while i agree that [deleted] is very antagonistic in his postings at times, directly calling someone out is not ok on these boards.
^ this post will most likly get taken down, or worse cause the thread to get locked if it causes progression towards a flame fest.
lets keep is civil and not directly attack people, and while we're at it keep the thread on topic.
I don't agree with you 100% - certainly there's been a lot of posts on this thread far more antagonistic that quoting individuals and saying that they're intentionally aggro-ing people (and I don't think you could argue in the case I quoted). That having been said that section of the comment didn't really add to the overall discussion and I'll defer to your good judgement.
I agree there's been some -hostility- displayed by both sides in this. I've seen worse, though. This thread has seemed to me to be remarkably civil, given the intensity of folks reactions.
Now to my contribution (hpoefully a civil one): This tread has confusred me from the start. I never even thought there might be an issue with a crafter charging anything extra for crafting. That people feel so strongly against the very concept still stuns me.
I have, however, been trying to understand the reasoning behind the 'no fee' attitude.
I find myself believing that the whole subject has to do, deep down, with the concept of 'winning'. Several 'no fee' folks have said that the 'fee crafter' is somehow ahead of the rest of the group by charging a fee, even when the math seems to show the opposite. The claim is also made that the 'fee crafter' must think they're somehow better than the rest of the group.
I...don't care. In game or in real life. So what if Carla Crafter (in game) or Carl Co-worker (in the next cubicle) have more shinys than me? If either one offers to help me get custom shinys for a small 'finder's fee' I have the choice to accept or to try to get that shiny on my own. But, to me, neither Carla or Carl owes me shinys at a loss to them just because we work together.
And that may be the base point. Fee crafters see a loss they want to redress, free crafters don't. Who's right? Probably both and neither. this debate will not be resolved even if we get to 20,000 posts rather than 2,000.
The most I'm hoping for, and what does seem to be happening to some of us, is to better understnd the other side. I think I do understand a little better, now.
I may still post though, I seem to have a low will save, too.
But at least I've stopped posting while gritting my teeth!
I'll assume your math is correct. (I've failed more math classes than I've passed- literally lol)
My issue isn't really with WBL. or whether or not you follow X rule or Y rule or whatever someone thinks about SKR's ruling.
** spoiler omitted **
I understand thats just my preference rather than "a rule". but preference is really what this thread is about ;)-S
@Selgard - I totally agree. WBL doesn't figure into our games prominently although the players try to be mindful of balance as a courtesy to the GM.
Analysis of rule systems gives me a raging brainer and in that respect my professional life tends to bleed into my private life. But at the table personal relationships (in and out of character) take center stage. In...
Resolve:
You have 4 LG people in the group. The new guy comes in and makes a CE psychopath.You ask him to make something else. He refuses, saying he has the right to play any ole character he wants to.
Do your LG people hang out with the evil guy, one htey find out he's evil?
Do they try to kill him?
leave him behind?
talk to the Player about it some more?
I mean eventually you have to do SOmething- either cave in completely (the 4 guys give up playing good guys since the one wanting an evil PC refuses to cooperate?).
To me- there is no "one way" to play but if you are with a group you need to be with the group. to some extent that does require you deciding to do as they request. Otherwise you are just coming in sitting down saying "do what I want".
I prefer to game with folks who like to play the same way I do.
if someone came in *as a problem* causing problems I do think we have the right to ask them to conform or go home.
Does this mean every issue has to be that way? No- but quite frankly to me this is one of them.
The DM and the Group sets the parameters for that group. Then everyone in the group follows them.
No one has the right to say "screw you I'm doing it my way". And if they do it anyway- the group has the right to force the issue.
Now of course- we may very well differ on if this is something worth doing that for.
To me, it is, because it speaks to an underlying issue in the game: cooperation. If you aren't willing to cooperate with the group, they need to leave you behind. (in character).
It may not be to you- and thats perfectly fine. I'd be really curious what one of the 20 or 40$'ers would say to someone coming in and crafting for free for everyone else- watching as their cash cow suddenly went dry.
RAW is very disturbing in the fact that by raw the PC's are the only way a crafter has to make money from his crafts, (that or taking one of your two traits for 5%).
To me personally- its also disturbing the folks who think that this makes it perfectly ok to make said profit from the other PC's.
Not because of WBL math and Dm's unwilling to handle WBL themselves- but just out of pure mercenary greed.
The pure "I can charge you 20% and you can't stop me" is why I would be willing to have the character left behind in the tavern.
It breeds inherent distrust in someone when they are willing to do that to folks going in to watch each other's backs.
This is no exaggeration: My characters literally couldn't trust that person at watch, or to hold the McGuffin or to be the one holding or tracking the loot before it was sold or split, or to take the loot to be sold before the split, and everything. Someone that inherently greedy would just have no place in the groups I run with, typically.
The issue has *literally* not even been raised (in my current group). The wizard wasn't like "hey guys should I charge X%? " and we said no. it just didn't come up. he chose the feat, he made stuff for himself, he decided to craft for us too.. we're all grateful and he gets his share of the loot we find.
I suspect if I came and sat at some of yuor "pro 20%" tables and made a raving romping ass out of myself and had a wall-eyed hissy fit about not having to pay 20% that I'd maybe get one talking to before being shown the door. Maybe not even the one. I don't get to come into your group and insist that things work the way I want them to work.
I can ask to discuss it. We can have a nice normal conversation about it- much like we are doing now.
