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So I've got a Graveknight Antipaladin/Vigilante in the Way of the Wicked Campaign. He's got the Guise of Life ( Class ability. If someone uses Deathwatch ( which is a Necromancy, not Divination, spell would they know the Graveknight for the Undead horror that he is? Or should the ability cover this spell as well and enable the Graveknight to appear Living, at least in his social guise?

You are also now an outsider, not a humanoid. So an array of spells no longer work on you, and you need, for instance Bane: Outsider (Native) as opposed to Bane: Humanoid (Human) for opponents to get a bonus against you. OTOH if you're a Tiefling or Aasimar, very little changes.

***Foul Necrothreading*****
Based on the Language, the DC goes up succeed or fail.

Seems, in Pathfinder anyway, the adage that you can only make people afraid for so long until they just don't care anymore is true.

This is, AFAIK, not an 'official' answer/errata/FAQ, but yeah, it doesn't say 'If Failed you may retry with a +5 Increase to DC' for instance.

I can Necromance if I want to...

Check the Arcane Anthology for more stuff about Preparation Rituals.

Yay! Paramanders/Paremandyrs!

Part of me really wants to see the Dralasite, Vrusk, Yazirian, Osakar, Humma, and Ifshnit done up by your players for this using the race guide.

OTOH that's a 6 person group, which is quite large. As a more on-point thought, what about replacement characters?

There is the portal thru the Vaults. The Vault is full of the crazy midnight dust of madness but it beats dying alone in the darklands. (Yeah there's the Argental Font to theoretically fix it, but it's ALSO in a midnight dust-filled Vault so what you'd gain on the swings, you'd lose on the roundabouts.) Still it's a way out.

Also Juliver/Eando and co entered thru the Darklands. You COULD exit through them, though it would take about a month or so to get to Varisia.

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Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

LOL - and the Adept sheepishly produces it's toad familiar and says, "Me too, officer - wanna pet Warthy?"


Officer: 'Excellent then. One of my soldiers has been wounded chasing down those Theist scum. I'm sure you'll have no problem Cureing his wounds without using a Divine Focus then eh?'

So basically you want to reintroduce Rapid Spell from the old Complete Divine of 3.5 fame.

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I also see the Troll Styptic seeing some service for those who want to be absolutely sure their healing is not 'tainted' by the divine.

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
tempestblindam wrote:
BTW I'll also say I wasn't considering having him give up the 900 gp, but more 760 gp, the difference between the average starting money of an Inquisitor, and the 900 gp the trait starts you with. Does the current groupthink still hold that he should have to give up all 900 gp?

I agree that you should deduct whatever his starting money would otherwise have been. (Actually I think the trait should be a fixed bonus to your starting wealth so it's equally useful for all classes, but that's irrelevant.) But I also agree that he should be paying "interest" on it, and that should increase steeply with level (multiply the original extra by level or level squared). Otherwise, there's no reason for anyone not to start with Rich Parents, spend the cash, level up, have way more cash, and trade in for a long-lasting trait for an amount of gold they no longer care about.

FTR, what level are we actually looking at?

WAY late here, sorry.

We were looking at level 8, though they'd just achieved that, since I don't hand out PA until the PCs are in a 'safe zone', which here translated to having their camp set-up. He'd been wanting to trade it out since level 5 or so, about the time they began their run from Eleder to Tazion/Saventh-Yhi, till they actually established their camp in Saventh-Yhi at level 7-8.

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a) Death-for-certain for 100K? That's NOT a small nuclear warhead.
b) The army's in the city? The city of 100K? And they aren't aware of an army of robots capable of conquering an entire planet? I'm not sure these people are innocents.

However assuming the folk of the city ARE innocents (rather than enemy combatants) is there a reason you couldn't evacuate the city and THEN nuke it to destroy the (presumably immobile) portal?

Nefreet wrote:
Only your GM should answer that.

I am the GM in the campaign. I am soliciting opinions from others, like minded, as to what they would do in this situation.

