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But then we still have the issue of the double barrel pistol and DPR of 209.
I'm pretty sure that's not counting DR at all. Which is a problem, since the listed creature you're dealing with (and many others) very much have that, and it effects the Gunsling significantly more than the Barbarian (basically twice as much, actually).
I'm just going to chime in and agree on the utterly poor design of that Barbarian, and not just on DPR. Hell, he can get +5 AC just by ditching the Ring of Evasion! (Ring of Protection +2, Amulet of Natural Armor +2, up Armor to +4).
That's off the top of my head, mind you.
And the Beast Totem line of powers would also increase his AC by another +4, as well as giving him Pounce.
Your attack numbers are also off: 11+9+3+3=26, not 23 (remember Furious Focus).
I assume there are numerous other things I'm not seeing, but those are just on a casual once-over.
Hero Lab put out those attack numbers, and I corrected them before putting them into my spreadsheet. I don't know why Hero Lab gets something that simple wrong. Rather sloppy of them.
As for the AC, yes, you could add +5 AC and get to an equally meaningless AC of 21 for the CR. The monster I used for my calculation is +21 to hit. Hence there is no difference between a 16 and a 21. Heck, I probably should have saved the money I spent on the armor, and put it somewhere else really. Evasion is far more valuable than a piddling amount of AC at high level. If you are not concentrating on AC at these levels and getting into the upper 30s, it is pretty much meaningless.
But then we still have the issue of the double barrel pistol and DPR of 209.I'm pretty sure that's not counting DR at all. Which is a problem, since the listed creature you're dealing with (and many others) very much have that, and it effects the Gunsling significantly more than the Barbarian (basically twice as much, actually).
Yes, but as the DR is just 10/good, oil of bless weapon solves the problem and is cheap (I always carry it on high level characters).
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I'd like to point out that the fact that the Barbarian needs pounce while the gunslinger gets to shoot away (so long as they're within that magical 20 feet) is actually in the gunslinger's favor, not the barbarian's. Pounce just evens up the score there.
Well, sort of. It really depends on your starting distance from a fight. Anywhere withing ~80' for most medium barbarians means he'll probably get a full attack, at least if there aren't any obstacles. In close quarters fights, yeah, it's a wash, but in larger areas it can make a big difference.
But really, I'm just arguing preference at this point. I don't care if the Gunslinger puts out more damage than the Barbarian on a full attack. It doesn't make the Barbarian less awesome XD
You know I forgot to include witch hunter against the Daemon. Sloppy of me.That pushes my guy up to 93 DPR which is certainly better.
Though you have certainly shown my barb was poorly damage twinked (as I said, he is a mage killer, so his saves are stupid high).
But then we still have the issue of the double barrel pistol and DPR of 209.
First, my barbarian likely has roughly the same saves as yours, thanks to human's favored class bonus to superstition. I will also point out that both sets of saves are significantly better than the gunslinger's.
Actually it won't be as good. I have +4 against magic from Dwarf and steel soul. The superstition bonus is only +3 at that level if you cash in all human favored class bonuses. Close, but not quite. On the dwarf I cashed in the class bonuses for rage rounds.
And feel free to take another -6 to all attacks and -10 to off hand attacks, since you don't have two weapon fighting and you're not using a light weapon. Somehow I doubt that will result in 209 DPR.
I would certainly do that were I actually using two guns. However I am not, so it's not a concern.
Edit: And don't forget the -4 for soft cover for the demon.
That one I do have to worry about (assuming someone in front of him). Suppose I could add seeking to the gun and see what it does to the money situation (ran out of feats for improved precise shot).
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Backing up Dr. Buzzard on Quickdraw: "Actually I don't think it works that way. Quickdraw is just draw. It's not quick holster (or stow in general). I had looked into this for the purpose of a thrower, and it doesn't work that way by general consensus."
The loading of both guns still seems problematic to me. You can load one, but you only get one swift action a round, right? Also, it takes a swift action to recover a weapon with a weapon cord.
