Every Pathfinder game i've been in uses 25 point-buy. Right now im playing a synthesist so it doesn't matter but i always take the time to make no stat below ten in 25-point buy.
I played in a month long game that was 25 point buy, with 18 as the upper limit. I enjoyed it a bit more as I prefer not having negatives in a stat. It was fun, not unbalancing, and everyone enjoyed it.
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I did 25 for shackles (no dumps, so pre-racial 10 min). The bottom line is it was too much; though I had players good at min-maxing. I ultimately regretted it a bit; the module assumes 25, so unless you advance things a bit many of the encounters will be trivialized. If I had it to do over I'd to 15 and allow dump stats or potentially 20 without. I figured 25 would encourage more MAD characters, but it just ended up with stronger SADs.
25 Point Buy makes more well rounded characters and allows MAD classes to not be behind the power curve compared to the SAD classes.
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From my experience, 15 point buy heavily favors classes that have just one ability score vital to their success (Wizards, Sorcerers, Witches). Everyone else tends more to mid-high range stats in one to two scores and abysmal scores in their other abilities. It makes true MAD classes (like the Monk) very difficult to build.
20-point buys are a little better as you afford to two scores in the 15-17 range, but still tends to have one or two 7s, 8s, or 9s.
With a 25-point buy, my players feel like they are heroes of legend. No one has to have a 7 or an 8 unless they want to have a 7 or an 8. And I am all about giving my players what they feel makes the game fun.
Master Arminas
The array I give my players is 25 point-buy, but with no stat above 16 or below 8 (before Racial mods). It gives a well-rounded, heroic character without needing much of a CR adjustment as compared to 15 point buy.
Exactly. One of the things I do in my game is only allowing ONE ability score to have a score of 8 or 9 (pre-racial); for the rest the minimum is 10. I too limit the maximum pre-racial score to 16. It works out well and makes for well-rounded solid characters who feel like heroes.
Master Arminas
Certain classes can get a lot out of a few attributes, but as long as you observe the hard max at 20 for character creation you should be fine.
You will, of course, expect to adjust APL by +1 when regarding what is challenging. Those 5 points add a lot of resources to the party, depending on the class makeup. 20 points (vs 15) doesn't really require an APL adjustment, but in my experience 25 pts is about +1 APL — although this changes over time.
25 point buy if you have tried it as a gm or player I want to hear what you thought.We usually use 15 point buys but for my next campaign(the shackles)I was thinking of using 25 point buys so everyone can invest in anutical skills and still do thier normal clases.
25 point buy works fine. Personally, I enjoy having well-rounded characters, so I like it. It also makes MAD classes like Monks a whole lot easier to stat out.
It IS a lot of points though.
Unless you want very high powered PCs I'd recommend limiting their ability to dump stats if you go with 25. Otherwise you may get someone playing a level 1 elven wizard with 20 Int, 18 Dex, 14 Con, and 7's in Str/Wis/Cha. Personally, I think that's kind of absurd.
We've got a house rule that you can only have a single 7 or two 8's (so, a -4 point cost limit on dump stats), which works out very well. It tends to create powerful, but still well rounded characters, while discouraging hyper-optimization. And the 25 points ensures that no one feels like they need to dump something. When we do its because of the concept, not because we need more points.
Even with 25-point buy, your MAD characters aren't going to be demi-gods walking the Earth.
For example, if I was building a monk with 25-point buy, my stats might look like this (pre-racial):
Str 14 (5 points), Dex 14 (5 points), Con 14 (5 points), Int 14 (5 points), Wis 14 (5 points), and Cha 10 (0 points). Simply put, because the monk, in particular, needs all five of those stats simply to be competitive.
If you don't limit dump stats, however, SAD classes can get out of hand very fast.
Master Arminas
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I guess the moral is if it somehow encourages MAD it's a good thing; if it takes SAD and makes sacrificing for that 20 not so challenging it's not (Which is what happened in my case). I think that 16 max 1-8 min (prevent Str/Chr or Int/Chr both being dumped) is optimal. That would make a 16-16-14-12-10-8 the standard, which seems slightly high but acceptable.
I'd say that in the end, whatever your group prefers and enjoys is the best choice to make, for character creation and everything else.
I think it works better if you are in a small party at low levels because of ability bonuses to certain skills and failed will save aginast sometihng like command hurts a lot more with fewer party members.
If you made me sit down and watch a game where people I knew were playing but you didn't show me thier character sheets, I doubt I could tell with much reliability what point buy they were using unless they were constantly referring to their stats. In terms of general feel however, I think that the extent to which different point buys affect the way the game feels is generally overblown. A lot of people use different point buys to try to make the game grittier, or more superheroic, but at the end of the day it's a few extra +1's here and there. Using a 25 point buy instead of a 15 point buy doesn't change the game from a game where the heros eke out their survival against desparate odds in a grimy world, always inches from death to a game where the players travel by leaping from the back of one dragon to another, stabbing them in the head as they go. You can run either kind of game with either point buy, and the small number of extra +1's that the characters have is barely even noticible, much less something that totally changes the tenor of the game. As people have mentioned, the primary effect of increasing the point buy (in my experience, at least) is that players tend to dumpstat less, and the fact that they often end up with and extra +1 int modifier means that the party's total available skill points rises, so more skills are covered more completely, typically.
