed up all by my lonesome. Sure it was 1 am but it was a mile walk along a road that was busier than I expected. There were no pedestrians but there were plenty of cars. One circled by twice. I got a little nervous but they never stopped. The point is that I did it without anyone there to support me in person. For me, that's a big deal.

Yay! Grats!

The Exchange

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Bob_Loblaw wrote:
This may not seem like a big deal to some but I went for a walk dressed up all by my lonesome. Sure it was 1 am but it was a mile walk along a road that was busier than I expected. There were no pedestrians but there were plenty of cars. One circled by twice. I got a little nervous but they never stopped. The point is that I did it without anyone there to support me in person. For me, that's a big deal.

It is always a big deal. Every single time. Even when it isn't, upon self-reflection later the angry mob never showed up, it is a wonderful sense of freedom. Big deal.


Crystal Frasier wrote:
Lissa Guillet wrote:
Tirisfal wrote:

I'm really happy that they're taking this step, and I love the call-out to bearded lady dwarves, but I'm less than pleased with the problematic wording of a "man trapped in a woman's body" (which I've come to understand is an offensive phrase, though I could be wrong).

Anyway, I'm not familiar with D&D (I only played 3.5 twice in college before discovering Pathfinder), is this new or have they handled gender like this in the past?

I'm pleased that they are making the effort and hope they keep it up. That wording is really problematic and honestly hearing it makes we want to scream a little. As far as I know, this is new, but I've not played a lot of 3.5 or 4th edition really. Most of my experience was in 2nd edition. We'll see if it stands the test of time. I really hope it does and I will make the assumption that they are open to constructive criticism on the subject as long is it's constructive. =)
I feel the exact same way. I am pleased that they decided to mention us and that they had good intentions. I only wish those good intentions had come with a modicum of effort and research. People were calling out the "X trapped in a Y's body" narrative as insulting back in the 90s. Today, twenty years later, it makes a lot of trans people groan and try to leave quietly through the back door.

This is far from the most insulting thing they considered about 5E (they had considered ability score limitations based on sex; it didn't go over so well).

That said, a modicum of effort and research... I'll say it depends on how educated about a topic a person is. The less educated, the more research they need to do. If they had no clue about it when they started out, then we're lucky they only ended up with the "X trapped in a Y's body" dialogue. Especially if they were doing this research on the internet.


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Bob_Loblaw wrote:
This may not seem like a big deal to some but I went for a walk dressed up all by my lonesome. Sure it was 1 am but it was a mile walk along a road that was busier than I expected. There were no pedestrians but there were plenty of cars. One circled by twice. I got a little nervous but they never stopped. The point is that I did it without anyone there to support me in person. For me, that's a big deal.

That's great Bob!

Liberty's Edge Contributor

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Bob_Loblaw wrote:
This may not seem like a big deal to some but I went for a walk dressed up all by my lonesome. Sure it was 1 am but it was a mile walk along a road that was busier than I expected. There were no pedestrians but there were plenty of cars. One circled by twice. I got a little nervous but they never stopped. The point is that I did it without anyone there to support me in person. For me, that's a big deal.

Congratulations! I still remember my first time going out alone. It's terrifying.


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Crystal Frasier wrote:
I feel the exact same way. I am pleased that they decided to mention us and that they had good intentions. I only wish those good intentions had come with a modicum of effort and research. People were calling out the "X trapped in a Y's body" narrative as insulting back in the 90s. Today, twenty years later, it makes a lot of trans people groan and try to leave quietly through the back door.

I've been thinking about that phrase since I heard about the new passage on sex and gender in the D&D rules. I think one reason I dislike it is it promotes or reinforces an unhealthy, alienated relationship with one's own body. It also makes the situation sound more hopeless than it is (or at least, more hopeless than it can potentially be). And it sounds like something from Jerry Springer, kind of sensationalized.

The body I have now is still the same as the one I had before I started transition, it's still my body. It just needed some work, and still needs some more work, to get it to where it needs to be.


