Hello,
Does a Master of Many Styles need to meet the requirements for the Elemental Fist feat? Here's the exact wording I found:
"Bonus Feat: At 1st level, 2nd level, and every four levels thereafter, a master of many styles may select a bonus style feat or the Elemental Fist feat. He does not have to meet the prerequisites of that feat, except the Elemental Fist feat."
I'm not sure if they're referring to the fact that you need to have Elemental Fist and that's it for the other style feats, or if they're saying you don't need any prereq's for Style feats, but you do need prereq's for Elemental Fist.
I have a PC who is playing a Summoner (Synthesist) 3/Monk 2, and he was doing 6 attacks last night (extra limbs), with unarmed strikes, doing electrical damage and adding Strength and Wisdom damage to each one. Considering the damage he did in one round, he outshone everyone at the table, and I thought there could be something wrong about it.
My reading of the text suggests that you do indeed need to meet the prerequisites for the elemental fist.
More interestingly, I would like to know how he is adding both strength and wisdom to his damage and getting 6 attacks.
The intent was the first (you need EF for the style feat that require it) but is badly written and a litteral interpretation suggest that you don't need any prerequisite for styles feat, but you need them for EF. If your master is not a lawyer, i strongly suggest going for the first one even if is not RAW.
Mortavius wrote: Does a Master of Many Styles need to meet the requirements for the Elemental Fist feat? It could be read either way.
I think the intent is for a style feat that requires Elemental Fist, you do in fact need to have Elemental Fist in order to take it.
Djinni Style, for example, wouldn't make much sense if you didn't have Elemental Fist.
Mortavius wrote: I have a PC who is playing a Summoner (Synthesist) 3/Monk 2, and he was doing 6 attacks last night (extra limbs), with unarmed strikes, doing electrical damage and adding Strength and Wisdom damage to each one. Considering the damage he did in one round, he outshone everyone at the table, and I thought there could be something wrong about it. I'm not really familiar with the synthesist, but this stands out:
Fused Eidolon: "The synthesist is still limited to the eidolon's maximum number of natural attacks."
Which, for a 3rd-level summoner should be 3 maximum natural attacks.
If you're using unarmed strikes, then those are not natural attacks, so the number of limbs do not matter, and your maximum attacks are determined by BAB. With BAB of +4 (+5 flurry) you're at a maximum of two attacks if using Two-Weapon Fighting or Flurry of Blows.
If you're mixing natural attacks and unarmed strikes, you'll need a different limb for each, and you can't use flurry. That means a total of 5 attacks (2 from TWF, 3 from tentacles or bites or foot-claws or whatever).
Note that Master of Many Styles replaces flurry of blows. So, he might not even have that option at all.
I'd need to see the build to pick it apart...
anyway, answers
I don't see it as being read either way
MoMS Bonus Feat wrote: At 1st level, 2nd level, and every four levels thereafter, a master of many styles may select a bonus style feat or the Elemental Fist feat. He does not have to meet the prerequisites of that feat, except the Elemental Fist feat. Alternatively, a master of many styles may choose a feat in that style’s feat path (such as Earth Child Topple) as one of these bonus feats if he already has the appropriate style feat (such as Earth Child Style). The master of many styles does not need to meet any other prerequisite of the feat in the style’s feat path. You have to meat the prerequisites for Elemental Fist per this text.
Further, I see no huge issue allowing the genie styles et al. to be taken without Elem Fist as a prereq because they do you no good without taking it first.(They only give you bonuses to your elemental fist effectively)
As a note Dragon Ferocity has a special that allows you to qualify for Elemental Fist without any other prereqs.
Quote: I have a PC who is playing a Summoner (Synthesist) 3/Monk 2, and he was doing 6 attacks last night (extra limbs), with unarmed strikes, doing electrical damage and adding Strength and Wisdom damage to each one. Considering the damage he did in one round, he outshone everyone at the table, and I thought there could be something wrong about it. Most of these things have been gone over already, but I will recap
-He has 3 max NATURAL attacks
However, "Limbs(Arms)" should allow for additional MANUFACTURED attacks because each arm of an eidolon can wield a weapon.