But at the end of the day, if the group said "well guy, thanks for the convo but we really think x% is fine" then I imagine it'd be a real jerk move for me to make a "freebie" crafter to compete with the guy in group already doing it. It'd be breaking the "don't be a jerk" rule, just like the "charge" guy coming into my group and acting that way would be.
It still comes down to one person's opinion vs anothers.. but sometimes the opinion of the group has to be enforced- otherwise they risk having someone come in and dictate their own terms. That doesn't work.
-S
To me, it would appear that you have said that crafters have to craft for another party member.I hate to say "I speak for AD here" but I think he and I are on the same page here:
Its not really an issue of "you have to craft for me" or john or jim.
its an issue of:
"I'm going to charge 20% for my crafting"
*group confers*
"You are already getting paid for your contribution. We'd rather you not do that"
"screw you I'll craft for myself only and if you want anyting from me its 20% or not at all, sorry guys, I play my PC how I want to"Its a "do you do what you want" or "do you do as the group asks" issue.
For some of you, you think its prefectly acceptable to just tell the group to screw off, you'll do what you want.Others don't find that acceptable.
To me: its like trying to be evil when the group has alrready said they want everyone to be good- or trying to be a paladin when the group is predominantly evil.
Some decisions are group decisions, and people should form their characters around that.
I may be a bit slow tonight, but how is what you said any different from "To me, it would appear that you have said that crafters have to craft for another party member"?
Also, how is that not telling a player how to play their character? Especially if they are willing to abide by the group's no charging for crafting, but simply do not craft for anyone but themselves?
It would be easy to say that if there was any extra downtime that they were researching new spells and/or the next McGuffin (hey, they may even get new spells out of it!)
I can understand that some groups will put certain criteria on the game and I have no concerns over high level ones like the alignment ones you mentioned.
But I object when the group tries to dictate how a PC is to be played to the player who's PC it is. Once that starts, where does it stop? The group decides that the fighter's next feat will be Iron Will because it will reduce the number of times that they are dominated - so it is good for the group, it will make it stronger, so fighter, suck it up and take the feat.
At one point, someone in the free crafter crowd was saying that crafting time is trivial, that with a ring of sustenance, the crafter has plenty of time to craft, even on the road - and that the crafter should have maxed ranks in spellcraft to speed craft. So, not only was the crater being told to craft for free, part of their skill choices were being made for them and they were being told to spend 1250 gold to make a ring (or 2500 if they didn't have Forge Ring) -which also dictates to the crafter one of the two ring slots that they "have" to use.
When I have played a crafter, I have more than once crafted for free, but other times I have charged up to full price because the other PC annoyed my PC. But if/when I take the feats, it is should be my crafter's decision on how much get's charged. If the other PCs in the group don't like it, why don't they take crafting feats, rather than try to force my crafter to craft for them?
I agree there's been some -hostility- displayed by both sides in this. I've seen worse, though. This thread has seemed to me to be remarkably civil, given the intensity of folks reactions.
Now to my contribution (hpoefully a civil one): This tread has confusred me from the start. I never even thought there might be an issue with a crafter charging anything extra for crafting. That people feel so strongly against the very concept still stuns me.
I have, however, been trying to understand the reasoning behind the 'no fee' attitude.
I find myself believing that the whole subject has to do, deep down, with the concept of 'winning'. Several 'no fee' folks have said that the 'fee crafter' is somehow ahead of the rest of the group by charging a fee, even when the math seems to show the opposite. The claim is also made that the 'fee crafter' must think they're somehow better than the rest of the group.
I...don't care. In game or in real life. So what if Carla Crafter (in game) or Carl Co-worker (in the next cubicle) have more shinys than me? If either one offers to help me get custom shinys for a small 'finder's fee' I have the choice to accept or to try to get that shiny on my own. But, to me, neither Carla or Carl owes me shinys at a loss to them just because we work together.
And that may be the base point. Fee crafters see a loss they want to redress, free crafters don't. Who's right? Probably both and neither. this debate will not be resolved even if we get to 20,000 posts rather than 2,000.
The most I'm hoping for, and what does seem to be happening to some of us, is to better understnd the other side. I think I do understand a little better, now.
I may still post though, I seem to have a low will save, too.
But at least I've stopped posting while gritting my teeth!
For myself:
I don't really care how many shinies the guy next to me has.But if he and I go into a project together and we work together on it and do all our work on it- I do expect to get joint credit. Not 1/3 or 1/4 but 50/50 split.
The guys arguing for a fee (not the WBL guys, but the other ones) just because they took a feat, are the guys who are really doing a joint project but asking for an unfair split of the reward.
I know they disagree with me- but thats really my opinion.
You take X feat instead of Y feat, and you think that entitles you to more % of the loot. I disagree. You choosing any feat and using it doesn't entitle you to more of the loot than you already receive.
Now the 'take a fee' crowd takes the stance that they are alreayd contributing to the combats and such, and that the crafting gets a fee because its somehow extra. I just disagree with that notion.
Thats really the key revolving issue here:
does taking a crafting feat net you more than you'd receive from the group, in relation to taking any other feat. Some say yes because its "outside" the normal stuff, others (like me) say no because you are expected to use any feat or ability you require on behalf of the group so no extra fee is warranted.
-S
Now to my contribution (hpoefully a civil one): This tread has confusred me from the start. I never even thought there might be an issue with a crafter charging anything extra for crafting.
I admit I have always thought it is strange that people would charge their teammates a higher premium than they can get for crafting for NPCs.