I have a friend who has a swimming pool and she wants me to visit as Cindy. I have no idea what I'm doing when it comes to buying clothes and even less with swimsuits. This will be interesting.


KSF wrote:
Crystal Frasier wrote:
I feel the exact same way. I am pleased that they decided to mention us and that they had good intentions. I only wish those good intentions had come with a modicum of effort and research. People were calling out the "X trapped in a Y's body" narrative as insulting back in the 90s. Today, twenty years later, it makes a lot of trans people groan and try to leave quietly through the back door.

I've been thinking about that phrase since I heard about the new passage on sex and gender in the D&D rules. I think one reason I dislike it is it promotes or reinforces an unhealthy, alienated relationship with one's own body. It also makes the situation sound more hopeless than it is (or at least, more hopeless than it can potentially be). And it sounds like something from Jerry Springer, kind of sensationalized.

The body I have now is still the same as the one I had before I started transition, it's still my body. It just needed some work, and still needs some more work, to get it to where it needs to be.

To be honest, I think you misunderstand the phrase a bit.

It's not so much intended to promote such a relationship as to express it. I made some effort to trace down the origins of it and noted that the origins seem to go back to people expressing that unhealthy, alienated relationship with their bodies early on. Back around a time when "transgender" was first entering the public consciousness and people were first trying to get a handle on what it is and how to explain it. The language at the time was extremely crude and left out a lot of the nuances that exist today; people simply didn't know much about it, so a lot of the terminology and definitions used at the time are ones that are considered insulting today.

Unfortunately, it was that initial entry that caught the public's attention; the idea of "mind not matching body to the point the body needs fixed" not only entered into medicine, but also entered into the public perception of transgendered people among those who accepted transgenders. By the time it was more clearly understood, a lot of the public interest had been lost.

The issue of why I traced it down comes down to trying to understand the ignorance that fuels such statements; basically, I'm applying Sun Tsu's advice about trying to know both my enemy and myself to better understand how to educate on this. I made it a point to actually get out among the ignorant while I was gone and talk to them and find out their viewpoints (I was really, really bored and basically had nothing better to do than bother random strangers for months on end). Even more unfortunately, I've discovered just how deep ignorance goes; there's a number of people who still think "transgendered = gay" and "transgendered = transsexual" despite the blindingly obviously differences. Even more unfortunately, some of these people are transgender-friendly politicians. Which, in turn, is probably what led to the Title IX exclusion.

The other item I've noticed is that societal trends are working against transgender issues. Between cosplaying, people crossdressing for the fun of it, the very public knowledge of transsexuals, the very public knowledge of drag queens, and how even the adult entertainment industry manages to both confuse transgender with transsexual and outright imply that someone wishing fondly to be the opposite sex may just be a kink... Overall, understanding of transgendered issues has a lot stacked against it. There really is a massive amount of confusion about what
"transgendered" actually means among those who are not educated, and the internet makes it even worse by spreading misinformation and outdated wordings even more rapidly.

So, right now, even if the public has a high acceptance of transgendered people, the problem remains that what the public thinks is transgendered and what is actually transgendered are not necessarily even close to the same thing. It helps even less that part of the issue is that most media featuring transgendered people in a positive light tends to focus on the idea that they are not comfortable in their bodies, which reinforces the public's notion that "X trapped in a Y's body" is a legitimate way of expressing the issue. So it's most likely that the entire approach about educating the public has to be changed; just because the information is out there doesn't mean that an accurate form of it is actually reaching people and people are often not going to research something that doesn't affect them directly.


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
I have a friend who has a swimming pool and she wants me to visit as Cindy. I have no idea what I'm doing when it comes to buying clothes and even less with swimsuits. This will be interesting.

Get someone you trust to help you? I have to do that when shopping for certain articles of clothing that most people have no problems buying.


MagusJanus wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
I have a friend who has a swimming pool and she wants me to visit as Cindy. I have no idea what I'm doing when it comes to buying clothes and even less with swimsuits. This will be interesting.
Get someone you trust to help you? I have to do that when shopping for certain articles of clothing that most people have no problems buying.

