except GM may wanna target the vulnerable unarmored squishy.
What unarmered squishy? Since nobody was willing to compensate him, he spent all his time crafting stuff for himself. Getting close to a spellcaster is hard enough when they aren't decked out in rings of protection, bracers of armor, amulets of natural armor, and cloaks of resistance.
Have we gotten to the "well I don't need you guys anyway cause I'm a caster so blech!" argument?
Because, you know, the other guys might be casters too. Likely better ones. Because they did not burn all their feats on crafting as seems to be suggested by a lot of people.
You're simply milking the party for cash. Every character for the most part uses all their various skills for the party. Crafting is just one skill you possess and they do not. Any items you make ultimatly benefit you as well as them. Looking at it otherwise is pure greed.
Actually one can concede the point that if the gold in question is being placed towards a fund that benefits the party in making party items (wands of healing, sweet party rides, certain utility items, etc.) I can see an argument for it. However this has rarely been suggested.
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The fighter can choose not to use his feats if he doesn't get paid for them. He will likely die as a result.
But the crafter? He can withhold his services as well, if he isn't properly compensated.
The difference? In the latter example, the crafter doesn't die for not using his abilities. He's busy escaping while the fighter is dying for lack of magic armor.
Or the wizard gets grappled by daemon. And the fighter leaves, because the wizard was too greedy to make him a magic weapon. Works both ways, eh?
I do agree with RD on that.
How loot is distributed and the crafting sit rep is really between the players and their characters.
While the DM does distribute and adjust WBL according to the rules (*cough*), he shouldn't be poking his nose in to enforce/adjust/alter what the PC's decide to do amongst themselves.
that is to say: whether a PC decides to craft for others or not is an issue for the PC's to solve, not something for the DM to avenge or attack someone for.
That of course is just 100% my opinion.
-S
I think an elegant solution is to charge full price, then split the extra money evenly between every member of the party. No one could possibly think they're getting robbed, EVERYONE gets money.You're simply milking the party for cash. Every character for the most part uses all their various skills for the party. Crafting is just one skill you possess and they do not. Any items you make ultimatly benefit you as well as them. Looking at it otherwise is pure greed.
But Everyone gets paid! Not only does the Fighter get a discount on his item, he also get paid every time the cleric gets an item, or the bard, or the rogue.
Crafting items for the benefit of the party is part of a crafter's job within the party. His compensation is a share of the party loot and the party covering his expenses for doing that job.
I've said it before, I'll repeat it now.
Being a crafter doesn't in any shape form or fashion mean that the character gets more than their fair share of the loot. It does not.
But being in the same party as a crafter does entitle the character to more. After all, the Barb got a shiny new axe for half price (2x more than his share.) The Wizard got a big fat nothing.
but you still pay the crafter extra treasure for taking a featBut Everyone gets paid! Not only does the Fighter get a discount on his item, he also get paid every time the cleric gets an item, or the bard, or the rogue.I think an elegant solution is to charge full price, then split the extra money evenly between every member of the party. No one could possibly think they're getting robbed, EVERYONE gets money.You're simply milking the party for cash. Every character for the most part uses all their various skills for the party. Crafting is just one skill you possess and they do not. Any items you make ultimatly benefit you as well as them. Looking at it otherwise is pure greed.
but you're getting that money back whenever anybody crafts.
In a metagaming sense killing his character and dumping him out of the party amount to the same thing.Blah.Interesting now what if we have Cindy Crafter who took craft wonderous items to craft shiny items for herself. Then Bruce the Barbarian walks up and says, "Hey you have craft wonderous items that's awesome you know I could use a new ring of protection +2." ... "Wait you aren't making me this stuff for free? How dare you! I'll rip your head off and poop down your neck!" ... Mmmmkay and does that make sense?uh. probably not? Murdering group members is only slightly worse than stealing from them and calling it a favor.
I can't tell if you were being sarcastic or actually advancing the murder of someone's character as a valid option to a crafting dispute.
-S
I disagree. even if I didn't: they ahve very different IC consequences for the characters.
Leaving him behind, the guy can choose to mend his ways and come back to the group.