So here's where it gets tricky. (without knowing what evos he has)
Issue 1: unarmed strike, can you use it as both weapons when two weapon fighting? (Unarmed Strike is a manufactured weapon, and it breaks some of the rules other weapons have because it can also be kicks/headbutts)
some people say yes, others no (for various reasons, I'm sure there's a number of threads already)
If your answer is yes, can it be used for Multiweapon Fighting (and if "no", why not? because it operates exactly like TWF except it assumes/requires more arms)
Issue 2: Is he following all the rules for mixing Natural and Manufactured attacks? UMR Natural Attacks
Issue 3: How many attacks does he actually have? AND what are their attack bonuses?
Should I assume biped? that's 4 arms (2 legs) from what I can tell. Is that also 2 claws 1 bite? (actually I suspect the routine was 4 claws/2 kicks which is wrong)
Anyway, using what I assume, you could have kick/kick/punch/punch /claw/claw/bite
estimating a BAB of 4(?)
WITHOUT TWF/MWF -2/-6/-6/-6 /-1/-1/-1
WITH TWF/MWF 2/2/2/2 /-1/-1/-1
STRENGTH modifiers on each attack 1x/1x/1x/1x /.5x/.5x/.5x (this is generous based on a monks unarmed strikes having "no offhand")
Issue 4: Elemental Fist A)has uses per day B)can only apply to 1 attack per round
Further, for your genie style, you ONLY get the bonus wisdom damage on the attack that is ALSO an Elem Fist.
If the Energy Attacks evo is in play, it *probably* should not apply to his manufactured unarmed strikes... (and it certainly wouldn't be getting the wisdom bonus to damage)
Anyway, the simplest way to shut this down would be to declare unarmed strike a SINGLE weapon which cannot be used as both weapons during TWF, that would limit him to only his standard iterative attacks with UAS. (but it would still allow him to wield other weapons for use with TWF)
If you'd like more feedback, please post the full build.
Archaeik wrote: However, "Limbs(Arms)" should allow for additional MANUFACTURED attacks because each arm of an eidolon can wield a weapon. Extra arms do not grant extra iterative attacks.
Iterative attacks are based solely on BAB (and extras like TWF, haste, etc.).
With a BAB of +4 he can only make two attacks per round with unarmed strikes or manufactured weapons, assuming he's using TWF. If he's not using TWF, he gets one attack per round with unarmed strike or manufactured weapons.
Even if he's got six arms, and each arm is wielding a sword, he can still only attack with any of those swords twice.
Eidolons break the normal rules.
I'll grant that it's reasonable to require the eidolon to take MWF before getting any additional extra attacks, but a 4 armed eidolon certainly qualifies.
Edit: further, a Summoner who takes limbs(arms) as his aspect @lvl 10 also qualifies.
There is no restriction on eidolon/evolution arms (unlike alchemists)
Archaeik wrote: Eidolons break the normal rules. Only when they specifically say so.
Archaeik wrote: I'll grant that it's reasonable to require the eidolon to take MWF before getting any additional extra attacks, but a 4 armed eidolon certainly qualifies. The Multiweapon Fighting feat does not grant any extra attacks. It is just like the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, all it does is reduce penalties.
A level 1 summoner's eidolon with four arms, and each arm wielding a sword, cannot attack with swords four times.
Archaeik wrote: Edit: further, a Summoner who takes limbs(arms) as his aspect @lvl 10 also qualifies.
There is no restriction on eidolon/evolution arms (unlike alchemists)
Qualifies for what? The restriction we're talking about is not on the number of arms, it's on the number of attacks.
The arms DO grant extra attacks, I have never seen anyone argue this point before now.
I'll give you that it is NOT DEFINED how multiple arms affect the number of attacks, BUT nearly all the examples in the Bestiary suggest that they do.
Do you have a source on this?
Edit:
Limbs wrote: The eidolon does not gain any additional natural attacks for an additional pair of arms, but it can take other evolutions that add additional attacks (such as claws or a slam). Arms that have hands can be used to wield weapons, if the eidolon is proficient. To me that implies "attack with" also.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Technically Grick is right in that multi-weapon fighting does not grant any extra attacks. Its the same with TWF, it doesn't grant an additional attack, it just reduces penalties.
At first level, eidolon with 4 arms, each holding a sword, can make 4 attacks, with or without the multi-weapon fighting feat. Without the feat he suffers terrible penalties, with the feat those penalties are reduced.