Trying things on will be difficult for me. I may buy a few then return the ones I don't want. I was told that sizing is different.

Liberty's Edge Contributor

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One thing I get epically tired of as a trans woman is cis people telling me I "don't understand" trans issues.


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Bob_Loblaw wrote:
I have a friend who has a swimming pool and she wants me to visit as Cindy. I have no idea what I'm doing when it comes to buying clothes and even less with swimsuits. This will be interesting.

Just remember, dressing room mirrors flatter no one. Says the girl whose ideal swimsuit is a long sleeve swim shirt and board shorts...I am way too white to be showing half as much skin as most swimsuits show. Pale skin + sunshine = Owowowowowowwww. :P

In all seriousness, don't let swimsuit shopping get you too down. And I recommend Walmart. They have a surprisingly good selection.


I'm not a fan of Walmart. I may check it out though because I can bring several items into the dressing room without suspicion. It's harder to do that in a woman's clothing store.


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
MagusJanus wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
I have a friend who has a swimming pool and she wants me to visit as Cindy. I have no idea what I'm doing when it comes to buying clothes and even less with swimsuits. This will be interesting.
Get someone you trust to help you? I have to do that when shopping for certain articles of clothing that most people have no problems buying.
Trying things on will be difficult for me. I may buy a few then return the ones I don't want. I was told that sizing is different.

Sizing is a crapshoot, like most other women's clothing, but worse.


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
MagusJanus wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
I have a friend who has a swimming pool and she wants me to visit as Cindy. I have no idea what I'm doing when it comes to buying clothes and even less with swimsuits. This will be interesting.
Get someone you trust to help you? I have to do that when shopping for certain articles of clothing that most people have no problems buying.
Trying things on will be difficult for me. I may buy a few then return the ones I don't want. I was told that sizing is different.

Sizing varies way, way too much. You will definitely have to try them on a lot. I second Wal Mart, but be careful; some of the stores are worse than others in what and how they stock items. So if the clothing aisle looks a mess, run. Don't try anything on at all.


Crystal Frasier wrote:
One thing I get epically tired of as a trans woman is cis people telling me I "don't understand" trans issues.

That gets very annoying >.<

Even more so when some go "I'm a gay X trapped in a Y's body!" And then you really question it and discover they're not, but they're only saying it to try to fit in or sound cool.


Looks like I'm going to be in for a ride.


Take along someone with a good sense of humor, if you can. That should help a lot ;)


My uncle is in Latvia with the Sydney Gay and Lesbian Choir, they are competing in the World Choir Games, you can like the Choir on Facebook for some great pictures. It looks like they are having a wonderful time.

Also the Bingham Cup starts in August and they have a survey on Homophobia on the sporting field on their website at binghamcup.com

Ian Thorpe one of Australia's greatest Olympic swimmers has come out, it looks like he had a very hard time struggling with his identity.

I hope everybody is doing well.

T8D


MagusJanus wrote:
Take along someone with a good sense of humor, if you can. That should help a lot ;)

I'm going to drag a friend along tonight. I may not buy anything today but I'm going to get some help.


MagusJanus wrote:

To be honest, I think you misunderstand the phrase a bit.

It's not so much intended to promote such a relationship as to express it

Oh no, I get that. I just think it's an unhealthy way to think of oneself.


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MagusJanus wrote:
Crystal Frasier wrote:
One thing I get epically tired of as a trans woman is cis people telling me I "don't understand" trans issues.
That gets very annoying >.<

In my experience, often it's best for cis allies to just listen to what people of trans* experience have to say, instead of immediately trying to "help" by re-explaining or re-interpreting those experiences and concerns... those points are perfectly fine and valid exactly as the trans* person shared them.

For example, I can't pretend to understand the unique experiences, concerns, and social stresses that people with bisexual experiences have gone, and will go, through... but since they are the one that has lived with it for decades and I haven't, it seems prudent for me to trust them when they say something is troublesome or rings false about a particular phrase or narrative, especially when it is perpetuated by hetero (or strictly gay or lesbian) people.

