Well, first of all, I think LoF uses 3.5 rules not Pathfinder. Assuming that you play using Pathfinder rules, you will likely need to do some conversion work to run LoF.
the maps are the best i've seen in an adventure path yet
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I have only skimmed the Jade Regent, but it looks pretty good. I already ran Legacy of Fire and it was awesome. It is 3.5 but a few folks have already done all of the conversions so there is little work there. If you like the arabian feel, then give it a shot. I am running Carrion Crown now and I am thinking about Jade Regent for the next one.
Jade Regent's subject matter is more earthly in origin. If you're comfortable with Norse, Eskimo and Japanese cultures, Jade Regent is far easier to run than if you have not paged through The Great Beyond or aren't as enthusiastic about Arabic culture.
Jade Regent is a travelogue of the world, whereas Legacy of Fire is a travelogue of some planes and one country.
Jade Regent ties itself into the characters very well. The NPCs are a toolbox to be used by the GM, and can help emphasize the campaign's important parts much more easily. If your PCs like being the bosses of a ton of NPCs and having a lot of them weigh in and like the prospect of being to roleplay with one NPC for an entire 6 books, then Jade Regent delivers strongly.
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Well, if you like your evil mastermind to send one ninja at a time to wipe out the threat to his rulership, rather than sending all the ninjas at once, then Jade Regent is for you.
I liked the first Jade Regent book, but the second book was frustrating for me. The BBEG organization is run by a powerful intelligent leader who has had 60 years to amass power and prepare for the sole objective of killing survivors of the former royal families of Minkai. The followers are 100% loyal. Their network of spies extensive. Yet when the adventurers walk into town announcing "Hey, here we are!", they sit back and only present minor inconveniences to the people they should be exterminating.
They could have come up with a reason why the bad guys don't just gather their forces and wipe out the players, but they didn't. Even when the players assault their fortress, they don't even bother to lock the front door or gather their forces to retaliate.
If you enjoy sweeping logic under the rug, then maybe you can handle Jade Regent. I ran book 2 pretty much straight up, hoping to grind through it, but it ate away at me where I wasn't enjoying GMing it.
In my opinion, after Kingmaker, LoF and CotCT look to be the best bets.
My advice is to read into the AP enough to know that you will continue to like it past the first book.
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Maybe it has something to do with their fear/respect for the Ulfen powers-that-be in Kalsgard?
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Jade Regent is a good AP. It could be great, IMO, but the addition of NPC and Caravan mechanics leave a lot to be desired. Luckily, you can easily modify or drop either or both (Personally, I removed caravan combat and NPC relationship scores - having a 'mobile village' of interesting NPCs that grows as you travel is wonderful for roleplaying purposes, but the additional mechanics they introduce are unnecessary, unless improvising and role-playing are anathema to your group).
The locals and encounter setpieces, however, are great. An abandoned swamped castle ruled by a menagerie of monsters, a Viking metropolis thick with ninja, the nigh-impenetrable icy wastes of an alien north, a descendant city on the edge of horse-nomad territory, a Miyazaki-style forest of mysterious spirits, an ancient prison taken over by two warring factions, an evil fortress within that prison that puts the hell of upside-down sinners to shame, and that's just the first four books that we've gotten through!
Even if you didn't want to run the plot of Jade Regent, the journey over the top of the world is quite the epic. All of my players agree that they have traveled further in this campaign than any other, despite playing Spelljammer and Star Wars - it feels like you have progressed over these vast expanses, and that feeling is rewarding, on some level.
TL;DR - Jade Regent needs a little work, but it's got good stuff in it.
My players are shocked that this might be the first campaign (AP) where horses and mounted combat feats and classes (e.g. Cavalier) won't be a waste.
I agree with the other posts: the caravan and relationship rules are a little "off", but the designers (in all their wisdom) haven't embedded them into the campaign and they can easily be 'hand-waived'.
One cannot be too boss when charging.
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Well, if you like your evil mastermind to send one ninja at a time to wipe out the threat to his rulership, rather than sending all the ninjas at once, then Jade Regent is for you.
I liked the first Jade Regent book, but the second book was frustrating for me. The BBEG organization is run by a powerful intelligent leader who has had 60 years to amass power and prepare for the sole objective of killing survivors of the former royal families of Minkai. The followers are 100% loyal. Their network of spies extensive. Yet when the adventurers walk into town announcing "Hey, here we are!", they sit back and only present minor inconveniences to the people they should be exterminating.
They could have come up with a reason why the bad guys don't just gather their forces and wipe out the players, but they didn't. Even when the players assault their fortress, they don't even bother to lock the front door or gather their forces to retaliate.
If you enjoy sweeping logic under the rug, then maybe you can handle Jade Regent. I ran book 2 pretty much straight up, hoping to grind through it, but it ate away at me where I wasn't enjoying GMing it.
In my opinion, after Kingmaker, LoF and CotCT look to be the best bets.
My advice is to read into the AP enough to know that you will continue to like it past the first book.
That's...not how I read the intro. The powerful, intelligent leader believes the Royal Clan was wiped out like 60 years ago and is consolidating power via the ninja clan over Kalsgard when suddenly, someone messes with the magic mcguffin at the end of book 1.
They don't know the Royal Clan is still alive, but they DO know the mcguffin is in play. So they go looking for it and the PCs caravan is one of (presumably) several leads/possibilities (I dropped in the White Ravens for one to foreshadow the next adventure path; Kelda Oxgutter is another likely candidate for investigation). The Notoriety system is there to represent how sure the Ninjas are that the PCs are who they are looking for, and/or that they have a connection to this caravan beyond just arriving in town with it.
Did you miss the part about reinforcements for Ravenscraeg once it's assaulted? They do indeed begin to gather their forces once they get hit, those same forces being the folks who are out gathering information on the PCs and other groups.
