Hi all.
An Elven Magus is turned into a vampire at level 5. He secretly plots against his master and around level 8 he is able to have him killed by a group of adventurers. He is now free to roam the world once again.
At class level 10 he decides that already being an undead, he wouldn't mind boosting his power even further by becomming a lich. Going through the motions he gathers the ressources, crafts the phylactery and when he hits level 11, he goes through the transformation. He is now a Vampiric Lich.
The things I ponder:
1) Could the transformation into a lich end his need to feed on blood?
2) Would the tranformation into a lich affect his sensibility to sunlight?
3) Would draining the blood of something living regenerate him for a while, thus hiding him being a Lich? And would this rekindle his allergy to sunlight?
4) Would he still be able to create vampires and spawn?
Looking forward to your ideas :)
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Nope.
Creating a Lich
“Lich” is an acquired template that can be added to any living creature...
Undead are not considered to be alive.
As a GM i would allow it .. kick everything (!) from the vampire template and then add everything from the lich template.
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At class level 10 he decides that already being an undead, he wouldn't mind boosting his power even further by becomming a lich.
“Lich” is an acquired template that can be added to any living creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature), provided it can create the required phylactery.
By RAW, a Vampire is dead, and cannot become a lich. For the sake of argument, let us continue.
1) Could the transformation into a lich end his need to feed on blood?
2) Would the tranformation into a lich affect his sensibility to sunlight?
3) Would draining the blood of something living regenerate him for a while, thus hiding him being a Lich? And would this rekindle his allergy to sunlight?
4) Would he still be able to create vampires and spawn?
1) End its need? It never *needed* blood, it just hungered for it. And I doubt Lichdom would enable it to overcome that hunger. (Other than the bump to Wisdom that would give it a +1 to Will saves.
2&3)By RAW, no.4) I don't see why not!
Since we're throwing RAW out the window at the beginning of the exercise, I think its an interesting idea for the monster to be unique. I like the idea that draining blood restores it to a semi-living state, walking around as a fragile or sickly noble during the day, until "the heat of the sun becomes too much for him", but returning to an obviously undead monstrosity at night. I like the idea of the heroes opening up a coffin to stake the vampire, only to discover a dessicated corpse. They continue to search for the vampire, while the lich rises and attacks while their backs are turned!
Keep the not appearing in mirrors, though, need to let your players figure it out. ^_~
Good luck!
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At class level 10 he decides that already being an undead, he wouldn't mind boosting his power even further by becomming a lich.“Lich” is an acquired template that can be added to any living creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature), provided it can create the required phylactery.By RAW, a Vampire is dead, and cannot become a lich. For the sake of argument, let us continue.
1) Could the transformation into a lich end his need to feed on blood?
2) Would the tranformation into a lich affect his sensibility to sunlight?
3) Would draining the blood of something living regenerate him for a while, thus hiding him being a Lich? And would this rekindle his allergy to sunlight?
4) Would he still be able to create vampires and spawn?1) End its need? It never *needed* blood, it just hungered for it. And I doubt Lichdom would enable it to overcome that hunger. (Other than the bump to Wisdom that would give it a +1 to Will saves.
2&3)By RAW, no.
4) I don't see why not!Since we're throwing RAW out the window at the beginning of the exercise, I think its an interesting idea for the monster to be unique. I like the idea that draining blood restores it to a semi-living state, walking around as a fragile or sickly noble during the day, until "the heat of the sun becomes too much for him", but returning to an obviously undead monstrosity at night. I like the idea of the heroes opening up a coffin to stake the vampire, only to discover a dessicated corpse. They continue to search for the vampire, while the lich rises and attacks while their backs are turned!
Keep the not appearing in mirrors, though, need to let your players figure it out. ^_~Good luck!
I agree here, this would be a good way to make a really cool unique creature. You should do it, and post what you come up with as far as abilities! I might want to use it in one of my games myself!
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I like the idea of a vampire lich. Heck, I'd just straight up add the lich template on top of the vampire template (maybe just taking the higher of the two numbers if they overlap anywhere) to create an extremely brutal monster.
