Edit: Actually no. The crafter's WBL stays the same. How his crafted items count against his WBL is what changes. A crafted 10k gp item only counts for 5k gp worth of his WBL but the WBL amount for him doesn't change.
WBL is a GM tool. Not a player one. This is why it's in the GM section of the book. Players don't care. However, if a crafter begins supplying the party then the GM should theoretically be giving fewer treasure rewards for them to be "on track."
yes
But not the crafter since he bought a higher WBL with the feat.
nit picking here, but the crafted items are supposed to count at 1/2 to wealth is supposed to stay the same
Umm... yeah, the metagaming going on in these arguments is crazy. Nevermind the math.
Think of this in terms of what's IC. Lets assume you are close to the group, as close as family. So, in real life terms, you're now an overly skilled plumber. Does that automatically mean you're going to do all the plumbing for your family for free just because they help out in emergencies? Remembering that in cases of family emergencies you to are always there, helping out as well... Is a sizable discount fair in the case of families? In my case yes. I would charge even family a reduced price, barring mitigating circumstances.
Some groups are going to demand you do it at cost. If you think it's appropriate for your character, go for it.
If all that matters is the numbers: ask your GM. He's the one who needs to adjust loot as a result.
As for whether taking the feat gimps you in combat? Well, you're still effectively richer then the rest of the party, so I'd say that's nonsense. Over the course of levels, most feats only give an effective 1-2 bonus to some action, and this feat, even if only used for yourself, definitely gives you that.
Now, on the other hand, I would highly recomend that you prepare to make exceptions and make items at cost when appropriate.
I don't think I need a reasoning to say they should pay you the 10% you are asking for, but when you start pushing out magic items for half price and they are buying magic items for market price they'll change there tune.
But yes your group has way way way to much metagaming if they are getting upset about this in Real Life, no understanding of the effort and sacrifice you made, or the amazing deal you are making them. Also when the GM reduces party loot dropped for some odd reason why I don't understand it will be your party that feels the burn since you are still getting an equal share of the loot and pushing out your own magic items.
Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
dragonfire8974 wrote:
Mistwalker wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:
i've looked at the math, but how do you keep the crafter from not getting out of control in Wealth?
There is nothing that needs to be controled if a 20% fee is applied.
10th level party of 4
WBL 62,000 gp
Fee crafter party 20% fee
3 characters pay the crafter 12,400 gp, leaving them 49,600 gp, which turns into WBL of 99,200
crafter has 62,000+3*12,400 = a WBL of 99,200 gp
Everyone ends up with the same amount of WBL. No intervention of the GM on either side required.
let me try this again
but then the FAQ everyone bats around so much is getting ignored because the other characters now have 50% above WBL where the Crafter is supposed to be the only one who has wealth benefits. according to the FAQ, the other characters have to be charged at full price
Take a look at the numbers. You should notice that the 3 non-crafters, after paying the fee, have 49,600 in gold to spend, which the crafter turns into 99,200 gp worth of gear.
The crafter, after receiving the fees from the others has 99,200 gp, which he turns into 99,200 gp worth of gear because his WBL is based on cost, not retail.
So, with the 20% fee, the crafter and non-crafters all have an equivalent amount of wealth. So there isn't even the appearance/perception of anyone being taken advantage of.
Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Trayce wrote:
Umm... yeah, the metagaming going on in these arguments is crazy. Nevermind the math.
Well, the conversation has ranged from in-character rationales, out-of-character rationales, metagamed information, philosophy (types of covernment/group apprach) and to math.
The math actually is important, as both sides were/are feeling that they are being taken advantage of by the other side. The math is to show that if a reasonable fee (20% for a party of 4 - haven't done the math on other party sizes) is applied, no one is being taken advantage of, so no one feels abused by the crafting.
I once played a gish with a lot of buff spells, and one day (IRL) i had to leave early to go to my buddy's graduation party. Since the rest of the players were about to go fight some monster,and I felt bad leaving them hanging, I decided to just spam buffs on them before heading out.
The paladin in the party really liked getting a +4 buff to AC from Barkskin, so next fight he asked me if I could cast it again for him in the next encounter, and I was like "sure"
Anyway, it got to the point where he started constantly factoring in my buff when calculating his AC. It had gone from being something I could throw in there to help the party to something I *HAD* to do. And it bothered me. At one point I refused, as I needed the spell slots for something else, and he got mad at me. I had no real obligation to be the buffbot, and I didnt appreciate that they thought otherwise (also, one time we argued over loot and the paladin just said I was a wizard who could use a sword and I should just stay in the back, but whatever)
Fast forward a few months later, I switched characters and instead played an Arcane Trickster, one of my spells was fly. We're fighting a bunch of monsters, some of which could fly. While I'm having the time of my life blasting and sneak attacking the monsters, the Paladin is grounded (Because he didnt have the foresight to buy a bow), and he told me to cast fly on him. So I told him sure, but it will cost him money (wasn't much, just whatever the price is for a level 10 caster to cast a lvl 3 spell). He got pissed off at me and the game paused momentarily as we argued.
Bottom line is: there's nothing wrong with charging a convenience fee for stuff like that. It benefits you as you get money, it benefits your party members as they are still getting a big discount, and most importantly, it REMINDS that your services (and by extension, your character) should not be abused.
i've looked at the math, but how do you keep the crafter from not getting out of control in Wealth?
There is nothing that needs to be controled if a 20% fee is applied.
10th level party of 4
WBL 62,000 gp
Fee crafter party 20% fee
3 characters pay the crafter 12,400 gp, leaving them 49,600 gp, which turns into WBL of 99,200
crafter has 62,000+3*12,400 = a WBL of 99,200 gp
Everyone ends up with the same amount of WBL. No intervention of the GM on either side required.
let me try this again
but then the FAQ everyone bats around so much is getting ignored because the other characters now have 50% above WBL where the Crafter is supposed to be the only one who has wealth benefits. according to the FAQ, the other characters have to be charged at full price
Take a look at the numbers. You should notice that the 3 non-crafters, after paying the fee, have 49,600 in gold to spend, which the crafter turns into 99,200 gp worth of gear.
The crafter, after receiving the fees from the others has 99,200 gp, which he turns into 99,200 gp worth of gear because his WBL is based on cost, not retail.
So, with the 20% fee, the crafter and non-crafters all have an equivalent amount of wealth. So there isn't even the appearance/perception of anyone being taken advantage of.
this is only taking part of the FAQ's rulings into account. Again, i don't agree with it, but the FAQ says that only the crafter can benefit from the increased wealth that the feat grants. this implies that you have to sell to the other PCs at 100% price
I once played a gish with a lot of buff spells, and one day (IRL) i had to leave early to go to my buddy's graduation party. Since the rest of the players were about to go fight some monster,and I felt bad leaving them hanging, I decided to just spam buffs on them before heading out.