What you seem to be assuming is the PCs waltz into Kalsgard, openly and loudly proclaiming 'Let all bow before her divinity the last true Heir of the Amatatsu Clan and her magical seal. By the way would any of you happen to know where to find an ancestral Katana or a guide over the Crown of the World?' Completely ignoring the Advice of the NPC's, and even in that event, wouldn't the powerful-yet-wise leader of the Frozen Shadows want to look before she landed on such a seemingly perfect target? I mean is life EVER that easy? So the PCs could still get a shot at winning, if they're quick. (and lucky.)
Well, if you like your evil mastermind to send one ninja at a time to wipe out the threat to his rulership, rather than sending all the ninjas at once, then Jade Regent is for you.
Everyone knows a lone ninja is more deadly than an army of ninja. Conservation of ninjustsu!
Jade Regent can be good, but it's almost essential to make changes to keep things interesting, especially in book 3.
You'll have to come up with ways for the NPCs that follow you around to actually play a part in the storyline (beyond occasionally railroading the players into doing what the book says they should do next). You'll have to make the enemy fortresses more dynamic - if the players attack and then retreat to rest, the enemies should take precautions rather than just waiting in their rooms to be killed one at a time. And you'll have to find ways to improve or replace the caravan battles.
I'll say that the level of awareness the Jade Regent and the Five Storms have of the caravan vary wildly. On one hand, when the PC's come to Kalsgard, it is strongly implied that the Five Storms in Minkai haven't yet picked up on the seal having reappeared, because they have grown lax. Only Kimandatsu, who has been on constant outlook for it, has an idea that a new heir to the jade throne is coming through her town.
On the other hand, she seems to not contact her superiors about it, which is more than slightly off.
Later on, it seems that the Five Storms are well aware of Ameiko & Company traveling over the north pole and through Hongal, but they only send minor squads or single minions after them. That kind of breaks verisimilitude, but it can be handwaved in that they are mostly unsure about the exact location of the caravan.
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TL;DR - Jade Regent needs a little work, but it's got good stuff in it.
This is my experience, too. To be a little more specific:
(1) I made a stab at using the Relationship rules. My players are not out-of-control min-maxers, but eventually they succumbed to number-crunching and the monotony of sucking up with gifts. I was unhappy, but continued until my players actually started expressing peevishness that their gifts were not 100 percent good for bonuses to their Relationship rolls. At that point, I chucked the system wholesale and it has not been missed.
(2) Caravan combat rules, as written, are an absolute joke. I rewrote them -- took about 20 minutes total -- and although caravan combat is still problematic (see below), it's no longer because of the system. The caravan's combat at D--- M--'s D---, which we did just this past Sunday, was actually pretty tense and exciting.
(3) The biggest thing I've struggled with is when the adventure calls for encounters to be against the PCs ... even though the PCs are with the caravan. People have addressed this in many ways -- including running all the NPCs in a massive combat (the very idea of which makes me shudder, but more power to 'em) -- but what I did was prepare, in advance, plausible reasons to separate the PCs from the caravan, even if it's only for two hours and a mile's distance. As long as you build in instances where this happens and the PCs aren't attacked, which I have, it doesn't strain suspension of disbelief too much.
Anyway, we've really enjoyed the AP. This is the only AP I've ever read or run (unless you count all the Freeport stuff back in 3E), so I don't have much to compare it to. But it's been fun for us.
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Jade Regent has a bunch of fantastic elements that make the story as damn near epic as they get IMO.
Travel to the far reaches through inhospitable terrain? Check.
Unknown heir to a kingdom under seige by foreign powers? Check.
Vikings? Check. Ninja? Check. Goblins? Check.
Viking-Ninja Goblins? No, but it's a great idea!
I could go on. I think if you're ok with dipping your fantasy into the Japanese analog, then you'll enjoy it. It is just...well...epic.
-Vaz
PS: While not required, I'd certainly ask players to refrain from making characters who hail from the lands of Tian Xia. Seems once they find out the backstory of the game you end up with an entire party or close to either "Kaijitsu relatives" or swarms of PC's "exiled and wanting to return".
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I'd certainly ask players to refrain from making characters who hail from the lands of Tian Xia. Seems once they find out the backstory of the game you end up with an entire party or close to either "Kaijitsu relatives" or swarms of PC's "exiled and wanting to return".
Okay ... but what's wrong with that? There are expatriots of Tian Xia in Avistan, and if they want to go home, there are worse ways than hooking up with a caravan heading that way. Sounds to me like you're advising that a GM say "no" to a player (or players) with rock-solid in-character motivation to drive them along the AP, and I'm not sure why you'd advise that.
Just wanted to say thanks for some of the advice in this thread. I'm trying out both the relationship and caravan rules in a play by post game. If they work, great, but if it bogs down the already slow pace of a play by post game, I might do something else. So far, the players have been great at interacting with the NPCs (I'm actually using message board avatars to 'post' as Sandru, Ameiko, Koya, and Shalelu) so hopefully they'll be able to roll with the other rules. Also, Skitterfoot wound up being a party mascot/pseudo-familiar to our sorcerer, which is a ton of fun for me as a GM to roleplay.
My biggest worry is the trek across the Crown of the World is going to require some deft time management in order to keep the pace of the story going. Play by posts can peter out quickly, so I hope I can keep trekiing across ice and snow engaging and interesting.
We've been playing for about a month, and we haven't hit Brinewall yet, which is a little troubling, but I think the game is hitting its stride now. Overall, it's the one adventure path I've always wanted to do, and the story feels really epic in scope.