I prefer 25-pb and dump stats.
I'm playing in a game where the GM gave us a 30 point buy. He gave several reasons; He wanted heros from level one (not the "everyman who eventually becomes a hero" trope), his world is almost magical healing free (no clerics or other divine casters, bards can't choose the "cure" spells, etc.), mages and magic items are quite rare. I can't say for sure about all the other characters, but NOT having a dump stat is quite nice. The monk in the party STILL ends up unconcious about once a day.
I'm playing in a Rise of the Runelords campaign with 25 pb. It's pretty nice actually. I'm about to kick off a custom campaign and am actually letting my players do 30 pb as I enjoy the above average stats of 4d6, drop lowest, but the fairness of point-buy.
25 PB is fine. If I should ever DM PF, I might actually go with 30 PB. Lower point buys just hurt the noncasters. As long as a caster can get an 18 in their primary stat, the rest is just gravy anyway, whether it's 15, 20, 25, or more PB. For the MAD classes, every little bit really does help, however. "High powered" games also make the martial classes look better in comparison to summons, animal companions, eidolons, etc... Which IMO is nothing but a good thing.
In my campaign the PC start with 10s in everything and have 18 points to add on a one-for-one basis. They're only allowed to lower a stat to 8 (pre-racial) and even then no more than two stats can have an 8. Like others I think a high point buy with restrictions on stat-dumping is best for producing well-rounded characters and helping MAD classes perform adequately.
I have to agree with HappyD. The smaller the point buy, the greater the power of the classes with pets.
Every system also has a way to exploit it. A crafty player will get a good character no matter what you drop in his lap for a buy and a good player will have an enjoyable character no matter what as well.
So in the end, it doesn't really matter to me. All it does is give me a perspective on the GM and the type of game they want to go with.
I use higher point buys, usually 25 or 30, when I GM. My group usually uses 20 (ergo, I don't usually GM).
My reasoning is that as a GM, I can modify encounters and daily structure all I want, so after I get a good gauge of the party's abilities, I can challenge them effectively, without outright killing them.
However, as a player, I am limited in my design choices with lower point buys. I am forced to accept mediocrity (in relation to other PCs) in areas where I would like to be superb, simply because I don't want to suffer in other areas.
Also, SADs have a very steep upward slope in terms of power in point buys, until they reach their hard cap on their important stat, at which point the slope inverts and goes downward at a steep rate. MADs have a more gradual upward slope that eventually begins to decline at a similar rate to the SADs. I've found 25 or 30 is around where the two slopes meet, though that's not based on any math - just anecdotal experience, so take it with a grain of salt.
I use higher point buys, usually 25 or 30, when I GM. My group usually uses 20 (ergo, I don't usually GM).
My reasoning is that as a GM, I can modify encounters and daily structure all I want, so after I get a good gauge of the party's abilities, I can challenge them effectively, without outright killing them.
However, as a player, I am limited in my design choices with lower point buys. I am forced to accept mediocrity (in relation to other PCs) in areas where I would like to be superb, simply because I don't want to suffer in other areas.
Also, SADs have a very steep upward slope in terms of power in point buys, until they reach their hard cap on their important stat, at which point the slope inverts and goes downward at a steep rate. MADs have a more gradual upward slope that eventually begins to decline at a similar rate to the SADs. I've found 25 or 30 is around where the two slopes meet, though that's not based on any math - just anecdotal experience, so take it with a grain of salt.
My experiences playing in PF and running and playing in 3E games with high point buys exactly matches your observations. Again, it really makes perfect sense when you think about it.
Also, as an example of just how negligible low PB is on a SAD class... take 10 PB, which is incredibly ridiculously low.
Human Wizard
Str 7, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 18 (20), Wis 7, Cha 7
Yup, that's 10 PB. The int costs 17, the dex 3, and con 2. +12 points from nuking the less important stats.
Seriously, high PB has a tiny effect on SAD classes, it's much more helpful to the MAD classes.
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See, I disagree. At 15 points, getting a 20 in any stat is just a stupid play; you have to have too many holes. Even at 20 I'd argue it's probably not worth it (Str + either Int or Chr are the default "dumps" for caster; which makes the 19/16/14/10/7/7 array most appealing).
At 25, the 20 is a no brained (20/16/14/10/7/7). At 30 you either have a 14 Wis or a 16 dex; rarely does that matter as much. The jump from 15 to 20 and 20 to 25 is far greater.
So no, it makes casters actually stronger moreso; suicide stat-dumpers get punished at lower point buys, and MADs don't gain the advantages we all think they do from high points.