Right, and I never said, nor implied that MWF is what gave the attacks (only that for balance purposes it is not a bad houserule to require PCs to have the feat before granting the attacks you do have from the arms -- and they would get it automatically if they had already grabbed TWF prior to getting said arms)
Either way, it's not a good idea to MWF without the feat.
ShadowcatX wrote: At first level, eidolon with 4 arms, each holding a sword So, at level one, a human fighter could attack with a rapier, a dagger, and an unarmed strike (kick)? No. Because extra limbs don't grant extra attacks.
AFAIK it's only arms that grant extra attacks.
For your scenario you are correct, only 2 attacks because you have only 1 offhand.
New arms also grant more offhands.
Edit: or rather I should say "arms, or anything that functions like arms" because I'd feel it's roughly the same for any creature with tentacles specifically called out as being dextrous enough to wield weapons or whatever
Anyway, there's a good reason people complain about eidolons/synthesists
Archaeik wrote: AFAIK it's only arms that grant extra attacks. Do you have any evidence to support this?
Only the evidence in the bestiary for many armed monsters (It's certainly not Multiweapon Mastery that's granting those attacks)
And countless threads of eidolon builds where no one has corrected MWF
If you feel it needs to be FAQ'd then by all means...
Note that MWF replaces TWF "for creatures with more than two arms." Take that how you will, but it sounds like it is assumed that you will get extra attacks as long as you have more than two arms, and that MWF will improve those attacks in place of TWF.
Archaeik wrote: Only the evidence in the bestiary for many armed monsters Name one.
The Xill has four arms, but he can only make three short sword attacks (Two main hand from high BAB (+9), one off-hand from two weapon fighting).
However, I would point out that don't believe
A)I/G TWF was ever designed/intended to grant attacks to more than 1 offhand
B)By swapping to MWF, you may not even qualify for I/G TWF
Monsters like the Marilith, who could certain use I/G TWF pretty well don't have them from their entry. So either it's never intended, or totally up to the GM
Marilith
6 arms, 6 swords
Vrolikai
4 arm, 4 knives
Lhaksharut
Looks like 4 arms with 3 weapons
Archaeik wrote: AFAIK it's only arms that grant extra attacks.
For your scenario you are correct, only 2 attacks because you have only 1 offhand.
New arms also grant more offhands.
Edit: or rather I should say "arms, or anything that functions like arms" because I'd feel it's roughly the same for any creature with tentacles specifically called out as being dextrous enough to wield weapons or whatever
Anyway, there's a good reason people complain about eidolons/synthesists
No, they Don't. Grick is absolutely right here and it doesn't matter how many extra limbs you have you only get 1 additional off-hand attack while TWF.
If you'll check this post from SKR in regards to vestigial arms he explicitly states that.
extra arms
SKR wrote: For example, a normal character can use twf to attack with a manufactured weapon in one hand and one unarmed strike, whether that's a punch, kick, or headbutt. He doesn't get multiple extra unarmed strikes per round just because he has an arm, two legs, and a head free. Therefore, you don't get any extra attacks just because you now have a vestigial arm, or two vestigial arms. You're still limited by the normal limitations of the attack sequence.
Archaeik wrote: Monsters like the Marilith Ah, that's the one I was looking for.
Demon, Marilith has six arms and six longsword attacks.
So either the Marilith breaks the rules (without a special ability to say why) or I'm wrong.
Technically it does have a special ability that affects its multiple attacks, though it doesn't say it grants them those attacks. Multiweapon Mastery wrote: A marilith never takes penalties to her attack roll when fighting with multiple weapons.
An eidolons arms are not "vestigial", I don't see the relevance.
Everything I've seen on the matter suggests you gain additional offhands for having more arms.
I can almost guarantee there are a slew of PFS eidolons that utilize MWF
and I added monsters to my earlier post.
|
19 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
For FAQing purposes:
Can a creature with more than two hands attack with a weapon in each hand using the Two-Weapon Fighting rules, by having one main hand and multiple off-hands? (Ex: Marilith, Vrolikai, Lhaksharut, Eidolon)
If so, do non-hand-based weapons also apply? (Spiked Armor, boot blade, barbazu beard, improved unarmed strike)
Non hand based weapons still utilize an "offhand" slot from everything I've seen.
The question is really, do I get additional offhands from additional arms? (specifically those from the Limbs(Arms) evolution)
Edit:
Btw, doing a quick once over of the sample eidolon builds, I did NOT see one that suggested it should use MWF similar to say the Marilith. So I'll say that's a point in your favor. Eh, it's a question that should have been resolved awhile ago...
