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For example, as a half-orc can I take the Eclectic feat?
I think they count as human for the purpose of such things?
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Given that there isn't a full Orc race for players to play, I would guess that human feats only apply to humans. Otherwise only really "wonky" half races couldn't take human feats.
Let's Generate some:
Half Orc half gnome - The ugly little bugger.
Half Orc Half Elf - The almost pretty big gal.
Half Halfling Half Gnome - Can we really tell a difference?
Half Drow Half Merfolk - WTF???
Half Drow Half Orc - WTF!?!?!?
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No, they can't. The relevant quote is:
Orc Blood: Half-orcs count as both humans and orcs for any effect related to race.
Feat prerequistes aren't an effect. Bane (humanoid (human))'s bonus is an effect. The bonus from favored enemy (orc) is an effect. But prerequsites aren't.
So is "No" the definitive answer?
By that "logic" half orcs can't take human or orc feats.No, they can't. The relevant quote is:
Orc Blood: Half-orcs count as both humans and orcs for any effect related to race.Feat prerequistes aren't an effect. Bane (humanoid (human))'s bonus is an effect. The bonus from favored enemy (orc) is an effect. But prerequsites aren't.
So is "No" the definitive answer?
To Bobson it is. By his reading of too much into the word 'effect', half elves and half orcs would't quality for any race based feats. To me that is enough evidence that is not the case and as such the half races CAN take race based feats of either parentage.
I also don't understand why half-orcs gets proficiency with Orc weapons as martial and half-elves don't get it with elven weapons
By that "logic" half orcs can't take human or orc feats.No, they can't. The relevant quote is:
Orc Blood: Half-orcs count as both humans and orcs for any effect related to race.Feat prerequistes aren't an effect. Bane (humanoid (human))'s bonus is an effect. The bonus from favored enemy (orc) is an effect. But prerequsites aren't.So is "No" the definitive answer?To Bobson it is. By his reading of too much into the word 'effect', half elves and half orcs would't quality for any race based feats. To me that is enough evidence that is not the case and as such the half races CAN take race based feats of either parentage.
No, they'd qualify for any feats which required being a half-elf or half-orc.
Consider: Destroyer's Blessing requires "Half-orc or orc, rage class feature, worshiper of the Destroyer."
Fight On requires "Con 13; dwarf, half-orc, or orc."
Pass For Human requires "Half-elf, half-orc, or halfling"
They can't take orc feats because they're not orcs. They can't take elf feats because they're not elves. They can't take human feats because they're not humans. They can take half-orc and half-elf feats. Many elf feats specifically also allow half-elves to take them. Many orc feats specifically also allow half-orcs to take them. Therefore, the ones that don't specifically allow it are intended to not be available to the half-breeds.
Yes.
... But only after taking the Adopted trait.
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You know, I just read the Racial Heritage Feat, and it says something interesting when you pay attention to the terminology in the feat.
Choose another humanoid race. You count as both human and that race for any effects related to race. For example, if you choose dwarf, you are considered both a human and a dwarf for the purpose of taking traits, feats, how spells and magic items affect you, and so on.
Half-Orcs and Half-Elves are considered as both Human and Orc or Elf, respectively, for the purpose of effects related to race, which is the same terminology of the feat, I would have to say Half-Orcs qualify for purely Orc or purely Human feats.
Best argument I've seen for it yet. I'm not sure I'm convinced, but definitely a good find.
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Actually, the adopted trait only gives you one racial trait, and does nothing else. Though a human can count as whatever they want with the Racial Heritage feat.
Read the PRD:
"Adopted: You were adopted and raised by someone not of your actual race, and raised in a society not your own. As a result, you picked up a race trait from your adoptive parents and family, and may immediately select a race trait from your adoptive parents' race."
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Actually, the adopted trait only gives you one racial trait, and does nothing else. Though a human can count as whatever they want with the Racial Heritage feat.Read the PRD:
"Adopted: You were adopted and raised by someone not of your actual race, and raised in a society not your own. As a result, you picked up a race trait from your adoptive parents and family, and may immediately select a race trait from your adoptive parents' race."
A Race Trait is a category of traits, Faith, Magic, Social, Race, etc. That's what you get with the adopted trait, not racial abilities and feats.
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Benefit: Choose another humanoid race. You count as both human and that race for any related to race. For example, if you choose dwarf, you are considered both a human and a dwarf for the purpose of taking traits, feats, how spells and magic items affect you, and so on.
Orc Blood: Half-orcs count as both humans and orcs for any related to race.
The combination of these two items, with the interpretation that "effect" means the same thing in both, makes it perfectly clear that a half-orc qualifies for any feat or trait that has either a human or orc prerequisite.
This does, however, bring up a great question. If this is true, whey would the designers ever make a distinction that a feat or trait could specifically be taken by half-orcs or half-elves? The RAI of the distinction would seem to imply that if it is not specifically and only the race listed, then the "effect" does not apply.
This is tricky semantic ground only because of the fact that the designers saw fit to list half-orc and half-elf races into the prerequisites of some feats/traits right along side orc and elf.
For example Blood Vengeance specifically lists half-orc and orc separately. If a half-orc automagically qualifies based off of the Orc Blood race feature, there should be no need to list the two together.