The paladin in the party really liked getting a +4 buff to AC from Barkskin, so next fight he asked me if I could cast it again for him in the next encounter, and I was like "sure"
Anyway, it got to the point where he started constantly factoring in my buff when calculating his AC. It had gone from being something I could throw in there to help the party to something I *HAD* to do. And it bothered me. At one point I refused, as I needed the spell slots for something else, and he got mad at me. I had no real obligation to be the buffbot, and I didnt appreciate that they thought otherwise (also, one time we argued over loot and the paladin just said I was a wizard who could use a sword and I should just stay in the back, but whatever)
Fast forward a few months later, I switched characters and instead played an Arcane Trickster, one of my spells was fly. We're fighting a bunch of monsters, some of which could fly. While I'm having the time of my life blasting and sneak attacking the monsters, the Paladin is grounded (Because he didnt have the foresight to buy a bow), and he told me to cast fly on him. So I told him sure, but it will cost him money (wasn't much, just whatever the price is for a level 10 caster to cast a lvl 3 spell). He got pissed off at me and the game paused momentarily as we argued.
Bottom line is: there's nothing wrong with charging a convenience fee for stuff like that. It benefits you as you get money, it benefits your party members as they are still getting a big discount, and most importantly, it REMINDS that your services (and by extension, your character) should not be abused.
this sounds like a hard game to play in. would you have charged if the paladin didn't request your buff, or expect it and instead just appreciated it when you gave it to him?
Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
dragonfire8974 wrote:
Mistwalker wrote:
Take a look at the numbers. You should notice that the 3 non-crafters, after paying the fee, have 49,600 in gold to spend, which the crafter turns into 99,200 gp worth of gear.
The crafter, after receiving the fees from the others has 99,200 gp, which he turns into 99,200 gp worth of gear because his WBL is based on cost, not retail.
So, with the 20% fee, the crafter and non-crafters all have an equivalent amount of wealth. So there isn't even the appearance/perception of anyone being taken advantage of.
this is only taking part of the FAQ's rulings into account. Again, i don't agree with it, but the FAQ says that only the crafter can benefit from the increased wealth that the feat grants. this implies that you have to sell to the other PCs at 100% price
I don't have the same perception, I see it saying that if the crafting is making their own items, they should have double the retail cost in items as the rest of the PCs. Yes, you could charge full price, and it would work if you were a party of two, but if you were in a party of four, then the crafter would suddenly have a lot more wealth than the rest.
So, you are comfortable with the numbers? Agree that they respect the FAQ and that no one is getting taken advantage of?
this (Mistwalker's Math] is only taking part of the FAQ's rulings into account. Again, i don't agree with it, but the FAQ says that only the crafter can benefit from the increased wealth that the feat grants. this implies that you have to sell to the other PCs at 100% price
Y'know what, even if you charged the party 100%, you'd still be doing them a service by supplying custom-ordered magic items. That is a major point that has continually been lost or overlooked in this thread. The Free Crafters simply refuse to acknowledge that eliminating the percentile dice is an advantage worth paying for.
I once played a gish with a lot of buff spells, and one day (IRL) i had to leave early to go to my buddy's graduation party. Since the rest of the players were about to go fight some monster,and I felt bad leaving them hanging, I decided to just spam buffs on them before heading out.
The paladin in the party really liked getting a +4 buff to AC from Barkskin, so next fight he asked me if I could cast it again for him in the next encounter, and I was like "sure"
Anyway, it got to the point where he started constantly factoring in my buff when calculating his AC. It had gone from being something I could throw in there to help the party to something I *HAD* to do. And it bothered me. At one point I refused, as I needed the spell slots for something else, and he got mad at me. I had no real obligation to be the buffbot, and I didnt appreciate that they thought otherwise (also, one time we argued over loot and the paladin just said I was a wizard who could use a sword and I should just stay in the back, but whatever)
Fast forward a few months later, I switched characters and instead played an Arcane Trickster, one of my spells was fly. We're fighting a bunch of monsters, some of which could fly. While I'm having the time of my life blasting and sneak attacking the monsters, the Paladin is grounded (Because he didnt have the foresight to buy a bow), and he told me to cast fly on him. So I told him sure, but it will cost him money (wasn't much, just whatever the price is for a level 10 caster to cast a lvl 3 spell). He got pissed off at me and the game paused momentarily as we argued.
Bottom line is: there's nothing wrong with charging a convenience fee for stuff like that. It benefits you as you get money, it benefits your party members as they are still getting a big discount, and most importantly, it REMINDS that your services (and by extension, your character) should not be abused.
this sounds like a hard game to play in. would you have charged if the paladin didn't...
Yes, I was playing a sorcerer, so I had plenty of spell slots. It just annoyed me that he thought he was the shining star. He almost got himself killed once by pretty much jumping into some large lake monster (luckily the inquisitor killed it, saving him)
And when I was using my AT, I went scouting and found a room with barbed devils. Me and the Inquisitor (both had maxxed stealth and perception) are trying to set up a surprise attack (They hadnt seen us yet) when the paladin decides that he must vanquish these evil creatures. He runs in, gets grappled by BOTH monsters, and is now taking ongoing damage as they pierce through him. There went our element of surprise, and I had to waste a round casting grease on him so he could get out of the grapple.
Again, it's all about being appreciated for your efforts and contributions
Take a look at the numbers. You should notice that the 3 non-crafters, after paying the fee, have 49,600 in gold to spend, which the crafter turns into 99,200 gp worth of gear.
The crafter, after receiving the fees from the others has 99,200 gp, which he turns into 99,200 gp worth of gear because his WBL is based on cost, not retail.
So, with the 20% fee, the crafter and non-crafters all have an equivalent amount of wealth. So there isn't even the appearance/perception of anyone being taken advantage of.
this is only taking part of the FAQ's rulings into account. Again, i don't agree with it, but the FAQ says that only the crafter can benefit from the increased wealth that the feat grants. this implies that you have to sell to the other PCs at 100% price
I don't have the same perception, I see it saying that if the crafting is making their own items, they should have double the retail cost in items as the rest of the PCs. Yes, you could charge full price, and it would work if you were a party of two, but if you were in a party of four, then the crafter would suddenly have a lot more wealth than the rest.
So, you are comfortable with the numbers? Agree that they respect the FAQ and that no one is getting taken advantage of?