Apologies if this is more opaque than mud; I'm rolling low and may have granted partial or totally concealment to the actual point.

Silver Crusade

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Crystal Frasier wrote:
Lissa Guillet wrote:
I'm pleased that they are making the effort and hope they keep it up. That wording is really problematic and honestly hearing it makes we want to scream a little. As far as I know, this is new, but I've not played a lot of 3.5 or 4th edition really. Most of my experience was in 2nd edition. We'll see if it stands the test of time. I really hope it does and I will make the assumption that they are open to constructive criticism on the subject as long is it's constructive. =)
I feel the exact same way. I am pleased that they decided to mention us and that they had good intentions. I only wish those good intentions had come with a modicum of effort and research. People were calling out the "X trapped in a Y's body" narrative as insulting back in the 90s. Today, twenty years later, it makes a lot of trans people groan and try to leave quietly through the back door.
MagusJanus wrote:
I made it a point to actually get out among the ignorant while I was gone and talk to them and find out their viewpoints (I was really, really bored and basically had nothing better to do than bother random strangers for months on end). Even more unfortunately, I've discovered just how deep ignorance goes; there's a number of people who still think "transgendered = gay" and "transgendered = transsexual" despite the blindingly obviously differences. Even more unfortunately, some of these people are transgender-friendly politicians. [...] Overall, understanding of transgendered issues has a lot stacked against it. There really is a massive amount of confusion about what

Just remember that a bunch of us who aren't hip to current trans-proprieties are willing, even eager to learn! :-)

I'm very sorry to say that my experience with my friends who move in trans circles has been mostly negative in this regard. I grew up in the South and attended a Baptist college where gender & sexuality discussions were strongly discouraged. As a result, I just haven't been exposed to a lot of stuff that my friends take completely for granted (rather the way that your comment does, Crystal). But whenever it comes out that I don't quite understand whatever the latest politeness is, instead of a friendly "hey, please don't say that say this instead here are some reasons why", I've gotten a lot of dismissive, oh you must be a bigot reactions.

Which doesn't seem to me to be very helpful for the (good) cause, when I'm there and *trying* to listen (as AmbrosiaSlaad rightly advises), and I'm shut out instead of engaged with. :-/

I feel that's worth mentioning in this context, where a bunch of folks went straight to "oh that phrase is awful" without stopping to say why. Sure, it's an ugly and juvenile phrase and I would never use it just for those reasons. But why is it *really* problematic? KSF, your thoughts here were very helpful to me in starting to see why. So thanks! :-)

KSF wrote:
Crystal Frasier wrote:
I feel the exact same way. I am pleased that they decided to mention us and that they had good intentions. I only wish those good intentions had come with a modicum of effort and research. People were calling out the "X trapped in a Y's body" narrative as insulting back in the 90s. Today, twenty years later, it makes a lot of trans people groan and try to leave quietly through the back door.

I've been thinking about that phrase since I heard about the new passage on sex and gender in the D&D rules. I think one reason I dislike it is it promotes or reinforces an unhealthy, alienated relationship with one's own body. It also makes the situation sound more hopeless than it is (or at least, more hopeless than it can potentially be). And it sounds like something from Jerry Springer, kind of sensationalized.

The body I have now is still the same as the one I had before I started transition, it's still my body. It just needed some work, and still needs some more work, to get it to where it needs to be.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
MagusJanus wrote:
Crystal Frasier wrote:
One thing I get epically tired of as a trans woman is cis people telling me I "don't understand" trans issues.
That gets very annoying >.<

In my experience, often it's best for cis allies to just listen to what people of trans* experience have to say, instead of immediately trying to "help" by re-explaining or re-interpreting those experiences and concerns... those points are perfectly fine and valid exactly as the trans* person shared them.