Search in the boards for the weapon cord trick to reload and TWF with pistols. It involves shooting with a weapon, dropping it and drawing back the other from the weapon cord. Rinse and repeat each round.
Always one hand free, technically TWFing. Not even a need for Quick Draw.Don't liking it ? Discover the mighty Glove of Storing then. Free action to hide a weapon and get it back. Don't try to argue, like it or not, that's allowed by RAW.
Also, most ranged builds rely on the eventuality that you are in a plain, with perfect sight over the target. There are things like cover, penalty to attack in melee, wind walls, strong winds and concealment in actual games, unless the DM is the kind to complain that the players are OP because 4vs1 ended badly for his mean BBEG.
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That one I do have to worry about (assuming someone in front of him). Suppose I could add seeking to the gun and see what it does to the money situation (ran out of feats for improved precise shot).
Edit: And don't forget the -4 for soft cover for the demon.
Seeking doesn't remove the cover and melee penalty for shooting at range, only miss chance. And nope, cover/melee penalty don't count as miss chance, they are modifiers, not percentile "miss chance".
How are you getting 209 with the above gunslinger build?
I have it at 92.93 DPR
The book does not say if both shots fired counts as 1 attack roll like manyshot works of it each bullet gets its own attack roll.
That is important because it would affect how crits work, and whether the dex to damage is added to each bullet or to the entire attack.
I will admit my gunslinger-fu is weak though.
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How are you getting 209 with the above gunslinger build?
I have it at 92.93 DPR
The book does not say if both shots fired counts as 1 attack roll like manyshot works of it each bullet gets its own attack roll.
That is important because it would affect how crits work, and whether the dex to damage is added to each bullet or to the entire attack.I will admit my gunslinger-fu is weak though.
This thread could interest you.
Short version os what I posted : In our group we treat attacks from double barelled weapons as single attack rolls ("both at once per action/attack" from the DB firearm descriptions), rolling damage twice on a hit.
So a hasted, rapid shot musketeer would have a final base attack bonus of +7/+7/+7/+2/-3 (12+1-2-4) when shooting with both barrels at the same time. Same level 12 gunslinger using Deadly Aim would have +3/+3/+3/-2/-7.
For critical hits, we make only one bullet crit by attack at most, as if using Manyshot. For misfires, only one attack can lead to a misfire, but in this case both bullets fail to hit as they are a single attack. This avoids ridiculous damage AND having his weapon exploding instantly in case of misfire (if the fumble was counted once per bullet, the weapon would explode in a single attack roll).
Oooh that works too totally didn't think of that probably because for some reason I never take quickdraw.Reloading two weapons when twf is iffy but works as long as you don't rule they have a specific attack order for the off hand aka prim.1->sec.1->prim.2->sec.2 ... and instead he can go prim.1->prim.2->sec.1->sec.2 and has weapon straps. But even without twf they can put out a mean hurting with double pistols.If he has quickdraw he should be able to holster/draw pistols as a free action too, so he can always holster one of them and reload the other.
It seems extremely silly though that that's possible from a realism standpoint.
I'd have to look at the rules for this works in the game, because I think there's already something like this for swords, but during the flintlock era, especially at sea, it was very common to use a weapon lanyard for your pistol.
Either a lanyard around the wrist, or more commonly on a baldric (for example, the baldric for your cutlass) so that you could easily switch weapons, either after firing a shot or if you needed to quickly draw your sword, without losing your pistol. Also, being on the lanyard meant it was quickly recoverable to switch back to in a hurry.
I think that at higher levels, gunslingers have a massive problem with AC since they only get light armor and need to stay close to get the touch attack.
Also, I bet fighters or rangers still do more damage with Manyshot.
Depends on what weapon the Slinger is using. And also, Distance doubles the range increment, meaning he doesn't even need to be all that close. Particularly if the campaign allows for advanced firearms.
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People have mentioned a feat/ability where you can spend a grit point to fire at Touch AC regardless of distance (I admit, I can't find it) . . .