I agree that that's an interpretation of the FAQ, but i really dislike that FAQ.
this (Mistwalker's Math] is only taking part of the FAQ's rulings into account. Again, i don't agree with it, but the FAQ says that only the crafter can benefit from the increased wealth that the feat grants. this implies that you have to sell to the other PCs at 100% price
Y'know what, even if you charged the party 100%, you'd still be doing them a service by supplying custom-ordered magic items. That is a major point that has continually been lost or overlooked in this thread. The Free Crafters simply refuse to acknowledge that eliminating the percentile dice is an advantage worth paying for.
custom items are worth it, don't get me wrong, but my objections are generally of a meta origin
I agree that that's an interpretation of the FAQ, but i really dislike that FAQ.
I know that you and a few others don't like that FAQ, but it is RAW.
What about the numbers. Are they correct? Have I made an error anywhere?
Do the follow the intent of the FAQ?
the intent of the FAQ is that the crafter have more wealth than the rest of the party. and I think the FAQ says that crafted items count as 1/2 cost when it comes to WBL, and i think that applies to all crafted items, not just for the crafters
this is only taking part of the FAQ's rulings into account. Again, i don't agree with it, but the FAQ says that only the crafter can benefit from the increased wealth that the feat grants. this implies that you have to sell to the other PCs at 100% price
That FAQ is when NPC's sell not when players sell to players. Also like in Real Life or midevil times you can Haggle the price down with Diplomacy or Bluff.
Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
dragonfire8974 wrote:
Mistwalker wrote:
What about the numbers. Are they correct? Have I made an error anywhere?
Do the follow the intent of the FAQ?
the intent of the FAQ is that the crafter have more wealth than the rest of the party. and I think the FAQ says that crafted items count as 1/2 cost when it comes to WBL, and i think that applies to all crafted items, not just for the crafters
Do you agree with the numbers? Are there any errors in them?
Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
dragonfire8974 wrote:
the intent of the FAQ is that the crafter have more wealth than the rest of the party. and I think the FAQ says that crafted items count as 1/2 cost when it comes to WBL, and i think that applies to all crafted items, not just for the crafters
I am reading the FAQ differently.
SKR FAQ wrote:
If you're equipping a higher-level PC, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise the character isn't getting any benefit for having the feat.
I take that to mean that only the crafter's crafted items are counted at cost. Otherwise, there is no benefit for having the feat.
Umm... yeah, the metagaming going on in these arguments is crazy. Nevermind the math.
Well, the conversation has ranged from in-character rationales, out-of-character rationales, metagamed information, philosophy (types of covernment/group apprach) and to math.
The math actually is important, as both sides were/are feeling that they are being taken advantage of by the other side. The math is to show that if a reasonable fee (20% for a party of 4 - haven't done the math on other party sizes) is applied, no one is being taken advantage of, so no one feels abused by the crafting.
Can you point to me where you done your math? Because my math shows it to be a bit different for 20%.
Suzaku wrote:
Wealth of each party member with no crafter, 50k, and only have 32 days of down time.
Party 1 50k
Party 2 50k
Party 3 50k
Party 4 50k
Now if there is a crafter, there are going to be 8 days of crafting each person.
Player 1 54K
Player 2 54k
Player 3 54k
Player 4 54K
A little bit wealth disparity but not much, which easily be made up on next treasure hall.
Now lets say someone in the group wants an item that normally is 16k or 16 days, person 2-4 are still going to want their items.
End results
Player 1 58k
Player 2 54k
Player 3 54k
Player 4 50k
A little bit wealth disparity takes much longer to fix unless loot goes to slightly lopsided. You're going to expect this to happen when you get if there is no commission fee. Player 1 is going to be either the wizard or someone who views the caster's time is worthless.
Now if the caster wants to make 2 items for 8 days each. But his party members also want 8 days worth of work. Someone is going to get hosed, so instead the crafter charges 25% of his work and everyone get 8 days including the caster himself. The crafter buy his second item at full price because the downtime is limited.
Player 1 60k
Player 2 52k
Player 3 52k
Player 4 52k
Granted player 2-3 are equal, but player 1 has a bit more wealth. But on the upside it's easier to adjust the wealth's group loot could be generated in way that it doesn't benefit player 1 as much as player 2-4.
Now lets assume Player 1 charges 20% and each player wants 11k worth of item. So player 1 makes the items and decides to purchase said items in the market place.
Player 1 56.6k
Player 2 53.3k
Player 3 53.3k
Player 4 53.3k
It's a smaller gap. Now lets see if it's at 10% like OP charged.
Player 1 53.3K
Player 2 54.4K
Player 3 54.4K
Player 4 54.4K
It becomes reverse, the players are actually profiting off the crafter in the above scenario.
So in short it depends on how much free time the crafter has and it's all depended on how much known free time the player can spend. Your free time can be interrupted by some sort outside events: like a giant tribe raid, sibling gets kidnapped etc all canceling whatever free time you have.
My math is based on 50k - (cost of materials + any commissioning fee) + cost of said final item.
Can you point to me where you done your math? Because my math shows it to be a bit different for 20%.
His math is based on WBL*(% of crafting he wants to charge) = fee which results in numbers that are slightly off. The larger the % the larger the discrepancy.
His math examples:
10% example: 62000*10% = 6200fee
20% example: 62000*20% = 12400fee
I have shown however this produces a 1% error in the math. At 20% fee it produces a 4% error.
error calculations:
10% calculations: 62000-6200(fee) = 55800
When we try to take 55800 and multiply it by the 10% we instead get 5580 not 6200. This is a difference of 620 or 1%. (620/62000 = 0.01 or 1%)
20% calculations: 62000-12400(fee) = 49600
When we try to take 49600 and multiply it by the 20% we instead get 9920 not 12400. This is a difference of 2480 or 4% (2480/62000 = 0.04 or 4%)
Proper method for calculating fee based on WBL is: WBL-(WBL/(1+%fee)) = fee
10% Example: 62000-(62000/1.1) = 5636.36 in fees
20% example: 62000-(62000/1.2) = 10333.33 in fees
This means that at 20% the crafter would have a WBL of 93,000 while his allies have 103,333.34.
Note: this is using the assumption that the allies are having 100% of thier equipment crafted for them. A statement that is false for most if not all classes.
There is no easy math that will balance out WBL if the crafter charges fees because no ally will have only purely crafted equipment. The ONLY way to maintain WBL while allowing a crafter to craft for his allies is to charge full price and donate the price above cost to a non-WBL purpose (temple, castle, whatever doesnt count for WBL).
1 -> The fee crafter crowd has stated that they fully participate in combat. . .
2 ->The crafter is willing to cut a huge discount for the team mate, but shouldn't be forced to have their time unrewarded, be unappreciated. . .
