ok this is like half a rant, half a discussion, the thing is im playing 2 AP atm, (RotRL and Carrion Crown) both with the same group of friends (one DMs runelords and other DMs carrion)and im not sure if the AP are ment to be like that but we are completely under the wealth lvl, the DM says "its because you are 6 players" but my lvl 6 alchemist barely has like 4k gold, the wealthiest party member has a +2 sword that is part of a treasure (i wont say more to avoid spoilers) but i think that this kills a lot of the fun, no +X items, no magic armors, no money to buy random stuff and the like. is this normal?
ok this is like half a rant, half a discussion, the thing is im playing 2 AP atm, (RotRL and Carrion Crown) both with the same group of friends (one DMs runelords and other DMs carrion)and im not sure if the AP are ment to be like that but we are completely under the wealth lvl, the DM says "its because you are 6 players" but my lvl 6 alchemist barely has like 4k gold, the wealthiest party member has a +2 sword that is part of a treasure (i wont say more to avoid spoilers) but i think that this kills a lot of the fun, no +X items, no magic armors, no money to buy random stuff and the like. is this normal?
No, he likely has editted the monetary rewards, I have read RotRL and it has more wealth than that.
Keep in mind that most APs are built around a party of 4, as well. So, as he said, the standard wealth would be less per person with a 6-person party. He may be adjusting the Wealth-By-Level by giving you powerful weapons at his choosing, so you don't have so much free coin that you can just go buy the omni-weapon-of-mass-ownage, so to speak. You already have a leg up on the AP based on party size. Probably should do a little adjusting so that the party isn't so sparce on coin.
Yes, you're not running around with a whole bunch of +X weapons and armor, which I admit does feel pretty good to have. Outside of the fun of just having those things, do you feel that the battles are too hard for the party because of this lack of wealth? If so, you may want to address that with the GM as well.
EDIT: When you say your alchemist has 4k gold, is that just free gold in his pocket? Or is it the total value of all the things that he owns?
The GM is playing with reduced wealth. Enjoy the challenge of having to get by on skills, feats, spells and ingenuity. With six characters and Pathfinder rather than the 3.5 that the RotRL was designed for the GM will probably still have to ramp up the bad guys even with less baubles. WBL guidelines are just that, and a GM can choose to run things differently, particularly if they have a reasonable rationale.
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Assuming you do everything in an adventure path, you should have significantly more wealth then that, though if the dm didnt adjust Rise of the Runelords you will probably have less gear then is appropropriate, since wealth rewards and xp rewards were reworked in pathfinder and are different then they were in 3.5.
That said, is he not adjusting encounters either? Some dms with oversized parties just run them as is, reducing wealth and level of the party as its split between more then the assumed 4 people. Personally I think its a very poor method of dealing with a large party, but if thats what he is doing, I could easily see you under geared.
The other possibility is that you have missed things. Particularly in APs treasure can be hidden off in corners, or in encounters you have missed by chance. If he is just leveling you guys up at appropriate times but not directing you to every encounter in the ap, it could go a long way towards explaining your lack of gear.
Personally I hate the whole wealth system in the game, and I am glad to be rid of it in mine. I hate how much of characters power is tied up in magic items and not within the character themselves.
Personally I hate the whole wealth system in the game, and I am glad to be rid of it in mine. I hate how much of characters power is tied up in magic items and not within the character themselves.
+1
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Just enjoy the game, get by on your wits. If you really want something... speak up in-character and seek it out. There are ways to acquire treasure that don't involve spending money or crafting. For decades players focused much more on their characters than on the trappings of wealth anyhow. I'll respect your right to find it "unfun" but have you really explored the alternatives already? I find great enjoyment by just scraping by, making the most of everything, especially due to scarcity.
I have the pleasure - as many others on these forums, too - to get to know both sides of the medal.
As a player, I certainly understand where you'r coming from. In the game I participate as player, my lvl 6 ranger still has his gear from lvl 1 and our most powerful item is a +1 flaming longsword which is wielded by our fighter.
As GM, I also see the benefits of giving less treasure as loot. Especially in your case, where there are more players than what the encounters were designed for and where you play with generally more powerful PCs (D&D compared to PF) - it keeps you, as GM, from having to redesign, i. e. empowering, every single encounter and still throwing demanding monsters, traps, hazards etc at the group.
On a tangent: Do monsters at higher CR range, say CR12+, not just plainly assume, that PCs have certain gear as default (talking about the "Big Six" here) to counter their AB, making the saves etc?
Ruyan.
On a tangent: Do monsters at higher CR range, say CR12+, not just plainly assume, that PCs have certain gear as default (talking about the "Big Six" here) to counter their AB, making the saves etc?Ruyan.
