Given my reading of Florida's SYG law, 1 is legal, provided you replace "jump" with "confront."
(Nitpicky, but legal jumping someone is a form of assault and battery imo.)
Legal or not, the 911 operator told Zimmerman not to follow Martin. Even if the operator hadn't, neighborhood watch policy is to observe and report, not arm oneself and pursue.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
He is parked in front of the cut through. You can here him open his truck door, get out and start running. He is on foot and obviously pursuing Trayvon.I hear Zimmerman's breathing become regular again shortly after he agrees with the dispatcher not to chase after Martin.
The amount of time in which Zimmerman's breathing is irregular (ie. he's running) on the 911 tape is far too short for him to run as far as BNW's maps allege he ran.
He says "He's running" at 2:08
You can hear his car door open at 2:10 and him get out and start running after him.
The call goes on for two more minutes.
What are you talking about?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm primarily concerned with two questions (seeing as how this case may set precedent)
1.) Should it be legal to jump someone and assault them just because you think they are following you? (not to say that that's what Martin did, but some people have argued that that's what he did)
2.) Should it be legal to follow someone you think is suspicious? (again, not to say that that's what Zimmerman did, but some people have argued that that's what he did).
1. How do you "Jump" someone who is chasing you down a dark alley? With a gun, I might add.
2. Zimmerman clearly followed him. There is absolutely no way Zimmerman is in that back alley unless he is following him. To say otherwise is ridiculous.
The fact that Martin was unarmed is irrelevant.
Not in the eyes of the law.
But claims like this do make me wonder why anyone still takes you the least bit seriously...
There hasn't been a ruling yet, so you can't honestly say that the fact that Martin was unarmed was relevant.
...and you can't say it wasn't. Except that you already did.
But I'm glad you're being so open-minded about the whole thing.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Zimmerman's phone call to 911 indicates that he lost sight of Martin. Its very easy to jump someone by jumping out of hiding.
Which you might reasonably do if some crazy guy with a gun is chasing you down a back alley.
If Zimmerman stays in his SUV, Martin is alive.
If Zimmerman stays on the street and doesn't chase him down the dark back alley the kid went down to get away from him, Martin is alive.
Look at the google map, look at the video. There is no reason for Zimmerman to get out of his SUV to chase the kid.
None.
He was specifically told not to do so.
We know Zimmerman was following the kid to the point he scared the kid enough to run away from him. Then Zimmerman jumped out of his SUV and chased the kid down an alley.
He doesn't do this, the kid is alive.
This is one possible way things could have gone down.
Martin leaves the street (twins street?) taking the sidewalk that leads across to the other street (retreat view circle?) or to the sidewalk between (behind) the houses.
Zimmerman gets out of his truck at that corner, runs down the road (twins) and through the second break in the houses to other street (from twins to retreat). Remember Zimmerman said he thought Martin was heading towards the back entrance of the community. Logically he would attempt to cut him off rather than just chase after him. Zimmerman has lost Martin because behind the houses is too dark to see Martin at the end of the line, or maybe Martin was going to retreat view and saw zimmerman and backed up to go down the sidewalk through the back.
At this point the 911 person tells him they don't need him to follow the suspect.
Zimmerman starts heading back, on the way back to his truck he takes the sidewalk behind/between the houses, which Martin has decided to take as well.
Zimmerman and Martin run smack into each other and *something* happens. Martin is on top of Zimmerman, Zimmerman shoots Martin.
Look at the google map, look at the video. There is no reason for Zimmerman to get out of his SUV to chase the kid.
None.
He was specifically told not to do so.
Wait, did Zimmerman get out of his car and start running before he was told not to, or after? Because you seem to be indicating that he was told first than chased, but I could have sworn someone said he was told after he started chasing.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Wait, did Zimmerman get out of his car and start running before he was told not to, or after? Because you seem to be indicating that he was told first than chased, but I could have sworn someone said he was told after he started chasing.Look at the google map, look at the video. There is no reason for Zimmerman to get out of his SUV to chase the kid.
None.
He was specifically told not to do so.
Listen to the 911 call. Zimmerman gets out right after he says "He's running" and starts chasing him.