It's not one grit point regardless of distance - it's one grit point per range increment, so for one grit point the gunslinger can touch attack at 40' rather than 20' for most pistols.
It's not really that difficult to find, though - it's the very first entry in the Deeds section of the Gunslinger class description (i.e. the section that talks about what grit can be used for).
I have it at 92.93 DPRInteresting, I have the DPR for the build at 84.4847563. (That's strictly using +15/+15/+10/+5 (1d8+16/20/x4).) (I believe my flaw was not counting signature deed deadly aim, that brings it up to roughly 120.)
Yeah, the extra 3d6 is pretty huge, it makes each hit do around 30 points of damage which is pretty serious. It gets the gunslinger well past an archer per shot (not to mention getting dex as a damage bonus, unless there's some trick which can give that to an archer).
can you give us more details then 'over the top'? How much damage was he doing? What feats did he have? etc.
Over the top is handing out on the order of 100 damage in a round on touch attacks. Nobody will convince me that is unbroken.
My sorcerer is level 10, but if he were level 11, he will be doing 100 dmg with touch attacks too.
As others had said, a Barbarian can do 100~ damage, and can do sustained.
A lvl 11 paladin knight, charging, can do 3d8+99 damage on one hit, against evil villains (which are a high percentage of them). Add 30 more if the target is undead, dragon, or outsider, which are a fairly percentage too.
A fighter with two hand weapon and overhead chop can do that as well.
I'm not an archer expert, but I'm sure they won't have any problem to do that much damage either.
Also yes the gunslinger does great against traditionally "hard" enemies that are big ass monsters with boatloads of AC but piss poor touch AC, but see his dpr against an enemy archer and he will cry for the 3 rounds it takes for the archer to murder him brutally or even vs a rogue/ninja or an ethereal target. The fact is that the barbarian wouldn't have those problems well he'd suffer vs ethereal but he will never run into mobs which pretty much butcher his hit chance just because of an alternate build.
There are a plethora of easy counters gunslingers not the least of which is ignoring the armored fellow and wailing on the gunslinger after all he can't move and full attack and his hp and ac won't be anything special they won't be terrible either but at 20ft he's a 5-10ft step away from most big baddies with reach.
I suppose that is true, but let's be honest, those encounters are pretty rare simply because encounters are designed around the expectation of normal damage type people. Thus in a way the gunslinger does so well because he sidesteps the normal order of things. It is ironic that encounters which your big bad barb would laugh at would stymie the gunslinger.
Personally my big grief is the ignoring of armor. That really distorts the class. I think it was a very serious error in the class design.
Of course being a shooter, I also have a large beef with the nonsensical idea of anyone reloading a muzzle loader multiple times in 6 second. Sure, if you happen to be the Flash, however actual humans, not so much (but this is a general grouse, well outside the scope of balance, as to do realistic reload durations would have made the firearms useless).
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can you give us more details then 'over the top'? How much damage was he doing? What feats did he have? etc.
Over the top is handing out on the order of 100 damage in a round on touch attacks. Nobody will convince me that is unbroken.
"Loading a Firearm: You need at least one hand free to load one-handed and two-handed firearms. In the case of two-handed firearms, you hold the weapon in one hand and load it with the other—you only need to hold it in two hands to aim and shoot the firearm. Loading siege firearms requires both hands, and one hand usually manipulates a large ramrod (which can be wielded as a club in combat). "
A relevant quote from the OGL Gunslinger section:
Lightning Reload (Ex): At 11th level, as long as the gunslinger has at least 1 grit point, she can reload a single barrel of a one-handed or two-handed firearm as a swift action once per round. If she has the Rapid Reload feat or is using an alchemical cartridge (or both), she can reload a single barrel of the weapon as a free action each round instead. Furthermore, using this deed does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
The bolded bit was discussed as important in the previous discussion I found on this subject. It would appear to indicate you can reload as a free action once per found.