Archaeik wrote: An eidolons arms are not "vestigial", I don't see the relevance.
Everything I've seen on the matter suggests you gain additional offhands for having more arms.
I can almost guarantee there are a slew of PFS eidolons that utilize MWF
and I added monsters to my earlier post.
Which is why I didn't highlight those comments. This is dev clarification of Gricks last point.
Just because you can make an unarmed strike with any body part (kicks, punches, headbutts etc) doesn't mean you can make more attacks because you have more body parts free.
Quote: He doesn't get multiple extra unarmed strikes per round just because he has an arm, two legs, and a head free. If you're trying to use actual weapons in your off-hands then:
Two-Weapon Fighting wrote:
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. As the TWF rules from the core book state you only get an additional attack for your SECOND weapon, not for each additional weapon you are wielding. Only the second weapon gets the extra attack.
Multi-weapon fighting is the exception and specifically states you can get additional attacks because of multiple arms and treats those arms as off-hands BUT that is an beastiary feat and requires DM approval to take so YMMV on whether you can have it. (beastiary is a GM only book and isn't open for players use without GM approval).
Quote: Just because you can make an unarmed strike with any body part (kicks, punches, headbutts etc) doesn't mean you can make more attacks because you have more body parts free. I never said it did, but it does free up your hands to hold claws while you kick for extra cheese.
Why not just specify the claws are on your feet to begin with as I've seen other people do? (I don't endorse this concept)
Archaeik wrote: Quote: Just because you can make an unarmed strike with any body part (kicks, punches, headbutts etc) doesn't mean you can make more attacks because you have more body parts free. I never said it did, but it does free up your hands to hold claws while you kick for extra cheese. Yes those extra arms can hold claws (or weapons) but it will only get the same number of attacks as it's Bab will let it have, in this case it maxes out at 5. 2 Kicks at Bab -2 and 3 claws at Bab -5 (and half str bonus to damage).
If he has 50 arms wielding 50 +5 vorpal blades at this level he'll still only get that same 5 attacks per full attack action.
I'm glad this has generated so much discussion; I'll try and elaborate more on what the character has. Note, I don't have his sheet (he took it home yesterday), so I'm going off memory and what he said.
As mentioned, he's Summoner (Synthesist)3/Monk2. He was originally doing 9 attacks per round. Half way through the session, I saw the FAQ on Synthesists where Sean says that the Eidolon is a suit, and he doesn't automatically get four arms for choosing biped. So that locked him down to 7 attacks per round; two with his normal arms, and he took the extra limbs evolution twice, so he has six limbs. He was also flurrying.
I know that he took Master of Many Styles, which I found out after the game last night, that makes him lose Flurry, so he should be down to 6 attacks per round.
In one round, he was able to full attack a manticore for over 120+ damage. Now, he had cast corrosive touch and lesser evolution surge (extra limbs) beforehand, but that still seems completely unreasonable for that level of character. Note, when he did the attack, he did only apply corrosive touch to a single attack.
He was using the Djinni style feats, and I think he read that he didn't need Elemental Fist requirements; that he could take it as a bonus feat at 1st level (which according to the requirements for that feat, is impossible).
His damage was 1d6 from his fist, plus Str (which is high, because he's fused with his Eidolon), plus 1d6 for elemental fist, plus wisdom bonus (which is high, because he's a summoner, and being a synthesist, he essentially only has to focus on three stats) for Djinni style. I can see looking at the feats that he has been doing some stuff wrong; Elemental Fist can only be used 2/day, or 3/day with Djinni style.
His justification is that his eidolon doesn't use natural attacks, it uses his monk unarmed strike damage. Thus, this allows Multiweapon Fighting to relieve the penalties for the attacks, since unarmed strike counts as a weapon.
Although, it does say under the unarmed attack entry for the Monk:
"At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed."
Does this mean that no matter how many limbs he has, he is limited by his BAB? It seems to me that FoB is meant to simulate attacking with more than one limb...but what about creatures with more than two limbs?
