Whip Focused Indy Type Build

[Worldbuilder]

Alright, having problems finishing this build and finding out if it will be effective.

I am joining an ongoing Serpent Skull Campaign. I am coming in at level 6, so have a little room to start with. After reading the players handbook I thought and Indiana Jones type build seemed pretty cool. It's a 20 point buy.

Human(Usually not my first choice if possible but fits the bill)
Lore Warden - 3 - 2 feats, the much needed combat expertise, +2 CMB which is needed because of my level dips.

Archaeologist Bard is my first choice here, but that means not only can I not dump Charisma, but I need to raise it, and this build already it Ability point heavy- which has lead me to highly consider Rogue.

Prestige Class - I'm considering Pathfinder Delver to finish it off. Problem I'm seeing is

1) Can I contribute at all in combat if fighting something Larger than large?? How so?
2) No Dump Stat- so can't really be good at any combat role. Will fill skill monkey fine which is the plan, but I want to do something in combat.

Any ideas or suggestions are appreciated. Thanks.

[james maissen]

Worldbuilder wrote:

Alright, having problems finishing this build and finding out if it will be effective.

Any ideas or suggestions are appreciated. Thanks.

Try and figure out what you feel that you need. Rate combat against other things to decide.

One level 6 build you could have with the whip would be (I made it with 1/2 orc, but you could do human with the bonus feat being ewp whip).

Fighter -Lore warden3/Magus -Hexcrafter3:

STR 20 (17+2racial+1bump)
INT 14
WIS 07
DEX 14
CON 14
CHA 07

Racial: alternate to get whip (& net).
Trait: +1 nonlethal with slashing, no penalty on slashing for nonlethal (forget the name of it)
Feats: WF: Whip(F1), Enforcer, Combat Expertise(B), Improved Trip(F2), Whip Mastery, +STR to intimidate feat (forget the name)

Magus Arcana: Wand wielder.

This is a combat focused build that will be awesome at tripping. At 7th pick up greater trip, 8th better whip mastery, and 9th Combat Reflexes. Pick up Evil eye and flight hexes (one at 6th for an arcana). At 12th (9th magus) you can pick up full trip (as it will be a +3 for that level).

Your skills are almost completely free here to choose as you wish (beyond needing 6 INT skills via lore warden, and wanting to max intimidate) so you could do a bunch of knowledge and athletic type skills there.

You wouldn't have the Harrison Ford charm, but you would have someone reckless but powerful.

Mind you this wasn't written to make 'Indy' but rather a whip wielder that could do a decent amount of control.

-James

[Saliger The Greatest]

I forgot to mention, the party has no rogue, and the DM has said this is a pretty trap intensive campaign and that Disable Device is very useful, so I was trying to find a way to fill that role too. She said its fine if I don't, but I kind of feel like I should.

I don't necessarily need to be the best in combat, but I don't want to be the gimp either. Last rogue I played only had one combat feat(weapon finesse), but thanks to sneak attack was still effective in combat, but my outside of combat utility was the best, and I saved the party a few times in out of combat situations, 2 of which would have been TPKs. Trying to do the same kind of thing here but with a whip build.

[Saliger The Greatest]

Hmm, I'm looking at the halfling opportunist now too. The capstone seems to be money, and its actually one of the better PRC's, plus looks like fun.

[Deyvantius]

Capstones on level 20 builds are jokes. Who cares about lvl 20. LEt me rephrase that a bit...

VERY FEW campaigns are played to 20 and even then, only a few of them allow you to play more than 1-2 sessions at 20.

[Glutton]

Archeologist / lore warden will be fine, you might even want to take a look at pathfinder delver. 16 dex 14 charisma 13 int is about all you "need" to be effective, remember you don't need a lot of of the "improved" combat maneuver feats because of the whips 15ft range, you're out of the AoO range of most things. Weapon finesse applies to maneuvers done with the whip, pick up whip mastery line, serpent lash line, and the improved reposition line, and the party fighters will have a riot.