Murdering him slides the PC's closer to evil and... well, groups just tend to frown on murdering each other.
At least the groups i've been in.
-S
Crafting items for the benefit of the party is part of a crafter's job within the party. His compensation is a share of the party loot and the party covering his expenses for doing that job.
I believe this is where the argument comes in that he's spending non-adventuring time (i.e. not combat, battleing monsters) but "in town" time crafting crud for others without doing stuff for himself and with no benefit.
I could understand this if it wasn't practically guaranteed that the crafter would then find himself fighting for his life against horrors unknowable. In which case he's getting an extra benefit beyond personal gain in seeing to it that all monsters are murdered that much more efficiently before they perform unspeakable acts on his supple nerdy flesh. Instead it seems the assumption is that the crafter is now a business with a four person market. The four people being the same group he must face unspeakable horrors with.
except a happy coherent party where the barbarian will do favors for the wizard and probably trust him or her moreBut being in the same party as a crafter does entitle the character to more. After all, the Barb got a shiny new axe for half price (2x more than his share.) The Wizard got a big fat nothing.
I've said it before, I'll repeat it now.
Being a crafter doesn't in any shape form or fashion mean that the character gets more than their fair share of the loot. It does not.
And if the Barb tips the Wizzy, he gets a happy Wizard who will cast nice buffs and not resent him.
but you're getting that money back whenever anybody crafts.but you still pay the crafter extra treasure for taking a featBut Everyone gets paid! Not only does the Fighter get a discount on his item, he also get paid every time the cleric gets an item, or the bard, or the rogue.I think an elegant solution is to charge full price, then split the extra money evenly between every member of the party. No one could possibly think they're getting robbed, EVERYONE gets money.You're simply milking the party for cash. Every character for the most part uses all their various skills for the party. Crafting is just one skill you possess and they do not. Any items you make ultimatly benefit you as well as them. Looking at it otherwise is pure greed.except splitting it with the crafter as well
so assuming a party of four, and you pay 10k for a +10 skill item. it takes the crafter 5k, and the other 5k is distributed back to the party
unless the crafter himself also pays the rest of the party when he crafts something, then t would be fair, or if he was out of the redistribution when the item profit would be given back
Why would he pay to use his own feat?
This is just a way for the party to get an equal share back when they ask him to craft instead of buying from an NPC.
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[OSW's daily Interjection]
Hey c'mon guys! Argue for chrissakes! There's only 300 or so new posts since I checked yesterday - in the 24 hours before that there was easily 400! The score is currently 297-263 (four own goals in total).
Some ideas for future tacks: "stealing"; "free"; "parity"; "unfair"; "metagame"; "wrought iron bed"; "allies/buddies"; "choosing feats"; "sacrifice"; "greedy"; "humus layer"; "wealth by level"; "item"; "froghemoth"; "magic shoppe"; "in-game"; "table" and last but not least "stick it to 'em."
Maybe we could just arrange ourselves on either side of an imaginary line and shoot each other with only magic crafted-by-a-crafter-paid-fairly-or-unfairly missile weapons. I want to be on the side who has the most "fair". In game, that is. Oh, and the Easter Bunny gets to be the judge as to what's fair, coz there sure as hell aint no middle ground hereabouts for which side is being shanked - the "hapless tricked into taking crafter feats crafter slave-automoton greedytronic" or the "hapless tricked into saving coin by paying crafter who pockets said coin, in game, greedytronic non crafters". I think.
Give the crafter his coin, be happy you saved some money, and quit whining he's "ahead". I'm beyond happy at the nonsensical level of seriousness and real-world equations, analogies and analysis that appears. Good work folks.
*clink* Here's to reaching 10,000 posts by Christmas. Ennybuddy know a good toymaker? Hey, I know one! Maybe he'll make me one FOR free! Because I'm his buddy.
[Back to your discussion!]
Yes that's true but I did say metagaming and the end result of both of those is essentially that the player no longer gets to play his character because you disagree with him.
I disagree. even if I didn't: they ahve very different IC consequences for the characters.Leaving him behind, the guy can choose to mend his ways and come back to the group.
