Something interesting posted on EnWorld.
Jonathan Tweet & Rob Heinsoo: Making their own 5th Edition?
Furthering the tradition in which the people who are laid off or otherwise shed by WotC end up competing directly with them, and often doing a better job? Or just another fantasy heart-breaker?
The full release
Veteran Game Designers Rob Heinsoo and Jonathan Tweet Announce 13th Age: a “Love Letter” to Their Favorite Dungeon-Crawling Fantasy Game
Upcoming game to combine old-school aesthetics with innovations in independent game design
Seattle, WA— This past weekend, Jonathan Tweet – lead designer of Dungeons & Dragons® third edition – spoke publicly for the first time about 13th Age, the new fantasy roleplaying game that he is designing with Rob Heinsoo, the lead designer of the fourth edition of D&D®.
"Our goal with 13th Age is to recapture the free-wheeling style of old-school gaming by creating a game with more soul and fewer technical details,” said Tweet, who spoke alongside other game industry veterans on panels at Norwescon 35, a fantasy, science fiction and gaming convention in Seattle.
Tweet continued, “13th Age makes the play group’s campaign the center of attention, with a toolkit of rules that you can pick and choose from based on the kind of game you want to play. The mechanics of 13th Age draw from classic games as well as newer, story-based games.”
Players of 13th Age take the roles of fortune-seeking adventurers in a world where powerful individuals called Icons pursue goals that may preserve an ancient empire that teeters on the brink of chaos, or destroy it. When players create their characters, they decide which Icons their adventurers ally with, and which ones they oppose. These relationships, along with a personal history and a unique trait chosen during character creation, help define an adventurer’s place in the world of 13th Age and lay the groundwork for epic stories that emerge through play.
An early draft of 13th Age is being playtested by more than 200 gaming groups around the world. The game will be published in August 2012 by Pelgrane Press under an Open Game License that will allow other designers to take advantage of its contents to create their own products.
Although they can’t yet share details about 13th Age to others, playtesters have been enthusiastic about it on online message forums. Playtester Adam Dray said, “Tonight, the one player who comes to the game for mostly social reasons said after a test combat, ‘That was fun!’ and engaged with her character in a deeper way than she ever has.”
Another playester, Eric Provost, said simply, "I want to play this until I can't play anymore."
Rob Heinsoo says that the idea for the game grew out of his and Tweet’s experiences playing together in the same Seattle gaming group. “I realized that together, Jonathan and I could make the version of the classic dungeon-crawling fantasy adventure game that we both really wanted to play now. Also, if we found the right publisher, we could entertain other people in the process. We’re very fortunate to be working with Pelgrane Press, which has a history of publishing high-concept, artistically daring games. They're giving us complete freedom as designers to make the game that we've envisioned."
Simon Rogers of Pelgrane Press says, “I’ve been playing roleplaying games now for more than 30 years, and publishing them for nearly a dozen, so it’s an honor and pleasure to be working with these two games design powerhouses and publishing the results of their collaboration.”
The official source for information about the 13th Age roleplaying game on the Web is http://www.pelgranepress.com/site/?p=7649
About Rob Heinsoo
Rob Heinsoo has created dozens of role-playing games, card games, miniatures games and board games. He led the design of the fourth edition of Dungeons & Dragons® and wrote or led the design of many 4e sourcebooks. Rob has just released the critically acclaimed card game Epic Spell Wars of the Battle Wizards: Duel at Mt. Skullzfyre. Other recent game designs include THREE-DRAGON ANTE, THREE-DRAGON ANTE: Emperor's Gambit, Inn-Fighting, Dreamblade, FORGOTTEN REALMS® Campaign Setting, and the first nine sets of D&D Miniatures®. Games he worked on in the 90’s that have aged well include Shadowfist, Feng Shui, and King of Dragon Pass.
About Jonathan Tweet
Jonathan Tweet has been creating games professionally for 25 years. He created or co-created the roleplaying games Ars Magica (1987), Over the Edge (1992), and Everway (1995). He started writing for Dungeons & Dragons in 1992, and in 2000 he became the lead designer of the game's third edition. In addition to roleplaying games, Jonathan has created and contributed to card games, miniatures games, computer games, and fiction. His games have won three Origins Awards, and he is in the Origins Award Hall of Fame.