I'm currently DM'ing this module, and the skills a bard and lore warden get are fantastic for this, honestly not a lot of magical traps so far, don't know what your dm is talking about.

I would go lore warden 3 / archy 6, and take it from there, see where you are at.

[Beebs]

Just a thought if you did want to go straight Archaeologist:

Half-elf Archaeologist (Bard) 6
Consider using your half-elf alternate racial ability to give yourself more rounds of Luck, because unlike normal bardic music, you're stuck with 4+cha.

Stats:

Str: 18 (15 + 2 race + 1 level)
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 13
Wis: 8
Cha: 14

Feats:
1 - Combat Expertise
Half-elf: Skill Focus: Perception
3 - Improved Trip
5 - Lingering Performance

Offense:
(including the +4hit/+2damage with Heroism and Archaeologists Luck active. You have like 1 million rounds of luck with the extra performance rounds from half-elf + lingering performance.)
Trip (masterwork whip): +15
+1 Longspear: +13 (d8+9, x2)

Rogue Talent: Trap Spotter

Perception: +16 (6 ranks + 3 class - 1 wis + 2 half-elf + 3 feat + 3 clever explorer)
Disable Device: +15 (6 ranks + 3 class +1 dex + 3 clever explorer + 2 masterwork tools)

Defensively, you're fragile, so try and use the reach weapons to stay out of trouble and cast Mirror Image if you have to get up close and personal. With a little work, you could probably up your defenses.

[Worldbuilder]

Deyvantius wrote:

Capstones on level 20 builds are jokes. Who cares about lvl 20. LEt me rephrase that a bit...

VERY FEW campaigns are played to 20 and even then, only a few of them allow you to play more than 1-2 sessions at 20.

The Halfling Opportunist is a 5 level prestige, so I would have the capstone from 10 on. It gives sneak attack damage on all attacks of opportunity, I was considering with a 15ft reach weapon that could be a lot of sneak attack damage over time.

I do like the straight archaeologist build, but it seems like I get so much mileage out of three levels of Lore Warden. If i went half-elf I get two favored bonuses too!

[Worldbuilder]

Glutton wrote:

Archeologist / lore warden will be fine, you might even want to take a look at pathfinder delver. 16 dex 14 charisma 13 int is about all you "need" to be effective, remember you don't need a lot of of the "improved" combat maneuver feats because of the whips 15ft range, you're out of the AoO range of most things. Weapon finesse applies to maneuvers done with the whip, pick up whip mastery line, serpent lash line, and the improved reposition line, and the party fighters will have a riot.

I'm currently DM'ing this module, and the skills a bard and lore warden get are fantastic for this, honestly not a lot of magical traps so far, don't know what your dm is talking about.

I would go lore warden 3 / archy 6, and take it from there, see where you are at.

Seems like good advice. Hmm, your saying 16 Dex is sufficient at level 6?? That would free up a lot of points to make a more balanced build.

[kaisc006]

Worldbuilder wrote:

[

The Halfling Opportunist is a 5 level prestige, so I would have the capstone from 10 on. It gives sneak attack damage on all attacks of opportunity, I was considering with a 15ft reach weapon that could be a lot of sneak attack damage over time.

As per RAW: "The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15 ft. reach, though you don't threaten the area into which you can make an attack."

So you don't get AoO with a whip.

[Mergy]

Full lore warden fighter with a trait that makes disable device a class skill would take care of most traps, and have enough skill points to be able to fill it with a 13 intellect.

I would go Str 18, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 8

Half-Orc fighter (lore warden)

Alternate Racial Trait: Beastmaster

Traits: Vagabond Child, and one other

At fourth you increase the Int to 14 and you finish off with six skills per level, two of which have to be intelligence-based.

You'll have a fine CMB for both whipping and grappling, and you'll have more than enough feats to use several different manoeuvres.