Sadly they've already secured the entire city, conquering every district (except the artisan, with whom they allied) and wiping out every other faction's expedition (specifically they arrived first and built a Muderhobo Battlecamp to destroy everyone else before they could even arrive in-city and even confirm it WAS Saventh-Yhi, hitting them as they made their way up the waterfall path, or at the foot of the waterfall, or back in the Jungle a ways from the waterfall, and specifically cleaning up the battlegrounds to remove as much as possible, signs of slaughter). This was done specifically to AVOID having those sorts of loose 'plot threads' laying around for devious DMs to weave into a net of entrapment. (Of course they'll regret it later, but them's the breaks).

They've only just discovered the power of prestige points, recently using them to bring a PC back from the dead (since, y'know, paranoid cleric won't help). But if I start stripping them away just for doing what they all view as necessary preparation, I'm reasonably sure they'll just shrug and say 'We got along without them in every other campaign, we don't have to have them here.'

If you mean discovery points, it's a bit too late for that. The award of 2400 XP/PC already went out. Even if I wanted pull it back, the 11th level PCs were...underwhelmed at the degree of reward for the work. I'm pretty sure they'd ultimately just shrug say 'whatever' and deduct the XP.

They REALLY don't like the midnight spores (and as you can see from the rest of this post, there's really nothing but the Vaults left for them in Saventh-Yhi). They'd probably endure it, with poor grace and as little interaction as possible, until they could get it cured by the Argental Font if I just denied the ability to avoid them with any spell, but they are never going to embrace it as 'fun' which appears to have been more the intent.

Sorry I forgot about the organized play society (mostly cause my 'local' FLGS is about an hour away by car for me and thus PFS is not really an option) and this was for a home game NOT the PFS Organized Play.

As you may-or-may-not know in the Faction Guide, one of the options for a character who has 5 TPA is to spend one Current Prestige Award Point and trade out a 'standard' trait for one of the Pathfinder Traits from the guide:

"Exchange one character trait taken at character creation for a new Pathfinder Society trait. The character must still obey the normal trait system rules (such as not having more than one trait from the same category); however, the new trait does not need to be from the same category as the trait it replaces." (p 37, Faction Guide)

BTW I'll also say I wasn't considering having him give up the 900 gp, but more 760 gp, the difference between the average starting money of an Inquisitor, and the 900 gp the trait starts you with. Does the current groupthink still hold that he should have to give up all 900 gp?

OK so I've got a character who's become part of the Pathfinder Faction as per the Faction Guide, and he wants to swap out the 'Rich Parents' trait for 'Defender of Society'. What, if anything, would he lose in this swap, since the original 900 gp of equipment is long gone?

OK so my players are not liking the whole Midnight Spores thing. They want to use the flexible timeline of the AP and do some spell research, specifically they want to research an 'Immune to Midnight Spores' spell. (or as it's become known round the table "Frak your 'Frak you, I don't care about your defenses, the plot says you're paranoid, so get get paranoid' dust." They may not use the word Frak though.)
Is this even possible? I mean Greater Restoration cures it completely, and several Restorations will get the job done, so it's not like it's immune to magic. The spell is obviously of limited use outside the Vaults, and the players as a group clearly hate it(for reasons ranging from the mechanical interference with healing/buffing, to the role-playing interference of 'forced introversion')and want a 100% effective prophylactic that doesn't cost hundreds to thousands of gp like the cure. Is there any reason the party HAS to be paranoid to drive the path forward?

I would say 'yes, but with the caveat that it's still a secondary attack, and thus subject to the -5 penalty'.

Though given that they get to swap their Int bonus for Str, that's unlikely to make much difference, particularly with a touch spell.

Just a question for the GMs out there. Would you allow this item in game? Would you allow it with changes, or simply forbid it entirely?