As that is a bit ambiguous, I was hoping an errata or FAQ had addressed this point.
Not sure if anyone has pointed out what I bolded but isn't the gunslinger in question using a "double" barreled pistol?
My sorcerer is level 10, but if he were level 11, he will be doing 100 dmg with touch attacks too.
Really? Please explain...
Ok refined some numbers on my spreadsheet and remade a (mostly) pure damage barbarian.
Barbarian build
NOVA BARB CR 10
Male Human Barbarian 11
CN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +15
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DEFENSE
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AC 13, touch 7, flat-footed 11 (+6 armor, +2 Dex)
hp 137 (11d12+55)
Fort +15, Ref +9, Will +11
Defensive Abilities Eater of Magic (1/rage), Guarded Life, Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=15), Trap Sense +3; DR 2/—
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OFFENSE
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Spd 40 ft.
Melee +2 Furious Adamantine Nodachi +30/+22/+17 (1d10+29/15-20/x2) and
Unarmed Strike +22/+17/+12 (1d3+17/20/x2)
Special Attacks Witch Hunter (+3)
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STATISTICS
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Str 20/32, Dex 14, Con 14/20, Int 10, Wis 10/12, Cha 10
Base Atk +11; CMB +22 (+24 Sundering); CMD 29 (31 vs. Sunder)
Feats Furious Focus, Hammer the Gap, Improved Critical: Nodachi, Improved Sunder, Lunge, Power Attack -3/+6, Weapon Focus: Nodachi
Traits Deft Dodger, Indomitable Faith
Skills Acrobatics +1, Climb +24, Escape Artist +1, Fly +1, Intimidate +14, Perception +15, Ride +1, Stealth +1, Survival +15, Swim +24
Languages Common
SQ Fast Movement +10 (Ex), Rage (26 rounds/day) (Ex), Reckless Abandon (+/-3) (Ex), Superstition +7 (Ex)
Combat Gear +2 Furious Adamantine Nodachi, Rhino Hide; Other Gear Belt of Giant Strength, +6, Boots of Striding and Springing, Cloak of Resistance, +3, Headband of Inspired Wisdom, +2
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Damage Reduction (2/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Eater of Magic (1/rage) (Su) Once per rage, when a barbarian fails a saving throw against a spell, supernatural ability, or spell-like ability, she can reroll the saving throw against the effect (this is not an action). If she succeeds at the second saving throw, she is not affe
Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Guarded Life (11 HP) (Ex) If reduced below 0HP, convert some damage to non-lethal. Auto-stabilize below 0HP.
Hammer the Gap With a full-attack action, each hit against the same opponent deals extra damage
Improved Sunder You Sunder at +4 and don't cause an attack of opportunity.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=15) (Ex) Retain DEX bonus to AC when flat-footed. You cannot be flanked unless the attacker is Level 15+.
Lunge -2 to AC for +5' reach
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Rage (26 rounds/day) (Ex) +6 Str, +6 Con, +3 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Reckless Abandon (+/-3) (Ex) Trade AC penalty for to hit bonus while raging.
Superstition +7 (Ex) +7 save vs. magic while raging.
Trap Sense +3 (Ex) +3 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Witch Hunter (+3) (Ex) Bonus to damage spellcasters while raging.
I also had an error on my gunslinger which had his precision damage not being separated out from crit calculations.
This brings the two much closer.
Gunslinger 117.5
Barbarian 116.8
Of course you can still have the gunslinger use the cheese mastery double barrel pistol.
I also gave an archer a shot (ignore the pun). Someone else can likely do better, but this seemed solid.