I can't pretend to understand the unique experiences, concerns, and social stresses that say, people with bisexual experiences, have and will go through... but since they are the one that has lived with it for decades and I haven't, it seems prudent for me to trust them when they say something is troublesome or rings false about a particular phrase or narrative, especially when it is perpetuated by hetero (or strictly gay or lesbian) people.

Agreed. I'm a strait(-ish) cis male ally, and while I have many friends that are LGB, I've never had any trans people in my circle of friends.

Honestly, I didn't know until about a year and a half ago that the phrase "woman trapped in a man's body" or the reverse was offensive-- I thought it was decriptive. And I thought I was up on LBBT issues!

(I learned that the term was verboten when I used it on anotther Internet board where I was trying to be supportive, and got my head gnawed off-- to the point where I had to leave that online community.)


More fallout from the Hobby Lobby decision

So, basically, people are making the fight to use the Hobby Lobby decision to strip gay people of all of their rights. [sarcasm]Really, really nice.[/sarcasm]


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KSF wrote:
MagusJanus wrote:

To be honest, I think you misunderstand the phrase a bit.

It's not so much intended to promote such a relationship as to express it

Oh no, I get that. I just think it's an unhealthy way to think of oneself.

My apologies. And I agree; it is an unhealthy way to view oneself. Just wish the phrase wasn't so common.


Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
MagusJanus wrote:
Crystal Frasier wrote:
One thing I get epically tired of as a trans woman is cis people telling me I "don't understand" trans issues.
That gets very annoying >.<

In my experience, often it's best for cis allies to just listen to what people of trans* experience have to say, instead of immediately trying to "help" by re-explaining or re-interpreting those experiences and concerns... those points are perfectly fine and valid exactly as the trans* person shared them.

For example, I can't pretend to understand the unique experiences, concerns, and social stresses that people with bisexual experiences have gone, and will go, through... but since they are the one that has lived with it for decades and I haven't, it seems prudent for me to trust them when they say something is troublesome or rings false about a particular phrase or narrative, especially when it is perpetuated by hetero (or strictly gay or lesbian) people.

Apologies if this is more opaque than mud; I'm rolling low and may have granted partial or totally concealment to the actual point.

As Haladir pointed out, part of the problem is that some people are allies who simply have absolutely no direct connection and, thus, have no one to listen to. Unfortunately, this includes politicians as well. Add to that how horrible the internet, and even Google, can be when researching any topic and you get a scenario where people could make every effort to learn, but still end up with either no increase in knowledge or an even worse idea of what is going on.

So, often, people are not re-explaining what they hear from trans people, but what they heard from a friend of a friend of a friend of a... Or just reexplaining whatever inaccurate information they found on some random website, some of which may be outright confusing or contradictory and which caused them to have to interpret the information. Unfortunately, these people are going to probably be the majority of voters and, thus, the people necessary to actually make laws more inclusive.

The Exchange

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Passing along an experience from my former life in the military. The DADT was repealed or dying BUT I've had personal past experience with surviving one overt hunt/purge due to a former barrack and roommate who was outed, discharged and I got along with, plus my own closeted but suspected issues. And more subtle questioning even years later on. Yes I knew, confirmed and kept that knowledge to myself before, during and after which probably added suspicion as to my status. Those were some fun times. [/sarcasm]
Sums up the paranoid background, without going into detail.

So near the endtimes of DADT, I was providing and supervising a week long training for one of our field units and observed a female enlisted with masculine traits. Didn't say anything just noted it quietly to myself, figured I'd write their certificate of completion/qualification in gender neutral phrasing and initialed name vs full name. Not only am I an LGBT ally, but I am also a member. :-)

What pleasantly surprised me was the grassroots support for him. Throughout the week, several folks (his peers) quietly and individually took me aside (unbeknownst to each other) stating the person's desire to avoid female designators or preferred gender neutral nomenclature. It was heartening to see the change in attitude and support for a crewmate trying to do his job regardless of gender expression.

On the other hand, I was a little discouraged by my own status and experiences. Plus my current command supervising the field unit was hostile/toxic environment, intolerant of anyone who was not a sycophant, much less room for self-expression. I kept him under the radar. I was envious but happy for him. I occasionally wonder where he is now.