[Worldbuilder]

kaisc006 wrote:

Worldbuilder wrote:

[

The Halfling Opportunist is a 5 level prestige, so I would have the capstone from 10 on. It gives sneak attack damage on all attacks of opportunity, I was considering with a 15ft reach weapon that could be a lot of sneak attack damage over time.

As per RAW: "The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15 ft. reach, though you don't threaten the area into which you can make an attack."

So you don't get AoO with a whip.

Sorry Improved Whip Mastery is needed - but it only allows you to threaten out to 10 ft, so not as good as I initially thought. Still not horrible though, since you get an AOO each round.

[Diabhol]

Beebs wrote:

Just a thought if you did want to go straight Archaeologist:

I think this is probably the best bet, honestly. Single-class Bard that focuses on Strength and Charisma.

[Mergy]

It depends on what you want to focus on. Fighter will be able to use the whip much better, but bard will have far more variety.

[Diabhol]

Mergy wrote:

It depends on what you want to focus on. Fighter will be able to use the whip much better, but bard will have far more variety.

Oh, I agree; I recommend Fighters for everything. :)

But the OP said he wanted to be a skillmonkey, too. *shrug*

[Mergy]

There's no reason a lore warden can't be at least part skill-monkey. If you're grabbing 13 intelligence for the Improved ______ feats, you might as well make it a 14, or at least bump it up at some point. As a human that's 7 skills per level; if you want to grab the whip go half-orc and still have a comfy 6 per level.

Here's my attempt. I made it in about 20 minutes, so it's possible I made a few mistakes:

Whippy Wallace:

Half-Orc fighter 6 (lore warden)
N Medium humanoid (human, orc)
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +7

DEFENCE

AC 20, touch 12, flat-footed 18 (armour +6, Dex +2, shield +2)
HP 49 (6d10+12)
Fort +7, Ref +5, Will +5

OFFENCE

Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 whip +14/+9 (1d3+7) or mwk lucerne hammer +12/+7 (1d12+7) or mwk spiked gauntlet +12/+7 (1d4+5)
Ranged mwk composite longbow +9/+4 (1d8+5/x3)

STATISTICS

Str 20, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +6, CMB +13 (+17 for tripping); CMD 25 (29 versus tripping)
Feats Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Greater Trip, Improved Trip, Improved Whip Mastery, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Whip), Whip Mastery
Skills Acrobatics +7, Climb +7, Disable Device +11 (+13 with mwk tools), Handle Animal +5, Intimidate +5, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +11, Knowledge (Religion) +11, Linguistics +6, Perception +7, Ride +5, Swim +7; AC penalty -1
Traits Indomitable Faith, Vagabond Child
Languages Abyssal, Common, Draconic, Giant, Orc
SQ beastmaster, manoeuvre mastery, scholastic, weapon training (flails) +1
Combat Gear potion of cure moderate wounds, potion of enlarge person (2), potion of fly; Other Gear +1 whip, masterwork composite bow (Str 20) and 40 arrows, masterwork lucerne hammer, masterwork spiked gauntlet, +1 buckler, +2 chain shirt, +1 cloak of resistance, belt of giant's strength +2, masterwork backpack, masterwork thieves' tools, 472gp worth of other stuff

1 Power Attack, Cleave
2 Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
3 Weapon Focus (Whip)
4 Whip Mastery, trade Cleave for Combat Reflexes
5 Improved Whip Mastery
6 Greater Trip

16,000gp

4,000gp belt of giant's strength +2
1,000gp cloak of resistance +1
4,250gp +2 chain shirt
1,155gp +1 buckler
2,301gp +1 whip
800gp mwk composite longbow (Str 20)
2gp 40 arrows
315gp mwk lucerne hammer
305gp mwk spiked gauntlet
50gp masterwork backpack
100gp masterwork thieves' tools
100gp potion of enlarge person (2)
300gp potion of cure moderate wounds
750gp potion of fly

15,528gp spent, 472gp left for incidentals

[Worldbuilder]

Yea, I've been considering this more. What about a one level drop in PF Delver?? Gives me +1 Perception, Disable Device and all knowledge skills, plus I can make knowledge checks untrained, gain back a trait, +6 Skill Points and it lets me disable magical traps.