Master Alchemist’s Lab

Aura: Moderate Transmutation
CL: 7
Slot: Slotless/Site (Use activated)
Price: 8, 000 gp
Weight: 100 lbs (when being transported)

This Alchemical laboratory is extensive, beyond even a typical Alchemical Lab. While anyone may use it as a simple Alchemical Lab, for the usual +2 bonus, a well-trained expert (with at least 5 ranks in Craft (alchemy)) can use to effectively gain the Master Alchemist Feat (APG). If they already have that feat they merely gain a further +2 to their total (plus another 2 for the usual Alchemical Lab bonus).
The Master Alchemist’s Lab requires at least 5 man-hours to set up properly. This time should be doubled if none of those involved have at least one rank in craft (alchemy). Until fully set-up it may not be used. It also requires the same time to pack up properly. Each hour skipped in tear down results in a 20% chance of giving the entire Lab the ‘broken’ condition when it is next set-up and those hours from the sketchy tear down will be added onto that set-up.

Construction Requirements
Craft Wondrous Item, Fabricate, Craft (Alchemy) 5 ranks; Cost: 4,000 gp

Option 1: Waive the rest time. Simply have the spirits of the honored ancestor emperors, and the guardian kami, and the ancestral weapons etc. allow the PCs to gain a level when they first sight the Jade Throne. If you feel generous (and you might), have them also restore the party to full HP and spells, except for those actually still in effect.

Option 2: The forces present in the Castle are all the forces the jade regent has remaining. This option allows the palace to be whittled down piece by piece like a more typical dungeon. The battle of armies outside takes several days to resolve. (Note though that for each day in the capital the PCs lose one 'Rebellion Point' so if they take a while this can transform a victory into a loss)

Heh. I just had a player complain how unachievably high the DCs were. Course he was trying to ride the summoner's Eidolon, bareback and without the Mount evolution so that's a 10pt bump to all the DCs. And while he's got a good Dex, he's got no ranks in ride...

That's just it, the Ride system is meant to cover everyone from the 1st level Cleric with an 8 Dex to the 15th lvl Cavalier with his bonded mount. In order for the former to have any realistic chance to carefully mount a horse and (more importantly) avoid taking a d6 Dam fall when they dismount the horse, the latter is going to quickly be in 'take 1' territory for most of the tricks. They are, after all, a class focused on Mounted Combat.

Also remember that sauce goes with the goose as well as the gander. If you boost those checks for the Cavalier, you are also boosting them for all the other PCs and NPCs.

I suppose my question back is 'Why do you want to knock him off his horse?' Do you also want to find ways to negate the Mage's magic missile, the Rogue's sneak attack and the Cleric's channel energy?

My problem with rolling stats has been that I have a fairly large group (6 players) and when we roll, someone comes up with Mr. Perfect (and when I say someone, I mean the same player every time so far, regardless of who's dice he's used), while someone else gets, at best, Joe Average. Usually 2-3 people are 'alright' at their roles, and the other 2-3 become what 'Mr. Perfect' termed 'Cheerleaders' (ie they aren't there to play, they're there to cheer as the team/Mr. Perfect smash into the end zone of victory.) If the foe challenges Mr. Perfect, they're there to...well, die. And while Mr. Perfect may have loved that game/character, Joe Average hated it, and the Cheerleaders were, at best, bored, frustrated and annoyed.

That's why I like a point-buy even playing field to start. Luck already has enough of a role (roll?) in the game, without it kneecapping you right at the start.

Do you have the Skull & Shackles AP checked in the Hero Configuration? It'll disappear if you don't, or if you unclick it.

3.5 Loyalist wrote:

Ah, got to point out this though.

I Am A Delicate Flower
A half-drunk nobleman gets a little grabby with Ameiko, and she cracks a tankard over the man’s head. Character can either join in the resulting bar brawl, or else try and drag the future empress out before she beats half the room into unconsciousness.

Doesn't Ameiko have a 10 str and is a bard/rogue/aristocrat? Could she even beat half a tavern into unconsciousness?