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I'd certainly ask players to refrain from making characters who hail from the lands of Tian Xia. Seems once they find out the backstory of the game you end up with an entire party or close to either "Kaijitsu relatives" or swarms of PC's "exiled and wanting to return".Okay ... but what's wrong with that? There are expatriots of Tian Xia in Avistan, and if they want to go home, there are worse ways than hooking up with a caravan heading that way. Sounds to me like you're advising that a GM say "no" to a player (or players) with rock-solid in-character motivation to drive them along the AP, and I'm not sure why you'd advise that.
You're assuming their motivations were "rock-solid". If even one of them presented to me in such a way that you did I could have been completely on board. Granted, my situation was more based on my player's and I should have reworded my previous comment with less broad strokes.
I found, for me, one of the best parts of running Jade Regent was introducing the characters to a culture completely alien to them. Having been running it for two groups, I found the group of non-Tien to have had a far more enjoyable time as they explored, learned, and fumbled in the social graces. YMMV.
I apologize again for the broad strokes. Just speaking from personal experiences.
-Vaz
...I'd certainly ask players to refrain from making characters who hail from the lands of Tian Xia. Seems once they find out the backstory of the game you end up with an entire party or close to either "Kaijitsu relatives" or swarms of PC's "exiled and wanting to return".
I kept this in mind while drawing up the 8 pregen PCs we included in the Imperial Heroes product from Legendary Games. Among those characters, there's a brother-sister tandem named Akobi and Jin who are meant to be half-Tian and half-Varisian (though, obviously, we couldn't call them that, because it would infringe on Paizo's IP). In essence, you can think of them as half-Asian. Their mother came from Tian Xia and their father was a caravan master among the Varisians. That's how the two PCs were born. Also, in their backstory, it's implied both their parents perished in the upheaval surrounding Korvosa during the events in Curse of the Crimson Throne. Now homeless, Akobi and Jin have relocated to Sandpoint to settle in with friends of their family...i.e., Ameiko Kaijitsu...and that's how they become part of the Jade Regent campaign. The cool thing about these two characters is that they're initially presented as Western concepts (i.e., Akobi is a cavalier and Jin is a rogue). However, there's an opportunity to recast them as Eastern analogues instead, with Akobi becoming a samurai and Jin becoming a ninja. That's a twist which is made possible, because both the samurai and ninja classes are simply variants of the cavalier and rogue classes. So, it's a useful way to spin things, either from the beginning of the campaign...or sometime down the road when they reconnect with the culture of their mother's homeland.
I also drew up another character concept for a wandering monk named Masato from Tian Xia who was sent on a multi-year sojourn to enlighten and broaden his mind, while experiencing everything the world had to offer as part of his faith in Irori. One of Masato's rivals actually arranged his departure to get him out of the way so the villain could influence things back home without his interference. Masato's journey brought him over the Crown of the World and into Varisia as a uniquely different (but effective) caravan guard. Around the time that Jade Regent kicks off, Masato's sojourn is coming to an end and its time for him to return home. With Ameiko and her friends planning a journey to Minkai, he's more than happy to go along with them. Of course, his character will have some prior knowledge of Tian Xia, but much will have changed during his absence. Plus, even when he was in Minkai, his cloistered life in the monastery didn't grant him as much insight into the political world of his homeland as you might normally expect.
Bottom line: It's entirely possible to still create characters with connections to Tian Xia for Jade Regent. You just have to design their backstories in a way that supports the campaign more than it conflicts or threatens it. I know a lot of players vastly prefer to create their own characters and make up their own histories and motivations. However, for campaigns the size and scale of Jade Regent, I think it's important that a GM get in there and give them a lot more guidance. You've basically got an opportunity to improve your players' game experience by helping them find ways to build PCs that harmonize and add to the campaign's plotline. That's what we've been striving to do with the pregen PCs we've done so far with the AP plug-in series at Legendary Games. Many of us wrote chapters in the AP (i.e., Jason did The Hungry Storm and I wrote The Empty Throne). So, we've usually got a lot of insight not only into what'll work well with those adventures, but with the entire campaign based on our knowledge and understanding of the AP outline we were given as authors.
So, not to turn this into a marketing blitz, but if you haven't had a chance, check out the Imperial Heroes product I mentioned above. Even if your players aren't interested in how those pregens were designed, at the very least, their backstories could inspire different ways to craft more solid character connections to the AP's storyline. Even GMs could find them useful as extra NPCs to round out that "West meets East" theme which runs throughout the campaign.
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Jade Regent Pros (in order of relevance):
- The best episodic dungeons seen to date. No really, they're each and every one excellent in concept, design and execution. I love them from start to finish.
- Large outdoors areas/travel sections, finally something for mounted characters to shine - and in one case to rule outright. Not even in Kingmaker this element was so clearly defined.
- Lots of roleplaying occasions, from diplomacy to romance, from information gathering to culture clash moments. And quite a few battles too. Very good mix of roll-playing rewards and role-playing rewards. Also, great loot.
- A thematic factor (the caravan) that has its own rules and in the medium-long run provides something the players rely on and care for, with a growing cast of NPCs they have a word in choosing. Even better than a homebase.
Jade Regent Cons (in order of relevance):
- Every issue has at least one narrative "chokepoint" in which specific events happen to further the story no matter what, NPCs act as deus ex machina to provide solutions the PCs won't happen to find otherwise, and in general the characters have to go that one way otherwise they've screwed the campaign. It's not blatant railroading, but the authors expect the DM to orchestrate the game in very specific ways, even if the players won't like that NPCs, don't care about that problem, and so on.
It happens too many times to be a minor quibble, and in fact has ruined the AP for me.
- The long trek across the continents might bore some players, while others might find the sudden disappearance of the so far defining element (the caravan) a bit disappointing.
Also, the large cast of NPCs might strain the DM and tip the balance badly in some encounters.