Also, on the original subject of elemental fist, it says this for requirements of Djinni style:
"Con 13, Wis 15, Elemental Fist, baseattack bonus +9 or monk level 5th"
Now, I understand that the archetype allows for the PC to take this feat without it's requirements. BUT, what is that last bit about "or monk level 5th?" A normal single class Monk could not take the prereq of Elemental Fist till at least 11th level, because that's when he gets BAB +8. So are they saying you need the prereqs for Djinni style OR you can be a 5th level Monk and ignore them? Still seems weird...
Again, I appreciate greatly all the feedback this has garnered.
Quote: If he has 50 arms wielding 50 +5 vorpal blades at this level he'll still only get that same 5 attacks per full attack action. I don't think that was ever the case, or the intention.
Didn't this come up in playtesting??
Quote: Why not just specify the claws are on your feet to begin with as I've seen other people do? (I don't endorse this concept) Sure, you'd still get all your attacks by RAW.
Quote: Does this mean that no matter how many limbs he has, he is limited by his BAB? It seems to me that FoB is meant to simulate attacking with more than one limb...but what about creatures with more than two limbs?
Also, on the original subject of elemental fist, it says this for requirements of Djinni style:
"Con 13, Wis 15, Elemental Fist, baseattack bonus +9 or monk level 5th"
FoB itself is currently under review.
As written, yes it limits your number of attacks to what it states.
FoB was written under the assumption of a 2 armed PC. It is not well defined what interaction there should be with more limbs.
(FoB will not be an issue for you)
Monk level 5 - if nothing else can account for this, Monk of the Four Winds archetype exchanges Stunning Fist for Elemental Fist, so they do qualify that early.
Further, MoMS only ignores prerequisites for BONUS FEATS so they could qualify earlier using a regular feat slot too (because it is BAB 9 OR Monk 5)
Mortavius wrote: Stuff
Yes, it means that he is limited to his Bab for number of attacks per round he's getting. In this case that number is... 1 attack per round (he gave up Flurry when he took MoMS so he doesn't get the 2nd attack monks usually get).
He COULD attempt to TWF but since he no longer has flurry he'd suffer the usual penalties for doing so (in this case -4/-8 (yes he is flagged as not having an off-hand but without either flurry or TWF feat he sucks up the penalty for not having the feat).
Okay, so theoretically, the PC could get his Monk up to level 5 and get Djinni style, but it would be useless, as he doesn't yet qualify for Elemental Fist, right?
Also, he has multiweapon fighting, so even without flurrying, his justification is he attacks once with each limb, with penalties (-2 I believe). Does that sound right?
You could get Elem Fist quite early
Monk 1 Dragon Style(MoMS) / Anything(normal)
Monk 2 Dragon Ferocity(MoMS)
Monk 3 Elemental Fist (normal)
Monk 5 Djinni Style (normal)
Quote: Also, he has multiweapon fighting, so even without flurrying, his justification is he attacks once with each limb, with penalties (-2 I believe). Does that sound right? This is what we've been discussing, and there's quite the split of opinion
I say yes fwiw.
Also, on the original subject of elemental fist, it says this for requirements of Djinni style:
"Con 13, Wis 15, Elemental Fist, baseattack bonus +9 or monk level 5th"
A fighter or rogue, wizard or whatever would need Con 13, Wis 15, the Feat Elemental Fists (and must meet all requirements for that too) and have a BAB of +9.
A Monk can select the feat at lvl 5
Okay, I understand what you're saying; that means that a Monk could take Djinni style at level 5 before he gets Elemental Fist. Of course, it would be useless, since Djinni style doesn't have any effect without Elemental Fist. That's what I was meaning seems a little weird. It's only a few select ways of building that it seems it could be useful at that low of a level, and they all revolve around getting Elemental Fist without have to pay it's prereqs.
Well, actually, no
I MoMS could get Djinni at level 1,2,6,etc as a bonus feat without having to meet the prereq of Elem Fist, but it's pointless
To take it as a normal feat from gaining HD, he would still need the appropriate prereqs
And to the above, also no
it's "BAB 9 OR Monk 5" as the last part of the list
a standard Monk still has to fulfill the other requirements including Elem Fist to take it
Mucronis wrote: Also, on the original subject of elemental fist, it says this for requirements of Djinni style:
"Con 13, Wis 15, Elemental Fist, baseattack bonus +9 or monk level 5th"
A fighter or rogue, wizard or whatever would need Con 13, Wis 15, the Feat Elemental Fists (and must meet all requirements for that too) and have a BAB of +9.