But yeah, I'd say he should keep all the vampire weaknesses; except he still couldn't be killed without destroying his phylactery. That would make for an awesome twist after they get him staked, for him to come right back 1d10 days later...:)
Geshko (sir): Thanks! The last part was the kind of answer I was looking for. I'd forgotten about the mirror-thing, thanks for the reminder. And the eternal hunger for blood could be made quite disturbing combined with his general physical appearance, thank you :)
I'm going to use him as the BBEG (of course), for my desert campaign. He's a some millenia old, but he's been in suspended animation for a few centuries due to a minor mishab with some adventurers and a holy ritual designed to destroy him. But now his followers (vampires and other undead) has found him and is bringing him back to continue his plans.
I was considering him being rather weak in the beginning due to that pesky ritual having drained much of his power, but as he regains his strength (by feeding on a captive dragon), he will return to his former glory. Ruleswise he starts out "only" having his stat bonuses and the lich's negative energy touch with a few lowered resistances and no immunities, and of course standard undead things such as darkvision. And then as the party advance in level, he will regain more and more abilities, making him the eternal foe that they can confront again and again and again ... and again :)
cartmanbeck: I can come back with a description of him at his lowered powerlevel after the party has had their first encounter with him, though that will take another two or three weeks ... there's no need to rush it, they need to find the facechanging imperials who framed them before they even hear his name ;) And I can't risk them getting too much info, at least one of them prowls these forums...
But for now; thanks for the replies - even the less enthusiastic ones ;)
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He can always get oneself killed, resurrected and being alive again start the research into lichdom. Or have GM that makes him into unique monstrosity as mentioned previously.
BTW: Magus may be interested in becoming vampire graveknight instead of vampire lich, if such unique undead hybrids are considered at all. Well, even transformation from vampire to grave knight instead of lich could have some merits to him.
pretty sure you also normally need to be caster level 11 for litch don't you?
Normally im pretty sure you do, but its not unprecedented to have "lost" much of your power from being in a long state of inactivity. One of Paizo's BBEG does that. Not saying which due to my lack of knowledge to make spoiler tags. but is has happened before.
Yes, but those liches don't have access to their phylactery until they get back to level 11.
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I have to ask what you are trying to get out of making him a Draculich. If you just want the rebuilding benefits of a phylactery I think you could come up with another mechanism for that.
A suggestion:
He has found a rebirthing artifact of evil power shaped like a cauldron. When filled with the blood of innocents (initial plot hook missing people from local village) an other mystical items and the vampire bathes in the cauldron of blood then he can link himself to the artifact and gains extra powers. In this case if he is destroyed the cauldron will regenerate him.
One day he tries an experiment and mixes in the blood of an ogre baby. He finds it make him stronger (+2 Str) plus previous effects. So he tries other monsters and finds new effects and mixtures. Each time he dies he comes back looking a little different. More muscle from the ogre and even faster healing when he uses troll blood also gives him a greenish tint.
After a few death/regeneration cycles he does not even look like how he started but the PCs recognize him as they have seen all his incremental changes.
When the finally defeat him then they still have to deal with the ancient artifact of evil before he regenerates again. But by this time the vampire has discovered how to control where he regenerates. Maybe he tries to steal the cauldron back.
I have to ask what you are trying to get out of making him a Draculich. If you just want the rebuilding benefits of a phylactery I think you could come up with another mechanism for that.
A suggestion:
He has found a rebirthing artifact of evil power shaped like a cauldron. When filled with the blood of innocents (initial plot hook missing people from local village) an other mystical items and the vampire bathes in the cauldron of blood then he can link himself to the artifact and gains extra powers. In this case if he is destroyed the cauldron will regenerate him.
One day he tries an experiment and mixes in the blood of an ogre baby. He finds it make him stronger (+2 Str) plus previous effects. So he tries other monsters and finds new effects and mixtures. Each time he dies he comes back looking a little different. More muscle from the ogre and even faster healing when he uses troll blood also gives him a greenish tint.
After a few death/regeneration cycles he does not even look like how he started but the PCs recognize him as they have seen all his incremental changes.
When the finally defeat him then they still have to deal with the ancient artifact of evil before he regenerates again. But by this time the vampire has discovered how to control where he regenerates. Maybe he tries to steal the cauldron back.