- The Tian part of the AP feels a bit under-represented against the first half of the campaign (voyage), in particular the last two issues; the DM may easily expand this second part with his own ideas, bringing the voyage/oriental ratio to a 3/5 instead of the actual 3/3, but he's on his own.
- A bit of a grind when it comes to managing the caravan against attacks or handling resources, and the subsystem can be abused; also the romance subsystem is not so great.
I agree with both points... You don't want all of the PCs to be Minkanite expats.
But a key point here is, in character the N/PCs do not know they are heading towards Minkai until the end of the first book or Brinewall is completed. The road from Riddleport to Brinewall and the continuation to the crossroad to Jol is not well trodden.
The logic of a Masato hitching a ride to Brinewall and then Minkai is a bit obtuse. A ship to Kalsgard from Sandpoint or Magnimar would make more sense. Of course, if the logic is to help Ameiko or something, it may work...
The other thing I would recommend is have the PCs pick varying NPCs to be buddies with, my pbp is an Ameiko love fest and one guy wants to date her so the rest barely rp... I really like the AP, I am running it on the boards and in RL and have used it to teach with... so its baller...
BTW, The Baleful Coven was an awesome plugin and my players really loved it...
I DM'ed both Legacy of Fire and Jade Regent from start to finish. Heartily recommend both, although they do have some issues. Concerning JR (Spoilers, obviously):
- The whole campaign is based on the destiny of an NPC. Although Ameiko is pretty dang cool and there is a possibility for the players to take her place, it still detracts from the player characters as the true stars of the campaign. Now there are some explanations as to why Ameiko hangs back and lets the PCs do all the heavy lifting, but in chapters five and six it kinda kills suspension of disbelief to let her do that. If I were to run JR again, I would let one of the PCs be the Amatatsu heir.
- Paizo is very fond of subsystems for their APs. This time, it's relationship scores and the infamous caravan rules. I ditched them both and never regretted it.
- Sandru, Koya and Shalelu are introduced with much fanfare. While they are good as NPCs, they never actually do something (as written).
- Chapter four includes one very, VERY long dungeon crawl. While it's creepy and has some great ideas, it really drags on and on.
- Final encounter should be a pushover for most groups that make it there.
Other than that, one of my favorite APs.
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I agree with both points... You don't want all of the PCs to be Minkanite expats.
But a key point here is, in character the N/PCs do not know they are heading towards Minkai until the end of the first book or Brinewall is completed. The road from Riddleport to Brinewall and the continuation to the crossroad to Jol is not well trodden.
The logic of a Masato hitching a ride to Brinewall and then Minkai is a bit obtuse. A ship to Kalsgard from Sandpoint or Magnimar would make more sense. Of course, if the logic is to help Ameiko or something, it may work...
The other thing I would recommend is have the PCs pick varying NPCs to be buddies with, my pbp is an Ameiko love fest and one guy wants to date her so the rest barely rp... I really like the AP, I am running it on the boards and in RL and have used it to teach with... so its baller...
BTW, The Baleful Coven was an awesome plugin and my players really loved it...
And my group has a sylph sky druid who I convinced should have a wizard father named Tornaq, so I'll probably get good use out of Under Frozen Stars, which I hear is also great. And going on the record that I really love the work of everyone from Legendary Games, both their Paizo work and their LG work (I've never seen anything of less than top quality by Jason or Neil), I'm with you on this one particular point Insnare. It might work for other groups, but someone like Masato or, say, pregen Hayato joining the caravan before Brinewall (when the caravan had no plans to go to Minkai yet) makes no sense to me (though I think the idea for the twins is awesome, Neil!), and the first thing I did when I started my JR group last month was to make sure everyone in my group was on the same page, and they agreed with me on this, so I guess it varies based on your group. I managed to get mostly characters with huge hooks to the campaign while being Westerners (like Tornaq's daughter above), even the one guy deadset on playing a ninja (he wound up being Tsutamu's grandson, raised in Magnimar), and for that I'm grateful to my players for working with me.
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I DM'ed both Legacy of Fire and Jade Regent from start to finish. Heartily recommend both, although they do have some issues. Concerning JR (Spoilers, obviously):
- The whole campaign is based on the destiny of an NPC. Although Ameiko is pretty dang cool and there is a possibility for the players to take her place, it still detracts from the player characters as the true stars of the campaign. Now there are some explanations as to why Ameiko hangs back and lets the PCs do all the heavy lifting, but in chapters five and six it kinda kills suspension of disbelief to let her do that. If I were to run JR again, I would let one of the PCs be the Amatatsu heir.
In one of my groups, one of the players replaced Ameiko. I knew from Step 0 she wanted to play a Kaijitsu so I worked closely with her to craft a backstory; Ameiko has passed on, and she's in Sandpoint for legal reasons regarding her estate.
- Paizo is very fond of subsystems for their APs. This time, it's relationship scores and the infamous caravan rules. I ditched them both and never regretted it.
I also ditched both and never looked back. I used it as a guideline and found keeping track of Relationship Scores and whatnot to be more then I wanted to deal with.
- Sandru, Koya and Shalelu are introduced with much fanfare. While they are good as NPCs, they never actually do something (as written).
As written, agreed. The caravan NPC's were nice to have for those few moments when I had a guest player. One of the really nice things about this AP is that it made it easy to introduce a new player, a guest, or excuse a player's absence, just by virtue of having the caravan present.
- Chapter four includes one very, VERY long dungeon crawl. While it's creepy and has some great ideas, it really drags on and on.
Yeah, I felt that way about Brinewall Keep as well. I ended up eliminating some content that was integral to the storyline just to keep the game moving at a reasonable pace. No one was the wiser.
- Final encounter should be a pushover for most groups that make it there.
Other than that, one of my favorite APs.