A Monk can select the feat at lvl 5
This is incorrect. The breakdown of commas is to be used as and.
Con 13 AND Wis 15 AND Elemental Fist AND BAB+9 OR Monk Level 5.
So, for a fighter the requirements to be met would be: Con 13 AND Wis 15 AND Elemental Fist AND BAB+9
For a monk, the requirements to be met would be: Con 13 AND Wis 15 AND Elemental Fist AND Monk Level 5.
Unsure why this has stuck in my craw the way it has, but I submit this for consideration:
Does not the Alchemist Vestigial Arm text indicate that without its explicit restriction, said arm would grant you an extra attack per round?
I'm under the assumption that yes, extra hands (attached to separate arms -- let's not be silly here) supply extra offhands...
This may not always be the case, but it certainly seems like the rule.
Afterall, MWF exists, and its requirement is "3 or more hands".
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Archaeik wrote: I'm under the assumption that yes, extra hands (attached to separate arms -- let's not be silly here) supply extra offhands... The rules were written with the assumption of normalcy. They assume you're a bipedal humanoid with two legs, two hands, one head. There was not really previously a way to get more arms, so the rules didn't address it.
The monster feats are for monsters, which don't always have to follow the rules. I think they just looked at a six-armed monster and figured it should attack with all six swords, and made it happen.
The summoner (and especially the synthesist) breaks all sorts of assumptions, and what was formerly an extreme corner case becomes something we see at 1st level PFS scenarios with no real guidance on how to handle it.
You can see by the vehemence with which we argued this that most people try to use the existing normal rules as much as possible, but sometimes it just doesn't work and the DM has to make a call. (Expect table variation) It would be really nice for a thread or blog post or something about these issues. (maybe after they address touch attacks, stealth, and scorpion whips ;)
For what its worth, it makes more sense to me that the meaning of the "except elemental fist" part is that you need that prerequisite for the style feats,, not that you need the prerequisites for elemental fist as that is far more logical to me than the other option. It would be dumb, in my mind, to allow people to take style feats that let them do nothing, while restricting the prerequisite for letting them work.
Sah wrote: For what its worth, it makes more sense to me that the meaning of the "except elemental fist" part is that you need that prerequisite for the style feats,, not that you need the prerequisites for elemental fist as that is far more logical to me than the other option. It would be dumb, in my mind, to allow people to take style feats that let them do nothing, while restricting the prerequisite for letting them work. They're only hurting themselves by taking feats they can't use. (nothing wrong with that. As a DM, certainly, you'd advise them against it, but meh)
It is at best gray whether Elem Fist is required for Style feats that use it. The best support of this position is that Unarmed Fighters can select any Style feat, but still need Elem Fist if it is also a prereq.
But you are wrong about MoMS and Elem Fist, they do indeed need to meet the prereqs. If you choose the run it differently, that's fine.
Grick wrote: Archaeik wrote: I'm under the assumption that yes, extra hands (attached to separate arms -- let's not be silly here) supply extra offhands... The rules were written with the assumption of normalcy. They assume you're a bipedal humanoid with two legs, two hands, one head. There was not really previously a way to get more arms, so the rules didn't address it.
The monster feats are for monsters, which don't always have to follow the rules. I think they just looked at a six-armed monster and figured it should attack with all six swords, and made it happen.
The summoner (and especially the synthesist) breaks all sorts of assumptions, and what was formerly an extreme corner case becomes something we see at 1st level PFS scenarios with no real guidance on how to handle it.
You can see by the vehemence with which we argued this that most people try to use the existing normal rules as much as possible, but sometimes it just doesn't work and the DM has to make a call. (Expect table variation) It would be really nice for a thread or blog post or something about these issues. (maybe after they address touch attacks, stealth, and scorpion whips ;)
And I do appreciate the arguments made. I just hadn't seen anyone object before.
I can see the position of "monsters break the rules"... but I'm also a big proponent of "monsters shouldn't be 'special'".
I don't mean that monsters shouldn't be able to do extraordinary things, typically unavailable to PCs, but that they shouldn't have a monopoly on such.
I think expect table variation is probably the best answer atm.
It seems to me that a lot of the confusion here comes from the wonky way that two-weapon fighting is used. Pathfinder got rid of the idea of a "handedness" for most purposes but it still uses vestigial terms like "off hand" and "two-weapon fighting" when they don't necessarily work in the way their descriptions would suggest.
