Barbarian Grappler lv9 feat - Snapping Turtle Clutch or Spell Sunder?

[Secane]

I need to make a decision on my Barb Grappler for PFS.

I got 2 choices for my level 9 feat slot.
1) I could take Snapping Turtle Clutch for possibly more grapples.
2) Or Extra Rage Power for Spell Sunder, which would give me options to deal with people under freedom of movement and other spells, etc.

3) Also with the Anaconda's Coils belt, do I really need the Final Embrace feat? Or should I just make use of a range grapple weapon?
Anaconda's Coils gives constrict, Final Embrace gives grab.

Which do you all think would be a better choice?

Current feats are
lv1) 1 Barb - Toughness (I really need this.)
lv2) 1 Barb, 1 unarmed fighter, Improved unarmed strike and Snapping Turtle style
lv3) 2 Barb, 1 UF - Improved Grapple, Strength Surge rage power
lv4) 2 Barb, 1 UF, 1 Inqusitor
lv5) 3 Barb, 1 UF, 1 Inq - Celestial Obedience to Falayna
lv6) 4 Barb, 1 UF, 1 Inq - Superstitious rage power
lv7) 5 Barb, 1 UF, 1 Inq - Improved grapple <-- Current level
lv8) 5 Barb, 2 UF, 1 Inq - Final Embrace feat (fighter bonus feat), via Anaconda's Coils item
lv9) 6 Barb, 2 UF, 1 Inq - Witch Hunter rage power and Snapping Turtle Clutch or Spell Sunder(?)

I am only lv 7 now, so I can still decide which to take.
I could delay taking Spell Sunder till lv 11, but it just seems too good to not take early.
So which feat/power should I take?

[Secane]

Any advice? anyone?

[soupturtle]

I'll assume the second entry of improved grapple at level 7 is actually greater grapple, yes? Otherwise: get that first!

Both options seem good. But to be honest, I don't really see that much in Final Embrace. I guess getting grab is pretty good, but I'm not sure you really need all this stuff to deal some unimpressive damage while grappling. You cannot add power attack (there's no attack roll), it adds only 1x your strength modifier and the base damage isn't great either. For me, the goal of grappling is to disable an enemy. If that works, then you can either try to tie them up (taking them out of the fight completely) or let your party members kill them easily. Inflicting a bit of extra damage on the side (through grab and constrict) doesn't seem that great.

So what I would do is scrap the second fighter level (unless you need a certain number of fighter levels for something you have planned at higher levels). You can then take snapping turtle clutch at 9, and get spell sunder as a rage power (from barbarian 8) at 10. At 11, you'll definitely want rapid grappler. And you'll also have witch hunter a level earlier, which is nice, as it's a useful rage power in its own right.

edit: I'm also not entirely sure you qualify for final embrace. You may have the constrict special ability, but I don't know that you are 'a creature with the constrict special ability'. But I guess that's one for the rules lawyers.

[Bruno Breakbone]

This should probably help you.

[Secane]

@soupturtle, its Greater Grapple.

Final Embrace give grab which adds a +4 to CMB to to start and maintain a grapple.

It does works with anaconda coils, but face the possibility of disappearing if the item gets antimagic field. Final Embrace stops working if anaconda coils stops working.

@Brother Bruno, Yap, I have been using the build you wrote. Realize my build is a little off from your plan, so started this new thread.

Original ideal was Snapping Turtle Clutch at level 5, Final Embrace at lv 8 and spell sunder at lv 9.

But the Celestial Obedience feat to Falayna, is perfect for me in-character wise.... so I had to take it... at lv 5 instead.

Now I am trying to juggle things around to get back on track.

New ideal is to take Snapping Turtle Clutch at 9, Spell Sunder at 10 and Final embrace at 11 via fighter lv (and rapid grappler from normal feat slot.)

Falayna's Celestial Obedience balances out Final Embrace, as it gives a +4 to Grapple checks and a flat +4 to CMD.

This character would be my main character for going pass level 12, so I am trying to get her right.

[soupturtle]

Ah, I missed that +4 to grapple checks from getting the grab ability. That does make it rather good, and off course getting the grab ability is nice as well. It's still not crystal clear to me that that feat should be allowed to work, and which attacks the grab ability would apply to (since it usually applies to specific attacks) but it does sound pretty strong.