About Pelgrane Press
Pelgrane Press publishes award-winning tabletop roleplaying games, including Trail of Cthulhu and Night’s Black Agents by Kenneth Hite, The Dying Earth and Ashen Stars by Robin D. Laws. Pelgrane Press is also the home of the webzine Page XX, the Stone Skin Press fiction imprint, The Birds comic and music for RPGs by James Semple and fellow composers.
This upcoming "13th Age" game kind of just popped out of nowhere. I'll keep an eye out for it to see if it's any good but it's starting to get ridiculous with all these versions of D&D.
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This upcoming "13th Age" game kind of just popped out of nowhere. I'll keep an eye out for it to see if it's any good but it's starting to get ridiculous with all these versions of D&D.
Unless they use the OGL, it probably won't be another version of D&D, but just another fantasy RPG (there IS a difference)...
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This upcoming "13th Age" game kind of just popped out of nowhere. I'll keep an eye out for it to see if it's any good but it's starting to get ridiculous with all these versions of D&D.Unless they use the OGL, it probably won't be another version of D&D, but just another fantasy RPG (there IS a difference)...
According to the press release above, it IS being published under the OGL ...
"Our goal with 13th Age is to recapture the free-wheeling style of old-school gaming by creating a game with more soul and fewer technical details"
What does this mean? More importantly, why do RPGs in general feel that there must be a clear distinction between "soul, feel, essence, etc." and "mechanical abilities, technical details, and 'crunch'"? OR, really, why does it seem to be that an RPG can have one, or the other, but heaven forbid, can't have both?
I really hope 13th Age takes off and does really well. Even if it's just to get another game out there for current gamers to enjoy or to bring in new players. While I'm not that familiar with Jonathan Tweet, I am very familiar with Rob Heinsoo and his contribution to 4th Edition. I do hope that some aspects of his design philosophy (as it pertained to 4E) leak into 13th Age in some form or fashion. But with them recapturing the old-school gaming style, I doubt much of it will make it through. I'll keep an eye open and definitly give it a read through at the store, but I don't have high-hopes that the system will be everything I hope for in an RPG.
And while they're on the subject of recapturing the old-school style, where exactly do they think they (the RPG community) left it? I know the first thing people, here espically, want to do is chime in on 4th Edition but really, no. No amount of arguing about the mechanics of 4E, the power-sources of 4E, or the balance of classes will mystically change my mind about what constitutes D&D for me. It's about wizards preparing spells (which 4E has). About Rogues using Sneak Attack with a select and limited weapon-list (which 4E has). It's about clerics who reign down divine power, buff allies, and wade into combat (which 4E has). Or shining paladins who smite their foes with their holy weapon or summon pretty astral ponies (which 4E has). It's also about storyline, immersion of yourself into Character, mingling with NPCs, and general adventuring (which 4E doesn't impare). Sorry if this was a little rant about the current state of RPGs, but I don't think it needs to regain anything. Changes are good, changes can be exciting, and changes can have very strong and positive impacts on the gaming world. But, of course, YMMV.
According to the press release above, it IS being published under the OGL ...Oh, okay, I really didn’t give it that much of an in-depth reading; just kind of skimmed it...
Thanks...
Maybe I'm reading too much into it but it actually says published under an open game license, rather than the.
That might be a function of ignorance of the OGL on the part of the author, of course.
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Even if they do use the OGL it could still be just another fantasy RPG. Legends of Anglerre is FATE based and thus a large part of it is released under the OGL, but despite it actually using some concepts from D&D (Occupations of Fighter, Magic User, Priest, and Rogue) it is another version of D&D at all.
D&DNext is headed into a tempest, with Pathfinder peaking, 4E stil present, OSR growing, and games like this and Dungeon Crawl Classics getting buzz I'm not sure 5E will get the foothold Hasbro expects. Could be trouble ahead.
But perhaps D&D:N will have enough modular power to incorporate not only other-system aspects but provide the same feel but in a more meaningful way? Without any hard evidence of the rules for D&D:N, it's hard to see just which way they're going or how they'll attempt to stay popular AND unify the plebians AND beat out their competition in one row. But they're whole mantra is "modular, modular, and some more modular" so we'll just wait and see.
As DigitalMage says, if it's under OGL, does that mean it's a d20-system and use the mechanics of that?