3 ->The out-of-character issue is two fold. The first one is WBL. . .
4 ->The second issue is that the crafter ends up having to take one for the team, as they are down at least one feat. . .
( I added the numbers to help clarify what I'm talking about when, maybe I'll be less scattered this way ;) )
As to 1. . . yeah, that analogy failed to communicate the point. Failure mine.
An amusing aside (not to be taken as a serious analogy). I was struck by a vague similarity to certain cRPGs. . . where the player's group is approaching the Mount Doom equivalent and encounter that final Merchant. The world is about to end. . . and this guy still wants his money. I'm not making a claim, simply amusing myself with some gaming nostalgia.
2. . . an in game thing. There are a couple ways of approaching this. Frankly however, if a player is not going to feel appreciated unless they charge fees, then charge the fees and move on. This is not a balance thing, its a FUN thing. Feeling unappreciated doesn't lead to a good time by all or any. If I knew a player was feeling this way ahead of time I would chat with him/her about alternatives, but worse comes to worse prep the rest of the party with a chat ahead of time so there wasn't any surprises.
For instance, the party crafter is a buff character. Instead of casting Bull's Strength in a combat, I'll craft a +4 STR item and save myself the action when combat comes. Generally speaking parties appreciate their buff casters, and getting first crack at the loot would not be unusual. The party politic normally rewards that type of player, through loot and effort by the other party members to protect that member from harm.
Normally the games I'm involved in makes the whole question moot. We operate as a unit, and resources are spent to maximize the group, all contributors are appreciated. You could charge full price if you want, the money is just going to wind up back in the party pool anyway. Crafters, healers, and buff/debuff characters are always very welcome at the table for the significant benefits they provide. The appreciation is palpable and vocal, without any bookkeeping. That conversation with the rest of the party to prep them, would be something like: Give him time, he doesn't understand yet. . . My recent character is a evangelical cleric who has and is taking some of the crafting feats. The party is going to be pretty annoyed when I go back to being a DM and that character stays home :) (The DM chair tends to be rotated)
Though I disagree with the feeling, and think the appreciation shown any character for their contributions is a fair part of the loot they helped acquire. That the party's chances of surviving and prospering are greatly improved if they play as a team ( it is a cooperative game after all ). But this is reason, and reason rarely satisfies someone who is being emotional. Better at that point to move on, the issue shouldn't come up often enough to be an issue. If any player is feeling unappreciated/unwanted (regardless of if crafter or not), perhaps the attitudes of the other players need some adjusting. A diplomatic side chat with the other players may be in order to game as a group, not a social predator.
3. . . Is pointless. . . as Buri stated a few posts back. . .
Buri wrote:
WBL is a GM tool. Not a player one. This is why it's in the GM section of the book. Players don't care. However, if a crafter begins supplying the party then the GM should theoretically be giving fewer treasure rewards for them to be "on track."
If your DM is paying close attention to WBL and is adjusting party gains accordingly than the crafter will gain Zero long term benefit from charging a fee. Just as the party will gain Zero long term financial benefits for services provided. Regardless of the discount being 30, 40 or 50%. Any short term gain from charging the fee or gaining the discount will be washed away as the adventure continues. The numbers being batted around. . . something about everyone being at 99'ish k instead of 60'ish k, means thats 30'ish k less per party member that the party will be gaining in the dungeon to come. The dragon hoard just got 120,000gp smaller. As such. . . WBL does not support for or against the use of a fee. The in-game psychology of feeling appreciated is a valid argument, WBL is not.
4. . . From a balance standpoint, as long as the crafter Can craft. The crafter will be well rewarded systemically for their investment in the feat(s). Double the equipment value is fantastic, and every character I have which used the crafting feats were WELL rewarded for taking them. Before or Without crafting a thing for the party. Assuming again that crafting is allowed, a fighter who takes Master Craftsman and Craft Arms and Armor will be virtually guaranteed an awesome weapon and armor throughout most of his career, especially at later levels. .. as acquiring +5 and above weapons/armor through normal purchasing channels is anywhere from difficult to impossible. The argument that fee or wasted feat is a false dichotomy, as the selfish crafter (builds only for self) will gain substantial benefits from crafting. The idea that Fee or others are more powerful? A Party Crafter is a buff caster who buffs ahead of time; making the other PCs more powerful is the point, and why the crafter is so appreciated.
If the other players don't see the benefit of a crafter and criticize them for being gimped. . . I want to play a crafter in that game, don't know how else to put it really. Got a friend who would love to join that one. . . Fantasy Grounds? The crafting has such lovely potential for abuse, that if I'm in the mood to make a point I pity that DM. Two words: Craft Construct. Got the Tomb of Horrors? Iron Maiden Golem :) Want to be especially evil, give it the Construct Armor modification from Ultimate Magic then hand it to the fighter as a peace offering. The minute that player looks at you cross-eyed say the word and the dude is dead and a zombie filled construct pet under your command. Gimped? :D
RAW crafter with the time to craft is one of the nastiest things in the game bar-none.
Vedoun
P.S. - Disclaimer: It's a cooperative game, if you're gonna play a crafter remember to play nice ;)
What about the numbers. Are they correct? Have I made an error anywhere?
Do the follow the intent of the FAQ?
the intent of the FAQ is that the crafter have more wealth than the rest of the party. and I think the FAQ says that crafted items count as 1/2 cost when it comes to WBL, and i think that applies to all crafted items, not just for the crafters
Do you agree with the numbers? Are there any errors in them?
sure your math looks fine. but since we differ on our interpretation of the FAQ, we are going to have to agree to disagree
Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
dragonfire8974 wrote:
sure your math looks fine. but since we differ on our interpretation of the FAQ, we are going to have to agree to disagree
With your interpretation, what is the point of someone taking a crafting feat?
If not one takes a feat, everyone will be at the same level of wealth, paying full price.
If there is a crafter, then by your interpretation, everyone will be a the same level of wealth, just calcualted with cost value rather than full price. The GM will likely have to reduce loot to keep the encounters balanced for where the PCs are supposed to be.
It would appear that the crafter lost the benefit of a feat.
Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
VedounMar wrote:
Mistwalker wrote:
2 ->The crafter is willing to cut a huge discount for the team mate, but shouldn't be forced to have their time unrewarded, be unappreciated. . .
3 ->The out-of-character issue is two fold. The first one is WBL. . .
4 ->The second issue is that the crafter ends up having to take one for the team, as they are down at least one feat. . .
2. . . an in game thing. ....a player...
Actually, I was refering to the player character, not the player.
VedounMar wrote:
3. . . Is pointless. . . as Buri stated a few posts back. . .