Haven't gotten there yet, but I've so far loved everything about this AP. It combined a lot of elements that are standard fantasy fare and integrated them into a foreign culture. Made for some great roleplay encounters.
-Vaz
The logic of a Masato hitching a ride to Brinewall and then Minkai is a bit obtuse.
It might work for other groups, but someone like Masato or, say, pregen Hayato joining the caravan before Brinewall (when the caravan had no plans to go to Minkai yet) makes no sense...
Thanks for the kudos on the LG plug-ins for Jade Regent, guys. On this particular subject, I'm unsure why you guys feel the inclusion of Masato is illogical. As-written, he has the Caravan Guard campaign trait. So, having him journey with Sandru and the caravan to Brinewall and ultimately Minkai seems perfectly in line to me. There are easy hooks in his design to accommodate plausible reasons for joining both the campaign and the caravan.
As for a pregen Hayato? Yeah...maybe not so much. But that's why we created Imperial Heroes. These pregen PCs are meant to replace the Paizo iconics. :-)
The logic of a Masato hitching a ride to Brinewall and then Minkai is a bit obtuse.It might work for other groups, but someone like Masato or, say, pregen Hayato joining the caravan before Brinewall (when the caravan had no plans to go to Minkai yet) makes no sense...Thanks for the kudos on the LG plug-ins for Jade Regent, guys. On this particular subject, I'm unsure why you guys feel the inclusion of Masato is illogical. As-written, he has the Caravan Guard campaign trait. So, having him journey with Sandru and the caravan to Brinewall and ultimately Minkai seems perfectly in line to me. There are easy hooks in his design to accommodate plausible reasons for joining both the campaign and the caravan.
As for a pregen Hayato? Yeah...maybe not so much. But that's why we created Imperial Heroes. These pregen PCs are meant to replace the Paizo iconics. :-)
I'll fess up that I don't own the product and was basing my assessment on this quote:
Around the time that Jade Regent kicks off, Masato's sojourn is coming to an end and its time for him to return home. With Ameiko and her friends planning a journey to Minkai, he's more than happy to go along with them.
as was probably Insnare above.
If it's the case that he has no idea that Sandru's caravan was going to eventually going to go to Minkai but signed up as a guard independently due to his previous experience as a caravan guard, then it makes perfect sense that he would do so, though the fact that this caravan then winds up going to Minkai, where he wanted to go anyway, falls into a level of coincidence my group wouldn't be comfortable with (like Hayato--Hayato's official story overall is actually surprisingly perfect for fighting the Jade Regent, since he becomes a ronin over the dirty politics of a corrupt magistrate installed under the Jade Regent's regime, but the level of coincidence involved with his joining this group that starts off doing something else and then ends up fighting the Jade Regent was too great for the player thinking of playing Hayato and myself). Also, we had agreed that we want the Crown of the World crossing to come across as a harrowing experience that only the toughest survive, so having a PC who's done it already at 1st level with the caravan wasn't a theme we wanted. Same with the fact that we thought it would be fun to have the characters not know about Tian Xia until they experience it in character through Forest of Spirits, Tide of Honor, and your awesome Empty Throne, so that would have been another strike for this particular character for our group. If a new player had joined us with a copy of Imperial Heroes and asked to play Masato, I would have discussed the themes and had a talk with that player and tried to see if we could work out something else, whereas for most of the others (I think all the others except the goblin ninja) I would have just said "Heck yeah!".
That said, he sounds like an awesome fit for other groups that weren't emphasizing these same themes as ours was, and didn't care about the coincidence level, and I think that one of the best thing about your pregen sets is that you give way more than most groups need and all very flavorful, so they can pick the ones that work best for them out of the set.
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The logic of a Masato hitching a ride to Brinewall and then Minkai is a bit obtuse.It might work for other groups, but someone like Masato or, say, pregen Hayato joining the caravan before Brinewall (when the caravan had no plans to go to Minkai yet) makes no sense...Thanks for the kudos on the LG plug-ins for Jade Regent, guys. On this particular subject, I'm unsure why you guys feel the inclusion of Masato is illogical. As-written, he has the Caravan Guard campaign trait. So, having him journey with Sandru and the caravan to Brinewall and ultimately Minkai seems perfectly in line to me. There are easy hooks in his design to accommodate plausible reasons for joining both the campaign and the caravan.
As for a pregen Hayato? Yeah...maybe not so much. But that's why we created Imperial Heroes. These pregen PCs are meant to replace the Paizo iconics. :-)
Something like Masato would be fine by me. I haven't read your product yet, but based off what you've posted, he has a solid backstory. My "complaint" (for lack of a better word) is that when discussing characters with people at Session 0 the overwhelming desire for the majority to play expatriates was disconcerting.
-Vaz
My "complaint" (for lack of a better word) is that when discussing characters with people at Session 0 the overwhelming desire for the majority to play expatriates was disconcerting.
I think a lot of that is happening because everytime Paizo introduces an AP like Jade Regent...or Reign of Winter...and so on...i.e., basically APs which take place in a particular part of Golarion (or at least seem to), players immediately assume they're going to get to play characters from those places moreso than characters who adventure there...which implies they might be outsiders going into that region rather than natives. And, quite frankly, some of the plotlines for certain APs aren't always oriented to support the assumption you start out there. And that's particularly true for journey-based APs like Jade Regent and Reign of Winter.
So, for Jade Regent, it's really not the "Tian Xia" AP. Just like Reign of Winter isn't really the "Irrisen" AP. Instead, Jade Regent is more like a "West Meets East" AP...which means your PCs need to start out in Avistan...i.e., the West. And, it's only after the first three books are done that you finally get into the East and experience that culture. So, consequently, if you want to play an Eastern-themed PC as a samurai, ninja, or monk, you've got to have a good reason for why they start out in Avistan. Thus, for me, I thought it was key to explore at least a couple of methods for doing that in Imperial Heroes. That's why I created a brother-sister tandem whose mother was from Tian Xia...very much in the same vein as Ameiko's backstory...but they had never visited before. And, I also wanted to create at least one character who does come from that part of the world. But, his cloistered life as a monk in a monastery and the years he spent on sojourn in traveling across the Crown of the World and into Avistan, puts him nearly as "out of touch" with his native culture as the non-Tian PCs in the campaign.