Hmmm...so 13th age vs DDN... Tweet vs. Cooke.... Well, not really.
What I read is that they put setting first, mechanics second.
An isnt that what Patfinder did and 4e didn't?
I actually think that is a great way to do it.
Settings like Forgotten realms pulled in lots of players to older D&D editions, Golorian with its greyhawk-but-improved feel, and even Call of Chthullu in a wierd way all put feel up front.
Personally, I thought one of 4e's mistakes was not making Ebberron the default setting...the magic item heavy feel of Ebberron would have been an excellent fit for a system where you get magic items ALL the frickin time. Instead they did no real default setting--no matter what they said--and waited till the end for Ebberron.
If DDN wants to succeed, they need to follow Tweet/Hardee's lead and go
FEEL first.
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"Old School" gaming was essentially not much more than "You find an Orc in a 10x10 room guarding a chest."
And the condescending attitude arrives.
News flash, bub. There's "New School" gaming that doesn't consist of much more than that. When you write off everything that the hobby produced before 2000, you don't make yourself look more cultured, you make yourself look like an arrogant snob reeking of condescension and ignorance.
Hmmm. Never liked anything Heinsoo's done, so probably a "meh" for me.
(But the release is just vague and cryptic enough to make me curious.)
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Aehm... not that OGL label has anything in common with the fact that a game is D&D like, or not.
It merely announces whether the license will allow others to freely use the rules. It says nothing about the nature of the rules themselves.
It's quite obvious they are referring to a game that is very similar to D&D.
Some debate above was making it look like OGL = D&D, which I was correcting. "Loveletter to D&D" says what the game wants to be like a bit more accurately :)
I don't think they're ignoring Paizo's success with Pathfinder, but I do feel they're finished with the 3E-stylish game mechanics (well, hopefully anyways) that we currently know them.
D&D:Next has been all talk about "modular" playing, with rules as plug-ins. So imagine a game where Opportuinity Attacks are only included if you deem them necessary but are not "Core" or no longer any 5-ft. step (aka. Shift) unless you want that in your game, but it won't be "Core". Or Fighter techniques/stances or Rogue tricks. I'm betting all of these options won't be in the Core rules so they can facilitate a Basic-style of D&D. Now, if you want them in your game, well they can be added with no fuss but I have this feeling that plug-ins will be supplemental rules, and thus will be purchased separatley.
Of course, not seeing the Playtest or knowing much more than what's already been stated, it's hard to guess at what'll be released when the game comes out. We know from the Devs that there will be options for wizards to take at-will like feats that work like spells (see Reserve Feats of v3.5) so maybe feats are in Core but for me, being required to spend character resources for something I feel they should be getting automatially is sort of a bummer. Again, who knows?
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I don't think they're ignoring Paizo's success with Pathfinder, but I do feel they're finished with the 3E-stylish game mechanics (well, hopefully anyways) that we currently know them.
D&D:Next has been all talk about "modular" playing, with rules as plug-ins. So imagine a game where Opportuinity Attacks are only included if you deem them necessary but are not "Core" or no longer any 5-ft. step (aka. Shift) unless you want that in your game, but it won't be "Core". Or Fighter techniques/stances or Rogue tricks. I'm betting all of these options won't be in the Core rules so they can facilitate a Basic-style of D&D. Now, if you want them in your game, well they can be added with no fuss but I have this feeling that plug-ins will be supplemental rules, and thus will be purchased separatley.
Of course, not seeing the Playtest or knowing much more than what's already been stated, it's hard to guess at what'll be released when the game comes out. We know from the Devs that there will be options for wizards to take at-will like feats that work like spells (see Reserve Feats of v3.5) so maybe feats are in Core but for me, being required to spend character resources for something I feel they should be getting automatially is sort of a bummer. Again, who knows?
Here hoping they can pull it off. Espcially if they can get the modular approach to work. My only worry is that in trying to please everyone they cause more problems then they solve them. Still who knows for sure until we see the actual playtest document.
Because 13th age is practically another altered version of D&D.
But the same thing was said about WotC and 4E and came out to be pretty much true :PHere we go again.
Let's actually see what they can do with 5E before calling the desingers incompetent. The same things were said about Paizo and Pathfinder.
Let's be fair - the system itself works, but they missed target group partially and the fluff sucked. If they produce a serviceable and fun system, then they have my money for core and some modules...