To me, it would appear that you have said that crafters have to craft for another party member.I hate to say "I speak for AD here" but I think he and I are on the same page here:
Its not really an issue of "you have to craft for me" or john or jim.
its an issue of:
"I'm going to charge 20% for my crafting"
*group confers*
"You are already getting paid for your contribution. We'd rather you not do that"
"screw you I'll craft for myself only and if you want anyting from me its 20% or not at all, sorry guys, I play my PC how I want to"Its a "do you do what you want" or "do you do as the group asks" issue.
For some of you, you think its prefectly acceptable to just tell the group to screw off, you'll do what you want.Others don't find that acceptable.
To me: its like trying to be evil when the group has alrready said they want everyone to be good- or trying to be a paladin when the group is predominantly evil.
Some decisions are group decisions, and people should form their characters around that.
I may be a bit slow tonight, but how is what you said any different from "To me, it would appear that you have said that crafters have to craft for another party member"?
Also, how is that not telling a player how to play their character? Especially if they are willing to abide by the group's no charging for crafting, but simply do not craft for anyone but themselves?
It would be easy to say that if there was any extra downtime that they were researching new spells and/or the next McGuffin (hey, they may even get new spells out of it!)
I can understand that some groups will put certain criteria on the game and I have no concerns over high level ones like the alignment ones you mentioned.
But I object when the group tries to dictate how a PC is to be played to the player who's PC it is. Once that starts, where does it stop? The group decides that the fighter's next feat will be Iron Will because it will reduce the number...
Because being selfish doesn't really mesh with the general goals of the party, primarily.
Of course, that can change from party to party. But being out for yourself first last and only doesn't really leave much reason for the party to include you.I mean it sounds so simple to say he has the option to just craft for himself but its not how it goes down.
Crafter:"Hey guys I want to charge 20% for my crafting, I feel thats a reasonable fee given that its still 30% off FMV".
party: "uhh *confers amongst self, and has the whole discussion civilly including with crafter and such*
Party: "we're really not comfortable with that. we feel that everyone is already getting paid for their work via the shared loot"
crafter: "oh.. well.. if I'm not getting paid for it, i'm not crafting for any of you. You can pay my 20%, or i'll just.. well.. use the feat for my personal benefit, sorry"
The guy is *still* not going along with the wishes of the group. He's telling them to sit on a spear and rotate, or do what he tells them to do.
I'd rather have no crafter at all than to have someone try to work the group over in that manner. You can either get along with the group, or don't expect to go with the group. Saying you are doing what they ask while really giving them the finger doesn't really cut it.
You are just trying to force them into giving you your 20%- under the theory that they'll pay it rather than the extra 50% to the NPC vendor.
"Fine then I'll just not craft for you" is Not equivalent to 'Ok guys, if thats how you feel about it, we'll go with that"
-S
It may not be to you- and thats perfectly fine. I'd be really curious what one of the 20 or 40$'ers would say to someone coming in and crafting for free for everyone else- watching as their cash cow suddenly went dry.
RAW is very disturbing in the fact that by raw the PC's are the only way a crafter has to make money from his crafts, (that or taking one of your two traits for 5%).
To me personally- its also disturbing the folks who think that this makes it perfectly ok to make said profit from the other PC's.
Not because of WBL math and Dm's unwilling to handle WBL themselves- but just out of pure mercenary greed.The pure "I can charge you 20% and you can't stop me" is why I would be willing to have the character left behind in the tavern.
I wouldn't have a problem with it. Bring in your crafter - my approach has never been that it was a cash cow, but compensation for PC time spent during downtime.
Could you point out where any of the fee crafters said that it was for pure greed? I don't seem to recall anyone doing so. I would be interested in seeing which posts that I saw differently than you did.
The pure "I can charge you 20% and you can't stop me" is why I would be willing to have the character left behind in the tavern.But you can stop him. You can not buy from him. simple as that.
And may I ask why should the crafter PC be left in the tavern?
I think I answered that in one of my two posts just previous to this.. if not though, or if i wasn't clear, lemme know and I'll give it another go.
-S
It may not be to you- and thats perfectly fine. I'd be really curious what one of the 20 or 40$'ers would say to someone coming in and crafting for free for everyone else- watching as their cash cow suddenly went dry.
RAW is very disturbing in the fact that by raw the PC's are the only way a crafter has to make money from his crafts, (that or taking one of your two traits for 5%).
To me personally- its also disturbing the folks who think that this makes it perfectly ok to make said profit from the other PC's.
Not because of WBL math and Dm's unwilling to handle WBL themselves- but just out of pure mercenary greed.The pure "I can charge you 20% and you can't stop me" is why I would be willing to have the character left behind in the tavern.
I wouldn't have a problem with it. Bring in your crafter - my approach has never been that it was a cash cow, but compensation for PC time spent during downtime.
Could you point out where any of the fee crafters said that it was for pure greed? I don't seem to recall anyone doing so. I would be interested in seeing which posts that I saw differently than you did.
Well, everytime someone ignores or handwaives what I said about group time vs self time, I just figure its a greed argument. People handwaive it away as communism or whatever instead of accepting it as a perfectly valid way for the group to work.
If the group sets aside time for you to craft for the group, do you still get the 20%? If so, its greed. If not, then I'll concede the point.
Clearly this assumes some things to be true. so you can only craft X hours a day, it would assume that 1) you are done crafting for yourself either due to lack of ability (money) or willingness and that 2) there was time to be had for crafting and free time both. (i.e. that your character isn't being asked to use up all their free time just by relabeling it "group time".)