At this moment, he is completely in the wrong because he is now chasing a stranger who has done absolutely nothing wrong, but we'll move on from that. The 911 dispatch tells him not to chase him, and at this point if Zimmerman gets back in his car and waits for police, as he was told, Martin is alive.
Two minutes pass and the call ends. If at this point Zimmerman waits for police, Martin is alive.
Let's say he did "cut him off at the pass". At this point you are a 17 year old kid who is being followed at night by some weird creepy guy in an SUV who has been following you for at least 4 minutes or 5 minutes (the length of the 911 call) just popped out of a blind alley on you.
Right now, look at a clock for 5 minutes thinking about walking home in the dark, in the rain, with a guy in an SUV following you.
|
|
911 dispatch tells him not to chase himNo. The 911 dispatcher tells him "we don't need you to do that".
following you for at least 4 minutes or 5 minutesZimmerman starts chasing him at 2:16 and stops at around 2:33. That's not anywhere close to 4 minutes or 5 minutes. Trayvon doesn't even see Zimmerman until 0.54. If we include the time between when Trayvon sees Zimmerman and the chase begins, we're talking about a minute and a half TOPS.
Zimmerman is following him when he calls, or else he isn't calling 911.
At the 1 minute mark, he says he is coming right toward me, meaning he is sitting in his car looking right at the kid who is walking toward him.
At 1:21 he says "He's coming to check me out" meaning, Martin was aware he was being stared at and followed by this guy.
The call goes on for three minutes after that, and Zimmerman gets out of the car 40 seconds after this point to chase the kid.
So at minimum the kid sees this guy following him, gets scared and runs from him.
Which matches up to the call to his girlfriend.
Zimmerman thinks he is "on something" probably because he is talking to someone on his earpiece.
Zimmerman chased a 17 year old kid walking home from 7-11, talking to his girlfriend on the phone, down a dark alley. With a gun.
That is what happened.
|
|
Thank you. This is the first time I've seen actual evidence indicating where the body was.I don't find your point #1 credible because Martin was not that far from his house. He could have just ran home.
I've seen no evidence indicating that he had a phone with an earpiece.
That's because you're not looking. Every description I've read about the girlfriend's testimony mentions the earpiece falling out when the fight begins. If you want official documentation, I've seen a list of physical evidence from the scene in a police report released later on. I'm sure it's in there.
Just like you didn't look for anything about where the body was. It took me about 2 minutes to find it. Longer trying to find another link to the official source.
Looking for actual information might mean the truthiness he feels in his heart could be wrong...
Listen to the 911 call. Zimmerman gets out right after he says "He's running" and starts chasing him.
And the 911 person has not yet told him to stop, correct?
At this moment, he is completely in the wrong because he is now chasing a stranger who has done absolutely nothing wrong, but we'll move on from that.
No disagreement there, not only is it wrong, but it is stupid. For all he knows Martin had a gun or knife and would have killed him in the dark. He has no idea about this person, so he should have stayed put and waited for the cops, or at the most circled around the streets in his truck if he was really gun-ho.
The 911 dispatch tells him not to chase him,
Ok, we agree on this. Now where is Zimmerman and where is Martin at this very point in time? Do you know for certain? I don't. You seem to be claiming with certainty that Zimmerman is between Martin and his truck. And so Zimmerman can easily return to his truck without encountering Martin. My suggestion is that could be the case, but it could also be that Zimmerman running ahead in an attempt to cut Martin off. In this situation, Martin is actually between Zimmerman and his truck. Zimmerman says he has no idea where Martin now is. So let's assume he doesn't now know that Martin is directly between him and his truck. If he tries to listen to the 911 operator, it will cause him to run into Martin at that point. So he could potentially be listen the 911 operator (something you have claimed he should have done) and still encountered Martin.
Again, I have no evidence to say this is how it went down. All I'm saying is that nobody here knows 100% how things happened. Just because someone has doubts doesn't mean they are being "willfully ignorant".
and at this point if Zimmerman gets back in his car and waits for police, as he was told, Martin is alive.
If Martin is not between the truck and Zimmerman, this is true.