This is the reference sheet I have:

I would imagine, with the likelihood such drunk folks could be feinted into next week, before being sucker-punch/sneak attacked for d6+d3 damage (or simply intimidated with 'Bravado's Blade' fist) that she could at the least give a good account of herself among the typically 1st-2nd level Commoners, Experts and Aristocrats populating the tavern. She is a 5th level PC class character. I know who my money's on. And her Bardic Singing buffs herself if I recall correctly.

Also can anyone theorize how Sandru (who has no ranks in Survival) give you 'a few tips' that give you a bonus to your Survival Skill?

So one of my players (an Aasimar Clouded Vision Oracle of Life) has developed a real fondness for Helgarval. Long and the short of it is he pretty much constantly wears 'Helm-garval' to benefit from the Protective Aura, as well as let the helm see things further than 60' away and tell him what's out there.

My main question is: When he/they get hit with Area effect spells, should Helm-garval be treated as equipment, and thus not worried about for taking damage etc. in most cases, OR should he be a separate creature, and thus probably not with the party much longer before the Fireballs, Cones of Cold and (especially) Unholy Blights send him (back) to heaven (or elysium, or Shelyn's realm, or wherever)?

A champion level 'Gaia Weeps' weed killer is salt dissolved in boiling vinegar. Cheap and incredibly effective, though you will need those hirelings to spread it far and wide. Note that 2g of Salt will stop growth in an area for up to a whole year, though it depends on fresh water entering the area, since it's a wetland, find the headwaters and just dump the salt/vinegar into it and let gravity do the work for you. No magic and if you wish you can stop and let the water wash away the evidence of your misdeeds (except for the vast swaths of rotting plant matter)

While I'm not from the Mountain, and this is certainly too late to do any good, I'll still respond, since there's always the chance it'll help the next guy with this problem. All this is IMO, and YMMV.

Yes the gatehouse is at the level of land on the other side of the gorge and river, which is different than the level on this side. Since the gorge is formed by tectonics along a fault, rather than erosion, this makes a lot of sense.

Horses- Yep the horses come out the main gate and ride over the bridge to the North of the wall. While this seems bizarre, remember the bridge stood before the Watch Wall castles were constructed, so the Castle was built to conform to the existing bridge, rather than changing the bridge to meet the castle (which would have been very nearly as hard as simply building a new bridge, defeating the purpose of cost savings I assume the site was chosen for). There's certainly a path between the two gates since it would be needed for just this purpose.

The Drawbridge does indeed swing up to the Gatehouse side, providing the 'door' of the South Gate. But the mechanism to control it can only be accessed from the second level of the gatehouse, which requires one to break into the castle to do. Hacking through the wood isn't going to show much but a 20' gap with a long drop. And cutting the chains with them withdrawn into the walls at the ceiling of the second level, or thereabouts, would be difficult at best.

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demontroll wrote:

Well, if you like your evil mastermind to send one ninja at a time to wipe out the threat to his rulership, rather than sending all the ninjas at once, then Jade Regent is for you.

I liked the first Jade Regent book, but the second book was frustrating for me. The BBEG organization is run by a powerful intelligent leader who has had 60 years to amass power and prepare for the sole objective of killing survivors of the former royal families of Minkai. The followers are 100% loyal. Their network of spies extensive. Yet when the adventurers walk into town announcing "Hey, here we are!", they sit back and only present minor inconveniences to the people they should be exterminating.

They could have come up with a reason why the bad guys don't just gather their forces and wipe out the players, but they didn't. Even when the players assault their fortress, they don't even bother to lock the front door or gather their forces to retaliate.

If you enjoy sweeping logic under the rug, then maybe you can handle Jade Regent. I ran book 2 pretty much straight up, hoping to grind through it, but it ate away at me where I wasn't enjoying GMing it.

In my opinion, after Kingmaker, LoF and CotCT look to be the best bets.

My advice is to read into the AP enough to know that you will continue to like it past the first book.

That's...not how I read the intro. The powerful, intelligent leader believes the Royal Clan was wiped out like 60 years ago and is consolidating power via the ninja clan over Kalsgard when suddenly, someone messes with the magic mcguffin at the end of book 1.