-S
Because being selfish doesn't really mesh with the general goals of the party, primarily.
Of course, that can change from party to party. But being out for yourself first last and only doesn't really leave much reason for the party to include you.
I mean it sounds so simple to say he has the option to just craft for himself but its not how it goes down.
Crafter:"Hey guys I want to charge 20% for my crafting, I feel thats a reasonable fee given that its still 30% off FMV".
party: "uhh *confers amongst self, and has the whole discussion civilly including with crafter and such*
Party: "we're really not comfortable with that. we feel that everyone is already getting paid for their work via the shared loot"
crafter: "oh.. well.. if I'm not getting paid for it, i'm not crafting for any of you. You can pay my 20%, or i'll just.. well.. use the feat for my personal benefit, sorry"The guy is *still* not going along with the wishes of the group. He's telling them to sit on a spear and rotate, or do what he tells them to do.
I'd rather have no crafter at all than to have someone try to work the group over in that manner. You can either get along with the group, or don't expect to go with the group. Saying you are doing what they ask while really giving them the finger doesn't really cut it.
You are just trying to force them into giving you your 20%- under the theory that they'll pay it rather than the extra 50% to the NPC vendor."Fine then I'll just not craft for you" is Not equivalent to 'Ok guys, if thats how you feel about it, we'll go with that"
Hmmm, I am not sure how to respond to the above. I find it interesting that in everyone of your examples, the fee crafter has a very negative attitude and tells the group what to do with themselves. I don't seem to recall that being part of any of the responses from the fee crafter crowd.
Let's say that I join your group and your group tells me no fees for crafting. My crafter says, OK, I understand what you are saying. Then crafts for himself and does spell research. No attitude, no smartalec comment. Would he get punted from the group? be considered selfish?
The pure "I can charge you 20% and you can't stop me" is why I would be willing to have the character left behind in the tavern.But you can stop him. You can not buy from him. simple as that.
And may I ask why should the crafter PC be left in the tavern?
Because its still defying the decision of the group.
if the group says 20% isn' fair then the correct answer isn't"well fine I'll just take the feat and not craft for any of you anyway"
Thats just being a selfish jerk. (the character here, not the player).
Going along with the group decision means doing as the group has decided- not telling them you are going to do it your way anyway and they can either accept it or screw off. Which is what "well i'll just craft for myself and you don't have to worry about the 20%" really means.
If the group says charging 20% is unacceptable the proper thing to do is go along with it, not shut down and refuse to cooperate. I mean hey its your character- you Can do that if you want.
and the group Can also leave you behind at the tavern and find someone else.
-S
Well, everytime someone ignores or handwaives what I said about group time vs self time, I just figure its a greed argument. People handwaive it away as communism or whatever instead of accepting it as a perfectly valid way for the group to work.
If the group sets aside time for you to craft for the group, do you still get the 20%? If so, its greed. If not, then I'll concede the point.
Clearly this assumes some things to be true. so you can only craft X hours a day, it would assume that 1) you are done crafting for yourself either due to lack of ability (money) or willingness and that 2) there was time to be had for crafting and free time both. (i.e. that your character isn't being asked to use up all their free time just by relabeling it "group time".)
I believe that I have stated more than once, if the rest of the group is busy with group activity, then it may not be appropriate to charge a fee (that in character conflict between my crafting cleric and the dwaven spellslinger would pretty well ensure that he found other things to do rather than craft for that ^$&^&$^$ dwarf :)).
If the crafting is done while adventuring, while the rest of the group does the camp chores, watch duty, etc... then I have no problem with not charging a fee.
As I may have mentioned a time of two (:)), it is about the compensation for downtime for my crafters.
As I may have mentioned a time of two (:)), it is about the compensation for downtime for my crafters.
It ends up being a pretty stiff price if it's just for the downtime, no? I mean, even lawyers don't charge that much for their time. :p
Because being selfish doesn't really mesh with the general goals of the party, primarily.
Of course, that can change from party to party. But being out for yourself first last and only doesn't really leave much reason for the party to include you.
I mean it sounds so simple to say he has the option to just craft for himself but its not how it goes down.
Crafter:"Hey guys I want to charge 20% for my crafting, I feel thats a reasonable fee given that its still 30% off FMV".
party: "uhh *confers amongst self, and has the whole discussion civilly including with crafter and such*
Party: "we're really not comfortable with that. we feel that everyone is already getting paid for their work via the shared loot"
crafter: "oh.. well.. if I'm not getting paid for it, i'm not crafting for any of you. You can pay my 20%, or i'll just.. well.. use the feat for my personal benefit, sorry"The guy is *still* not going along with the wishes of the group. He's telling them to sit on a spear and rotate, or do what he tells them to do.
I'd rather have no crafter at all than to have someone try to work the group over in that manner. You can either get along with the group, or don't expect to go with the group. Saying you are doing what they ask while really giving them the finger doesn't really cut it.
You are just trying to force them into giving you your 20%- under the theory that they'll pay it rather than the extra 50% to the NPC vendor."Fine then I'll just not craft for you" is Not equivalent to 'Ok guys, if thats how you feel about it, we'll go with that"
Hmmm, I am not sure how to respond to the above. I find it interesting that in everyone of your examples, the fee crafter has a very negative attitude and tells the group what to do with themselves. I don't seem to recall that being part of any of the responses from the fee crafter crowd.
Let's say that I join your group and your group tells me no fees for crafting. My crafter says, OK, I understand what you are...
Said or not, to me its implied.