After a quick look at some of the general feats, I see some that require half-elf only as a prerequisite, and some, like Breadth of Experience, that say elf only.
It seems to me, that the ambiguity presented by the two seemingly opposing ideas creates a situation where it is left up to the GM of each individual game how to apply it.
I think this is another case of the designers at Paizo not being on board on the interpretation of the rules. Similar to the Flurry retcon, clearly the definition of effect, when it comes to race, is interpreted differently by all the different designers.
I can see both sides, but I'm leaning toward half-orc/elves being able to take human feats.
I can see both sides, but I'm leaning toward half-orc/elves being able to take human feats.
Because of the ambiguity I would lean that way too. Besides the fact that I don't see anything game-breaking about allowing a mixed-race character to take a feat with a racial prerequisite. My initial glimpse at many of those feats didn't show me anything that, in my opinion, makes a character overpowered.
My answer would "No." My reasoning being that half-humans are not human enough to qualify for human feats.
My answer would "No." My reasoning being that half-humans are not human enough to qualify for human feats.
But humans can be dwarf enough to qualify for dwarf feats? How do you reason that?
Benefit: Choose another humanoid race. You count as both human and that race for any related to race. For example, if you choose dwarf, you are considered both a human and a dwarf for the purpose of taking traits, feats, how spells and magic items affect you, and so on.Orc Blood: Half-orcs count as both humans and orcs for any related to race.The combination of these two items, with the interpretation that "effect" means the same thing in both, makes it perfectly clear that a half-orc qualifies for any feat or trait that has either a human or orc prerequisite.
This does, however, bring up a great question. If this is true, whey would the designers ever make a distinction that a feat or trait could specifically be taken by half-orcs or half-elves? The RAI of the distinction would seem to imply that if it is not specifically and only the race listed, then the "effect" does not apply.
This is tricky semantic ground only because of the fact that the designers saw fit to list half-orc and half-elf races into the prerequisites of some feats/traits right along side orc and elf.
For example Blood Vengeance specifically lists half-orc and orc separately. If a half-orc automagically qualifies based off of the Orc Blood race feature, there should be no need to list the two together.
After a quick look at some of the general feats, I see some that require half-elf only as a prerequisite, and some, like Breadth of Experience, that say elf only.
It seems to me, that the ambiguity presented by the two seemingly opposing ideas creates a situation where it is left up to the GM of each individual game how to apply it.
Nice summary of the problem.
Personally, I'd say that the Racial Heritage feat is wrong in including feats, and everything else is right. But it's definitely unclear.
@Bobson: I'd be inclined to agree, but its inclusion creates the sticky wicket we are now presented with.
Of interesting note: HeroLab will not allow a half-orc character to take eclectic as a feat, because they do not qualify as human according to their mechanical interpretation.
Yeah theadurrection but epelj that pretty much sums it up eh? Choose one side and go with it...
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Incorrect. Per recent FAQ, half-humans count as both race types for the purpose of qualifying for feats. The quoted text is lore-specific and not indicative of general Pathfinder play.
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This question has been answered in the FAQ.
Half-elves and half-orcs may select racial favored class options, archetypes, traits, and so on, as if they were a full member of both races (a half-elf can select elf and human rules elements, a half-orc can select human and orc rules elements).
No need to decide between one or the other, you can always choose from both.
Thanks guys. I also missed the update on the d20pfsrd. It's clearly posted in the race section for each half-human. Now I have to decide between half-orc and half-elf...
So, just to confuse things some more.... What about Aasimar and Tieflings?
Tieflings and aasimars are outsiders whose otherworldly powers are so strong they wash out the base creature, be it bear, bugbear or barbarian. Any aasimar or tiefling is only an aasimar or tiefling, although doubtless worthy ones. That's why they are unaffected by "charm person" or "charm animal". They are native outsiders. Qed
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So, just to confuse things some more.... What about Aasimar and Tieflings?
i'd say no as there is no similar blood language in the Aasimar and Tiefling rules.
Also, note that Human Aasimars have Scion Of Humankind as an alternate racial trait, which allows them to take Human feats (among other things). My GM has allowed us to apply this to any Aasimar race, so I've played a Scion of Gnomekind and a Scion of Halflingkind. I don't know of an equivalent for Tieflings, though.
An aasimar with the Scion of Humanity alternate racial trait can take human-specific feats. I don't know of a similar alternate racial trait for tieflings. Note that not all aasimar and tieflings are half-human; some are half-dwarf, half-elf, half-half-elf, half-halfling, etc., and the only differences are size.
Thanks guys. I also missed the update on the d20pfsrd. It's clearly posted in the race section for each half-human. Now I have to decide between half-orc and half-elf...Really? Doesnt seem that clear to me- hence me searching here.
I'm still not certain if I need to take any special feat or trait or something for my half-elf to take "Fast Learner" or if there even is a way for me to do that- if I was raised by humans or something?
Half-elves are human for all purposes.
Thanks guys. I also missed the update on the d20pfsrd. It's clearly posted in the race section for each half-human. Now I have to decide between half-orc and half-elf...Really? Doesnt seem that clear to me- hence me searching here.
I'm still not certain if I need to take any special feat or trait or something for my half-elf to take "Fast Learner" or if there even is a way for me to do that- if I was raised by humans or something?
Also, probably would have been best not to necro an over three year old thread.