You can take alternating iterative attacks with weapons in either hand but you're not two-weapon fighting and none of them are "off hand" attacks unless you exceed your attacks granted by BAB. Nor is two-weapon fighting necessarily limited to just two weapons. You could take your iteratives with your two held weapons and your extra "off hand" attack with a third weapon (armor spikes, blade boot, etc).
In the context of two weapon fighting, "off hand" is mostly just code to apply whatever penalties are applicable when you take attacks in excess of your normal amount. For that reason, multiweapon fighting really could use a sentence saying that it explicitly grants you additional "off hand" attacks based on how many arms you have because it's otherwise limited by the way TWF works, which says you get just one extra off hand attack. The way I see it, MWF probably should grant attacks for each hand, since otherwise it doesn't do anything. You can already wield as many weapons as you like and none of them are really strictly off hands.
That does start getting hairy when you start allowing extra limbs on PCs. But the vestigial arms from the Alchemist explicitly do not grant extra attacks and the Synthesist is still limited by the maximum number of attacks allowed to his eidolon I believe, so it shouldn't be too crazy.
Really, though. All of the language surrounding TWF and handedness could be cleaned up to remove the links to the older systems and make it more clear how it works in the current environment.
Mortavius wrote:
I know that he took Master of Many Styles, which I found out after the game last night, that makes him lose Flurry, so he should be down to 6 attacks per round.
In one round, he was able to full attack a manticore for over 120+ damage. Now, he had cast corrosive touch and lesser evolution surge (extra limbs) beforehand, but that still seems completely unreasonable for that level of character. Note, when he did the attack, he did only apply corrosive touch to a single attack.
He was using the Djinni style feats, and I think he read that he didn't need Elemental Fist requirements; that he could take it as a bonus feat at 1st level (which according to the requirements for that feat, is impossible).
His damage was 1d6 from his fist, plus Str (which is high, because he's fused with his Eidolon), plus 1d6 for elemental fist, plus wisdom bonus (which is high, because he's a summoner, and being a synthesist, he essentially only has to focus on three stats) for Djinni style. I can see looking at the feats that he has been doing some stuff wrong; Elemental Fist can only be used 2/day, or 3/day with Djinni style.
His justification is that his eidolon doesn't use natural attacks, it uses his monk unarmed strike damage. Thus, this allows Multiweapon Fighting to relieve the penalties for the attacks, since unarmed strike counts as a weapon.
Although, it does say under the unarmed...
MoMS doesn't get flurry
You can't take elemental fist without the prereqs even as a MoMS, it says so in the description. Which would make Djinni Style useless (but he could take it and use it later if he got Elemental Fist)
An eidolon would not do the monk unarmed damage with its attacks.*
In short, you got hoodwinked.
*I'm 99% sure of this.
Monk of the four winds 1/Unarmed fighter 1 can get him elemental fist AND djinn style, as having elemental fist as the pre-req they are mentioning in "except elemental fist". You can't jump to djinn, you can take elemental fist, THEN a elemental style.
Hes good cool using MOMS MK 2, for elemental fist then djin style, but the key thing is the Unarmed fighter can only get a style feat, but no style chains, and the MOMS can get any style OR chain feat, as long as they have the style connected to said chain.
He does have uses per day, and i believe he has to declare the attack before rolling. I don't think they applied to all his attacks in that round though.
Davick wrote: Mortavius wrote:
I know that he took Master of Many Styles, which I found out after the game last night, that makes him lose Flurry, so he should be down to 6 attacks per round.
In one round, he was able to full attack a manticore for over 120+ damage. Now, he had cast corrosive touch and lesser evolution surge (extra limbs) beforehand, but that still seems completely unreasonable for that level of character. Note, when he did the attack, he did only apply corrosive touch to a single attack.
He was using the Djinni style feats, and I think he read that he didn't need Elemental Fist requirements; that he could take it as a bonus feat at 1st level (which according to the requirements for that feat, is impossible).
His damage was 1d6 from his fist, plus Str (which is high, because he's fused with his Eidolon), plus 1d6 for elemental fist, plus wisdom bonus (which is high, because he's a summoner, and being a synthesist, he essentially only has to focus on three stats) for Djinni style. I can see looking at the feats that he has been doing some stuff wrong; Elemental Fist can only be used 2/day, or 3/day with Djinni style.