If the guy is refusing to go along with the request of the group, he's giving them the finger. He can do it nicely and politely but a "screw you" is a "screw you" no matter how rosey its delivered.
The No fee group tells the crafter, the crafter says fine he'll craft for himself and then do some spell research.
Sometime later barbarian asks the crafter to upgrade his axe. The rest of the group is willing to split up some of the chores and such so that the crafter has the available time without having to delve into his personal time.
Does he say yes? No? Yes but only for 20%?
Which answer isn't a "screw you" no matter how nicely its phrased or said?
I get where you are coming from generally- but to me its about the group dynamic. No one person gets to dictate the terms to the group. Not the free-to-craft guy, not the fee-to-craft guy. (yanno calling me a commie and you a thief really made it easier to type out lol)
-S
Well, everytime someone ignores or handwaives what I said about group time vs self time, I just figure its a greed argument. People handwaive it away as communism or whatever instead of accepting it as a perfectly valid way for the group to work.
If the group sets aside time for you to craft for the group, do you still get the 20%? If so, its greed. If not, then I'll concede the point.
Clearly this assumes some things to be true. so you can only craft X hours a day, it would assume that 1) you are done crafting for yourself either due to lack of ability (money) or willingness and that 2) there was time to be had for crafting and free time both. (i.e. that your character isn't being asked to use up all their free time just by relabeling it "group time".)I believe that I have stated more than once, if the rest of the group is busy with group activity, then it may not be appropriate to charge a fee (that in character conflict between my crafting cleric and the dwaven spellslinger would pretty well ensure that he found other things to do rather than craft for that ^$&^&$^$ dwarf :)).
If the crafting is done while adventuring, while the rest of the group does the camp chores, watch duty, etc... then I have no problem with not charging a fee.
As I may have mentioned a time of two (:)), it is about the compensation for downtime for my crafters.
I missed those posts then Mistwalker. We have no real problem then.
-S
It ends up being a pretty stiff price if it's just for the downtime, no? I mean, even lawyers don't charge that much for their time. :p
As I may have mentioned a time of two (:)), it is about the compensation for downtime for my crafters.
Have you seen what lawyers charge?
Said or not, to me its implied.
If the guy is refusing to go along with the request of the group, he's giving them the finger. He can do it nicely and politely but a "screw you" is a "screw you" no matter how rosey its delivered.
The No fee group tells the crafter, the crafter says fine he'll craft for himself and then do some spell research.
Sometime later barbarian asks the crafter to upgrade his axe. The rest of the group is willing to split up some of the chores and such so that the crafter has the available time without having to delve into his personal time.
Does he say yes? No? Yes but only for 20%?Which answer isn't a "screw you" no matter how nicely its phrased or said?
I get where you are coming from generally- but to me its about the group dynamic. No one person gets to dictate the terms to the group. Not the free-to-craft guy, not the fee-to-craft guy. (yanno calling me a commie and you a thief really made it easier to type out lol)
And if the response was that the crafter was working on a new spell to help the group out - what would the barbarian say?
Yes, the meaning loaded tags are always shorter and easier to type. Why do you think that I call the two groups "fee crafters" and "free crafters"? It's short and easy to type (just make sure you put that pesky "r" in the right place)
:)
Have you seen what lawyers charge?It ends up being a pretty stiff price if it's just for the downtime, no? I mean, even lawyers don't charge that much for their time. :p
As I may have mentioned a time of two (:)), it is about the compensation for downtime for my crafters.
Yep, and it ain't cheap, but it also ain't several pounds of solid gold for a few hours work!
Yep, and it ain't cheap, but it also ain't several pounds of solid gold for a few hours work!Have you seen what lawyers charge?It ends up being a pretty stiff price if it's just for the downtime, no? I mean, even lawyers don't charge that much for their time. :p
As I may have mentioned a time of two (:)), it is about the compensation for downtime for my crafters.
Are we talking about several pounds of gold in game or out of game?
50 gp a day isn't horrendously outrageous. A performer can make up to 18 gp per performance (and it seems that you can do more than one performance per day), which took a maxed out skill, compared to a likely maxed out skill and a feat.
For argument's sake, let's say two performances a day, could net 36gp, which isn't too far off of 50gp for a full day's crafting.
For argument's sake, let's say two performances a day, could net 36gp, which isn't too far off of 50gp for a full day's crafting.
Even for argument's sake, 20% is 200 gp a day (as magic item progress is 1 day per 1000 gp base price). Also, the money results you get for music are per day, not per performance. Averages 10.5 gp per day, maxes at 18 gp per day.
Also again, this is for an amazingly good musician, so good that angels might translate themselves into the material world just to listen to his music.
I seriously cannot even begin to understand how the "free crafting crowd" can call the crafter a jerk for selling them stuff for a bargain and then turn around and do such jerk moves like blackmailing/threatening him or refusing to do their own job unless you pay them. :/ Can't you see how horribly flawed your arguments are? They totally work against you.
Wait.
How is charging your teammates more than you would get from an NPC for the same item-crafting a bargain?
For argument's sake, let's say two performances a day, could net 36gp, which isn't too far off of 50gp for a full day's crafting.Even for argument's sake, 20% is 200 gp a day (as magic item progress is 1 day per 1000 gp base price). Also, the money results you get for music are per day, not per performance. Averages 10.5 gp per day, maxes at 18 gp per day.
Also again, this is for the Mozart of Pathfinder, who is good enough that angels might come down from heaven to patronize his music.
Hmm, I suppose that it depends if the 10%, or 20% is based on the crafting price or retail price.