I like the suggestion, but it doesn't fit the setting, nor the personality of the villian. I'll keep it in mind for later though, perhaps an alchemist who uses the method for enhancing his mutagenic form... :)
What I want from the character is a dried out - almost mummified - elf with a thirst for blood, very few weaknesses and a lot of magical an melee power that I can reduce as needed for the earlier stages of the encounters.
He's a researcher, planner and allround background plotter, with a barely suppressed need to prove his physical superiority and a willingness to "die" by his enemy's hand to gain insight into his tactics. He's neither insane, stupid or vengeful.
I choose the Lich because it fits the physical image I'm going for quite nicely and it has the "undead mastermind" feel that fits the character. The reason for his vampirism is to be found in his background and may become relevant in relation to countering some of his minions.
Stay good :)
But for now; thanks for the replies - even the less enthusiastic ones ;)I just want to point out that you asked this in the rules forum. Not the general forum. Hence why you got "Can't be done" answers.
I stand chastised and appropriately ashamed for my error. Please find it in your hearts to forgive me for this transgression, I shall strive to post in the correct forum in the future ;)
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I have to ask what you are trying to get out of making him a Draculich. If you just want the rebuilding benefits of a phylactery I think you could come up with another mechanism for that.
A suggestion:
He has found a rebirthing artifact of evil power shaped like a cauldron. When filled with the blood of innocents (initial plot hook missing people from local village) an other mystical items and the vampire bathes in the cauldron of blood then he can link himself to the artifact and gains extra powers. In this case if he is destroyed the cauldron will regenerate him.
One day he tries an experiment and mixes in the blood of an ogre baby. He finds it make him stronger (+2 Str) plus previous effects. So he tries other monsters and finds new effects and mixtures. Each time he dies he comes back looking a little different. More muscle from the ogre and even faster healing when he uses troll blood also gives him a greenish tint.
After a few death/regeneration cycles he does not even look like how he started but the PCs recognize him as they have seen all his incremental changes.
When the finally defeat him then they still have to deal with the ancient artifact of evil before he regenerates again. But by this time the vampire has discovered how to control where he regenerates. Maybe he tries to steal the cauldron back.
I like the suggestion, but it doesn't fit the setting, nor the personality of the villian. I'll keep it in mind for later though, perhaps an alchemist who uses the method for enhancing his mutagenic form... :)
What I want from the character is a dried out - almost mummified - elf with a thirst for blood, very few weaknesses and a lot of magical an melee power that I can reduce as needed for the earlier stages of the encounters.
He's a researcher, planner and allround background plotter, with a barely suppressed need to prove his physical superiority and a willingness to "die" by his enemy's hand to gain insight into his tactics. He's neither...
Sounds like Draculich is the way to go. The villain is aware that he will regenerate and maybe the regeneration helps him shake off some of his weakness so he actually wants to be killed over and over again. He could even taunt the PCs with it "If you strike me down I become stronger than you could ever imagine".
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The answer is by RAW no, but if you need a bad guy for your PCs to fight, have at it and change the rules as you need to. Have him drinking blood (make it even more necessary; thus prompting the PCs to act. The raw, inhumane slaughter from this new abomination destroyed an entire village).
Never let those stupid "rules" get in the way of a good plot line :).
Sounds like Draculich is the way to go. The villain is aware that he will regenerate and maybe the regeneration helps him shake off some of his weakness so he actually wants to be killed over and over again. He could even taunt the PCs with it "If you strike me down I become stronger than you could ever imagine".
I am not familiar with this Draculich. And while the name is (hopefully) self-explanatory, I would like to know more.
Where can I find it? :)
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Sounds like Draculich is the way to go. The villain is aware that he will regenerate and maybe the regeneration helps him shake off some of his weakness so he actually wants to be killed over and over again. He could even taunt the PCs with it "If you strike me down I become stronger than you could ever imagine".I am not familiar with this Draculich. And while the name is (hopefully) self-explanatory, I would like to know more.
Where can I find it? :)
LOL I think Rocket Surgeon just made up that name for what you're trying to do... Dracula fused with Lich. :-P
What I want from the character is a dried out - almost mummified - elf with a thirst for blood, very few weaknesses and a lot of magical an melee power that I can reduce as needed for the earlier stages of the encounters.