Murdering him slides the PC's closer to evil and... well, groups just tend to frown on murdering each other.
At least the groups i've been in.-S
Because /the rest of the group/ disagrees with him.
This isn't Selgard the King demanding everyone do what he says or he'll remove them from the group! We're talking about a group dynamic.
The OP asked if he'd done something wrong. *clearly* his group thought so. And they made it known to him.
If they'd thought it was fine there would be no reason for him to have come make this thread.
The group acts as the control to the actions of any given member. When I say "my group" I mean "the group I'm a member of". heck I'm not the leader. We tend to lead by consensus anyway. Even when we, the group, disagree we still discuss it out and come to some decision that the group agrees with.
If someone is going to buck the group and do what they want anyway despite the wishes of the group though, they can't expect the group won't have ways of getting what they- the group- want. Such as leaving that character behind. If the group doesn't trust one of their members that member isn't going to be a member of the group for very long. The same is true if the rogue decides to start stealing items from the group.
If your group is different than that (and quite afew are, if this thread is any indication) then they'll react differently. And i stated in a previous post on this page the possible outcomes for someone against the theft coming into a group where it was allowed, or someone for the theft coming into the group where it wasn't allowed.
The rule that trumps is the rule that the group sets. Not the crafter. Not the sole PC who thinks the crafter is a thief- but the group.
-S
I think this whole thread just shows the issues with the current crafting rules. I'm not advocating going back to 'crafting magic items costs xp', however, the RAW doesn't make sense.
If a PC crafts a magic item (or any item it seems) they only get back the cost of the materials to make it. An NPC, however, can add a 100% mark-up to the cost of the exact same item.
No one seems to protest this issue, though. It's not 'stealing from friends' when Clyde Carpenter charges his neighbor Frank Farmer twice what it cost him to make that plow. Why, then, is it 'stealing from friends' when Wally Wizard charges extra to Rudy Rogue for that +1 dagger?
You want 'stealing from friends'? Try this little scenario: in an old 3.5 game, my husband took the feat that let him sell for 75%. He'd take all the items the group found and sell them, then come back and split 50% of the cost with the group. No PC ever caught on in-game, and no player cared when he told them out-of-game.
After reading this thread, I'm half-way considering banning *all* magic item crafting in my game.
A simpler solution, though would be to Rule 0 the stupid 50% idea and allow for a profit. Used items sell for 50%, newly crafted for 75%+ depending on the market.
Then, when Wally Wizard chooses to make items for his party at only a 10% over cost, he's benefiting the group and himself, while taking a massive cut in what he could have made by selling the same item to an NPC.
I completely agree the basic crafting rules are flawed, the feats give too much benefit compared to other feats and the benefit might be much more in a sandbox campaign.
What I did :
basically give all the feats for free, but crafting an item costs 100% of the marketprice (at the basics at least, see below).
- I allow people to make a little money by crafting magical items selling to npcs, though this will basically be a spellcraft check otherwise using the same rules as the 'day jobs' rule PFS Field Guide in about a week of downtime. I assume double the standard in a 10 day period though.
- any crafting in general uses the same PFS guideline, allowing players to craft items and make some profit in downtime, if you are crafting items rather than generate gold you gain twice this ammount worth of items, one craft check being equal to 10 days worth of work.
* a +1 sword is still finished in 2 days work, provided you have a masterwork sword to start with though a check might indicate that you make 200 gold in 10 days, you get double for the days spent working on the sword (240 gold assuming you sell the rest), though enchanting the sword still costs 2,000 gold, the wizard is free to take longer to have the sword enchanted essentially for free though assuming a roll of 200 gold per 10 days it will take him 5 weeks to generate 2,000 gold worth of magical arms. This would assume something like gathering/preparing all the exotic components himself.
I find with these rules it is perfectly fine for the party members to charge each other for the time spent crafting, the fighter might be able to make suits of fullplate or dragonscale for the party, even supply the wizard with masterwork items to enchant.