I disagree. Yes, it is normally a GM tool, but it is not limited to them. Not all GMs are created equal. There are some GMs that run APs, straight up, no changes - so the loot does not get modified in any way - so if the crafter is not getting the FAQ benefit for the crafting feat, why take it at all?
VedounMar wrote:
4. . .The crafter will be well rewarded systemically for their investment in the feat(s). Double the equipment value is fantastic...... Before or Without crafting a thing for the party..... The argument that fee or wasted feat is a false dichotomy, as the selfish crafter (builds only for self) will gain substantial benefits from crafting. The idea that Fee or others are more powerful? ......
If the other players don't see the benefit of a crafter and criticize them for being gimped. . .
If the crafter crafts only for themselves, then yes, the feats are great. The problem is that the free crafter crowd has said that if the crafter won't craft for free for them, they will drop the PC from the group. So it is either craft for the group or leave. If you craft for free, then the crafter has gained no benefit from the feat, as the non-crafters have gained the benefit at no cost to themselves, so the crafter has taken one (or more) for the team.
sure your math looks fine. but since we differ on our interpretation of the FAQ, we are going to have to agree to disagree
With your interpretation, what is the point of someone taking a crafting feat?
If not one takes a feat, everyone will be at the same level of wealth, paying full price.
If there is a crafter, then by your interpretation, everyone will be a the same level of wealth, just calcualted with cost value rather than full price. The GM will likely have to reduce loot to keep the encounters balanced for where the PCs are supposed to be.
It would appear that the crafter lost the benefit of a feat.
with my interpretation of the FAQ, WBL remains the same, crafted items count as their crafted price for wealth calculation. that's still a big benefit to the crafter
now in my games? crafters can craft for whoever they want, whenever they want, which is a bigger benefit
If the crafter crafts only for themselves, then yes, the feats are great. The problem is that the free crafter crowd has said that if the crafter won't craft for free for them, they will drop the PC from the group. So it is either craft for the group or leave. If you craft for free, then the crafter has gained no benefit from the feat, as the non-crafters have gained the benefit at no cost to themselves, so the crafter has taken one (or more) for the team.
the crafter gains no benefit in relation to the rest of the team, but gains a huge benefit
Not sure why this argument is still going on but I think people need to just agree to disagree and file this as a per group decision.
Weren't you the guy who started the "Why all the fighter hate?" thread? You of all people should know why this argument must go on and on and on.
Incidentally, congratulations everyone! Today we've surpassed the "Why all the fighter hate?" thread in terms of number of posts. Keep up the good work, we'll be at 2K posts soon and are still on schedule for 80K posts by Christmas!
Can you point to me where you done your math? Because my math shows it to be a bit different for 20%.
To tell you the truth, your math and approach confused me a bit. Why are you limiting the crafting time to 32 days?
Who is the crafter in the example?
Are you factoring in the Crafting FAQ by SKR?
The last time I posted the math was in post 1573.
post 1573
Gauss's math is likely much more precise, I haven't had the time or inclination to work my way through it.
Because in reality most likely you're going to have a limited amount of down time. In some cases you have very little down time to craft an example is the Red Hand of Doom quest line. Other times your crafting maybe delayed. At first I picked 30 days (or a month) but that gave me non round numbers, so I went with 32 days as it provides each person with exactly 8 days of crafting. Granted for the 11 day I changed it to 33 days to make numbers easier.
Not sure why this argument is still going on but I think people need to just agree to disagree and file this as a per group decision.
Weren't you the guy who started the "Why all the fighter hate?" thread? You of all people should know why this argument must go on and on and on.
Incidentally, congratulations everyone! Today we've surpassed the "Why all the fighter hate?" thread in terms of number of posts. Keep up the good work, we'll be at 2K posts soon and are still on schedule for 80K posts by Christmas!
Hey the fighter can spend two feats and become the crafter. So it's not limited to casters.
Not sure why this argument is still going on but I think people need to just agree to disagree and file this as a per group decision.
Weren't you the guy who started the "Why all the fighter hate?" thread? You of all people should know why this argument must go on and on and on.
Incidentally, congratulations everyone! Today we've surpassed the "Why all the fighter hate?" thread in terms of number of posts. Keep up the good work, we'll be at 2K posts soon and are still on schedule for 80K posts by Christmas!
Apples and Oranges my friend.......Apples...and...Oranges.
Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Suzaku wrote:
Because in reality most likely you're going to have a limited amount of down time. In some cases you have very little down time to craft an example is the Red Hand of Doom quest line. Other times your crafting maybe delayed. At first I picked 30 days (or a month) but that gave me non round numbers, so I went with 32 days as it provides each person with exactly 8 days of crafting. Granted for the 11 day I changed it to 33 days to make numbers easier.
If I recall correctly, this thread was started in reference to the King Maker AP. Some of the other APs also have a fair bit of downtime.
While there may not be much downtime in Red Hand of Doom, likely there would be a fair bit afterwards and perhaps even before the adventure.
Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
dragonfire8974 wrote:
with my interpretation of the FAQ, WBL remains the same, crafted items count as their crafted price for wealth calculation. that's still a big benefit to the crafter
But the crafter sees no benefit from taking any of the crafting feats - the rest of the group does, as they are getting custom and cheap magic items without having to spend a feat - yup, great deal for them, but it seems to be a raw deal for the crafter to me.
dragonfire8974 wrote:
now in my games? crafters can craft for whoever they want, whenever they want, which is a bigger benefit
Not sure why this argument is still going on but I think people need to just agree to disagree and file this as a per group decision.
Weren't you the guy who started the "Why all the fighter hate?" thread? You of all people should know why this argument must go on and on and on.
Incidentally, congratulations everyone! Today we've surpassed the "Why all the fighter hate?" thread in terms of number of posts. Keep up the good work, we'll be at 2K posts soon and are still on schedule for 80K posts by Christmas!
Apples and Oranges my friend.......Apples...and...Oranges.
Apples and oranges play a very similar role in my lunch plans. If I packed an apple for lunch and someone replaced it with an orange while I wasn't paying attention I'd wouldn't realize it at all. Let's look at a post from the Fighter Hate thread:
shallowsoul wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
ATron9000 wrote:
The_Big_Dog wrote:
ATron9000 wrote:
The_Big_Dog wrote:
We just had a whole discussion about this not long ago. Nothing stops your character from taking the charge action while mounted, and directing his mount to charge. Remember, you get a full round of actions regardless of what your mount does. So charge to your hearts content.
that doesn't even make sense. Are you saying you and your mount charge separately? Explain how this works. It clearly states that your mount charges.