They don't know the Royal Clan is still alive, but they DO know the mcguffin is in play. So they go looking for it and the PCs caravan is one of (presumably) several leads/possibilities (I dropped in the White Ravens for one to foreshadow the next adventure path; Kelda Oxgutter is another likely candidate for investigation). The Notoriety system is there to represent how sure the Ninjas are that the PCs are who they are looking for, and/or that they have a connection to this caravan beyond just arriving in town with it.

Did you miss the part about reinforcements for Ravenscraeg once it's assaulted? They do indeed begin to gather their forces once they get hit, those same forces being the folks who are out gathering information on the PCs and other groups.

What you seem to be assuming is the PCs waltz into Kalsgard, openly and loudly proclaiming 'Let all bow before her divinity the last true Heir of the Amatatsu Clan and her magical seal. By the way would any of you happen to know where to find an ancestral Katana or a guide over the Crown of the World?' Completely ignoring the Advice of the NPC's, and even in that event, wouldn't the powerful-yet-wise leader of the Frozen Shadows want to look before she landed on such a seemingly perfect target? I mean is life EVER that easy? So the PCs could still get a shot at winning, if they're quick. (and lucky.)

Since this is in House rules, anyone remember 'Scintilating Scales' from the Spell Compendium? Yeah, I know it's 3.5, but this ONE SPELL changes worlds for Dragons, though not so much for virtually every other monster and character.

Well if you're really up for ANYTHING.
Enter the Opponent's square. You'll face an Attack of Opportunity and be squeezing, but if they withdraw, the first square they leave will be the one you are both in. The second square will provoke and be within your 5' reach.
It's a sacrifice play, but by the RAW it could work.

Standard action.
Also note that the summoner cannot use their Summon Monster Ability with their Eidolon out, so they must dismiss the Eidolon, then take another standard action to Summon Monster.

My own judgement would be that the Familiar knows the languages learned by it's master, but may only SPEAK one language, chosen when the familiar is first gained. The idea that it can detect forgeries written in a language it can't read, or even understand, is to say the least bizarre. Especially when you consider how good it might be at WRITING them (Bird Feather quill puns and jokes about a Mouse's ability with cut and paste notwithstanding)

Oh, and the Parrot thing is IMO an obvious example of Balance over realism/players' thinking. Basically if you're a druid you need to use a feat for Natural Spell. (or three for Still/Silent Spell & Eschew Components)

The idea that, as a parrot known for making human-like sounds, you're unable to speak is to me laughable. Even more so with the RAW idea that a Parrot, already trained to speak, would suddenly lose that ability if it was taken for a familiar or a wild-shaped druid could be 'trained' by the party ranger to speak, but is completely unable to figure out how to do so on his own. So say 'I'm not speaking in Common, I'm making sounds that exactly imitate the sound of Common Speech. The sounds that exactly imitiate the phrase 'The Goblins are holed up in the split to the left, the Warg-riders are gone and I don't know where they are.' But, of course those sounds, which I can make, aren't speech, so I couldn't use them to say command words or cast spells.'

So, if I'm reading your question right, you want to know how to stop a foe from fleeing rather than sticking around to get cut up, in terrain that is essentially a near-perfect design for said foe to take exactly that tactic with no way to make your speed superior to your foe's correct?

Short answer?

You can't.

Long answer?

Why do you care? Are you here to kill this person? If you're not, just let them keep backing up while you advance to your goal. If they give you even one opportunity otherwise, grapple them and hold them till everyone dogpiles on. Otherwise ignore them entirely and continue about your business as if they didn't exist. Why are letting them get under your skin? Do you really need to kill every monster in the dungeon, even if you get XP for just 'defeating/bypassing' it?