10% of the crafting price is 50gp a day. That was the initial fee that started this thread.
As to the performances, please take a look at the perform skill. I would like to bring your attention to the "action" paragraph, where it talks about a performance being an evening's work or a full day. Also, please look at the "retry" section, where it states that you can retry. Both of those lead me to believe that a performer can do more than one performance per day.
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Yar.
o_O
How is charging your teammates more than you would get from an NPC for the same item-crafting a bargain?
uhm... what?
It's a bargain for the PC selling as he's getting slightly more than he would otherwise.
It's a bargain for the PC's buying because it costs them 40-45% less that it would otherwise.
It's a bargain for everyone involved except for the local NPC merchant.
~P
I seriously cannot even begin to understand how the "free crafting crowd" can call the crafter a jerk for selling them stuff for a bargain and then turn around and do such jerk moves like blackmailing/threatening him or refusing to do their own job unless you pay them. :/ Can't you see how horribly flawed your arguments are? They totally work against you.Wait.
How is charging your teammates more than you would get from an NPC for the same item-crafting a bargain?
If you are going to start throwing in metagame rules, then we should also throw in:
WBLSKR's ruling on craft feats
And that in RAW, where it says that magic items are "generaly" sold for half price - we need to have a discussion about what the word generaly actually means and why it is in that particular sentence.
As to the performances, please take a look at the perform skill. I would like to bring your attention to the "action" paragraph, where it talks about a performance being an evening's work or a full day. Also, please look at the "retry" section, where it states that you can retry. Both of those lead me to believe that a performer can do more than one performance per day.
I recommend looking at Perform as well. First the 3d6 gp figure you were looking at, and then looking a couple characters to the right, where you will find: /day. ;)
This leads me to believe that a performer could indeed make multiple tries per day, but that he earns the given amounts per day, no doubt based off his best check if he tried more than once.
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I seriously cannot even begin to understand how the "free crafting crowd" can call the crafter a jerk for selling them stuff for a bargain and then turn around and do such jerk moves like blackmailing/threatening him or refusing to do their own job unless you pay them. :/ Can't you see how horribly flawed your arguments are? They totally work against you.Wait.
How is charging your teammates more than you would get from an NPC for the same item-crafting a bargain?
because paying 200gp per day is better then 1k extra per day
If you are going to start throwing in metagame rules, then we should also throw in:
I am not particularly sure this qualifies as a metagame rule. It seems more like a game rule? It concerns literal in-world happenings, not abstractions or such.
And that in RAW, where it says that magic items are "generaly" sold for half price - we need to have a discussion about what the word generaly actually means and why it is in that particular sentence.
The actual rules quote is slightly different. It does not say you can sell items, generally for half price, it says:
In general, a character can sell something for half its listed price, including weapons, armor, gear, and magic items. This also includes character-created items.
Presumably because sometimes a character can't sell something. There are many reasons why this might be so - because it is above the wealth limit of the town, for example.
And in any case, "this also includes character-crafted items" seems perfectly clear.
Leaving rules for a moment and going to personal experience:
Usually when I have seen a player try to charge fellow players for crafting, it is because he is frustrated that the item-crafting rules are designed to prevent making a profit, and tries to circumvent this by marking up his prices for fellow PCs (since NPCs would not normally pay a marked-up price, PCs are usually the only people one can mark up in this way). Usually this causes nothing but bad feelings in the other PC, because this is not really a game about profiting off fellow PCs, it is a game about profiting off the murder of various ugly monsters ;)
If you are going to start throwing in metagame rules, then we should also throw in:I am not particularly sure this qualifies as a metagame rule. It seems more like a game rule? It concerns literal in-world happenings, not abstractions or such.
And that in RAW, where it says that magic items are "generaly" sold for half price - we need to have a discussion about what the word generaly actually means and why it is in that particular sentence.The actual rules quote is slightly different. It does not say you can sell items, generally for half price, it says:
In general, a character can sell something for half its listed price, including weapons, armor, gear, and magic items. This also includes character-created items.Presumably because sometimes a character can't sell something. There are many reasons why this might be so - because it is above the wealth limit of the town, for example.
And in any case, "this also includes character-crafted items" seems perfectly clear.
That the PCs generaly can't sell items for more than half price, which just happens to be crafting costs, is a metagame rule put in place to avoid PCs being able to set up shop for a few months (or year) and walk away with hundreds of thousand gold pieces.
My interpretation about "In general" includes not only not being able to sell, or sell for even less than half price, but also being able to sell for more than half price.
Would you care to also address WBL and SKR's FAQ ruling?
As to the performances, please take a look at the perform skill. I would like to bring your attention to the "action" paragraph, where it talks about a performance being an evening's work or a full day. Also, please look at the "retry" section, where it states that you can retry. Both of those lead me to believe that a performer can do more than one performance per day.I recommend looking at Perform as well. First the 3d6 gp figure you were looking at, and then looking a couple characters to the right, where you will find: /day. ;)
This leads me to believe that a performer could indeed make multiple tries per day, but that he earns the given amounts per day, no doubt based off his best check if he tried more than once.
Perhaps you are correct.
If so, then making several perform checks per day and taking the best one, would also increase the avearge, would it not?
Hmm, a wizard, if they put in a few ranks in a craft skill, could at level nine earn 100 gp, 6 sp and 6 cp, simply by casting the fabricate spell and making a masterwork dagger.
Would that not mean that a crafting wizard would be losing gold if they crafted for free during their downtime?