I concur. If I played 4e solely with wotc campaign materials and modules I would be greatly disappointed. Partnering the rules and sourcebook with Paizo APs and modules is a match made in heaven.
That is why this announcement is so interesting to me. It sounds like the 4e innovations being mated to a much better base campaign world.
Actually PF system is pretty good in it's own right. Some 4E fans are complainig about less interesting maps in PF (they want more interactive maps with covers and so on), but the stories are mostly regarded well. WotC is IMO trying to bury the bad reputation they have acquired with 4E and will step up the fluff part of the 5i.
I have played PF for a few years, the system is OK. However my favourite games ever are:
- prince valiant
- burning wheel
- dogs in the vineyard
However most of these games don't lend themselves to extended campaigns. Mostly due to a lack of published source materials.
I find 4e lays much closer to these games than 3e does (and it's slightly tidied up cousin PF). 13th age seems to be following a similar path.
13th Age co-designer Jonathan Tweet is doing a Gamerati Google Hangout with Peter Adkison this Friday evening, if you're interested in hearing more about the game.
He might also talk about being lead designer on 3rd edition D&D, or Ars Magica, or Everway, or anything else Jonathan Tweet-related. You can submit your own questions for Jonathan here.
If you haven't already heard, Rob Heinsoo is running a Kickstarter for 13th Age that ends this week. 13 True Ways will enable him to keep working with Jonathan Tweet and artists Lee Moyer and Aaron McConnell on an expansion book for the game, titled 13 True Ways. You can check it out here: http://bit.ly/13TrueWays
If you back the Kickstarter at $50 and above, you'll be emailed a free PDF of the beta version of 13th Age with no further commitment to continue as a backer -- so if you haven't yet seen 13th Age, this is a great try-before-you-buy opportunity.
The current funding level for the Kickstarter brings a necromancer class into the game. If we hit $50K, Rob will add a "battle captain" class. Yes, it's what you think.
If you back the Kickstarter at $50 and above, you'll be emailed a free PDF of the beta version of 13th Age with no further commitment to continue as a backer -- so if you haven't yet seen 13th Age, this is a great try-before-you-buy opportunity.
Uh...$50 is not a "try before you buy". :)
As for me - I'm good with Pathfinder. Of course, if 13th Age is created under the OGL, and if there are cool bits that can be integrated with Pathfinder, I'm sure some enterprising soul will make a product that does so...
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I'm not sure if I'm getting set in my gaming habits. Or that I like the existing versions of D&D that I have (@e,3.5/pF and 4E). Or that they satisify my current gaming needs. Yet I'm already having trobule trying to find interest in 5E. Cooke and Hseinoo version of D&D just is not appealing to me on any level.
I'm not sure if I'm getting set in my gaming habits. Or that I like the existing versions of D&D that I have (@e,3.5/pF and 4E). Or that they satisify my current gaming needs. Yet I'm already having trobule trying to find interest in 5E. Cooke and Hseinoo version of D&D just is not appealing to me on any level.
I'm in a similar boat. What I like about 4E is that it's different from the other versions around. I have 4E/PF for when I want complication and Swords and Wizardry for when I can play the simple way I prefer. I dont really have much use for another back-to-basics game. Nor another "bells-and-whistles" edition.
If you back the Kickstarter at $50 and above, you'll be emailed a free PDF of the beta version of 13th Age with no further commitment to continue as a backer -- so if you haven't yet seen 13th Age, this is a great try-before-you-buy opportunity.
Uh...$50 is not a "try before you buy". :)
As for me - I'm good with Pathfinder. Of course, if 13th Age is created under the OGL, and if there are cool bits that can be integrated with Pathfinder, I'm sure some enterprising soul will make a product that does so...
To clarify on the try-before-you-buy as it's a little confusing at first I think, especially for those that haven't done a Kickstarter before. Just like any Kickstarter, you've got the option to remove support before the timer runs out.
So for this one, you go into Kickstarter and offer up $50 in support. They then send you a link to the file so you can see how the game looks. If you don't like what you see, you go back into Kickstarter (before their time runs out) and remove your support.
On the game itself, I was also hesitant as I don't need yet another system. However, there offer to check things out was easy enough. After reading through the material, I think it's definitely worth adding to my library. It's somewhat a combination of 3E and 4E (which had me worried) but not in such a way that it's bad.