He's a researcher, planner and allround background plotter, with a barely suppressed need to prove his physical superiority and a willingness to "die" by his enemy's hand to gain insight into his tactics. He's neither insane, stupid or vengeful.I choose the Lich because it fits the physical image I'm going for quite nicely and it has the "undead mastermind" feel that fits the character. The reason for his vampirism is to be found in his background and may become relevant in relation to countering some of his minions.
Stay good :)
One published adventure has a brain-eating lich. Not because he has any need to eat brains (unlike his zombie minions), but simply because he finds them tasty. You could just have a lich that likes to drink blood, without actually being a vampire.
Please don't take this as a dodge of your question, as I don't mean it to be but.. seriously.
Can the templates stack?
If you want them to- then they stack. If not, not. You can do whatever you want to do in order to achieve the challenge and mystery and integrity of the game.
Keep in mind that yuor PC's will never see "Bob the Magus 5 Race: Human/Vampire/Lich"
to them, all the dude is is a collection of stats and whatever RP you give them for him.
"omg dude, he sucked her blood, that sterrible, get the stakes"
then later "how'd he survive" and they research and found out about the phylactery and are suitably confused and awed about it and go about trying to kill the guy.
"what was that" they dunno.. You don't answer. ever. *they don't know* and thats just awesome.
The most memorable villain I ever fought in any campaign was some oddly-powered guy in black full plate wielding a scythe.. We never Did figure out what that guy was.. and it was awesome.. and that was over 10 years ago.
You posted in the rules thread- so the answers you got were well deserved :) but really, when you are making a critter don't let the rules get in the way of an awesome concept.
The answer to all of your questions is really "sure, if you think it'll help make him awesome (but not unbeatable) and help take some of the "I've fought these 200 times in the last 20 years, this is a cake walk" out of your Players.
Also: don't discount the simple act of making a vampire *look* like a Lich.
Don't make him become flush when he drinks, make him look dried up and dissicated like .. well, like an old corpse. maybe he drains intelligence instead of blood from his victims or something. he leaves whole corpses with dried up brains (let the PC's figure -that- one out!) his body is dried up and yucky while his brain lives on, strong from the juices he sucks from his victims or something.
Be creative.. don't let the rules get in the way :)
-S
Just have an attractive Lich that sparkles in the sunlight. Problem solved.
[sarcasm ] +1 This is a really awesome suggestion! :D[/sarcasm]
It really shouldn't matter, your hybrid creature actually sounds feasible. Heck go with it, I'd certainly be impressed with the concept regardless of the RAW.
Just have an attractive Lich that sparkles in the sunlight. Problem solved.
This actually makes me cry a litte inside ;_;
To the rest of you: Thanks for the replies. I'm going ahead as planned, but some of your ideas was really interesting - such as the braindrain Lich, so I'll grab those for later, possibly even for some really cool minions :)
When a suitably unique event occurs in a game (during play or behind the scenes), or if a character (PC or NPC) puts a LOT of effort and research into something, well, in a world of magic and gods, ANYTHING is possible.
In the Savage Tide AP, a major foe goes from human, to half-fiend, to half-fiend deathknight (or graveknight, if you prefer). An npc in the path actually comments on his concerns that the big bad of the story has figured out how to make fiends into deathknights, and how this is a big scary deal.
There is a similar lich half-fiend in Shackled City.
Advanced Bestiary, which Paizo uses a lot, has a template for a werecreature that is anything roughly humanoid for the base creature, with the shifted creature being just about anything at all. The example is a teifling who turns into a hell-hound. But you could have a medusa who turns into a gorgon, or a babau demon who turns into a gelatinous cube.
The rules merely exist as a framework and guidelines for you to run a fair and relatively balanced game. As such, some of those rules are limiters to prevent certain things from getting out of hand. But that doesn't mean you can't deliberately remove those limiters for a rare or unique encounter that will be memorable for your PCs.
Just ask my Kingmaker group about the 12 headed Pyro-Cryo-Hydra Rogue 2 they fought that could give itself flanking via its own heads, and used Evasion by sacrificing its own heads to block incoming effects prematurely, only to regenerate them instantly.