Two minutes pass and the call ends. If at this point Zimmerman waits for police, Martin is alive.
Possibly, if it was possible for him to return to his car.
Let's say he did "cut him off at the pass". At this point you are a 17 year old kid who is being followed at night by some weird creepy guy in an SUV who has been following you for at least 4 minutes or 5 minutes (the length of the 911 call) just popped out of a blind alley on you.
Right now, look at a clock for 5 minutes thinking about walking home in the dark, in the rain, with a guy in an SUV following you.
You aren't going to get me to agree that sucker punching someone that is following you is morally justified. I'm sorry, I am much too much of a pacifist for that. Also, you might note in both accounts, the girlfriend's and Zimmerman's, the encounter started with words before going to violence. So even claiming that Martin had to pre-emptive attack (Zimmerman is supposedly a Dem, so maybe Martin was a Neo-Con), wouldn't he have done that before they exchanged words?
|
|
@presman If you look at the google map, there is no way for Trayvon to be between him and his truck. If he took the cut between the houses that isn't a sidewalk, he can go back out the same way. If he took the sidewalk, he would be coming from behind Trayvon.
If Trayvon had been shot on the street, or at the top of the sidewalk, maybe. Where the body was found was almost exactly halfway between either entrance, meaning Zimmerman had to approach him, not the other way around.
@Darkwing Duck - That is exactly what the evidence shows, you just don't want to research. We actually have a lot of evidence. We have Zimmerman's 911 call. We have over 40 minutes of 911 calls from people in the area, and we have Trayvon's call log, which indicates he was on the phone during the whole things, and we have the account of the person he was talking to on the phone at the time of the altercation.
She said that Trayvon saw Zimmerman, she told him to run but he said he would just walk fast around the back. She said she heard Trayvon say "Why are you following me" and thought she heard someone say "What are you doing here".
She said she heard pushing, at which point the phone was disconnected.
The fact you are willing to take more time arguing for a position than researching it, doesn't mean there is any lack of available information.
Particularly since you are researching what does "help" your case, specifically the trace amounts of marijuana in his system...because no 17 year old smokes pot...
You can find that but you can't find the layout and the fact he had an earpiece in and was talking on the phone throughout (verified by released call log information...)
You are trying to defend a position rather than seeking a factual account of what occurred.
Perhaps you should look to sources other than "Drudge". There is this cool site called "google". Check it out sometime.
|
|
I have linked to a number of things actually. The 9-11 tape, the google map of the area, the walk through by his father. Others linked to the police report information...
You just don't like that the facts don't fit your narrative.
No one has said he followed him from the 7-11. He followed him from the gate over 500 ft, or almost two football fields. He called 911 as soon as a black kid came through the gate, then followed him on foot down a back alley.
How do I know he followed? Because that is where the body was found and he didn't drive there.
So we know Zimmerman followed the kid down an alley, and we have evidence that the kid was scared (he ran away from Zimmerman).
If I am walking down the street, and some guy is following me, I'm speeding up. If he gets out and chases me, I'm running. If I'm cornered, I'm fighting.
None of that happens if Zimmerman stays in his car.
Trayvon Martin is not dead if Zimmerman stays in his car.
If Zimmerman wanted to make sure he wasn't breaking in, he stands at the top of the sidewalk and watches the kid. Or he drives to the other end of the sidewalk and looks up the street at the kid.
He didn't to either of these things. He followed the kid and he approached the kid.
We know this based on where the fight took place and where the body was found.
Not at the top of the side walk. Not even near the cut through. Halfway between the two entrances. Meaning Zimmerman had to walk down to the Trayvon.
If Trayvon approached him, the altercation occurs at an entrance point, either at the cut or near the top of the sidewalk.
The kid is dead because of Zimmerman. Frankly, Zimmerman's life is ruined at this point, so I don't need him to get any more "punishment".
What I do think needs to happen is idiots like Zimmerman need to learn from this. And idiots who try and defend his actions are going to end up getting more people killed.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It is also odd that his injuries aren't consistent with being hit from behind, which is what would happen if he was walking away.