Archer build
ARCHER2 CR 10
Male Human (Chelaxian) Fighter (Weapon Master) 11
NN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +7; Senses Perception +15
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DEFENSE
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AC 22, touch 16, flat-footed 16 (+6 armor, +6 Dex)
hp 92 (11d10+22)
Fort +12, Ref +13, Will +9
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OFFENSE
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Spd 30 ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike +11/+6/+1 (1d3+2/20/x2)
Ranged +2 Longbow, Composite (Str +2) +25/+25/+20/+15 (1d8+17/19-20/x3)
Special Attacks Reliable Strike: Longbow (2/day), Weapon Training +5: Longbow
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STATISTICS
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Str 14, Dex 20/24, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +11; CMB +13; CMD 29 (36 vs. Disarm36 vs. Sunder)
Feats Clustered Shots, Deadly Aim -3/+6, Greater Weapon Focus: Longbow, Improved Critical: Longbow, Improved Precise Shot, Iron Will, Manyshot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Snap Shot, Weapon Focus: Longbow, Weapon Specialization: Longbow
Traits Indomitable Faith, Observant: Perception
Skills Climb +16, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +14, Perception +15, Swim +16
Languages Common
SQ Gloves of Dueling, Weapon Guard +3: Longbow (Ex)
Combat Gear +2 Longbow, Composite (Str +2), +2 Mithral Chain Shirt, Adamantine Arrows (50), Arrows (50), Cold Iron Arrows (50), Mithral Arrows (50); Other Gear Belt of Incredible Dexterity, +4, Bracers of Archery, Greater, Cloak of Resistance, +3, Gloves of Dueling, Handy Haversack (1 @ 23.1 lbs)
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Clustered Shots Total damage from full-round ranged attacks before applying DR
Deadly Aim -3/+6 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Gloves of Dueling These supple leather gloves grant the wearer gains a +4 bonus to his CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder his wielded weapons, and effects that cause him to lose his grip on his weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesnít drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, his weapon training bonus increases by +2.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon; Cost 7,500 gp
Improved Precise Shot Ignore certain AC / concealment bonuses.
Manyshot You can shoot two arrows as the first attack of a full attack action.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into combat.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Reliable Strike: Longbow (2/day) (Ex) Reroll attack roll, critical confirmation, miss chance or damage roll for your chosen weapon
Snap Shot Threaten squares within 5 feet of you when wielding a ranged weapon
Weapon Guard +3: Longbow (Ex) +3 CMD vs. Disarm and Sunder or other effects targeting your chosen weapon.
Weapon Training +5: Longbow (Ex) +5 to hit and damage with your chosen weapon.
DPR 92.88
I'm a lot more comfortable with an archer doing that kind of damage. It's well behind the barbarian and doesn't have quite the same cheese factor of the gunslinger (though I admit I personally hate manyshot but included it).
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Ok refined some numbers on my spreadsheet and remade a (mostly) pure damage barbarian.
This brings the two much closer.
Gunslinger 117.5
Barbarian 116.8Of course you can still have the gunslinger use the cheese mastery double barrel pistol.
I also gave an archer a shot (ignore the pun). Someone else can likely do better, but this seemed solid.
A Mounted Fury Barbarian with the appropriate line of powers and Beast Totem as well can do some seriously nasty damage on a charge (even considering you only get a lance's doubled damage once). And including the pouncing horse...
Those seem equivalently broken build ideas to compare, if you really want to compare something to the Double-Barrel Pistol guy. It'll use some Feats on Extra Rage Power, and one on Boon Companion, but it should be workable and pretty nasty.
Really? Please explain...My sorcerer is level 10, but if he were level 11, he will be doing 100 dmg with touch attacks too.
Draconic sorcerer, scorching ray, empower spell, quicken spell, magic lineage (scorching ray), and craft rod, for cheap metamagic maximizing rods.
At lvl 11, scorching ray shoots 3 rays, 12d6+12. Empowered, and maximized with the rod, that's 6d6+90, or 111 damage.
If you need to go nova, Quickened maximized (with rod) scorching ray for another 84 dmg that round, means 195 damage per round.
I cannot sustain it for as long as a barbarian can (although 6 rounds at 111 dmg is quite decent imho), but on the other hand, he can haste the party, dispel magic, fly, be invisible, charm people or cast black tentacles, for example.