No, I'm saying that you direct your mount to charge. Then, as your action(s), you choose to charge. Your mount fulfills the movement requirement and you still get all your bonuses for charging as normal. Note, you still only get one charge bonus.
rules don't say this. Your character obviously directs the mount though since you the player move the horse on the battle grid. The rules do say however that your mount charges. Interpret it however you want so you can do 1000 damage. Doesn't make it right. Charging on your mount is different than on foot. Different language different rules different abilities.
Speaking of different languages let's look at some.
Mighty Charge wrote:
At 11th level, a cavalier learns to make devastating charge attacks while mounted.
So how would this work then? Does the cavalier have to be mounted by someone else to make it work? How can he make charge attacks while mounted if it's the mount making the charge?
Supreme Charge wrote:
At 20th level, whenever the cavalier makes a charge attack while mounted, he deals double the normal amount of damage (or triple if using a lance).
Odd, how is the cavalier making a charge attack if he's mounted? Isn't he unable to do that since it's the mount making the charge?
You know bob's asking some legitimate questions here.
Unseat wrote:
When charging an opponent while mounted and wielding a lance, resolve the attack as normal.
There's that darned language...
You really need to step back and think about something. Notice how the rules of the cav actually spell it out specifically for the class. By your logic the info should be common logic do why the need to spell it out. You're pulling an Ashiel here. Might want to remove those shades because they are impairing your reading comprehension. Also if we follow your logic then you can only move your speed and not that of your mount. You can't cherry pick bits and pieces of the rules.
You were on the "fighter>commoner" side and there was another "fighter=commoner" side. The two sides argued for 1640+ posts. No consensus was ever reached except to let the thread fade away while people argued about more pressing things. Replace those two sides with "Yes to crafting fees" and "No to crafting fees" and you see that apples and oranges aren't so different after all.
with my interpretation of the FAQ, WBL remains the same, crafted items count as their crafted price for wealth calculation. that's still a big benefit to the crafter
But the crafter sees no benefit from taking any of the crafting feats - the rest of the group does, as they are getting custom and cheap magic items without having to spend a feat - yup, great deal for them, but it seems to be a raw deal for the crafter to me.
dragonfire8974 wrote:
now in my games? crafters can craft for whoever they want, whenever they want, which is a bigger benefit
And how is that different from the fee crafters?
Edit: Typo and clarification
lets see if i can address everything
for a team you don't want stronger, then you don't have to craft for them. if you craft for all of them, each can benefit from the crafting feat. but the operative word is can. if you don't like your team, then you can have them buy their stuff from someone else, there's lots of good excuses as to why you can't craft for them.
according to the FAQ, the only benefit your party is supposed to get is the custom items, no WBL benefit. but if you selectively apply the crafted items should be included in WBL at cost, then you can have the math add up anyway you want it to.
your adventuring party being stronger is a benefit for the crafter, not just for the other party members unless there's PvP, because everyone is able to pull more weight. the benefit to the crafter from a stronger party is the ability to take on stronger challenges, thus gaining more wealth and power for him/herself.
fee crafters can do what they want. if its cool with your players, have fun! as long as your gamers like it, then go for it. but it is dipping into the loot, and charging your other characters for using a feat, no matter if it takes up your character's time, like charging people extra for rez or anything else that takes a lot of time. downtime is handwaved anyways. Everyone contributes, and even if crafting is by far the most powerful feat in the game no matter how you interpret it, we don't tend to split loot based on how much someone contributes. unless you support that, which is fine, i just wouldn't play that way.
for a team you don't want stronger, then you don't have to craft for them. if you craft for all of them, each can benefit from the crafting feat. but the operative word is can. if you don't like your team, then you can have them buy their stuff from someone else, there's lots of good excuses as to why you can't craft for them.
according to the FAQ, the only benefit your party is supposed to get is the custom items, no WBL benefit. but if you selectively apply the crafted items should be included in WBL at cost, then you can have the math add up anyway you want it to.
your adventuring party being stronger is a benefit for the crafter, not just for the other party members unless there's PvP, because everyone is able to pull more weight. the benefit to the crafter from a stronger party is the ability to take on stronger challenges, thus gaining more wealth and power for him/herself.
fee crafters can do what they want. if its cool with your players, have fun! as long as your gamers like it, then go for it. but it is dipping into the loot, and charging your other characters for using a feat, no matter if it takes up your character's time, like charging people extra for rez or anything else that takes a lot of time. downtime is handwaved anyways....
I recall being told (not by you necessarily but by members of the anti crafting fee side) that if you don't craft for the party your stealing and are getting the boot immediately or the thief will no longer pick locks and the fighter will scratch his butt while you die.
Actually that's not true about the party strength crafter strength thing in fact the harder the things you fight because of increased party strength the more glaring your relative weakness becomes until you're the mook who follows the party around makes them shinies and flails around crying like a girl in combat.(nothing against girls just using the expression)
Sure is charging people for using a feat but feats have value they should be charged for. If you are the only one getting the benefit you spent the feat slot for the feat that's fair. If you aren't the one taking the feat what did you spend on it? Maybe money if you get a feat equivalent via ioun stones or whatnot or if you have to pay somebody for it(which doesn't matter because it achieves the end goal of equal WBL assuming you follow the FAQ), but having the advantages of the feat is worth something otherwise it wouldn't matter if you had 3 million feats or none.
EDIT: Oh right and from an IC perspective the parties strength =/= your strength, you have no way of knowing if these people will betray you, get dominated, mind controlled, turned to the dark side, become undead, die, etc. The more of your personal power you funnel into them the less likely your own survival becomes in the long run.
I recall being told (not by you necessarily but by members of the anti crafting fee side) that if you don't craft for the party your stealing and are getting the boot immediately or the thief will no longer pick locks and the fighter will scratch his butt while you die.
Actually that's not true about the party strength crafter strength thing in fact the harder the things you fight because of increased party strength the more glaring your relative weakness becomes until you're the mook who follows the party around makes them shinies and flails around crying like a girl in combat.(nothing against girls just using the expression)
Sure is charging people for using a feat but feats have value they should be charged for. If you are the only one getting the benefit you spent the feat slot for the feat that's fair. If you aren't the one taking the feat what did you spend on it? Maybe money if you get a feat equivalent via ioun stones or whatnot or if you have to pay somebody for it(which doesn't matter because it achieves the end goal of equal WBL assuming you follow the FAQ), but having the advantages of the feat is worth something otherwise it wouldn't matter if you had 3 million feats or none.
yeah, I remember all of that "kill the fee crafter" talk. i did it at some point but that was after talking to the player, talking to the GM, and the crafter IG making my character feel cheated. Otherwise i'll enjoy the game
why do you think a stronger party = weaker crafter? I don't get it. I've always played crafters because crafting makes you much stronger. of course taking all the crafting feats does gimp a character, but one or two is fine.