RecknBall

Silver Crusade

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Bob_Loblaw wrote:
MagusJanus wrote:
Take along someone with a good sense of humor, if you can. That should help a lot ;)
I'm going to drag a friend along tonight. I may not buy anything today but I'm going to get some help.

I'm at work, it's twenty-to-six in the morning, and when I scanned this post my brain made the sentence say, 'I'm going to drag up a friend', meaning 'dress a friend in drag'(!).

I thought it was a bit extreme, but you gotta do what you gotta do.... : )


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
MagusJanus wrote:
Take along someone with a good sense of humor, if you can. That should help a lot ;)
I'm going to drag a friend along tonight. I may not buy anything today but I'm going to get some help.

I'm at work, it's twenty-to-six in the morning, and when I scanned this post my brain made the sentence say, 'I'm going to drag up a friend', meaning 'dress a friend in drag'(!).

I thought it was a bit extreme, but you gotta do what you gotta do.... : )

Funny but I thought the same thing after I wrote it.

Liberty's Edge Contributor

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Joe M. wrote:

Just remember that a bunch of us who aren't hip to current trans-proprieties are willing, even eager to learn! :-)

I'm very sorry to say that my experience with my friends who move in trans circles has been mostly negative in this regard. I grew up in the South and attended a Baptist college where gender & sexuality discussions were strongly discouraged. As a result, I just haven't...

Oh, I don't mind individuals being a little ignorant on trans experience. I'm much more understanding when individuals slip up but are obviously trying. And again, even in this case I'm happy WotC wanted to be inclusive and I'm not foaming at the mouth over their poor choice of phrasing. I'm just exasperated, because if they wanted to be inclusive, and were going to use their position as one of the top game publishers in the world to advocate for something, then they should have made sure they were advocating for things accurately.

As you said, a lot of people are ignorant or have misconceptions, and things like this so many misconceptions persist.


Yeah, and to make things even more complicated feeling like 'I'm x trapped in y body' is a real experience for some, though not a positive one. My brother in law often says he feel like a man trapped in a women's body. I understand some of the frustration for him comes from not being able to pass because he is so feminine looking that no matter how he dresses or wears his hair there is little chance the average person will see him as a man.


Joe M. wrote:
Crystal Frasier wrote:
Lissa Guillet wrote:
I'm pleased that they are making the effort and hope they keep it up. That wording is really problematic and honestly hearing it makes we want to scream a little. As far as I know, this is new, but I've not played a lot of 3.5 or 4th edition really. Most of my experience was in 2nd edition. We'll see if it stands the test of time. I really hope it does and I will make the assumption that they are open to constructive criticism on the subject as long is it's constructive. =)
I feel the exact same way. I am pleased that they decided to mention us and that they had good intentions. I only wish those good intentions had come with a modicum of effort and research. People were calling out the "X trapped in a Y's body" narrative as insulting back in the 90s. Today, twenty years later, it makes a lot of trans people groan and try to leave quietly through the back door.
MagusJanus wrote:
I made it a point to actually get out among the ignorant while I was gone and talk to them and find out their viewpoints (I was really, really bored and basically had nothing better to do than bother random strangers for months on end). Even more unfortunately, I've discovered just how deep ignorance goes; there's a number of people who still think "transgendered = gay" and "transgendered = transsexual" despite the blindingly obviously differences. Even more unfortunately, some of these people are transgender-friendly politicians. [...] Overall, understanding of transgendered issues has a lot stacked against it. There really is a massive amount of confusion about what

Just remember that a bunch of us who aren't hip to current trans-proprieties are willing, even eager to learn! :-)

'm very sorry to say that my experience with my friends who move in trans circles has been mostly negative in this regard. I grew up in the South and attended a Baptist college where gender & sexuality discussions were strongly discouraged. As a result, I just haven't been exposed to a lot of stuff that my friends take completely for granted (rather the way that your comment does, Crystal). But whenever it comes out that I don't quite understand whatever the latest politeness is, instead of a friendly "hey, please don't say that say this instead here are some reasons why", I've gotten a lot of dismissive, oh you must be a bigot reactions.