I mean it sounds so simple to say he has the option to just craft for himself but its not how it goes down.
Crafter:"Hey guys I want to charge 20% for my crafting, I feel thats a reasonable fee given that its still 30% off FMV".
party: "uhh *confers amongst self, and has the whole discussion civilly including with crafter and such*
Party: "we're really not comfortable with that. we feel that everyone is already getting paid for their work via the shared loot"
crafter: "oh.. well.. if I'm not getting paid for it, i'm not crafting for any of you. You can pay my 20%, or i'll just.. well.. use the feat for my personal benefit, sorry"The guy is *still* not going along with the wishes of the group. He's telling them to sit on a spear and rotate, or do what he tells them to do.
In other words... Only the majority can dictate to the individual how to create and play his character. You seem to think that the crafter is at fault for choosing to play his character the way he wants to. I find that line of reasoning quite offensive.
That the PCs generaly can't sell items for more than half price, which just happens to be crafting costs, is a metagame rule put in place to avoid PCs being able to set up shop for a few months (or year) and walk away with hundreds of thousand gold pieces.
Okay, I agree with you that the rules are intended not to allow PCs to make a profit off item crafting. But I think you may be misusing the term metagame.
My interpretation about "In general" includes not only not being able to sell, or sell for even less than half price, but also being able to sell for more than half price.
Hm. I won't say a DM cannot allow his PCs to sell for whatever price he wishes them to, but I feel doubtful that the intent of that rule is to suggest he do so. It seems a lot more common sense to me to read it my way - that the rule is suggesting that PCs are not always able to sell items (which is well supported later on in various other rules) than that it is instead suggesting they sell for other than half price (which I don't think you will find much support for elsewhere in the rules).
Admittedly there is probably a tendency to assume my way is common sense, but still, why read it as a reference to something unsupported anywhere else than as a reference to something well-supported elsewhere?
Would you care to also address WBL and SKR's FAQ ruling?
I won't claim to have read this whole thread. What about either the WBL or SKR's FAQ ruling suggests that PCs with item crafting should sell items - either to each other or to third parties - for differently than half price, and how does it need to be addressed?
Yar.
o_O
How is charging your teammates more than you would get from an NPC for the same item-crafting a bargain?uhm... what?
It's a bargain for the PC selling as he's getting slightly more than he would otherwise.
It's a bargain for the PC's buying because it costs them 40-45% less that it would otherwise.
It's a bargain for everyone involved except for the local NPC merchant.
~P
Yar, indeed (You are right!)
In other words... Only the majority can dictate to the individual how to create and play his character. You seem to think that the crafter is at fault for choosing to play his character the way he wants to. I find that line of reasoning quite offensive.
It's a team game. You don't have to play your character as someone else tells you to, but you do have to play it in a way that doesn't cause bad feelings for other players.
And trying to circumvent the general (and IMO intended) design feature of kmagic item crafting that prevents players from using magic item crafting to make a profit, by trying to take that profit out of another PC's pocket since you couldn't get it any other way, is likely to cause bad feelings. At least in my experience. YMMV.
Hm. I won't say a DM cannot allow his PCs to sell for whatever price he wishes them to, but I feel doubtful that the intent of that rule is to suggest he do so. It seems a lot more common sense to me to read it my way - that the rule is suggesting that PCs are not always able to sell items (which is well supported later on in various other rules) than that it is instead suggesting they sell for other than half price (which I don't think you will find much support for elsewhere in the rules).
Admittedly there is probably a tendency to assume my way is common sense, but still, why read it as a reference to something unsupported anywhere else than as a reference to something well-supported elsewhere?
Could you point out where your interpretation is well supported elsewhere?
I won't claim to have read this whole thread. What about either the WBL or SKR's FAQ ruling suggests that PCs with item crafting should sell items - either to each other or to third parties - for differently than half price, and how does it need to be addressed?
Wealth by Level (WBL) is how much adventuring gold piece value in equipment that a PC is supposed to have, page 399 of the core.
SKR's FAQ on crafting states that when calculating the wealth of a crafter, the crafting cost should be used and not the retail cost that non-crafter should use. Basically, if a crafter makes their own items, they could in theory have twice the "retail" value in items than non-crafters.
Could you point out where your interpretation is well supported elsewhere?Hm. I won't say a DM cannot allow his PCs to sell for whatever price he wishes them to, but I feel doubtful that the intent of that rule is to suggest he do so. It seems a lot more common sense to me to read it my way - that the rule is suggesting that PCs are not always able to sell items (which is well supported later on in various other rules) than that it is instead suggesting they sell for other than half price (which I don't think you will find much support for elsewhere in the rules).
Admittedly there is probably a tendency to assume my way is common sense, but still, why read it as a reference to something unsupported anywhere else than as a reference to something well-supported elsewhere?
Sure. My interpretation (that it is referring to the occasions in which it may not be possible to sell treasure for half price) may be supported by citing several examples later in the rules of such occasions. For example, one situation spelled out in the rules where a PC may not be able to sell a piece of treasure for half price is when it is higher than the purchase limit of the town they are trying to sell it in.
SKR's FAQ on crafting states that when calculating the wealth of a crafter, the crafting cost should be used and not the retail cost that non-crafter should use. Basically, if a crafter makes their own items, they could in theory have twice the "retail" value in items than non-crafters.
I know his ruling. I guess where I don't follow you is how it suggests such a crafter should sell crafted items for higher than half price (crafting price, if you prefer). I don't particularly see where there arises the difficulty in reconciling his ruling and my position?