I don't like charging for any feat or ability... it just sets up a bad precedent.
Actually, I was refering to the player character, not the player.
The character can have any personality/motivation you can invent. My Evangelical Cleric of Erastil wouldn't bother charging as he doesn't care about wealth. If in "NPC" mode (when I'm DM'ng) he might need the PCs to tend the farm, or some similar set of chores while he is crafting as the crafting would take away from his responsibilities to the community. A type of fee I suppose, but that only when an NPC. My Cleric of Shar (an old character still around from 2nd edition) will craft for free to members of the faith. . . conversion is a type of fee. Neither of which would engage in markup accounting. So if your invented personality demands fees, you can just as easily invent a personality that doesn't. Unless of course you're moving goalposts again.
Mistwalker wrote:
I disagree. Yes, it is normally a GM tool, but it is not limited to them. Not all GMs are created equal. There are some GMs that run APs, straight up, no changes - so the loot does not get modified in any way - so if the crafter is not getting the FAQ benefit for the crafting feat, why take it at all?
That paragraph is a hodgepodge of "?!". If the GM is ignoring WBL then my statement that WBL is meaningless is even more true. I've maintained since the beginning that DMs which pay attention to WBL negate any point to discounts or fees over the long haul, and that DMs who don't pay attention to WBL make it doubly pointless to bring up. Either way it does nothing to support anyone's position. It is a time waster. Second "?!" with that paragraph is that you go from DM not handing out customized loot (just following the AP) or paying attention to WBL, to "This feat is useless" To be kind that's a non sequitur, when the DM isn't handing out particular gear to the players is when these feats are at their most powerful. If the player adjacent is able to gather however much magical gear he can carry and not have the DM fret over some chart, than what do you think happens to a crafter. . . DM follows an AP and doesn't pay attention to WBL. . . crafter makes awesome; DM frets over WBL. . . crafter makes awesome. Why should someone take the crafting feats: To Make Awesome.
WBL only impairs a crafter if the DM imposes the chart, using the price instead of the cost for the crafting character. Which is the only thing the ruling you pointed to was talking about.
Mistwalker wrote:
If the crafter crafts only for themselves, then yes, the feats are great. The problem is that the free crafter crowd has said that if the crafter won't craft for free for them, they will drop the PC from the group. So it is either craft for the group or leave. If you craft for free, then the crafter has gained no benefit from the feat, as the non-crafters have gained the benefit at no cost to themselves, so the crafter has taken one (or more) for the team.
The feats are great whether you craft only for yourself or for the party. I'd go so far as to say their power becomes greater when applied to the team. But then, that's how buffing works. The more people you buff, the more effective you become.
As to the "Craft for free or get out" comment, you are making two major mistakes with it. One, as someone who is advocating the free position I haven't said anything like that, so the generalization is false and rather insulting. In fact, my previous post specifically said if the player needs to charge in order to feel appreciated then charge and move on. That someone in the past 1600+ posts said something jerky ernestly or in the heat of the moment is not a justification for acting like a jerk. The attitude of "We play my way or I take my toys and go home" is not conducive to an enjoyable gaming experience regardless of your position in this or any other point of contention. I understand you want to charge a fee, okay. I disagree, but if you're at my gaming table the discussion would last less then 5 minutes. There are jerks out there who will get angry and make demands. . . that does not mean that everyone who disagrees with you is a jerk or is making demands.
Your final sentence in that paragraph simply misses how a buff oriented character becomes powerful. The bard's Inspire Courage ability is more powerful in a group with a lot of fighters, then it is in a group primarily made up of casters. Likewise the more a crafter can craft, the more powerful that crafter becomes, not less. By handing a +5 weapon to the fighter when the fighter would normally only have a +3, means that crafter has increased the chance of damage occurring by 10% and the damage done by 2 points. The same as an Inspire Courage adding an additional +2 to hit and damage. The damage output of the crafter as a result goes up the more they craft, not down. That evangelical cleric I mentioned took the animal domain. . . why? To maximize the number of combatants that will benefit from the Inspire Courage, thus Maximizing the power of the character. The Buff oriented character has the potential to be one of the most powerful characters you can design . . . This is because the party becomes an extension of the Buff character. If that isn't the type of character you want to play, that's fine.
My point has no demands involved. My argument is from a simple min-max position. Minimize chance of death, Maximize chance of success. No more, no less. If you want to role-play a party divided and without trust. . . go for it. If you want to play the merc who cares for nothing but an immediate bottom line. . . go for it. It may be the greatest role play experience of your life, but it isn't maximizing the power of your character. If you want to play a crafter, but only craft for yourself. . . go for it. No demands, simply the observation that a buff ability only used to buff one character is weaker than one used to buff two, or three. There is a Bard Archetype which can only use an Inspire Courage like ability on themselves. Speaking of that ability alone, it is substantially weaker than the default Inspire Courage. Why? Because the maximum damage it will ever add is 4 per attack, or 12 per round (more if TWF). The default can add 4 per attack per combatant. That cleric I mentioned will have a Paladin, a Barbarian and an animal companion(tiger) in the party. . . at the end that's up to what? 14 attacks each with +4 damage . . .56 damage?
If you don't understand how the group is more effective operating as a team then I suggest you watch: This. If you don't have the 18 minutes, start at around 9 and go until the super-organism part is done (about 13 minutes in I think). This is not a demand, it's a recommendation based on how best to effectively survive. The party maximizes it's chances if it thinks like a team, works as a unit. The effort you and others have gone to to show your not getting your fair share by buffing without fees, makes it fairly clear you (and likely your group) are not functioning/thinking as a team. Mayhaps you prefer it that way. Okay, that is irrelevant to the point. The point is simple, if you are playing a buff character (crafting or otherwise) and are not buffing, or only buffing yourself then you are not operating at maximum effectiveness. If you are charging party members for the privilege of you getting more powerful, then you are undermining the group cohesion (typically) . . . If your party is good with it, great! Chances are simply bringing it up will undermine the cohesion, thus undermine the chances of success. And the power you are already gaining makes the fee your collecting less than significant. And if you're functioning as a unit the money should be in a pool anyway, thus making the collection even more absurd (as the "fee" would simply wind up back in the party's resource pool). . . a Pool which, for the crafter, quickly becomes your responsibility to oversee anyway, as you are the one who uses it most. Yes, you become the Godfather of the adventuring party, fluffy cat and all ;)
from an IC perspective the parties strength =/= your strength, you have no way of knowing if these people will betray you, get dominated, mind controlled, turned to the dark side, become undead, die, etc. The more of your personal power you funnel into them the less likely your own survival becomes in the long run.
sounds like you're playing a competitive game within the party, which isn't the type where you want the rest of the party to be stronger than you and they can steal. I can have fun with that, but that's not the type of game i wanna play
but if you're cooperative gaming, you can do something to help with those dominates, like a protection from evil spell, or save bonus stuff
So, i have a crafting wizard and we're playing kingmaker, we just hitted lvl 5 and started building the kingdom.