Haladir wrote:
Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
MagusJanus wrote:
Crystal Frasier wrote:
One thing I get epically tired of as a trans woman is cis people telling me I "don't understand" trans issues.
That gets very annoying >.<

In my experience, often it's best for cis allies to just listen to what people of trans* experience have to say, instead of immediately trying to "help" by re-explaining or re-interpreting those experiences and concerns... those points are perfectly fine and valid exactly as the trans* person shared them.

I can't pretend to understand the unique experiences, concerns, and social stresses that say, people with bisexual experiences, have and will go through... but since they are the one that has lived with it for decades and I haven't, it seems prudent for me to trust them when they say something is troublesome or rings false about a particular phrase or narrative, especially when it is perpetuated by hetero (or strictly gay or lesbian) people.

Agreed. I'm a strait(-ish) cis male ally, and while I have many friends that are LGB, I've never had any trans people in my circle of friends.

Honestly, I didn't know until about a year and a half ago that the phrase "woman trapped in a man's body" or the reverse was offensive-- I thought it was decriptive. And I thought I was up on LBBT issues!

(I learned that the term was verboten when I used it on anotther Internet board where I was trying to be supportive, and got my head gnawed off-- to the point where I had to leave that online community.)

Phrasing changes so quickly it makes my head spin. It pays to keep an ear to the ground to keep the chant up to date, but most people won't flip if your verbage shows your age. There are some things I think sound silly as well- the term "ally" makes me feel like more of a war asset and less of a person.


Some people see this as a civil rights war, and in that context "ally" is appropriate. I do see where you're coming from though. Maybe "supporter" would be a better choice or better yet, "friend."

Silver Crusade Assistant Software Developer

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Freehold DM wrote:
Phrasing changes so quickly it makes my head spin. It pays to keep an ear to the ground to keep the chant up to date, but most people won't flip if your verbage shows your age. There are some things I think sound silly as well- the term "ally" makes me feel like more of a war asset and less of a person.

Weeelll. Honestly, phrasing hasn't changed that much in the past, lets say 15 years. Transgender has become slightly less of an umbrella term and transsexual has generally fallen out of favor and the term for someone with Gender Dysphoria. But otherwise the phrasing hasn't changed a lot. The x in y's body really fell out of favor in at least the early 90's. It was used in a lot of talk shows as an oversimplification and it has ceased to be useful long ago.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Lissa Guillet wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Phrasing changes so quickly it makes my head spin. It pays to keep an ear to the ground to keep the chant up to date, but most people won't flip if your verbage shows your age. There are some things I think sound silly as well- the term "ally" makes me feel like more of a war asset and less of a person.
Weeelll. Honestly, phrasing hasn't changed that much in the past, lets say 15 years. Transgender has become slightly less of an umbrella term and transsexual has generally fallen out of favor and the term for someone with Gender Dysphoria. But otherwise the phrasing hasn't changed a lot. The x in y's body really fell out of favor in at least the early 90's. It was used in a lot of talk shows as an oversimplification and it has ceased to be useful long ago.

Speaking of phrasing, and sorry to be blunt here, these forums are pretty much the only source of LGBT interactions I have, but when referring to a trans person what terms are acceptable or that you're okay with?


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Well to be fair, there are still trans individuals that are using the phrase.


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Changing the subject, I saw an interesting article on Slate this weekend about censorship and LGBT publications.

The premise of the article is, "Whenever a government gains the ability to censor publications, LGBT publications are the first to get censored."

Even in liberal democracies.

And the example they cited was Canada.

Canada?!? Really?

Yup.


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Rysky wrote:
Speaking of phrasing, and sorry to be blunt here, these forums are pretty much the only source of LGBT interactions I have, but when referring to a trans person what terms are acceptable or that you're okay with?