I in turn loose one level of class features and BAB, which I know is a significant hit optimization wise, but is it a giant hit enough hit overall? That kind of gives me everything I want with minimum power loss, and a few minor out of combat gains.

[Mergy]

If you want to be able to disable magical traps (and I would say just ask the wizard to kindly cast dispel magic instead), go bardchaeologist. You'll be worse off at the manoeuvres, and it will take you awhile to pull off the Whip Mastery line, but you'll have spells and better trap-busting abilities than a rogue.

[Diabhol]

Mergy wrote:

If you want to be able to disable magical traps (and I would say just ask the wizard to kindly cast dispel magic instead), go bardchaeologist. You'll be worse off at the manoeuvres, and it will take you awhile to pull off the Whip Mastery line, but you'll have spells and better trap-busting abilities than a rogue.

I gotta agree.

Or, as the kids say, "+1"

[MacGurcules]

For any Indiana Jones-like character, this is a required trait, of course.

[Mergy]

MacGurcules wrote:

For any Indiana Jones-like character, this is a required trait, of course.

That trait shouldn't even be a trait. That should just be a thing you can do with a whip. If that trait didn't exist, any GM who has seen Indiana Jones would let a player do that.

Anyway, an archaeologist: (Once again, it was a rush job, so please excuse mistakes!)

Archie the Archaeologist:

Human bard 6 (archaeologist)
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +4; Senses Perception +13

DEFENCE

AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16 (armour +5, Dex +2, shield +1); +2 versus traps
Hp 42 (6d8+12)
Fort +4, Ref +8 (+10 versus traps), Will +6
Defensive Abilities evasion, trap sense, uncanny dodge

OFFENCE

Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 whip +10 (1d3+5) or mwk longsword +9 (1d8+4/19-20)
Ranged mwk composite shortbow +7 (1d6+4/x3)
Special Attacks arcane strike +2, archaeologist's luck 7 rounds/day (+2, lasts two rounds after canceling)
Spells Known (CL 6th, touch +8, ranged touch +6, concentration +9):
2nd (4/day) - delay poison, glitterdust (DC 15), heroism, invisibility
1st (5/day) - comprehend languages, expeditious retreat, feather fall, grease, timely inspiration
0 - detect magic, mage hand, mending, message, open/close, prestidigitation

STATISTICS

Str 18, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 16
Base Atk +4; CMB +8; CMD 20
Feats Arcane Strike, Lingering Performance, Weapon Focus (Whip), Whip Mastery
Skills Acrobatics +10, Bluff +7, Climb +7, Diplomacy +7, Disable Device +14 (+16 with mwk tools), Knowledge (Arcana) +9, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +14, Knowledge (History) +14, Knowledge (Local) +9, Knowledge (Religion) +14, Perception +13, Spellcraft +11, Use Magic Device +12; AC penalty -1
Traits Reactionary, Vagabond Child
Languages Common, Draconic, Osiriani
SQ bardic knowledge +3, clever explorer, lore master, rogue talents (trap spotter)
Combat Gear potion of cure moderate wounds, wand of cure light wounds; Other Gear +1 whip, masterwork longsword, masterwork composite shortbow (Str 18) and 40 arrows, +1 chain shirt, masterwork buckler, belt of giant's strength +2, cloak of resistance +1, headband of alluring charisma +2, masterwork backpack, wayfinder, 602 gp for incidentals

16,000gp

4,000gp belt of giant's strength +2
4,000gp headband of alluring charisma +2
1,000gp cloak of resistance +1
1,250gp +1 chain shirt
155gp mwk buckler
2,301gp +1 whip
675gp mwk composite shortbow (Str 18)
2gp 40 arrows
750gp wand of cure light wounds
315gp mwk longsword
50gp mwk backpack
500gp wayfinder
300gp potion of cure moderate wounds
100gp mwk thieves' tools

15,398gp spent, 602gp remain

1 Arcane Strike, Lingering Performance
2
3 Weapon Focus (Whip)
4
5 Whip Mastery
6

[MacGurcules]

Mergy wrote:

That trait shouldn't even be a trait. That should just be a thing you can do with a whip. If that trait didn't exist, any GM who has seen Indiana Jones would let a player do that.