I didn't read all 10 pages of this, but I see a lot of "you don't get charged for a fighter's service!" QQing.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that the wizard in question is also participating in battle and is not simply a craftmonkey. The wizard is not asking to be paid to use crowd control or blasting magic or utility spells, which may have costly material components. He is asking to be paid to craft magical items. This is a different situation entirely.
The mark-up is small and perfectly reasonable for a worshiper of a god of commerce. This is not combat, and really is a good deal all around.
yeah, I remember all of that "kill the fee crafter" talk. i did it at some point but that was after talking to the player, talking to the GM, and the crafter IG making my character feel cheated. Otherwise i'll enjoy the game
why do you think a stronger party = weaker crafter? I don't get it. I've always played crafters because crafting makes you much stronger. of course taking all the crafting feats does gimp a character, but one or two is fine.
I don't like charging for any feat or ability... it just sets up a bad precedent.
A stronger party always fights stronger monsters right? Because the game is boring without a challenge. But assuming 4/5 people have more money and a feat or two and the last guy has more money but no feats he's weaker than the rest and that means he's weaker compared to the enemy assuming the monsters are balanced to fight his friends(which is likely since they're 4/5ths or 3/4ths of the party.
Now if you don't focus on crafting this isn't a huge deal one lost feat usually won't kill you and if you focus on crafting for yourself again no big since the bonuses from better items make up for the lost feat bonuses but the more focus you have and the more crafting you do for others the worse crafting becomes for the crafter from a personal power standpoint because the party gets even stronger while you become even weaker relative to the party and the monsters they face.
I don't really care about charging either way for that matter most of our characters in my current campaign barely like each other and are only together for the money which is split evenly after an adventure in our games now that usually means anyone seriously injured is going to leave you hanging because dead men spend no gold it also means that any gold they make in their free time is theirs and they'll shiv you if you try to take a cut.
Admittedly this isn't how all campaigns work but it's just as valid a setup as the best friends of justice stopping evildoers and should be considered when making a decision on how to treat crafting feats.
yeah, I remember all of that "kill the fee crafter" talk. i did it at some point but that was after talking to the player, talking to the GM, and the crafter IG making my character feel cheated. Otherwise i'll enjoy the game
why do you think a stronger party = weaker crafter? I don't get it. I've always played crafters because crafting makes you much stronger. of course taking all the crafting feats does gimp a character, but one or two is fine.
I don't like charging for any feat or ability... it just sets up a bad precedent.
A stronger party always fights stronger monsters right? Because the game is boring without a challenge. But assuming 4/5 people have more money and a feat or two and the last guy has more money but no feats he's weaker than the rest and that means he's weaker compared to the enemy assuming the monsters are balanced to fight his friends(which is likely since they're 4/5ths or 3/4ths of the party.
Now if you don't focus on crafting this isn't a huge deal one lost feat usually won't kill you and if you focus on crafting for yourself again no big since the bonuses from better items make up for the lost feat bonuses but the more focus you have and the more crafting you do for others the worse crafting becomes for the crafter from a personal power standpoint because the party gets even stronger while you become even weaker relative to the party and the monsters they face.
I don't really care about charging either way for that matter most of our characters in my current campaign barely like each other and are only together for the money which is split evenly after an adventure in our games now that usually means anyone seriously injured is going to leave you hanging because dead men spend no gold it also means that any gold they make in their free time is theirs and they'll shiv you if you try to take a cut.
Admittedly this isn't how all campaigns work but it's just as valid a setup as the best friends of justice stopping evildoers and...
crafters aren't weak. even if they craft for the whole party, they don't end up being weak, at least from my experience. but again, if the GM balances the challenges, then would you rather gain levels faster than slower? as that's what the GM is doing when he rebalances the challenges.
crafters aren't weak. even if they craft for the whole party, they don't end up being weak, at least from my experience. but again, if the GM balances the challenges, then would you rather gain levels faster than slower? as that's what the GM is doing when he rebalances the challenges.
Eh if the DM is rebalencing challenges properly you should not gain levels any faster or slower since the increased challenge is balanced by the increased power of the party members.
I'm actually suprised that your party members would react so negatively at getting such a great deal. Especially considering your character concept. However, my advice is, if they have a problem with it... Ask to retrain the feats, since all they have done is created an uncompensated burden on you by making you their crafting slave.
I agree with this sentiment; in 3.5 crafting hurt as you needed your own XP. Pathfinder has fixed that but it's your time and your effort, you can only create one item at a time.
You aren't their slave; let them sell their loot for store credit etc.. or if you decide to make general party items from your profits that's your own business.
Consider suggesting to the group that you give up the casting feats for Combat feats like Spell Penetration (so you are more effective in combat) etc... or simply don't tell them you have any creation feats at all.
In game - I have never charged for item creation but as a group creation has never been a big part of the game. In Kingmaker my crafter make one item per month etc but the party gold is what keeps us in check - we simply don't have the money to invest in item creation.
I'd be tempted the retrain the feats out publicly to the group to get rid of the party tension and possibly pick them up down the track after they get the pleasure of paying full price for what they want. Or better still let one of them take a crafting feat and you could 'help' perhaps casting the required spell as needed.
Also on WBL; if one sells an item at half cost (say 2,000) and makes a new item at half cost (2,000) where is the disparity? The math is remarkably simple granted it's different if it is starting gold Basically crafting lets you sell the +1 Sword and make something useful in it's place for half it's worth.
Let someone else take the feats and the grief - and go back to running your own character rather than having the party tell you what to do!
If feats aren't important than they're just as unimportant to the rest of the party so they can feel free to get crafting too. I think anyone you ask would tell you that feats are important that they're powerful and that many character concepts would be impossible without them it's a significant investment to take feats particularly if those feats do nothing for you or actually make you weaker and I can't see a reason to take the feats if they aren't going to have any benefit for me.
Also OOC why would I possibly care if I gain levels faster or slower? I play because it's fun with my friends when we hit max level and end the game we'll start a new one again because it's fun so why exactly do I want to end a campaign sooner?