To me, those are the most viable ways of approaching it. But, as with any campaign, it's imperative that a GM get out in front by examining the entire storyline of an AP so he can figure how to set expectations for his players...all in the hopes that they'll then create characters which are ideally suited to the campaign. The pregen products from Legendary Games are especially focused to help guide you and your players in this regard. Your players don't necessarily have to play these pregens. They may just get some ideas for how to build certain types of characters similar to them. Or, they may get stronger ideas for how to spin a credible backstory for a character they want to make up themselves. Or, they might discover some intriguing ways for how to apply a certain campaign trait to such a PC.
There are multiple design goals behind a product like Imperial Heroes...and I've been trying to make sure we hit all of them to make it as useful as possible. Otherwise, anyone could slap together a handful of pregenerated PCs for you and call them appropriate for Jade Regent. Instead, we're trying to make sure we give you well-thought out, credible, supportive PC concepts which we know will play well across the entire storyline of the campaign. And, because we wrote at least a third of these APs, we feel confident we can provide that for everyone. That's what makes this product line viable and interesting for us...and apparently for many others.
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I just checked out the product page for Imperial Heroes and while pregens aren't really my style, I like the assortment you have and am chomping at the bit to have a look inside, specifically for the flavor/backstory elements. As you mentioned above, it might be worth having on hand for players to get ideas from, or at least get them focused.
Player's can USUALLY sell me on anything so long as they can explain to me why and how it works. The issue I generally end up having is they all feel the need to have the "Special Snowflake" attribute and have the overwhelming desire to play something completely out of left field.
Looking forward to checking out your product. It's tempting the folds of my wallet.
-Vaz
Looking forward to checking out your product. It's tempting the folds of my wallet.
That's great to hear.
If you're running Jade Regent and you like Imperial Heroes, you may want to check out the rest of the Far East AP Plug-In series, as well.
- There are two side-trek adventures (one by Jason Nelson called Under Frozen Stars and another by Matt Goodall called The Baleful Coven). There's even a third in the works (by Jim Groves), which will focus primarily on enhancing the caravan travel encounters.
- There's also a really interesting rules expansion called The Way of Ki which lets you expand the use of ki-related abilities so all classes can use some measure of them (though, at the expense of feats and/or other class abilities). That product was designed so Western-style characters could pick up some Eastern-style abilities after absorbing the culture during their adventures.
- There are also some interesting spells, magic items, and Asian-flavored philosophies in Meditations of the Imperial Mystics.
Bottom Line: We've put a lot of effort into all these products and they've proven to be fairly popular with those who discover them, as evidenced by the continuous stream of 5-star reviews we've received. Even renowned reviewer Endzeitgeist has given many of them his highest rating plus seal of approval. So, we really have done everything we can to put as much quality and value into these things as we possibly can. That's because we're as passionate about these APs as any player out there...and that's because we've already invested a lot of ourselves into them while writing parts of the AP.
That said, I don't mean to turn every AP discussion thread into a marketing advertisement for Legendary Games. There are product forums for that. And you (or anyone else reading along here) should feel free to ignore anything we've done which doesn't fit how you plan on running your version of the campaign. Read the reviews for our stuff and determine from that if you want to give something a try. And, then write your own review, both to let others know what you think and to give us feedback so we can adjust how we're doing them for future APs. But, more importantly than anything, make the AP yours and make it as enjoyable as you can for your players.
My two cents,
--Neil
Once again big ups to the baleful coven... And big ups to Neil and the rest who are always available to answer questions, add info and to engage in discourse with people like me(I have been working in business for 10 years and to get the ears of the creative people is far from the norm)...
My JR campaign has been a open door group where people come and go at a whim. Our plot hooks for PCs have been cell mates of Kelda Oxgutter, where the PC was a an Oracle from Osirion whose ship got shipwrecked off of Brinewall... A druid from Mammoth Lordlands and a Irriseni Ranger who had a blood vendettas against Thorborg Silverskorr and most recently a cleric who just happened to be collecting firewood nearby when the Baleful Coven setup their alternative plane and was sucked into the plane.
By the time you get to Brinewall most of the campaign traits become harder and harder to explain. Shalelu and maybe Sandru can be possible but not Koya or Ameiko.
I think that means that new characters who join the campaign after the caravan sets out cannot reasonably take the campaign traits that are supposed to justify their presence. "My new character is Ameiko's younger sister, who just happened to be passing."
True, thats what I meant. Sandru and Shalelu can and may have traveled as far as the Lands of the Linnorm Kings in the past but Ameiko has stayed put since the cannibals and furthermore, Koya has not been anywhere but Southern Varisia.
Not to say you couldn't be creative, sure Ameiko's father could have had a baby mama on a business trip to Kalsgard working on a glass deal but you would have to alter the relationship, most illegitimate children despise their true born siblings. In that case you need to be extremely careful with the story.
But it then becomes extremely convoluted when if you need to roll a pc, you may as well come up with a more believable backstory and go. You could also use the traits and use them for the other PCs along the way like, Ulf or Ukshakka or the Kitsune in the fourth book. I would then adjust the relationship scores accordingly for a shorter amount of time with the character. I hope that is a good enough answer...
I would suggest (a) new characters do not take campaign traits, they take regular traits - but you must insist the players come up with a good reason for their character to follow Ameiko round, and (b) drop the relationship score rules.