Dunno if it's too late, but my favorite for running it (or any fortress) has been the 'Stacking Reinforcements' path.
The party goes up the stair, meets the Spider eater. The noise alerts the mooks in the fortress, 3 Tengu Ninja go to guard the stair, the ravens swarm in the main hall, the dozen mooks cower in their rooms until the swarms are defeated, then rush out, with the Human Ninja on the second level firing down into the fight. Jorgen the Axe hauls himself out of his drunken stupor and descends into the fight, with the other 3 Tengu Ninja trailing in his wake. Perhaps even Wodes puts in an appearance with a final wave of Swarms and summoned Air elementals. THEN the party has the dungeon to look forward to. Each wave arriving after about 3/4-90% of the prior wave has been decimated.

Or they could be stealthy, like ninjas, and fight room-by-room if they are silent as death...

Timothy Hanson wrote:
I feel like you went through a lot of work, just so you can say "Ok, you buy some syrup, that will be 5 gps." Next time why not just ask him how much he wants to spend, then describe something equivalent. A really nice artistic hand blown crystal bottle with filled with a rather rare Elven Syrup for 100 gp, some exotic syrup from the First World for 500 gps, or just some standard bottle of syrup for 5 gps. Just wing it.

While I can agree with the spirit of just getting on with the adventure, and acknowledge the fact that almost all players aren't gonna care one way or the other and mostly want a loose 20th century analog of a worldwide economy, here's the problem:

I'm not one of them. (Hoo Boy am I not one of them!)

I would love an economic system that made sense based on distance from source and rarity of product, plus demand for said product.

I would also like a system that took into account the 4 food groups in your character's diet and how lacking one might affect him/her, how much wear and tear goes into your boots from walking 200 miles across the trackless desert, and what sort of shape your armor is in after you drag it through the salty mangrove swamps wherein the goblins lair.

I also know I'm one of a very, very ummm, SELECT group that enjoys this level of graininess in my game logistics. So to keep it in check I try to indulge these flights of fancy out of the actual ever-so-precious-and-limited game time, and just give the players, who don't care about the process behind the answer, the number they are looking for.

So anyone think a price of 5gp/gallon is out of whack?

Greetings All,

So I have a player who would like to purchase a couple of bottles of Maple Syrup as a gift. It occurs to me:

a) Maple Syrup is pretty much a product of the Sugar Maple, which AFAIK is/was found only in North (eastern) America. If anyone can show me european production of it, please let me know.

b) This would translate to Arcadia in Golarion, I'd presume. Since there IS limited trade between the two continents it's possible Maple Syrup could be found in the markets of Avistan. If anyone knows of any cannon references to Maple Trees in Avistan, please let me know.

c) It would undoubtedly be a 'trade good' of durable value and also undoubtedly horribly expensive. My question is, How expensive? (It's worth about $60/gallon today.)

The PC in question is currently in Varisia, in the Riddleport area, if that helps.

Ravingdork wrote:

We're a good aligned party with a paladin (no murderin'), only 4th-level (no nova'n), he's likely a fair bit higher (likely expecting us), and the law is on his side.

He promised us 5,000 coins and brought out a large sack of platinum. He never technically said what TYPE of coins he was promising us...

Item: You have a paladin in your party

Item: Said paladin supports the 'legal' technicalities/falsehoods that would not likely stand up in any modern court in which the judge was not well bought off (particularly since the charge is counterfeiting money) that they were, in fact, paid the agreed upon prices for the property.

Inference: While I know wisdom doesn't have a minimum ability score for the class any longer, just how dumb is this paladin? There's obeying the law, and then there's being a chump! Also would not that sort of underhanded approach to payment suggest you may have aided and abetted a man whose intentions for your keep would be the sort bold adventurers would usually be the ones to sally forth and put a stop to?

While the murder may be out, the idea that hunting this mountebank down and bringing him to justice is in some way not the paladin's duty because he was the one who got scammed is ludicrous. He may-or-may-not be higher level than you, but aren’t most of the Villains a group of PCs faces off against of higher level?

The man stole your keep. Don’t let him get away with it. Even if it takes a campaign to stop him.