His injuries (and the reports) are consistent with him getting in a shoving match that escalated into him getting his ass kicked before he pulled out his gun and shot a 17 year old kid he had been harassing because he didn't think he belonged in his neighborhood.
|
|
I have linked to a number of things actually. The 9-11 tape, the google map of the area, the walk through by his father. Others linked to the police report information...The maps showed the car in two different places. The walkthrough is, by the father's own confession, a best guess. The 911 tape doesn't support the claims that were made of it. I don't like this 'evidence' because it either hasn't been vetted or doesn't support the claims made of it.
The police report did. I acknowledged that. I didn't reject it even though it disagreed with my original narrative. I made a point of thanking theJeff for linking to it.
Your ad hominems are completely unwarranted.He followed him from the gate over 500 ft, or almost two football fields. He called 911 as soon as a black kid came through the gate, then followed him on foot down a back alley.There's no evidence of that. My narrative (which I've admitted is speculative) meets the evidence presented as well and does not require him to have followed Martin more than a short span.
None of that happens if Zimmerman stays in his car.
Trayvon Martin is not dead if Zimmerman stays in his car.
No, but if Trayvon was trying to sneak in the back of an apartment, then someone else might have ended up hurt. Zimmerman had no way of knowing. Interceding was permissible as a citizen's arrest. Watching the kid in order to scare him away was pointless if the kid didn't see him. I have no idea whether Martin and Zimmerman locked eyes at this point and neither do you.
1. The google map shows distance. It is about 500 ft from where Zimmerman said he was parked to where the body was found. Zimmerman was at the place where Trayvon was shot since he had to be there to shoot him, so clearly he traveled at minimum, 500 feet after the point where Trayvon, by Zimmerman's account, saw Zimmerman was watching him.
2. Regardless of where Zimmerman was parked, he left his car on foot to pursue Trayvon. We know this because the car was not parked behind two buildings about 100 feet from the road as the crow flies, and about 200 feet from the nearest entry point from the road. Or 2/3 of a football field.
3. He has no business following that kid, and even if he did he had no business chasing and confronting him. He isn't a police officer, and even if he was the kid has done absolutely nothing.
I'm not even sure you listened to the 911 tape at this point, as you seem to be overlooking that Zimmerman said "Now he's just staring at me"
|
|
He doesn't claim to have been hit from behind. He claims Martin approached him from behind and he turned and they exchanged words before Martin punched him.It is also odd that his injuries aren't consistent with being hit from behind, which is what would happen if he was walking away.
His injuries (and the reports) are consistent with him getting in a shoving match that escalated into him getting his ass kicked before he pulled out his gun and shot a 17 year old kid he had been harassing because he didn't think he belonged in his neighborhood.
They did exchange words. And I suspect they exchanged shoves that escalated to punches, as that is what the person who overheard the whole thing said happened.
But if I was being followed by someone on my way home, and I asked them why they were following me and they asked what I was doing in my own neighborhood, perhaps the rest of the interaction wouldn't be cordial and friendly.
If Zimmerman observes rather than pursues, Trayvon Martin is alive. Period, full stop.
Darkwing duck
Ok, and now that someone has shown that you were wrong about the positions of the bodies to the point you finally accept what 30 seconds on the internet would have gotten you now what? Seriously dude, I don't know what kind of report you'll actually accept on a matter that no one is contesting. How do you show a position of a body in the past to a person who doesn't accept the position of heavenly bodies in the present?
You stop paying any attention to that and disingenuously switch over to Martins allegedly visible intoxication.
No.
Back to the body.
If he was right outside his car (and he certainly had enough time to get back by the time the 911 call was ended), then he could have gotten back inside right after he hung up.
That would give enough time for everything else that happened.
... Ok, so Zimmerman Chases after martin Stops. Gets back to his car. Martin confronts him at the car , the two... what.. tussle and roll with each other for 200 yards? The bullet blows martin over the house? The bullet pulls a Robinhood and blasts the kid the length of two houses and then makes him pull a left?
Or Zimmerman lied about the position of his car, and drove it up on the sidewalk in the grass without leaving any tracks and without being commented on by Martin?
Zimmerman got out of the car. He followed martin. NO ONE is contesting this. There is no sane, rational reason for contesting this.