Your new plan sounds pretty good as well, and I think that in general you're choosing between the order of several powerful options, so it probably doesn't matter much either way.

[Secane]

Thing is Final Embrace benefits a monk a lot more then me. I only get a max of 1d6+8 damage when raging at lv 8.

I am thinking of taking Pinning Knockout instead...
Also as I mention in my last post, Falayna's Celestial Obedience balances out the lost of final embrace to some extend.

Rapid Grapple is a must at lv 11.

Now it is a matter of what should I take first? (Or not take)

1) Take Final Embrace at lv 8, Snapping Turtle Clutch at lv 9 and leave Spell Sunder to lv 11?

2) Take Snapping Turtle Clutch at lv 9, Spell Sunder at lv 10 and Final Embrace at lv 11?

Or

3) Take Snapping Turtle Clutch at lv 9, Spell Sunder at lv 10 and Pinning Knockout at lv 11?

T_T Why did I not just make a pure combat build???

[Bruno Breakbone]

@secane: What is your AC unbuffed? Buffed? Raging?

Snapping Turtle Clutch for your build is predicated on having a decent-ish AC: you may get hit by the main attack but the iteratives will miss and trigger the Grapple attempt.

You would be taking Final Embrace primarily for Grab--which would grant you another +4 on your Grapple CMB and the fact that you can now turn your unarmed strike AOOs into grapple attempts. The constrict damage is piddling but it adds up once you get rapid grappler and get enlarged (or strong jawed).

Either of those choices would work. It depends on your play style.

L8) Fighter Bonus Feat: Final Embrace OR Snapping Turtle Clutch
L9) Witch Hunter rage power, L9 Feat: Extra Rage Power: Spell Sunder
L11) Unexpected Strike rage power, L11 Feat: Rapid Grappler

Why unexpected Strike? Another AOO opportunity to trigger an unarmed strike and then a grab from Final Embrace.

Anyways, how's the grappling been going in scenarios?

[Secane]

My current ac at lv 7 is 18-19. by lv 9 I should be able to get it to 20-21?

4 Mithrial chain Shirt +1 Brawling, + 2 dex + 1 ring of protection + 1 shield from turtle style.
Trying to decide if I should get an amulet of natural armor or a +2 Wis amulet.
Getting the Ioun stone for a +1 ac later. May just get the +2 Wis Ioun stone too...

It has been fun grappling. When it works, it is really good. Totally able to lock down a target, but there are times... when grapple is just not a good option. I feel like a watered-down Barbarian in those times... no power attack,etc.

I do notice my CMB is coming very close to my CMD, so much so that it is VERY easy for me to grapple someone, but it is not too hard for them to break out of it too. The +4 CMD from Falayna's Celestial Obedience really helps.

So with only 20-21 ac... should I even bother with Snapping Turtle Clutch?
I do feel I am not doing too good on the AC front. Enemies just keeps hitting better and I am rushing to catch up!

PS: Btw, saw your build... that is one VERY scary Tetori monk/Barbarian. You took Enlightened warrior trait?

[Grizzly the Archer]

There are items that will increase your CMB and your CMD.

Dusty rose prism ioun stone slotted into a Wayfinder, has a resonate ability of giving a +2 CMB/CMD.

Gauntlets of the skilled manuever Provide a +2 CMB bonus to one manuever of your choice at crafting.

Juggernaut pauldrons provide a flat +4 CMD bonus.

[Bruno Breakbone]

Your CMD should be:
10 base
+6 BAB
+5 STR (guessing)
+2 DEX
+2 Improved Grapple
+1 Turtle Style
+1 Ring

For a total of 27.

With your current CMD: at your level "monster CR = party APL" battles, melee-oriented monsters should probably escape 25% of the time. For party APL +3 CR melee-oriented monsters, that's probably closer to 50%. Lets tilt that more in your favor...

Before going any further, remember that "A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD. Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD. A flat-footed creature does not add its Dexterity bonus to its CMD." It's very easy to forget certain buffs add to your CMD.

Pauldrons Of The Serpent 3000 gp: +2 your CMD for several maneuvers (and a nice AOO AC boost)

Dusty Rose Ioun Stone (5000 gp) slotted into wayfinder: +1 Insight to AC/+2 insight to both CMB/CMD.