Ravingdork wrote:
Trista1986 wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
0gre wrote:

Hmm, Wand of silence lasts three rounds. That gives you one round to sneak up, one surprise round, and one round of combat... maybe two rounds of combat if you hit it right as you kick a door open.

Again, assuming you follow the rules and the players actually invest in the wand/ spells/ day, sure.

As far as I'm concerned a sneaky/ stealth focused group where the party infiltrates and accomplishes their mission in complete stealth/ silence is pretty cool. There is a terror aspect to it which I wish the game system could take into account. A welcome variation on the typical smash/ kill tactics I see in many groups.

Are spell trigger items not voice activated?

PC: By the power of this wand I bequeath silence!
NPC: Guards! Intruders! I hear intruders!

It says to cast a spell you must speak in a firm voice. Doesn't say you have to yell or even that it can't be a whisper just says to be firm.

I've argued that many a time and been shot down just as many a time on these boards.

What's more, you aren't casting a spell, but activating a wand. Diiferent rules apply.

Wait... How does the NPC get the shout out if the Silence is up? Conversely how do the PC's know the alarm is raised if silence is up? (Also, just how many spells is your Cleric/Mage (or particularly Bard) going to be casting in a silence?)

Add another vote for BotD 3: Agents of the Apocalypse.

The Axioms of Anarchy would also be a nice look. The whole Law v. Chaos conflict is so often overlooked or subsumed in Good v. Evil.

EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
Anyone ever play Top Secret/S.I., if so what was your experience like?

Enjoyable but all too short.

I did enjoy the skills based system, and the fact that pulling out the Thompson Submachine Gun and blasting everyone in sight wasn't really the way to go in SI. At the same time the plots that we most enjoyed were the ones like Rapidstrike and Lady in Distress that were really just modernized dungeon crawls.

The problems arose when we moved on to more...nuanced fare like Fastpass, Seventh Sign, and (particularly) Orient Express. My team of Commandos just didn't quite know want to do for these plot/ investigation driven adventures. In fact I believe LA burned in nuclear fire during Seventh Sign, and the general frustration led them/us back to AD&D.

But that was some 20 years ago and I actually had some fun adapting Lady in Distress as a Vampire: the Masquerade module for a convention, but that is another tale...

Easily the worst villain I've ever run is/was the 'Chak' from part 3 of the 1e module 'Needle'.
After a long struggle with a hideous maze filled with invisible disintegrations fields and fiendish traps, to dump the party on a brass dragon surrounded by some 300 man sized spiders who say 'we greet you with open legs. Gee Whiz.' sorta shattered the tension, to say nothing of the suspension of disbelief.
I actually had to SHOW THE PLAYERS the boxed text in the module to get them to believe I wasn't pulling their leg.

Byron Zibeck wrote:

But they're not just changing the system, they are throwing out the history that makes Dungeons and Dragons unique. Furthermore, they are doing it in the core books, not in an optional supplement. It makes both fluff AND crunch from older products incapatable with the new edition, and many players, myself included, have invested heavily in those source books.

And that's really the point here, You HAVE invested in those books. Hasbro/WotC already has your money for them and are well aware they sold them to you not long ago.

If they don't make 4e 'evolved' enough from 3.X then there's a (really, really) good chance you'll ignore the fancy new manual of the planes (4e) when it comes out and just translate what you need as you need it (as folks who bought the 1e manual of the planes did when they needed planar stuff, rather than buying a great whacking lot of 2e Planescape stuff).
Or am I being too cynical? Was there a hue and cry for a new edition among the fans that I missed?

Rambling Scribe wrote:

What grapevine did you hear this through?

It sounds like plausible speculation, but this is the first I've heard that particular thought. Is it from a reliable source?

Just to serve as a second source, I've heard this speculation bandied about on the Greytalk List. It's (TTBOMK) nothing substantiated but it DOES explain the move more logically, from a business perspective, than the 'official' explanation.

WHERE, in Boccob's niether holy nor unholy name?