Agreed. It does seem like a rather silly thing to attribute to your background, as traits usually are. I have a feeling that it's that way because it's not good enough for a feat, but it wasn't something they wanted to build into whips in general. Regardless, it's definitely a very Indy thing and any Indy-style character should be able to do it somehow.

[arioreo]

Worldbuilder wrote:

kaisc006 wrote:

Worldbuilder wrote:

[

The Halfling Opportunist is a 5 level prestige, so I would have the capstone from 10 on. It gives sneak attack damage on all attacks of opportunity, I was considering with a 15ft reach weapon that could be a lot of sneak attack damage over time.

As per RAW: "The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15 ft. reach, though you don't threaten the area into which you can make an attack."

So you don't get AoO with a whip.

Sorry Improved Whip Mastery is needed - but it only allows you to threaten out to 10 ft, so not as good as I initially thought. Still not horrible though, since you get an AOO each round.

But doesn't a whip only do damage against monsters wearing leather armour and/or having natural armour of 1 or less?

Don't think there are many monsters that apply at level 6.

[Mergy]

arioreo wrote:

Worldbuilder wrote:

kaisc006 wrote:

Worldbuilder wrote:

[

The Halfling Opportunist is a 5 level prestige, so I would have the capstone from 10 on. It gives sneak attack damage on all attacks of opportunity, I was considering with a 15ft reach weapon that could be a lot of sneak attack damage over time.

As per RAW: "The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15 ft. reach, though you don't threaten the area into which you can make an attack."

So you don't get AoO with a whip.

Sorry Improved Whip Mastery is needed - but it only allows you to threaten out to 10 ft, so not as good as I initially thought. Still not horrible though, since you get an AOO each round.

But doesn't a whip only do damage against monsters wearing leather armour and/or having natural armour of 1 or less?

Don't think there are many monsters that apply at level 6.

And that's what Whip Mastery takes care of.

[galahad2112]

Couldn't you just use a scorpion whip?

While I do agree that the lore warden gets you a lot of mileage, unless you're going for the trip master build, it isn't really worth it. Of course, at lore warden 4, a character can have whirlwind attack and trip everyone within 15 feet (30 with enlarge), so....yeah.

[james maissen]

Mergy wrote:

If you want to be able to disable magical traps (and I would say just ask the wizard to kindly cast dispel magic instead), go bardchaeologist. You'll be worse off at the manoeuvres, and it will take you awhile to pull off the Whip Mastery line, but you'll have spells and better trap-busting abilities than a rogue.

If you want to be more combat focused with the whip AND disable traps, then take a level (or two) of ranger (trapper). It will also increase your REF saves, pick up a few more class skills and skill points.

A wizard casting dispel magic is a HORRIBLE way to handle traps. You're going against caster level there which will be WAY higher than you can handle.

-James

[Mergy]

james maissen wrote:

Mergy wrote:

If you want to be able to disable magical traps (and I would say just ask the wizard to kindly cast dispel magic instead), go bardchaeologist. You'll be worse off at the manoeuvres, and it will take you awhile to pull off the Whip Mastery line, but you'll have spells and better trap-busting abilities than a rogue.

If you want to be more combat focused with the whip AND disable traps, then take a level (or two) of ranger (trapper). It will also increase your REF saves, pick up a few more class skills and skill points.

A wizard casting dispel magic is a HORRIBLE way to handle traps. You're going against caster level there which will be WAY higher than you can handle.

-James

Not necessarily, but if that is the case, then use summon monster instead.