* As a houserule I only give away craft feats 4 levels after what is the standard unless it is a bonus feat for your class, so brew potion would typically not be available till lvl 7 unless you are an alchemist, which gets a +1 bonus on the spellcraft check per 2 levels for the crafting of potions.
...I think this whole thread just shows the issues with the current crafting rules. I'm not advocating going back to 'crafting magic items costs xp', however, the RAW doesn't make sense.
If a PC crafts a magic item (or any item it seems) they only get back the cost of the materials to make it. An NPC, however, can add a 100% mark-up to the cost of the exact same item.
No one seems to protest this issue, though. It's not 'stealing from friends' when Clyde Carpenter charges his neighbor Frank Farmer twice what it cost him to make that plow. Why, then, is it 'stealing from friends' when Wally Wizard charges extra to Rudy Rogue for that +1 dagger?
You want 'stealing from friends'? Try this little scenario: in an old 3.5 game, my husband took the feat that let him sell for 75%. He'd take all the items the group found and sell them, then come back and split 50% of the cost with the group. No PC ever caught on in-game, and no player cared when he told them out-of-game.
After reading this thread, I'm half-way considering banning *all* magic item crafting in my game.
A simpler solution, though would be to Rule 0 the stupid 50% idea and allow for a profit. Used items sell for 50%, newly crafted for 75%+ depending on the market.
Then, when Wally Wizard chooses to make items for his party at only a 10% over cost, he's benefiting the group and himself, while taking a massive cut in what he could have made by selling the same item to an NPC.
I completely agree the basic crafting rules are flawed, the feats give too much benefit compared to other feats and the benefit might be much more in a sandbox campaign.
What I did :
basically give all the feats for free, but crafting an item costs 100% of the marketprice (at the basics at least, see below).
- I allow people to make a little money by crafting magical items selling to npcs, though this will basically be a spellcraft check otherwise using the same rules as the 'day jobs'
I don't get it, you mean that you can only find magical items ?
I'd default to just treating it as any other crafting (though crafting itself needs to be fixed), the crafting feats as they are, are a pain in the arse, possibly creating more disparity between casty and non-casty characters and disgruntled players.
Paying the crafter for his feat doesn't work because everyone gets feats, and no one else (apparently) is allowed to charge for them.
If everyone charged for them, the crafters would stop stealing from the party and it'd all go back to status quo.
Paying for the use of their down time doesn't work because they aren't using their down time. They are using group time for group things to accomplish group tasks. If the group is having them craft while the group is out screwing off, then that needs to be addressed.
As long as the crafter is crafting (his own things too) during the time the group is doing group things- charging for that time doesn't fly.
Really: a player charging another player for using any of his feats, skills, or class abilities is just.. out. The group, internally, shouldn't be trying to profit from the group members. There are bad guys for that. The group should be going out and rolling them for coin and goodies not trying to swipe from its own members.
-S
well yeah, if you can only find items, the stuff that you need you can get ahead a bit, but if you don't find things you need, then you need to sell it, but then you could craft what you need and your market value of items doesn't much exceed WBL unless you wanna reduce/increase the treasure
Aside from being strange to never find anything but magical items/equipment eventually most items you find will be up for sale since nobody has use for the bracers of armor +1, armor +1 or swords +1 that dropped from your local drow thugs, items that will be instantly useful become rare compared to the items that are being sold. It might work fine in a computer game though.
I'm going to try some Maths since no one else I've seen has done as much as I would like to see. First, three assumptions:
1)Time is infinite
2)Crafter makes 100% of all gear, magical and mundane, at half cost
3)Crafter charges the 3 other members of his group 5% of the market price as a crafting fee (in this case, 10% of the crafting cost)
So, at any given level, each characters WBL should be X. All 3 non-crafting members, however, have spent 5% of their wealth to the group's crafter, resulting in 95% of X being used for materials in crafting. Half cost items means that, effectively, these 3 party members actually have 190% X in gear on their person. Thus, having a crafter has increased each of their characters effective wealth by 90% with no feat/skill investments of their own.
The crafter starts with 100% X, but the fees from crafting the other party members gives him a net 15% (5% * 3) more wealth, to a total of 115% X. Half cost items means he is now sitting on 230% X worth of gear. This puts his gear at 40% X higher in total value than his teammates, or roughly 121% relative value with comparison to his teammates (2.3 X / 1.9 X).
