Asking for evidence that is actually accredited isn't "ridiculously high standards of evidence". It is pretty fundamental standards of evidence. I guess you don't know this, but anybody can claim anything they want to on the Internet and fabricate "evidence" to support it.
you have ridiculously high standard of evidence for things you disagree with I thought more direct evidence
And news agencies do this but not the police. You won't take a photo showing the location, or his father doing a video walkthrough, but you will trust google earth to give you the right addresses off the police report. . (hint: bad idea)
You really, REALLY need to take internet conversations less seriously, and stop treating your own personal biases like some objective standard of truthiness that everyone should follow.
The reason I didn't ask specifically for the police report is because the police report isn't the only possible form of evidence about this case that can be accredited.
Dare I ask what else you would have taken?
He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony
Zimmerman acted like he was going to Rob, assault or abduct Martin. Martin concluding that he had to attack Zimmerman or suffer robbery or worse against his person was a reasonable conclusion. Therefore he can use his fists to beat the snot out of him.
It violates your own personal idea of certainty and the individuals application of violence. Your personal ideas are not the law.
Following someone DOES NOT GIVE THAT PERSON THE RIGHT TO JUMP YOU.Except in SYG states such as Florida where it frequently does.I said "follow", not "corner".
However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.
Note that the 'no duty to retreat' mentioned here applies only in case of being attacked. Other examples exist (such as having your home invaded), but those are clearly not relevant.
A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
Duck, just reread section 1 of 776.012 and try to understand the difference between following someone and walking behind someone. FWIW a colloquialism like "jump" has no relevance to any legal standard I've heard of; I'd also love some accredited evidence that Zimmerman was "jumped."
At this point Martin is between Zimmerman and his vehicle. What if the 911 dispatcher says get back to your vehicleIf i'm reading you right then Zimmerman should be training for either the olympics or the superfriends. You have him covering about 300 feet in 5 seconds.
Or it might be closer to 200 ft in 15 seconds, which is like 9 mph. Fastest human speed is something like 26 mph, so not quite super fast necessarily. Again, it really matters where exactly the truck is, where he exactly he ran to, how long (it is hard to judge based solely on the sound).
Admittedly, I don't have a lot of personal experience with robbers or kidnappers (thankfully), but "What are doing here?" doesn't strike me as a common approach. Nor if you thought something like that was going to happen would you start with, "Why are you following me?" Seems to me, if you thought they were going to rob or kidnap you, then you already (at least in your mind) know what they want. I just don't think that was really in Martin's mind. Now assault, sure, some red neck hick comes up and says, "What cha doing round here?" and that seems like something they may start out with before attacking you. But rob or kidnap?
I started with the closest possible location of the truck.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BI03-MRKnI
From him getting out of the vehicle to "We don't need you to do that" is 5 seconds.
Also, even if Martin is between zimmerman and the shortest route to the truck, he is not by any stretch of the imagination preventing zimmerman from getting to the truck.
The law doesn't say "act like". Besides, you don't know that to be true. All you know is that Zimmerman followed Martin while on the 911 call.]
I do know, for a fact, that if I was walking home at night and someone got out of their car to follow me, I would assume they were up to no good. Given that the portion of the law you quoted contains the words "reasonably believes" it says everything up to act like.
Duck, just reread section 1 of 776.012 and try to understand the difference between following someone and walking behind someone.You mean
That doesn't say that a person doesn't have a duty to retreat if such a retreat will prevent the violence. That says that a person doesn't have a duty to retreat if the violence will occur anyway. Like saying that if a family member has a gun pointed at them and the only way to stop it is to engage in deadly force, then I don't have a duty to retreat. I can use deadly force to protect my family member. But, if retreating with that family member will prevent them from being killed, then I have a duty to do that instead.
However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony;
I edited some of this for the sake of space; the portion of your post that I bolded is very to close to walking past a car and having the person inside it get out and follow you; they have demonstrated that the violence will occur anyway by getting out of the car and following you.
If jump is synonymous with attack, are you using it just for thug connotations or something?
The news agencies have already proven that they aren't trustworthy regarding this case.
That's a mite circular isn't it? I mean you're judging what "really happened" based on doing your damndest to only accept the facts that hold to your preconceived narrative. You obviously haven't looked at the maps, listened to the 911 tape, or taken any evidence from anyone but stormfront. You're having trouble with the concept that when something starts at point A and winds up at point B that means that said something moved towards point B.
Same to you, sir.
I'm rubber you're glue was old in the 3rd grade.
Court records, for one thing.
Then ask for police record or court records. For cases that haven't gone to court just ask for the police records.
Zimmerman acted like he was going to Rob, assault or abduct Martin.
The law doesn't say "act like".
It says that you need a reasonable belief that you need to fight to defend yourself. If someone is acting like a robber its giving you reason to conclude that they are a robber.
Besides, you don't know that to be true. All you know is that Zimmerman followed Martin while on the 911 call.p
No.
You do not get to go back to playing this disingenuous game after admitting that you had evidence of where the body was.
We know he went to Martins location after the 9 11 call. We know that because we know where Zimmermans truck was (roughly) and we know where Martins body was found. Either Zimmerman teleported from one place to the other OR he moved from the truck towards Martin.
Same to you. In fact, that was exactly what I was thinking of your position in this thread.
And if it were England you'd be right. It is however Florida and Florida and I are largely in agreement.
He is parked in front of the cut through. You can here him open his truck door, get out and start running. He is on foot and obviously pursuing Trayvon.I hear Zimmerman's breathing become regular again shortly after he agrees with the dispatcher not to chase after Martin.