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(2) Caravan combat rules, as written, are an absolute joke. I rewrote them -- took about 20 minutes total -- and although caravan combat is still problematic (see below), it's no longer because of the system. The caravan's combat at D--- M--'s D---, which we did just this past Sunday, was actually pretty tense and exciting.
I am burning with curiosity. Jeff, what is your take on the caravan's rules ?
I would love to have an effective system to enhance my players' experience playing this AP.
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There's even a third in the works (by Jim Groves), which will focus primarily on enhancing the caravan travel encounters.
Yes, and I need to talk it up more. I have on the downhill slide with this one and am going to have it in Jason's hands no later than the 30th, if not before.
Basically there is a 500 mile journey between "Sandpoint" and "Brinewall" and I am going to help GMs out with that, beyond pointing to a random encounter chart.
It won't be dungeon temples with the ghosts of proteans and crazy stuff like that, but rather some nifty low level encounters that are fun, interesting, and logical for a caravan on a long journey—with a mind of actually getting somewhere. I'll have great maps for all the encounters, and plenty of roleplaying situations, plus many of the encounters are flexible enough to handled in different ways (social/stealth/combat). Plus all of the encounters have an original story running through them that blends and meshes well with the AP. Without much difficulty you can also excise those elements and run it as a caravan journey without the AP. I aimed for maximum flexibility!
I'll tell you how long it takes to get between the encounters and distances in general so you can have a real feel for the length of the journey.
With some help from Jason Nelson, we also tweaked the original caravan rules so they balance out correctly over the length of the whole AP. I still recommend traditional encounters, but if you want do caravan combat, I let you! But we fixed the math!
The artwork is done, and the whole kit and kaboodle should be in layout by May 1st and available shortly after that.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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Thanks to Neil and Jim for chiming in on the boards here, and +1 to what they've already said; no need to reinvent the wheel.
As to the OP's question, I wrote for Legacy of Fire and for Jade Regent and think both are great APs. One thing that I really like about them is that, of all Paizo's APs, they are they ones that are the most unequivocally well suited to playing the straight-up GOOD GUYS. Moral ambiguity and shades of gray and all of that certainly have their place, but I like that in these APs there are real motivations, investments, and rewards for going full-on good with a capital G.
I agree with the previous poster also that the maps in Jade Regent are in my mind the best, most beautiful maps in any of the APs. The design and layout of the AP is simply outstanding.
I haven't actually run JR so I can't comment on the relationship rules, though making roleplaying a numbers exercise is always a tricky thing. Attach no numbers, and some players just won't engage. Attach too firm of numbers, and some players will focus more on gaming the system than on actually role-playing. It might be something to track in the background as a GM rather than making it an obvious thing that the players see operating.
The original caravan math was borked, and I think any of several fixes that have been posted up on the boards (and a variation of which Jim will be incorporating into his adventure) can solve the math problem pretty easily. Whether your group likes the idea of having simplified caravan rolls for overcoming obstacles vs. micromanaging each situation with spells, skill checks, etc. (okay, how many water walk spells do we need to cross the river?) is up to you. Conceptually, I like the idea of caravan combat being something that can occur simultaneously with person-to-person combat, but if that's not your cup of tea then I think people have found it's not that hard to drop things.
The one thing I'd advise with Jade Regent is to make it FEEL like time is passing, like the miles are falling away, like the road is long. Some of that will be mechanical, but some will also be narrative tricks as the GM and the style of your description. It's supposed to be a grand journey. Make it feel like one. It might be fun to do an online image search for Silk Road landscapes, or arctic ones, and build a little slideshow to cycle through on your computer as you play. :)
As for Legendary Games, one of our design goals has been to fill in missing pieces or supplement areas where the existing APs could use some boosting. In JR, our products thus far have been aimed at:
1. Under Frozen Stars - "Wait, we've gone on an impossible journey to the north pole, found a legendary alien city that no one has seen in ages... and we're just going to keep on walking and not go take a look?" At the same time, blending in foreshadowing and expanded lore for the Asian side of the journey ahead.
2. Baleful Coven - making enemies more reactive and interactive. Sometimes the PCs are driving the action, but their behavior has consequences as the bad guys try coming after THEM. Also, blurring the lines of reality and dream, along with east and west.
3. The Way of Ki - engaging with the great mysteries of magic and the spirit in the form of ki, but making it something that EVERY CLASS can use (although monks, ninjas, and (using the optional rules in the product) samurai get even more use out of it than others), and do a lot of iconic wuxia stuff.
4. Meditations of the Imperial Mystics - expanding the idea of mind-body-spirit magic, both in expanding what ki can do but also showing the variety of lore and ancient secrets that PCs could find in items that are more than just dusty books with lists of spells.
5. Imperial Heroes - Showing a broad variety of character concepts that harmonize with the themes of the campaign and provide ideal NPCs, cohorts, allies, enemies, or replacement/drop-in PCs.
6. Road to Destiny - As Jim said, making a caravan journey something more than just a string of random encounters, but actually something with its own internal structure and plot that invests PCs more deeply in the task at hand.
All of these products add a richness to the AP that I think you'll really enjoy.
But I think you'd have great fun with Legacy of Fire too. :)
(Shameless plug) We just released Rite Publishing's Haiku of Horror: Autumn Moon Bath House, which is a mapped location and included haunting/ghost encounter for a typical Japanese bath house (and inn) that was designed to be used as a plug-n-play section into existing modules and campaigns. I feel this location would fit well in the Forest of Shadows or The Empty Throne. The ghost encounter comes pre-stated as CR 6, 10, 14, 18 and 22. so the CR 10 or 14 version should be an appropriate challenge to a Jade Regent adventure party.