Anyway, if the clarification helps out and it's something of interest, I say it's worth your effort.
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I'm in a similar boat. What I like about 4E is that it's different from the other versions around. I have 4E/PF for when I want complication and Swords and Wizardry for when I can play the simple way I prefer. I dont really have much use for another back-to-basics game. Nor another "bells-and-whistles" edition.
And that is imo not a good thing. When you have two players who have bought all the editions of D&D up to 4E and not being interested in a newer edition let alone someone else take on a new edtion well it's not a good sign. I'm sure you and I are not the only gamers feeling the same way. Same thing with other newer rpgs. Just feels like more of the same with a new ruleset. Beyond a few rpgs that present something new it's usally along the lines of "New fantasy rpg xyz has a healing class, a thief class, a magic class and of course a melee class" with new rules bit offers nothing new. Maybe we are just getting old imo.
If you back the Kickstarter at $50 and above, you'll be emailed a free PDF of the beta version of 13th Age with no further commitment to continue as a backer -- so if you haven't yet seen 13th Age, this is a great try-before-you-buy opportunity.
Uh...$50 is not a "try before you buy". :)
As for me - I'm good with Pathfinder. Of course, if 13th Age is created under the OGL, and if there are cool bits that can be integrated with Pathfinder, I'm sure some enterprising soul will make a product that does so...
To clarify on the try-before-you-buy as it's a little confusing at first I think, especially for those that haven't done a Kickstarter before. Just like any Kickstarter, you've got the option to remove support before the timer runs out.
So for this one, you go into Kickstarter and offer up $50 in support. They then send you a link to the file so you can see how the game looks. If you don't like what you see, you go back into Kickstarter (before their time runs out) and remove your support.
On the game itself, I was also hesitant as I don't need yet another system. However, there offer to check things out was easy enough. After reading through the material, I think it's definitely worth adding to my library. It's somewhat a combination of 3E and 4E (which had me worried) but not in such a way that it's bad.
Anyway, if the clarification helps out and it's something of interest, I say it's worth your effort.
Thanks for clarifying (I for one certainly misunderstood what you meant initially).
That is a pretty good deal.
Dot.
Just had a look at the 13th age beta, thanks to a friend having pre-ordered 13 true ways, and 13th age.
My gut feeling upon a quick read is that I have finally found a high fantasy roleplaying game which I love as much as WFRP. I suspect that once we finish our current 4e game, we will be moving to play 13th age.
- Really unique classes, with each one being very different in the way it plays.
- lots of narrativist elements and indie design ( you don't have skills, you have background points, so if you should logically be able to move unnoticed through city crowds because your member of the grey cloak brother hood of theives, you roll that background and add dex, if greycloaks' are known to be enemies of the rich and friends to the poor you could use your background to intimidate rich people, or get aid in a working class district, but not necciesarially the other way around.)
-one unique thing means that yes, you can be the head of the most successful spy network in the world, or the only halfling knight in the world. One thing you say about your character, is true within the game world.
- an alignment system that actually functions, in which your connection to, and relationship, with specific powerful figures is what matters, allowing you to shape the flow of narrative thanks to your connection to individuals such as the emperor.
All around it is the most interesting game I have seen in ages, cant wait to get stuck in
Not really what I was looking for - I was hoping for something that was more akin to a 4E continuation type game. Essentially a 4E version of Pathfinder (in the sense that Pathfinder is a continuation of 3.5) and this is not really that.
I like Tweet and I like Pelgrane. This could be fun to watch.
Darn son, you just read my mind when you said that.
So -- any word on when the actual product would be in stores? I once saw an expected release date of this month, but that clearly is not happening unless the book is already out and my FLGS failed to call me about it.
I think it's close to being actually released. I've played 3 sessions of the game now and I think this is probably my preferred fantasy D&D-esque game now.
The game is slated to be in stores by February or March -- there were some issues with layout, so Pelgrane brought Chris Huth (Night's Black Agents) in to take over.
If you're interested in hearing one of the designers demo 13th Age for a group that's new to the game, all this week BJ Shea's Geek Nation is posting daily actual play recordings from a session that Rob Heinsoo ran for them. The first two episodes are character generation, and the third -- posted today -- starts the adventure, which Rob improvised based on the backgrounds, icon relationships and uniques chosen by the players.