Now, to actually be able to craft everything the group uses, this requires an investment of 8 feats, if I am not mistaken. Based on the cost of a Dark Blue Rhomboid Ioun Stone, a simple feat (no requirements) can be valued at around 5000g (Slotless items cost double, so 10000g / 2 = 5000g). Crafting feats do not have prerequisites other than a high enough Caster Level, which will raise the value by an indeterminate amount. For simplicity sake, will we use this number as the gold value of a crafting feat. This will result in a minimum profit that must be achieved over the rest of the group for the crafter to have comparable personal power via gear to any other character in the group, who would have feats instead of this extra gold. The actual amount would likely be higher.
NOTE: I do not actually believe feats can be given a equivalent gold value. I do not think that a character should ever be allowed to simply pay enough gold to gain a new feat. This is simply to see if the crafter will be "as effective" as his teammates who are also benefiting directly from his crafting feat investment as well their own personal feat investment while the crafter is only benefiting from his own feats.
So, 8 feats at 5000g each puts the crafter 40000g behind his teammates. This means that at any given level, the crafter needs 40% X = 40000+ gold in order for his feat investments towards the party to be "paid for" with respect to other party members. 40% X can be summarized as:
2 - 400g
3 - 1200g
4 - 2400g
5 - 4200g
6 - 6400g
7 - 9400g
8 - 13200g
9 - 18400g
10 - 24800g
11 - 32800g
12 - 43200g
13 - 56000g
14 - 74000g
15 - 96000g
16 - 126000g
17 - 164000g
18 - 212000g
19 - 274000g
20 - 352000g
From this, it can be seen that there could be significant power creep in favor of the crafter over the rest of the group starting at level 12 at the earliest, when the feats have been fully paid for, assuming items can actually compare to feats at this value. Increasing the value of a feat to 10000g (since they are actually slotless when taken through level advancement), power creep could begin at roughly level 15.
Unfortunately, this doesn't take into account the value of time investments or gear the crafter didn't make, whether it be from obtaining it prior to being able to craft it or it not actually being crafted at half market value. The best it can do is show the best case treasure disparity between a crafter who charges a fee and and the party members who pay it. In either case, these 8 feats will at least theoretically increase the crafter's wealth by 130% while increasing that of all his teammates by 90%
I would love to read the entirety of this thread but since it has doubled in size in just two days I cannot catch up. However, here is my take on the issue:
A) Craft feats are roughly equal in power to any 'combat feat' so the argument that a crafter is taking a downtime feat and not a combat feat is incorrect in my opinion. Example: Craft Arms and Armor allows someone to make a magic item sooner or cheaper than they would otherwise have access to it. +2 sword price = 8000 while a crafted +3 sword cost = 9000.
B) If the DM or party shorts the crafter on gp because the crafter is using it to make alot of items the DM might as well tell the player to dump the craft feat and purchase those items anyhow with a full share. According to the book PCs are designed to have a certain GP amount at each level and crafted items are supposed to count as thier crafted cost not purchased cost.
C) The biggest problem with a crafter mass producing items for a group is that the group winds up with a much higher power curve than they should have. While the crafter benefits from the feat a bit (see A above) the other members of the group count as if having the feat too. This becomes imbalancing.
As a result it is my intent in any campaign where there is an large amount of time for crafting that any crafting I do for other players will include a donation equal to half the price of the item that will go to a good cause. This will reduce the power curve that the DM would have to counter. That counter will imo result in either less GP handed out (which again, screws the crafter) or in higher CR battles.
I saw this problem as soon as EXP was taken out of the equation but I figured in most cases the time problem will take care of it. APs like Kingmaker throw the time problem out the window.
Sorry for the post size. - Gauss
Regarding Craft benefits in a non-sandbox game. Any game where time is a factor limits crafting to 2hours an adventuring day. Assuming players get a couple of weeks off from time to time they are still unable to craft everything they want to by level 10 let alone level 15. A requirement of 8 hours per 2,000gp (assuming a +5 DC increase) is just too slow to craft a 20,000gp item doing two hours per adventuring day. With 14days of downtime they could complete that and 8000gp of something else. Not that extreme imo.