I'll preface this by saying this is my own understanding, and if anyone feels I'm getting something wrong, please correct or expand what I've said here.

1. The term "Gender Dysphoria" has replaced the previous medical term, "Gender Identity Disorder," following a medical reclassification of transgenderism (or transsexuality) about a year or so ago.

2. Transgender and trans (or trans*) are the general terms to use, with trans man and trans woman for individuals. Trans man = someone who transitioned to male, trans woman = someone who transitioned to female.

There's also the terms female to male (ftm) and male to female (mtf). I feel like I see the abbreviations more often than the spelled out terms. And I think trans man and trans woman are more commonly used nowadays.

3. Transgender and trans have been, generally speaking, umbrella terms for a number of different gender variant people (including cross dressers, genderqueer and drag), though as Lissa notes, it seems to have evolved and shrunk and become more specific. (And drag may be on the way out of the umbrella after the arguments over "tranny" the past several months. I think it'd be a shame if that happened - I'm a fan of an inclusive umbrella.)

As Lissa also notes, transsexual seems to have fallen out of favor, basically replaced by transgender, but I don't think it would be viewed as outright offensive by most. (Though I did see someone on twitter react this way recently.) I rarely use it myself, except to specify my place under the larger trans umbrella. I used it in my coming out letters, for example, but in daily use, I refer to myself as trans or transgender or a trans woman. (Or simply as a woman :)

4. Some might also say something like, "I identify as male," or "I identify as female." (Or variations like, "I'm female identified.") Again speaking from personal experience, saying "I identify as female" is something I was more likely to say before beginning transition. Nowadays, I'd just say "I'm female." This is from my perspective as someone who is in the middle of transition. It may vary for others.

5. Pronouns are important. If you're uncertain about pronouns, you might ask the person what they prefer. Many trans women use she, her, hers, and trans men, he, him, his. Some prefer to use they, them and their. Some prefer general neutral pronouns like ze/zie and zir, or zhe, zher, zhim.

6. "Born a man" or "Born a woman" seems to have fallen out of favor, replaced by "Male assigned at birth" or "Female assigned at birth" (MAAB or FAAB). Those aren't terms I use regularly, but they can be useful in some situations.

7. And while we're on the negative/don't use side, "Pre-Op" and "Post-Op" (Op = Operation) also seem to have fallen out of favor, since they can support the idea that trans people are not their true genders until after surgery. This is a highly problematic notion, given the economic and other barriers to gender surgery, and given that some trans people opt to not have surgery, for various reasons. (It's also a notion that impacts policy on birth certificate changes, as well as the current bathroom debate.)

Then there's the term "transgendered." I've seen a lot of rejection of the term "transgendered" in the past couple years, but I've also heard older trans people use it, so that may be a generational thing.

8. And finally, tranny is viewed by many as a slur these days, particularly outside of a drag context. There are some who still self-identify with the term, including trans activist Kate Bornstein and some trans-identified drag performers (like Justin Vivian Bond). It also has a complicated and not always negative history. But generally, it's a term to avoid unless an individual tells you it's okay to use in regards to themselves. (And it's probably best to let them volunteer that, rather than ask them.)

(Julia Serano writes about the history of the term, and her history with it, here, with related essays here, here, and here, all of which are in response to the debate about "tranny" between and within the trans, drag and gay communities, which blew up earlier this year, primarily centered around RuPaul's Drag Race.)

9. It's rude to ask about the state of a trans person's genitals. So avoid doing that.

Okay, that's all I got. I'm sure others could add to it. And much of the above is a bit on the binary gender side of things - someone who identifies as genderqueer, gender fluid, agender, etc. could give you a better idea on their preferences.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Okay, many thankies KSF :3


Just for the sake of education I must ask: Is there a more PC way of expressing the feelings my brother in law or the woman in pres man's article feel than using the "I'm y trapped in x body." phrase? I would never tell my brother in law what he feels or how to say it but I would prefer to give him a heads up in case he might get negative feedback from any new trans people we meet.

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