His justification is that his eidolon doesn't use natural attacks, it uses his monk unarmed strike damage. Thus, this allows Multiweapon Fighting to relieve the penalties for the attacks, since unarmed strike counts as a weapon.
Although, it does say under the unarmed...
MoMS doesn't get flurry
You can't take elemental fist without the prereqs even as a MoMS, it says so in the description. Which would make Djinni Style useless (but he could take it and use it later if he got Elemental Fist)
An eidolon would not do the monk unarmed damage with its attacks.*
In short, you got hoodwinked.
*I'm 99% sure of this. I'm 100. Anytime you see someone have more than twice the number of attacks than a dedicated two weapon martial character the answer should always be no. Situations like this are why I banned the syntheist not because its too powerful, but because some chucklehead is always trying to break the rules. Personally I think the archetype was a bad idea to begin with.
Davick wrote: In short, you got hoodwinked.
*I'm 99% sure of this.
I'm more than 99% sure, but I don't think it is intentional, but rather a misunderstanding as to how things stack. It seems like you and the player have less than a clear grasp on all the rules at play here so let me start with a list and hopefully end with some advice:
- Wow, where to begin... let's start with master of many styles and flurry. they don't get it, so he doesn't get an extra attack from flurry.
- He does get his unarmed strike damage for the limbs of his eidolon, but that doesn't give him six attacks. As pointed out, when you take unarmed strike it gives you one weapon no matter how many limbs you have. His six limbs don't grant any extra attacks unless they have weapons or an evolution that gives them a weapon. I have a quote:
prd wrote: Limbs (Ex): An eidolon grows an additional pair of limbs. They can be made into arms, complete with hands. The eidolon does not gain any additional natural attacks for an additional pair of arms, but it can take other evolutions that add additional attacks (such as claws or a slam). Arms that have hands can be used to wield weapons, if the eidolon is proficient. - To clarify, his monk unarmed attack uses his BAB progression and is therefore limited to only one attack per round. He cannot flurry. If he wants to attack with his other limbs he will need evolutions to make them natural weapons or he needs to equip weapons and take the penalties for multi-weapon fighting. Essentially, improved unarmed strike does not "arm" each of his limbs, it only gives him a one weapon regardless of anything else he has equipped.
- Multi-weapon fighting and Two-weapon fighting don't stack. The long and short is that a character with a weapon in hand or natural attack can always make a full attack with every "armed" limb. So, if this guy has a dagger in all six hands, then he gets six attacks with the multi-weapon penalties. MWF reduces these penalties. Creatures with more than two limbs who can wield weapons don't get to take the feats that improve two-weapon fighting. Basically, the ability to get four attacks at your highest bonus excludes from later getting two more attacks at a lower bonus. This is so multi-armed creatures don't end up with a ridiculously endless number of attacks.
- This character doesn't qualify for elemental fist. He could only take it as a bonus feat if he had dragon's ferocity which allows him to skip the pre-requisites as noted by other postes. He doesn't have the feat slots to do that at this level from everything else you referenced him having.
- The djinni feat only adds the wisdom to damage on an elemental fist attack. He would only have two per day if he even qualified for the feat (which he doesn't). Additionally, when he uses the feat, each use only empowers one attack, it doesn't apply to each attack in the round. Additionally, as noted above he would still only be getting one unarmed attack a round anyway.
Anyway...
This guy is stacking too many things in ways that won't work. If he wants all six limb attacks then he needs weapons in them or natural attack evolutions like claw or pincers. He could still use his monk unarmed stike for one of those six attacks and use elemental fist with his djinni style bonus, but not for all six. MWF will reduce the penalties for those six attacks. Also note, there is no way to do the thing he tried to do, but there are ways to get close. Monk and synthesist are not the best combination to achieve it though, because unarmed striking is not that useful in this situation.
pobbes wrote: The djinni feat only adds the wisdom to damage on an elemental fist attack. He would only have two per day if he even qualified for the feat (which he doesn't). He doesn't need to qualify if he uses a MOMS bonus feat to take it though, as long as he's picked up the style feat in a similar fashion (another MOMS bonus feat or the Unarmed Fighter bonus style feat (I believe it ignores prereqs too). That he wouldn't be able to use the style until he picks up Elemental Fist is another matter.
|