At high levels, the chance of failure becomes far higher without them yes. What an acceptable chance for failure is for various dms/groups varies, but whenever I've looked at it there is a rather dramatic dropoff in success rates without magic gear (particularly the big six).
letme ad more data, RotRL party: halfling monk, human fighter, human barb. human enchanter, and me, the cleric/ranger, all lvl 10,just finished hook mountain, my gear: weapon+1, mithril breasplate +1, amulet of nat armor +1, ring +1 and a griphon figurine
carrion party: all lvl 6 elven ranger, human monk, human oracle, half orc bard/cavalier, dhampyr magus and me, the human alchemist, i got a handy haversack and 2k gold plus around 30 acids/alch. fires the cavalier and the ranger each has a +2 weapon,we got 2 +1 weapons more and 1 ring of armor +1 but nothing else (we all got the 2k cash from last adventure but thats all)
so as you can see we are VERY far from what the book says that a lvl 6 char should have, i wanted to know if thats something usual or my DMs are being greedy
With Rise of the Runelords, I can easily see why you aren't gushing cash. Loot was spare enough in the early encounters and it was easy to miss large caches. That changed in our group not soon after where you probably are. We then if anything had too much riches (you can't really have too much, but you can imbalance things). It sure made the first few magic items special. In fact, I finished the game with the very first magic weapon I found, suitably upgraded of course.
It is frustrating to not have enough loot to equip a character the way you want, but it certainly makes your drive to get more and better loot that much greater. If I have to make a choice between flat broke and Monty Hall, I'll take flat broke, because if you already have everything, what is the point in risking your life to get more.
We never had any PC deaths due to a lack of treasure, but it was a primary motivator to continue adventuring.
i forgot to mention both parties are made with 18 points (runelords with a regional extra feat from the FR setting and carrion with 1 trait, we play it in golarion) so we kinda have mid/low stats and no money to compensate
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While I hear what you're saying and understand your point of view, I have to side with the GM. I mean yeah it's nice when gold is raining down on the party but personally don't see a serious issue with this. I guess chalk that up to a different playing style?
Maybe you can just slow down the progression of the story and make use of your crafting and profession skills to make a little extra coinage?
Aside from encounters where you need magical weapons to damage an enemy, do that many people need magic gear to be 'having fun' in a pathfinder campaign?
my lvl 6 alchemist barely has like 4k gold, the wealthiest party member has a +2 sword that is part of a treasure (i wont say more to avoid spoilers) but i think that this kills a lot of the fun, no +X items, no magic armors, no money to buy random stuff and the like. is this normal?
I feel for you. My level 7 alchemist has about 10K gp in items and cash (composite longbow +1, amulet of natural armor +1, handy haversack, mithral chain shirt), and that seems a bit on the low end to me.
Is it normal? I find it's fairly common to be below the wealth-by-level chart (either in 3.5 or Pathfinder), often because the players miss some bits of treasure here and there or because the treasure comes in forms that nobody wants (and so it gets sold for 1/2 value).
Aside from encounters where you need magical weapons to damage an enemy, do that many people need magic gear to be 'having fun' in a pathfinder campaign?
I can't speak for anyone else, but I love having cool magic items for my PCs! That doesn't mean I'm incapable of having fun without them, but it's more fun with them. :-)
i dont say that i dont like the way they DM or the AP at all i was wondering if its something usual, i see many builds that depend on certain items or certain stats that are not achievable if the GM does not let the coins flow
I've noticed the AP's tend to keep you well under the WBL.
That is across a few of them, with different GM's. So its not a stingy GM.
Aside from encounters where you need magical weapons to damage an enemy, do that many people need magic gear to be 'having fun' in a pathfinder campaign?
That is all a matter of preference. Without magic gear, and without adjustment to monsters (IE using something other then CR to determine appropriate challenges) then yes, it is hard to have fun witout magic equipement. Because without it, you are behind the curve in terms of succcess vs failure at the things your character ought to be good at. Obviously good dms can adjust to low magic games, but if you are running an ap as is, without some serious munchkinism, the players are in signficant trouble without adequate magic gear for the harder challenges in the adventure.
But then again, that too is a matter of preference. Some groups are more ok with character death and failure then others. For my group, a tpk would essentially stop the campaign as it halts all the individual narratives for the characters, and disrupts the overall story. For others they roll up new characters and pick up where they left off. So again, its a matter of preference how important that chance of success is even without adjustment.
It might be helpful to get a crafting feat like Wonderous. After all, he can't be mad if you craft stuff since you are already below WBL (likely even after crafting).
i forgot to mention both parties are made with 18 points (runelords with a regional extra feat from the FR setting and carrion with 1 trait, we play it in golarion) so we kinda have mid/low stats and no money to compensate.