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Ok refined some numbers on my spreadsheet and remade a (mostly) pure damage barbarian.
This brings the two much closer.
Gunslinger 117.5
Barbarian 116.8Of course you can still have the gunslinger use the cheese mastery double barrel pistol.
I also gave an archer a shot (ignore the pun). Someone else can likely do better, but this seemed solid.
A Mounted Fury Barbarian with the appropriate line of powers and Beast Totem as well can do some seriously nasty damage on a charge (even considering you only get a lance's doubled damage once). And including the pouncing horse...
Those seem equivalently broken build ideas to compare, if you really want to compare something to the Double-Barrel Pistol guy. It'll use some Feats on Extra Rage Power, and one on Boon Companion, but it should be workable and pretty nasty.
Can't use the above. You don't get to pounce while mounted.
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A zen archer could probably do comparable damage while standing in melee range of the target, and with perfect strikes, probably get something around the same level of accuracy as a gunslingers ranged touch attack. Plus provide flanking, plus have better saves, plus have a better CMD vs being grappled or sundered... just some food for thought.
I removed a post and the replies to it. Don't be a jerk.
A zen archer could probably do comparable damage while standing in melee range of the target, and with perfect strikes, probably get something around the same level of accuracy as a gunslingers ranged touch attack. Plus provide flanking, plus have better saves, plus have a better CMD vs being grappled or sundered... just some food for thought.
OK, so I worked up a Zen Archer to see how this works out.
Zen Archer Build
Male Human (Garundi) Monk (Zen Archer) 11
LN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +9; Senses Perception +16
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DEFENSE
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AC 27, touch 25, flat-footed 19. . (+7 Dex, +2 natural, +2 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 80 (11d8+22)
Fort +11, Ref +17, Will +12
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OFFENSE
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Spd 60 ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike +10/+5 (1d10+2/20/x2)
Ranged +3 Longbow, Composite (Str +2) +19/+19/+19/+14/+14/+9 (1d8+16/20/x3)
Special Attacks Flurry of Blows +9/+9/+9/+4/+4/-1, Ki Strike, Lawful, Ki Strike, Magic, Trick Shot, Zen Archery
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STATISTICS
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Str 14, Dex 20/24, Con 12, Int 12/14, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +8; CMB +10; CMD 35
Feats Clustered Shots, Combat Reflexes (8 AoO/round), Deadly Aim -3/+6, Dodge, Focused Shot +2, Improved Precise Shot, Improved Unarmed Strike, Monk Weapon Proficiencies, Perfect Strike (3d20) (11/day), Pinpoint Targeting, Point Blank Master: Longbow, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Shot On The Run, Toughness +11, Weapon Focus: Longbow, Weapon Specialization: Longbow
Traits Highlander (hills or mountains), Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +21, Climb +16, Knowledge (History) +16, Knowledge (Religion) +16, Perception +16, Stealth +22, Swim +16 Modifiers Highlander (hills or mountains)
Languages Celestial, Common, Osiriani, Undercommon
SQ AC Bonus +4, Fast Movement (+30'), High Jump (+11) (Ex), Ki Archery (Su), Ki Arrows (Su), Ki Defense (Su), Ki Pool (Su), Reflexive Shot (Ex), Slow Fall 50' (Ex), Unarmed Strike (1d10), Wholeness of Body (11 HP/use) (Su)
Combat Gear +3 Longbow, Composite (Str +2), Adamantine Arrows (50), Arrows (50), Arrows (50), Cold Iron Arrows (50), Mithral Arrows (50); Other Gear Amulet of Natural Armor +2, Belt of Incredible Dexterity, +4, Bracers of Archery, Lesser, Cloak of Resistance, +3, Handy Haversack (1 @ 115 lbs), Headband of Vast Intelligence, +2: Knowledge (History), Ioun Stone, Dusty Rose Prism, Ring of Protection, +2, Wayfinder, Standard (empty)
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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AC Bonus +4 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Clustered Shots Total damage from full-round ranged attacks before applying DR
Combat Reflexes (8 AoO/round) You may make up to 8 attacks of opportunity per round, and may make them while flat-footed.