Some people have mentioned that you could increase the hours of crafting per day. By the book max crafting in an adventuring day is 4 hours (2 count) and 8 hours (all 8 count) in a non-adventuring day.
In a time unlimited sandbox yes, crafting winds up broken pretty quickly.
- Gauss
dragonfire8974: 1 day = 1000gp. If you are making a 2000gp that is normally 2 days = 2000gp. When halving the time you are making a 2000gp item in 1 day...thus 1day = 2000gp when halving the time. My statement is just a different way of looking at it. - Gauss
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It becomes an issue with groups like this because they feel the WBL balance sliding towards crafters when the crafter starts charging fees on them. Whether it's logical from an character or rp standpoint is irrelevant, they now see it as an end-sum game where you're "winning" and they're "losing".
"We are losing against other players"
It that is the reason, it is a horrible reason. But probably it is the reason, as there is plenty of people that feel that everything should be perfectly balanced and start crying and raging if they feel that they aren't as powerful as all other character.
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Consider this: by crafting an item rather than having them pay for it you allow the group to take advantage of the half cost advantage.You're forgetting the biggest advantage of all - custom ordering. The Fighter wants X item, but rolls poorly when looking for one. Sorry, there are none available, but you can try next month. Okay, so he goes to the party crafter instead. That is a huge advantage all by itself.
Tacking on 10% doesn't seem so egregious.
Heh... as I said, you try this in my party and you'll be paying for your heals. The unspoken agreement among party members is that you are all in this together, not profiting from each other. If you want to profit from me because you took a feat, then I will have no problem deciding what benefits you get from me that you will have to pay for yourself.
Tit for tat. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
You could have taken another combat feat and improved your combat effectiveness. You chose instead to take a feat that supposedly benefitted the group in a different way. Now you want to charge me for it?
Bullcrap.
So, the wizard must work 8 hours/day for free for the fighter sword.
Fine.But the the fighter has the obligation to stand guard 8 hours/day outside the wizard shop. For free.
And the cleric has to cast his spells at the wizard request even when not adventuring.
"I will really benefit from getting guidance cast on me every minute while crafting. You don't mind staying in my shop 8 hour every day, right?"
Crafting occasionally something for cost is a thing, pretending that the crafter work for cost for months (or years, if you sum up all the time spent in a campaign) is unreasonable, as it would be unreasonable to ask the fighter to do guard duty to the wizard shop for free, the cleric to cast create food for the fighter extended family and livestock on a regular basis and so on.
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actually it says crafted items counts as 1/2 for the purposes of WBL.True, the Faq isn't written in legalese.
But it clearly intends crafters should have more gear, stating if a crafter were to "[have] the same gear value as a non-crafting character" it would "[neutralize] any advantage of having [the crafting] feat at all."
No it wouldn't.
Sometimes, it is easier to buy stuff than to craft it. Sometimes it is easier to craft it than to buy it. Having the feat gives you a choice.
You might not think that is worth a feat. That's a matter of opinion, but I'm sure we can all think of other useless (or useless apart from in very specific circumstances) feats that appear in Pathfinder.
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I have actually learned a lot from this thread.
Most of us came into this thread with unspoken assumptions - "some people force crafter PCs to make items for the rest of the party for nothing", "people who take crafting feats expecting to be able to charge the party a fee are thieves and profiteers" etc. and a lot of the arguments turn out to be much more reasonable when you get a bit more detail.
There are also those who think two wrongs make a right - "take 50 gp of my hard earned loot and I'll either murder you right now, or betray you when you need me most". I'll happily play with a group where crafters charge, and I'll happily play in a group where crafters don't charge, but I ain't playing with that bunch.
However, the main thing I have learned is that the entire argument is moot. Since by the RAW PCs can only sell items at half price, and by the RAW PCs can only buy items at full price, PCs are unable to sell items to other PCs as that would result in breaking one (or both) of those rules.