Read my posts instead of making up stuff I supposedly say loaba and you wouldn't have to ask questions that have been answered repeatedly.
Take the feat. Craft yourself stuff. Craft stuff and sell it to merchants. Take the trait exploit that lets you make money that way. I don't care.
But don't turn my character into your profit center. I don't do it to you, so don't do it to me.
As I told YOU directly in a previous post. I don't NEED your crafting items. I can FIND stuff for FREE by adventuring. That's why I do it. If you want to spend weeks crafting things, then knock yourself out. If it makes you a better party member, that's great too. But don't come to me and claim you're giving me a discount when you actually are selling it to me at the highest cost you actually can.
And stop with the attempts to paint my argument as metagaming loaba. Your dull, boring repetition of an unfounded assertion doesn't do anything but annoy people.
Except that it has been proven to be metagaming. Unless you you roll appraise. Even then it's not exact, and you have no guarentee the merchant will give you the exact price or that items will be sold at book value.
The GM's I play with just go by the book because its easier. But the prices are guidelines, not set in stone.
And, just cause you sell 50 swords for one price doesn't mean you will know what that 1 axe you have is worth.
It's a team game. You don't have to play your character as someone else tells you to, but you do have to play it in a way that doesn't cause bad feelings for other players.
And trying to circumvent the general (and IMO intended) design feature of kmagic item crafting that prevents players from using magic item crafting to make a profit, by trying to take that profit out of another PC's pocket since you couldn't get it any other way, is likely to cause bad feelings. At least in my experience. YMMV.
How is me using my craft feat only for me supposed to hurt others? Why are some people so upset at getting such a great deal?
There are traits that already circumvent the "intended" design feature against crafting for profit. The crafting feats are also designed to benefit only the crafters WBL. Another player taking advantage of the crafter is the one breaking the general rule.
How is me using my craft feat only for me supposed to hurt others?
It doesn't hurt them any more than casting my haste spell only on myself hurts them. However, it may well piss them off, much like casting my haste spell only on myself may well piss them off (even though it's my spell, not theirs).
Charging to include them in the spell (even if you only charge 10%) is also something that may piss them off.
I won't claim to have read this whole thread. What about either the WBL or SKR's FAQ ruling suggests that PCs with item crafting should sell items - either to each other or to third parties - for differently than half price, and how does it need to be addressed?
WBL for a crafter is determined using his crafted items at half price. That means that his WBL (if crafting all gear) should be double that of the other players.
You are right in that there is nothing covering selling items to eachother. However, in order to maintain that intended balance, if the crafter were to craft for his party, he would then have to charge a fee to make up the imbalance he caused when he raised the WBL of his party member.
Or the DM could just do it for him, but the DM generally doesn't care about inter-party economy as much as one would think.
*Damn, heading out for the weekend and will likely miss the 2k milestone. Someone post a WOOT! for me when we get there :) *
I won't claim to have read this whole thread. What about either the WBL or SKR's FAQ ruling suggests that PCs with item crafting should sell items - either to each other or to third parties - for differently than half price, and how does it need to be addressed?WBL for a crafter is determined using his crafted items at half price. That means that his WBL (if crafting all gear) should be double that of the other players.
You are right in that there is nothing covering selling items to eachother. However, in order to maintain that intended balance, if the crafter were to craft for his party, he would then have to charge a fee to make up the imbalance he caused when he raised the WBL of his party member.
Why? No correcting need be done. It's a FAQ on the WBL of items crafted by a PC, not by and for the same PC. I see nothing in the FAQ stating that the ruling is not valid if the crafted item is for another party member.
It seems to generally assume that most crafting is done for the crafter (probably a safe assumption as Scribe Scroll is the most ubiquitous crafting feat), but I don't get where you are seeing that it mandates the crafter monitor his other party members to maintain their WBL by redistributing their crafting gps to himself. That seems really a stretch. You're breaking WBL objectively in one direction (the crafter will end up with higher WBL than he should, even accounting for self-crafting, because of the fees) in order to avoid theoretically breaking it in another (the other PC would theoretically end up with higher WBL due to a crafted item) - except the other PC wouldn't, as crafted items are counted at half cost. So you're breaking it to end up with the crafted-for PC below WBL and the crafter above - wrong in both directions.
What isn't his job is to craft for free, even for his teammates. That's a downtime thing. A hobby. Like gardening, but more useful.
It's not my job to use my Cavalier's Expert Trainer class ability to train our party's horses for combat. But I do it anyway, and I don't charge a fee, even though according to the Bestiary, in order to train certain animals you have to hire an animal trainer. I COULD charge the party, if I was interested in trying to weasel gold out of them
He's also doing them a service. A big service, I should add, because they save a whole 40% and get a commissioned item, not a random one.
It's not about how much of a discount you provide. It's about a principle. The principle of "I will not take advantage of the rules to make money off of my adventuring buddies."
Because that is what fee-crafters are doing. By RAW they can't sell their items at more than 50% of their shop price to NPCs. But they CAN to players. And by RAW NPC shop owners can't lower their prices to compete with a crafter undercutting their business.
The same with the argument "I'm gonna charge for every swing/heal/disabled trap". That's fine, but then you will get kicked out from the team for not doing your job. Bye.
Oh, so taking feats to expand healing for the party, at the expense of feats for your own character, constitutes a "job" but taking feats to create items is not. (And thus, take advantage of the rules to acquire extra gold).
You know why party healers get called "The gimp" sometimes? Because that is sometimes how they get treated by the party.
You sound incredibly hypocritical.