Deadly Aim -3/+6 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Fast Movement (+30') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +9/+9/+9/+4/+4/-1 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full action.
Focused Shot +2 Make a single bow or crossbow attack, adding your INT modifier to the damage roll as precision damage.
High Jump (+11) (Ex) +11 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Highlander (hills or mountains) +1 to Stealth checks, Stealth is always a class skill for you. Double this in hilly or rocky areas.
Improved Precise Shot Ignore certain AC / concealment bonuses.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Archery (Su) 1 Ki point: +50' range increment for bows.
Ki Arrows (Su) 1 Ki point: bow deals the same damage as unarmed strike.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Lawful (Su) At 10th level, a monk's unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) At 4th level, ki strike allows a monk's unarmed attacks to be treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Perfect Strike (3d20) (11/day) Roll 3d20 for an attack with a Monk weapon and use the higher as your attack roll, the next as your critical confirmation.
Pinpoint Targeting Standard action (may not move this round): target of your ranged attack loses armor, natural armor and shield bonuses to AC.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into combat.
Reflexive Shot (Ex) Make AoO with bow.
Shot On The Run When attacking with a ranged weapon, you can move - attack - move.
Slow Fall 50' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
Trick Shot (Su) 1-3 Ki points: ignore varying amounts of cover or concealment.
Unarmed Strike (1d10) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Wholeness of Body (11 HP/use) (Su) Self-heal monk level in damage for 2 Ki points.
Zen Archery (Su) Use WIS instead of DEX for ranged attacks with a bow.
Had to correct the flurry with bow since Hero Lab gets it wrong (got my damage wrong as well, meh). It is possible I got something wrong, but I think I've checked enough.
The DPR for a Zen Archer with all the tricks I cared to throw in (someone might well optimize better of course) is 64.8 DPR, which doesn't impress the heck out of me. AC is meh, though saves are solid enough (though you lack evasion).
No doubt someone knows Zen Archer tricks better, but they don't really look to be able to keep up damage wise.
Perfect stance only works once per round, so at most it can affect one shot. All you can do then is change the expected value of that shot(it certainly doesn't guarantee anything). It would add around 2 or 3 or the DPR when used. This still doesn't put you in the range of serious damage dealers.
Grr, botched the DPR on the Zen Archer. Forgot to adjust a cell. The DPR is 77.7. That's somewhat competitive, though well behind even the twinked archer fighter (much less the twinked barb and gunslinger).
Yes...They are very very broken...but broken in an awesome cool super-fun way.
I'm playing in a game where the thief does just as much damage a round as my gunslinger who uses two revolvers, where the summoner wears his edolin like bio-power-armor and two mages summon up between 4 to 10 creatures per combat and we're only 9th level.
So what is exactly broken about them?
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"They hit Touch AC, arrrrh !"... said my fellow players when the DMPC musketeer hitting Touch AC with a x4 weapon from 16 squares was first introduced. "He still shall misfire or it's broken, even at level 13 !"
Then the fighter archer reminded them that he obliterated enemies with a minimum average of 100 damage per round, and my one-session wizard sent 4 people in another plane, poisoned 3 to death and petrified 4 with a single prismatic spray in the middle of an army.
Now they don't say anything and just observe the fun and balanced gunslinger play along with everyone without overshining.
Again, you built your zen archer around things other than DPR. (A head band of intellect, really?) You've really got to optimize for DR at least as much as you did with your gunslinger. I'd trade the headband of intellect for a belt of strength, the belt of dexterity for wisdom (switching dex and wis). Take improved critical: bow.
You might want to read the feats. Focused Shot means I get Int bonus to damage with ranged attacks (though looking at the feat, it appears to be limited in use to only standard actions, so actually my DPR is higher than it would be).