What was martin supposed to think? Some dude he'd just run away from was following him. Why on earth would someone that isn't wearing a uniform or a badge start chasing you besides to mug you?
The absolute best case for ZImmerman, duck hide, whack, is a perfectly valid and in florida LEGAL response because Zimmerman has created the reasonable belief that he intends to harm martin by acting like a creepy abductor dude.
I know what since you don't want it to be true your selective epistemic nihilism kicks in, but neither the Florida jury or Martin could be expected to follow a standard of certainty that doesn't exist and is frankly, inane. There is no situation here that puts zimmerman in the right because he is the aggressor in the conflict.
@presman If you look at the google map, there is no way for Trayvon to be between him and his truck. If he took the cut between the houses that isn't a sidewalk, he can go back out the same way. If he took the sidewalk, he would be coming from behind Trayvon.
Actually he could.
Let's take two maps that BNW helpfully provided. Please click on these maps while reading this post, so you can visualize what I am describing.
Notice where the truck is said to be (closer than the clubhouse).
Also notice the names of the streets. The inner is Twin Trees and the outer is Retreat View Circle (I'm just point these out so you know what streets I am talking about).
Now following me here. Let's say, just for arguments sake that Zimmerman started at his close car, shown in Map 1. He then picks up the yellow path, running down along Twin Trees. Until he gets to the break and cuts through the buildings and gets to the sidewalk. But now here is where his path might have diverged from Map 2. Let's say he continued on relatively straight and cut through the other buildings and ended up at Retreat View Circle.
At this point Martin is between Zimmerman and his vehicle. What if the 911 dispatcher says get back to your vehicle. Zimmerman complies, and heads back along the very same route until he comes to the sidewalk between/behind the houses. What happens then? I don't know. Maybe before he can cut through the builds again, he encounters Martin, something happens, they start fighting (fights rarely stay in exactly one spot) and they drift North (assume up on the map is North) a little and that is where the encounter ends*. Or maybe Zimmerman decides to take the sidewalk North because he doesn't feel comfortable cutting through the grass when it is not an "emergency" (defined by him). Or maybe he heads North just to keep a watch out to see if Martin is breaking into a house. In any of those cases he could still be heading back towards his car, thus obeying the 911 dispatcher.
Hell, Martin didn't even live there (that is not meant to imply he didn't have a right to be there, just in case you were thinking that). That was his father's girlfriend's house. He had just been sent there after getting suspended. He could have been lost and that is why he was looking around strangely. When he took off, he could of gone the wrong way (or the right one) and then turned back thinking he missed the house and ran into Zimmerman. My point is, we assume he was heading straight for the house, but maybe he was going a zig-zag pattern looking for it because he forgot where it was because some weird guy was following him.
*EDIT: Another alternative could be, he turns around starts heading back and Martin says to him (from closer to the end spot) "Why are you following me?" Zimmerman stops, and turns and starts approaching Martin, "What are you doing here?" Things go south (not literally) from there. And I don't it is totally unreasonable to approach someone that is talking to you. In fact I would think it was extremely strange to not approach someone that just called out to you.
At this point Martin is between Zimmerman and his vehicle. What if the 911 dispatcher says get back to your vehicle
If i'm reading you right then Zimmerman should be training for either the olympics or the superfriends. You have him covering about 300 feet in 5 seconds.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The rest of your post is too drug addled to follow.
Nice to know that you and your hero there have similar abilities to project.
It would have taken 30 seconds if I'd known that it was on Google. It would have taken someone participating in this thread 30 seconds to link to it since they'd already found it.
If you'd asked "is it in the police report" I could have found it in 30 seconds. But since you have ridiculously high standard of evidence for things you disagree with I thought more direct evidence that they were away from the road and on the sidewalk was required.
In short "find it in the police report" is easy. "Find evidence Darkwing Duck will accept" is much harder because I have no idea what sort of evidence is acceptable to someone that doesn't think that heliocentrism is a done deal.
Following someone DOES NOT GIVE THAT PERSON THE RIGHT TO JUMP YOU.
Except in SYG states such as Florida where it frequently does.