The amount of time in which Zimmerman's breathing is irregular (ie. he's running) on the 911 tape is far too short for him to run as far as BNW's maps allege he ran.
He says "He's running" at 2:08
You can hear his car door open at 2:10 and him get out and start running after him.
The call goes on for two more minutes.
What are you talking about?
Based on the breathing he stops running shortly after the dispatcher tells him he doesn't need to chase. IIRC he only runs for 20-30 seconds.
OTOH, he obviously doesn't return directly to his car, since he could easily have reached it in the time on the call. He also says he's lost Martin.
He never says he's returning to his car and based on the distance the shooting was from the road, I assume he kept following or looking for Martin.
I dunno. While running you can cover a lot of ground in 20-30 seconds. I don't know if it was quite that long.
911 dispatch tells him not to chase himNo. The 911 dispatcher tells him "we don't need you to do that".
following you for at least 4 minutes or 5 minutesZimmerman starts chasing him at 2:16 and stops at around 2:33. That's not anywhere close to 4 minutes or 5 minutes. Trayvon doesn't even see Zimmerman until 0.54. If we include the time between when Trayvon sees Zimmerman and the chase begins, we're talking about a minute and a half TOPS.
You can still cover a lot of ground in that time while running.
911 dispatch tells him not to chase himNo. The 911 dispatcher tells him "we don't need you to do that".
following you for at least 4 minutes or 5 minutesZimmerman starts chasing him at 2:16 and stops at around 2:33. That's not anywhere close to 4 minutes or 5 minutes. Trayvon doesn't even see Zimmerman until 0.54. If we include the time between when Trayvon sees Zimmerman and the chase begins, we're talking about a minute and a half TOPS.He stopped running around 2:33. We do not know what he did then. We do know he did not return to his car, because he had plenty of time to do so: another 2 minutes at least to cover the distance of 20 seconds of running, but he wound up down the alley between the houses.
Possibly he just stood there. More likely, to me, he kept walking the way he thought Martin had gone, still looking for him, just not running. Or he'd gone the other way as suggested to cut him off.
Agreed re: Stopped running. He could still have been looking around for him via walking.
Listen to the 911 call. Zimmerman gets out right after he says "He's running" and starts chasing him.And the 911 person has not yet told him to stop, correct?
At this moment, he is completely in the wrong because he is now chasing a stranger who has done absolutely nothing wrong, but we'll move on from that.No disagreement there, not only is it wrong, but it is stupid. For all he knows Martin had a gun or knife and would have killed him in the dark. He has no idea about this person, so he should have stayed put and waited for the cops, or at the most circled around the streets in his truck if he was really gun-ho.
I wonder what would have happened if Martin was armed. Would this have been open and shut black people are evil and dangerous, see this one was ARMED!!! or a case of concealed carry vs. self defense?
Zimmerman observes Martin before making the call. That's not the same thing as following him. Zimmerman may have just came home and was getting ready to go inside when he saw Martin standing around in the rain.Zimmerman is following him when he calls, or else he isn't calling 911.
Actually...this brings to light an interesting question that may have already been answered.
When and how did Zimmerman first see Martin?
Going with the idea that he isn't a racist paranoid lunatic(or just one or the other), I'm sure he sees black people every day and doesn't call the cops on them. What made Martin different? Did he act different? Did he just not recognize him? Just standing around in the rain, possibly stoned(which I don't think he was, it takes a bit of weed to genuinely get stoned, and I don't think he had enough) isn't illegal- what made it warrant watching? Or following? Anyone have any info on how Zimmerman first saw Martin? Because I'm thinking something happened before, and I'm not just talking about break ins in the neighborhood.
I agree with that.It is also odd that his injuries aren't consistent with being hit from behind, which is what would happen if he was walking away.
His injuries (and the reports) are consistent with him getting in a shoving match that escalated into him getting his ass kicked
Wow.
1. The google map shows distance. It is about 500 ft from where Zimmerman said he was parked to where the body was found. Zimmerman was at the place where Trayvon was shot since he had to be there to shoot him, so clearly he traveled at minimum, 500 feet after the point where Trayvon, by Zimmerman's account, saw Zimmerman was watching him.A distance he could easily travel in his car after he returned when the 911 dispatcher told him "we don't need you to do that".
If you are going to assume that Zimmerman chased after Martin, then you have to explain why he stopped breathing hard while he was still on the phone with 911. Did Zimmerman catch up with Martin while still on the phone? Unlikely. Did Zimmerman suddenly gain the endurance of a teenager? Unlikely. He can't both have stopped running AND caught up with Martin.
2. Regardless of where Zimmerman was parked, he left his car on foot to pursue Trayvon. We know this because the car was not parked behind two buildings about 100 feet from the road as the crow flies, and about 200 feet from the nearest entry point from the road. Or 2/3 of a football field.Agreed, but that's not to say that he didn't return to his car.
3. He has no business following that kid, and even if he did he had no business chasing and confronting him. He isn't a police officer, and even if he was the kid has done absolutely nothing.Following someone DOES NOT GIVE THAT PERSON THE RIGHT TO JUMP YOU. It is entirely possible that Martin jumped him. It is, also, entirely possible that if he hadn't been jumped by Martin, he wouldn't have shot Martin.
Actually, as long as someone feels threatened, they can legally defend themselves.
Locking thread. If you want to discuss this topic again, you can do so in a civil manner that doesn't dissolve into internet lawyering matches.