Umm, actually, you have mid-high stats - the AP's are designed for characters with the "standard" 15 point buy. You were also given a regional feat or trait, which are additional advantages. Oh, and runelords was made for 3.5 so your characters should be a good amount more powerful then their 3.5 counterparts.
The biggest factor however is that you have SIX players in a campaign designed for four. That is a HUGE advantage. If things are not a total cakewalk it is only because your GM is working hard to keep it challenging.
I GM'd runelords up to the 4th book, and the treasure given is very slim. If you can't sell off ogre hooks and some other "monstrous" items there isn't much else. Ask your GM to read THIS thread on the topic if you feel you need to. I'm GM'ing CC right now, but haven't even finished the first book, so I can't offer much insight.
The bottom line is that treasure is just one factor of regulating game balance. If the game is too difficult and you can't survive, then you don't have enough treasure. On the other hand, if everything is fun, but the book has different numbers in the WBL chart, your GM is doing it right.
i feel your pain. had a level nine character with maybe 3k gold worth of gear total. we brought it to our DM's attention and he was good enough to rectify it by throwing a bunch of magic item wielding badguys at us, which meant that we were far closer to proper WPL levels by the end of the dungeon.
having a buff mage with Greater Magic Weapon and a buff oracle with Magic vestment definately helped us make it that far without shiny gear, though.
In our ROTRL campaign no one really noticed the wealth issue until my character died. The DM ruled that his replacement came with WBL and.. well, it was *obvious* then that the group was way behind.
He's shored it up occasionally with a pretty big stash landed here or there but for the most part we are behind WBL- and with a 6 man table we're still steam rolling stuff, so can't really say its hurting us too terribly.
under-WBL hurts alot more the closer down you get to 4 (or fewer) players, at least IMO.
-S
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I am really not a fan of the whole wealth by level system. And the OP here is a good reason why. If the game is fun and challenging, who the heck cares about the wealth?
I'll become a fan of the wealth by level system the first time a player comes up to me as a GM and says "um.... well, the thing is... you see... my character has too much wealth according to the wealth by level guidelines so I need to give some back...."
There's a few times where you end up woefully underequipped for what the AP's throw though... that is wrongbadfun.
There's a few times where you end up woefully underequipped for what the AP's throw though... that is wrongbadfun.
That's one reason I don't run adventure paths. And any GM that isn't adjusting to the PCs' abilities isn't doing their job.
One of the things I constantly remind myself is that getting great stuff is fun, but it just means the enemy is going to have equally great stuff. If the adventures are run right. And if they aren't run right, then having stuff isn't all that much protection anyway.
The main reason I periodically adjust my PCs to meet wealth by level guidelines is to ensure they don't "feel underpowered" after doing things like reading these boards. I have never yet had a player complain that they have less fun when they have less stuff. I HAVE had some complain that they have TOO MUCH stuff and it's tough to keep track of it all.
Magic item creep is one of the real problems with this game.
But, as with just about all things gaming, it's worse in 4e.
Carrion Crown has most of the money tied up in expendables. It was an experiment by Paizo.
I did not care for it as a GM, even though the players did not complain. If I get to run it again I will be dropping more loot into the game.
Yeah, I guess I never realized PF modules were built around assuming players had magic gear at a certain level.
I've always treated magic items as something that makes you more powerful, not something mandatory to keep you at power level.
Though, having just finished the 2nd book of the first PF module I've ever played in, I have seen far more magic DR and level drain than I've ever seen in a home campaign pre level 5, so I guess it makes sense.
Magic items are absolutely factored into the CR ratings and are required for some classes to function adequately.
Which is terrible from a game rules perspective imho, but that's how it is.
However much folks knock on 4e, at least 4e has actual mechanics that describe exactly how to keep characters level appropriate in low- or no-magic campaigns. I don't LIKE how they do it, but at least they do it.
so far my biggest concert is dying because of this, or the forced intervention of the DM to avoid a TPK, like certain lady on top of certain tower, in one of the AP, if the DM saves you once, is ok, but i dont want the DMs invisible hand saving my ass every 3 encounters with some narrative situation (so far we´ve been lucky in carrion, but the runelords party had a few deaths so far....)
I've run the CoT and KM and treasure is stingy in the first too books to the point of you being serverly under the WBL guidelines. Then in book 3 of both APs it makes up for that. It's not too bad when you read the AP but I find when you run it player miss things. Maybe it's DC 20 perception check to notice treasure hidden in area and all the player miss out on fight here or there. This end up with them being quite short in terms of WBL. I've read the SS, CC, JR APs and they seem to follow this similar path.
So I'm not sure RotRL but it seem to a the model they use in APs. Then add two players and if the GM does add to the encounter they should also add to the treasure.