For 8k gold, you just boosted your Grapple CMD by 4. That's better than the WIS ioun stone.

At this point, I'd suggest backburnering turtle clutch as grab and spell sunder are on this particular character's to-do list.

Finally, for Bruno's history, Bruno was just regular old Tetori monk until he succumbed, repeaetdly, to Lissala's temptations in S4 of PFS. Bruno slipped from lawful neutral to true neutral and lost all his monkish discipline, becoming a brutal pugilist.

[Secane]

Thanks for all the advice Brother Bruno!

Wow! You actually became an EX-MONK?!?!?!? Totally impress! :D

Going to get Dusty Rose Ioun Stone once I get my Anaconda Coils.

Pauldrons Of The Serpent will have to wait, as I am going with a Cloak of Resistance instead. (I have low Reflex and mid Will saves.)

I guess Snapping Turtle Clutch will be pushed far to the back. (lv13?) All other options are better at the moment.

Thanks again for all the help!

Edit: Btw, do you have any advice on what kinds of ropes are good for grapplers?
I am using silk ropes at the moment, but wonder if there are ropes with great break DCs.
(My Barb Grappler is not as deadly as yours! Not so much damage, but lots of tying up!.)

[Secane]

Just realize I need a move action or to get a rope out for tie up... Anyone with any ideals how to speed this up?

Grapple with rope in one hand? Suffer the -4, but who cares!?!? :D

[CWheezy]

Bruno, what about the issue of not being able to add con and whatnot to anaconda coils? They seem great, until you face that limitation :/

[Bruno Breakbone]

@CWheezy
Bruno play PFS, so at L12, any game sessions would be few and far between and CON has not really been an issue. (But Bruno smart enough to pick Barbarian with the rage bonus to CON over Lore Warden.)

Bruno, as a grappler, is more often a skirmisher than a true front liner as tanky types and OMFGDPS step facefirst into the thick of combat. Bruno has "tanked" while buffed with Mage Armor and Bark Skin up, spending a Ki Point on AC for bad situations and Fight Defensively/Total Defense as needed (getting a grapple in on an opponent's miss thanks to Snapping Turtle Clutch). If HP is constantly an issue, you may have to re-evaluate your tactics or address a weakness.

Not the best answer, Bruno know.

@Secane
99% of GMs in PFS will not try to break out of the ropes in combat unless it is an obviously powerful monster that could easily do so. For monster like those, just pin them and keep them pinned so the DPS can focus fire the monster.

Expect major table variance regarding the ropes issue: some GMs will require you have the rope out while others will handwave. Address it pre-game with them. For those that require it, simply keep the ropes in hand and drop it as a free action if it's one of those big monsters...

[Secane]

I 'm getting a robe of Infinite Twine for quick roping. as for stronger monsters I am planning to get a mithral chain for that.

[Secane]

Bruno Breakbone wrote:

@secane: What is your AC unbuffed? Buffed? Raging?

Snapping Turtle Clutch for your build is predicated on having a decent-ish AC: you may get hit by the main attack but the iteratives will miss and trigger the Grapple attempt.

You would be taking Final Embrace primarily for Grab--which would grant you another +4 on your Grapple CMB and the fact that you can now turn your unarmed strike AOOs into grapple attempts. The constrict damage is piddling but it adds up once you get rapid grappler and get enlarged (or strong jawed).

Either of those choices would work. It depends on your play style.

L8) Fighter Bonus Feat: Final Embrace OR Snapping Turtle Clutch
L9) Witch Hunter rage power, L9 Feat: Extra Rage Power: Spell Sunder
L11) Unexpected Strike rage power, L11 Feat: Rapid Grappler

Why unexpected Strike? Another AOO opportunity to trigger an unarmed strike and then a grab from Final Embrace.

Anyways, how's the grappling been going in scenarios?

Hi Brother Bruno,

Just a late update. My VC and I have gone over this and we both realise that Grab needs a free action to trigger... As Unexpected Strike is usually done out of turn... I won't be able to use Grab.

So my plan now is to take another lv of inquisitor at lv 11 for more initiative via Wis or go on with Bar and take the Animal Fury rage power instead.

Thanks for all the help!