But it is your playstyle; players generally like it better, but if you are playing pre-built APs, you'll find yourself having to adjust much less if you stick to 15. There again, if you're adjusting up there's not as much of a point; the players are the same relative to the world (and that can get dangerous).
the mod will be overwhelmed
your monk will have 2 7's and be awesome
your bard even more so
spells DCS will be really high
we have always played 25Pb, so next AP i run im going 15
In my experience the higher point buys seem to influence the play of the first 3-5 levels; After these early levels things seem to even out. As for influencing flavor, or "what just seems right" that is a matter of personal taste.
I use higher point buys, usually 25 or 30, when I GM. My group usually uses 20 (ergo, I don't usually GM).
My reasoning is that as a GM, I can modify encounters and daily structure all I want, so after I get a good gauge of the party's abilities, I can challenge them effectively, without outright killing them.
However, as a player, I am limited in my design choices with lower point buys. I am forced to accept mediocrity (in relation to other PCs) in areas where I would like to be superb, simply because I don't want to suffer in other areas.
Also, SADs have a very steep upward slope in terms of power in point buys, until they reach their hard cap on their important stat, at which point the slope inverts and goes downward at a steep rate. MADs have a more gradual upward slope that eventually begins to decline at a similar rate to the SADs. I've found 25 or 30 is around where the two slopes meet, though that's not based on any math - just anecdotal experience, so take it with a grain of salt.
Also note (with simplified math which is not always right but its good for examples):
18 to 20 casting attribute means:
+1 DC which means 5% more damage or effect
+1 1st level spell (which ceases to be useful in a few levels) and with statboosters 1 more 2nd and 1 more 3rd level spell (at higher levels)
+1 Skillpoint (maybe)
+1 on a save (maybe)
MADS:
+1 AC = 5% less damage
+1 to hit = 5% more damage
+1 to damage = roughly 5% more damage
+1 to at least one save
+1 HP/lvl
So while it may look broken whatever to give a wizard a possibly 20 on a stat it still means (of course assuming you disallow dumping) that he has 8 points left. Merely enough for a 14 on Con and a 13 on Dex. Which makes him not really better than a dumped to hell 15 pb wizard except that he has a 1 higher spell dc etc pp.
MADs on the other hand advance greatly with more points around. 25 means that you can have a 16(18 after racial) on your main stat while keeping two other stats at 14(or higher with racials) without having to dump everything into oblivion for it.
So I'd go for 25 pb any time of the day.
If your encounters end up to easy there are two easy steps:
1. Give the 1st HD full for every monster
2. Give them the simple advanced template but do not increase the CR
Those are two REALLY easy fixes which do not affect the mechanics or flavour of encounters (you are adding no monsters or leaving them out) but easily counter the player's superiority. Look at the Wizard again. It means every monster now has +2 on its save while the Wizard got +1 DC. So in terms of Spellcasting he didn't really win alot.
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Well, disallowing dumping it's fine; actually a disallowed dumping 25 point caster is less powerful than an allowed-dumping 20 point. I actually would go 19/14/14/12/10/10 on a no-dump Mage-type. Though not dumping hurts the Pally (Int, to a lesser extent Wis can be dumped) and Monk (Int and Chr) as much as any caster.
We've had that argument though; the conclusion is that a point gain tends to not change the dynamic between SAD and MAD; it just makes people more powerful. Which is less of a problem if you're not playing pre-boxed mods (as the OP is). There again Shackled is 3.5 and has to be updated anyway (a pain, but wasn't as bad as I thought it would be).
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Having DM'd both from a Paizo AP perspective, it is more DM work with 25 point buy to bring the AP up to a challenging level. The players are notably more powerful, and the APs are written for 15 point buy, not 25.
In the end it comes down to the feel you want, I find 25 points makes for less tension and more heroics as people have fewer weaknesses and more highs. Likewise 15 point makes people a little more fragile/nervous. We are doing Carrion Crown with 15 just to heighten the tension.
Even with 25-point buy, your MAD characters aren't going to be demi-gods walking the Earth.
For example, if I was building a monk with 25-point buy, my stats might look like this (pre-racial):
Str 14 (5 points), Dex 14 (5 points), Con 14 (5 points), Int 14 (5 points), Wis 14 (5 points), and Cha 10 (0 points). Simply put, because the monk, in particular, needs all five of those stats simply to be competitive.
If you don't limit dump stats, however, SAD classes can get out of hand very fast.
Right.I suggest a compromise. 25 pt buy but you can’t buy down stats below 10. (Racial modifiers might still bring down a stat to 8).
25 point buy,
max stat 18 (incl racial)....is kewl
now there go some well rounded characters
In my experience, the difference between a 20 point buy and a 25 point buy is that one stat goes from a 14 to a 16 (or something like that). An extra +1 modifier on one stat (or even an extra +1 modifier to two stats) is practically unnoticeable.
We do 25 point buy in our game. No specific restrictions, but most of the players have 10 as their lowest stat.
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Anyone that wants to complain about a 25pt buy, remember the old standard use to be 4d6 - lowest. That is a 14pt/stat average. So a 30 point effective buy.
The way we do it is to get the player some options. If you want to start with 15pts, then you get a free 1st level feat. If you want to start with 25pts, then you lose your 1st level feat. No change for 20pts. Seems to work for us.