Ok, didn't notice the swapping in of Wis for Dex on the archer. That's an odd twist. Means I'd have to completely rebuild it and focus on Wis, then swap out the belts and headbands. Not really sure I'd gain all that much (would likely drop the focused shot as well).
Meh, don't think I'll bother. I'll just pass. We'll assume the DPR isn't wildly off (accuracy would likely be about the same, and and a few points are gained here and there, maybe add 5 or 6 to the DPR).
Even so, zen archer isn't nearly as dominant at this particular level as your gunslinger. Zen archer was more playable 1 - 10. (Let's admit it, level 11 is a particularly good level for gunslingers.) Of course, we're also at the point where a ranged sohei is just stupidly good.
I'm building level 11 because it's where PFS 'ends' normal play(and where the gunslinger in question that started my inquiry was operating).
Actually if you end up focusing wisdom, you're gonna have a bad time on 1st and 2nd. You'd have to build up strength, use unarmed attacks and then morph into an archer at 3rd. That bit of weirdness means I don't think I'd particularly want to try the build.
But yes, gunslingers get a boost at 11. Then again the Zen archer is getting toys at both 10 and 11.
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No zen archer would waste that many points on dex, instead maxing wis, which is their archery attack stat. Also allows for good Ki pts. Wis should be highest, then str. A dwarf zen archer at 11th starting with an elite array should have about a 16 str, 25 wis and items like :
+4 wis headband
+2 str belt
monks robes
boots of speed
then use his ki bow ability to do 2d6 per arrow and you get something like this:
2d6+15 per arrow. Damage bonus comes from +3(bow), +3(str), +6 (DA), +1 (PBS), +2 (wep spec bow).
Improved critical feat plus 3 rolls from perfect strike to try for a crit should help his dps as well.
I think the reality of Pathfinder today with the books out there is that there are a lot of builds that become very powerful in select situations. Some classes require a certain break point for levels, abilities, feats, and items to combine to create this DPS output. I am not familiar with gunslingers but from others comments, it sounds like 11th level with those items and feats is about that point for the class.
Now, I might have missed this due to not reading through entirely, but how the drek is he getting his dex bonus to damage. Every time I read the guns section, the damage was straight up, unless it's from a Gunslinger ability I don't remember.
5th level Gunslingers get this:
Gun Training:... She gains a bonus equal to her Dexterity modifier on damage rolls when firing that type of firearm...|
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The pistolero build becomes ridiculously broken at level 13. Before that they are still pretty powerful, but nothing ridiculous.
Pathfinder as a game pretty much breaks after level 11 though, so what can you do.
At 13th level, with no chance of misfire, my "DPR" build would do 12 attacks
+23/+23/+23/+23/+18/+18/+18/+18/+13/+13/+13/+13
with 0 chance of a misfire, crit on a 19/20, so once every two rounds.
D6+3D6+16 Damage, or average rolls of 30 per shot, so 360 damage if every attack hits with no crit. Figure out the DPR on that, I'm guessing it's alot.
The weapons are both +5, so they ignore all DR except epic. Against the larger targets in the game, dragons, whatnot. He would do enough damage to kill CR 20's in a single round of shooting.
Feats (In no order), Mobility, Weapon Focus, Greater-TWF, TWF, Rapid Reload, Dodge, Deft-Shootist Deed, Improved TWF, Point-Blank Shot, Signature Deed (Up Close and Deadly), Improved Critical.
- How the heck are you getting a BAB so high ? A level 12 pistolero double-wielding DB pistols has a BAB of +1/+1/+1/-4/-9 +1/-4/-9 with haste, PBS, deadly aim, double tapping and rapid shot on.
- Where did you find two +5 weapons at level 13 ? >_> Can I have a free balor with my fighter too for DPR calculation ?- DB weapons shot twice per attack, as if using manyshot on each attack, you don't get two attack rolls per shot - that's the most reasonable interpretation of the rules since it doesn't allow for instantaneous misfire explosion nor nova critical hit.