Incidentally, I designed the original hand-drawn version of the City of Kasai map for The Empty Throne, and some of the writing in the City of Kasai Gazetteer - I'm credited as one of the authors of The Empty Throne, Michael K. Tumey.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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I read about that product on the 3PP Products site. Sounds very cool! (also, good job on the Kasai map!)
To the OP, if you're weighing whether to run LoF or JR and you are wondering about 3PP support, there is certainly more of that for JR.
There's even a third in the works (by Jim Groves), which will focus primarily on enhancing the caravan travel encounters.
Yes, and I need to talk it up more. I have on the downhill slide with this one and am going to have it in Jason's hands no later than the 30th, if not before.
Basically there is a 500 mile journey between "Sandpoint" and "Brinewall" and I am going to help GMs out with that, beyond pointing to a random encounter chart.
It won't be dungeon temples with the ghosts of proteans and crazy stuff like that, but rather some nifty low level encounters that are fun, interesting, and logical for a caravan on a long journey—with a mind of actually getting somewhere. I'll have great maps for all the encounters, and plenty of roleplaying situations, plus many of the encounters are flexible enough to handled in different ways (social/stealth/combat). Plus all of the encounters have an original story running through them that blends and meshes well with the AP. Without much difficulty you can also excise those elements and run it as a caravan journey without the AP. I aimed for maximum flexibility!
I'll tell you how long it takes to get between the encounters and distances in general so you can have a real feel for the length of the journey.
With some help from Jason Nelson, we also tweaked the original caravan rules so they balance out correctly over the length of the whole AP. I still recommend traditional encounters, but if you want do caravan combat, I let you! But we fixed the math!
The artwork is done, and the whole kit and kaboodle should be in layout by May 1st and available shortly after that.
Oooh, cool. I May have to get this for my GM. We are in the process of finishing up in Sandpoint now.
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Well, if you like your evil mastermind to send one ninja at a time to wipe out the threat to his rulership, rather than sending all the ninjas at once, then Jade Regent is for you.
I liked the first Jade Regent book, but the second book was frustrating for me. The BBEG organization is run by a powerful intelligent leader who has had 60 years to amass power and prepare for the sole objective of killing survivors of the former royal families of Minkai. The followers are 100% loyal. Their network of spies extensive. Yet when the adventurers walk into town announcing "Hey, here we are!", they sit back and only present minor inconveniences to the people they should be exterminating.
They could have come up with a reason why the bad guys don't just gather their forces and wipe out the players, but they didn't. Even when the players assault their fortress, they don't even bother to lock the front door or gather their forces to retaliate.
If you enjoy sweeping logic under the rug, then maybe you can handle Jade Regent. I ran book 2 pretty much straight up, hoping to grind through it, but it ate away at me where I wasn't enjoying GMing it.
In my opinion, after Kingmaker, LoF and CotCT look to be the best bets.
My advice is to read into the AP enough to know that you will continue to like it past the first book.
I'm sorry that you're having that issue with it. I just completed it a month ago, and had a different experience.
It was an epic battle for them just to get in the castle, that hit them so hard, they had to go back to heal and stuff. Then, when they returned, they had to deal with the leaders. Each of those battles were pretty tough, though no one died...and the way one got away was just memorable as hell.
You DO have to be careful what you wish for, though. If you use the line of logic that bad guys should be able to throw everything at players because, ya know, they're just smart, have foresight, etc, going for the super realistic approach, you'll probably wipe your party every time they attack an organization like this one. After all, it's not unusual for an organization like this to have two dozen men at the ready. And, if they are prepared, you add surprise as well as outnumbered against your players...well...good luck! :) At the same time, I agree that the idea that the bad guys sit in rooms playing poker while their partners death cries fill the halls is also not right. Like with most things in life...balance is key. As GM, it's up to us to find that balance.
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I am a bit low on cash these days, but I know for a fact that as soon as my financial health recovers I will go on a buying spree of Legendary Games products. And now I see that i will add some Rite Publishing ones too.
In the meantime, I can only gnash my teeth in frustration.
Damn you, you overtalented writers !!!
We're...sorry? O_o
Okay. I ran Jade Regent for the better part of a year, up to about late book 4. At that point we simply had to stop, so that is all I can say on the subject.
I must echo what was said earlier about the progression of events making no sense. Trying not to spoil anything, but the bad guys go to great lengths to pull off what is basically a commando strike half a world away to eliminate a threat to their power.
Yet, throughout the campaign they often only make token, local efforts are made to stop the PC's. It is very strange.
The whole campaign has great art, and great maps, and the relationship rules are okay but there is one thing you must, must understand. It is a railroad from beginning to about book 5/6. The PC's are required to undertake a difficult, dangerous journey by caravan over a place most reasonable people who charter a ship to just go around. I had to keep throwing up invisible wall after invisible wall to keep my PC's from breaking the rails that this campaign requires them to run on. Understand this and stress it to your players to make sure they okay with this.
For some groups, that is just fine. For others it is a huge problem, as it was for mine.
Hm, Steve, if you refer in regards to the "commando strike" to Kimandatsu and the Frozen Shadows, as far as I understood the adventure, it was more that Kimandatsu had been left in Kalsgard to safeguard against any remaining Amatatsu heirs. She wasn't in contact with her bosses in Minkai.
Why she didn't try to contact them and ask for reinforcements is anyones guess, though.
Hm, Steve, if you refer in regards to the "commando strike" to Kimandatsu and the Frozen Shadows, as far as I understood the adventure, it was more that Kimandatsu had been left in Kalsgard to safeguard against any remaining Amatatsu heirs. She wasn't in contact with her bosses in Minkai.
Why she didn't try to contact them and ask for reinforcements is anyones guess, though.
I think the commando strike he means is the force that annihilated Brinewall.
Well, that happened 20 years ago and the Five Storms thought they had gotten everyone.